90mm f8 vs 5.6

[Ben]

can someone who has used a good dark cloth comment if there's a significant brightness difference between them when focusing on GG?

without a dark cloth, the difference I find is significant especially under dim lighting conditions.

the issue is not focusing, but composing the image.

[BrianShaw]

I’ve only used a 5.6 and it’s bright. Quite a bit brighter than when it is stopped down to f/8. The downside is that it’s big and heavy.

[Ben]

I’ve only used a 5.6 and it’s bright. Quite a bit brighter than when it is stopped down to f/8. The downside is that it’s big and heavy.

And you were under a dark cloth? I know the brightness difference without a dark cloth, I have several f8's and f5.6's.

[xkaes]

I've always used WOOD HOODS that have elastic bands around the camera and my head. Even in bright SUNLIGHT, I've found my f8.0, f9.0, and even f12.0 lens bright enough. Without a dark cloth, of some sort, even my f4.5 lens is impossible to use.

[BrianShaw]

And you were under a dark cloth? I know the brightness difference without a dark cloth, I have several f8's and f5.6's.

I mean a real dark cloth, not one of those terrible one's made by harrison.

Yes, I always use a dark cloth to focus on ground glass. Not sure what you mean by a “real” dark cloth though. Mine make it dark so they should be considered real.

[BrianShaw]

And going back to the first post… I think most folks would say that brightness is more important for focusing than composing. What are you finding difficult when composing?

[Kiwi7475]

This is a trick question. If you’re trying to compose near sunrise for example then 5.6 makes a big difference even under a good dark cloth, particularly to see the full screen. At f8 it’s hard to see near the corners in particular. I’ve found myself for example seeing the composition doesn’t quite work after more light is available because I didn’t see everything well enough with an f8 lens. So for those occasions I bring my 5.6 90mm. Also helps focusing. For normal bright conditions, I bring the f8 which is lighter and more compact.

[Ben]

Yes, I always use a dark cloth to focus on ground glass. Not sure what you mean by a “real” dark cloth though. Mine make it dark so they should be considered real.

I mean a hooded dark cloth that blocks out stray to create a true darkened environment, so that your eyes adjusts accordingly to the level on the GG. One could speculate that once your eyes adjusts properly, the light hitting the GG becomes less of a factor.

There are other dark cloths, such as the one made by harrison. The harrison goes over the entire camera using velcro, so it does not create a true darkened envoriment.

[abruzzi]

I've used both in Super Angulon form and yeah, the ƒ5.6 is brighter, but the ƒ8 is plenty bright for focusing (in the environments I use.) And this is with a Black Jacket or Harrison dark cloth.

[BrianShaw]

Ben, you might want to start a separate thread on dark cloths. Many use a trade flat cloth very effectively.

[Two23]

I just use a jacket for a dark cloth. Works fine. During the day I have no trouble focusing with an f8 lens. At night or in very low light I do notice increased difficulty. If you mostly only photo during the day I don't think it's going to matter. As for my jacket, I simply gather it tightly around the back of the camera if needed. I'm too cheap to spend money on a dark cloth.


Kent in SD

[r.e.]

I'm willing to bet that there are a few dozen threads in which people are asked whether they think that f/8 works as well as f/5.6 for composing and focusing. Invariably, the answers are all over the map. I think that it depends on your eyesight, your technique, the lighting conditions under which you make photographs, how heavy a lens you're prepared to use and how much money you're prepared to spend. Personally, of the 11 lenses that I own, the only one with a maximum aperture smaller than f/6.8 is a Fujinon C 600mm. That tells you my priorities. Yours may be different :)

[Drew Wiley]

Darkcloths etc have been discussed many times before. One common sense trick is to wear sunglasses until you're under the cloth. For indoor architectural shots I wisely opted for a 90/4.5 SW. Outdoors, depends. I don't like any kind of fresnel or screen "brightener".

[r.e.]

If the question is really about the efficiency of different kinds of dark cloths, there's a reasonable argument for dark cloths that block light reflected from the ground. There are a few designs of this type. I happen to like Paramo's dark cloth, and wrote about it in this thread: Paramo/Joe Cornish Dark Cloth (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164624-Paramo-Joe-Cornish-Dark-Cloth)

The thread includes a video of Joe Cornish showing how the dark cloth works.

[Ben]

If the question is really about the efficiency of different kinds of dark cloths, there's a reasonable argument for dark cloths that block light reflected from the ground. There are a few designs of this type. I happen to like Paramo's dark cloth, and wrote about it in this thread: Paramo/Joe Cornish Dark Cloth (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164624-Paramo-Joe-Cornish-Dark-Cloth)

The thread includes a video of Joe Cornish showing how the dark cloth works.

That's the type of "hooded" dark cloth I was referring to. Blocking reflected light from the ground IMO is essential. The Paramo looks perfect, too bad they're out of stock.

The reason we're discussing dark cloths on the thread is that the question of f8 and f5.6 is somewhat related to what dark cloth you use. A good dark cloth will darken the environment to the point that your eyes adjust accordingly.

I personally never found it that difficult to focus in dim conditions using a loupe, but framing can be challenging, especially seeing the corners during a sunset or dusk shot.

Shooting in dusk, dawn or magic hour, I find that my 65mm 5.6 is considerably brighter than my 90mm f8, but again I don't have a proper dark cloth, which is why I'm asking out in the forum.

I'm aware that the 90mm f8 is much smaller than the 90mm f5.6.

[neil poulsen]

For a 90mm, there are multiple relevant considerations. Movements, ground glass brightness, and size and weight. There was a time when I was interested in doing interior, architectural photography. So despite the additional weight and size, I had a 90mm f5.6 lens which enhances both ground glass brightness and image circle.

Currently, my primary interests are exterior architecture, landscape, and fine art photography. So, weight and size are important considerations. In subsequent readings, I found out that a 90mm f6 lens gives one nice sharpness, and the same image circle as my f5.6 Super Angulon. I don't really need ground glass brightness, so I can opt for less weight and less size in this lens. Yet, I still get the sharpness and the same image circle of my former f5.6 optic.

Why would you not use a dark cloth?

[Michael R]

My short focal length lenses (90mm and 72mm) are both f/5.6 and I find it difficult to see beyond the center in low light (which is usually the condition I’m shooting under). If I were going back in time I might have chosen the Rodenstock equivalents at f/4.5 :) - not that it would make any real difference for me. I can set up/frame ok, but focusing, forget it. I have to use laser pointers. Or whenever possible I try to actually figure it all out under brighter conditions and then make the exposures later.

This is just to balance the thread with the worst case scenario. I’m just not good at seeing the ground glass. It was always difficult for me. Maybe it’s partially because I also do a lot of 35mm photography - so much easier to see in the dark.


That's the type of "hooded" dark cloth I was referring to. Blocking reflected light from the ground IMO is essential. The Paramo looks perfect, too bad they're out of stock.

The reason we're discussing dark cloths on the thread is that the question of f8 and f5.6 is somewhat related to what dark cloth you use. A good dark cloth will darken the environment to the point that your eyes adjust accordingly.

I personally never found it that difficult to focus in dim conditions using a loupe, but framing can be challenging, especially seeing the corners during a sunset or dusk shot.

Shooting in dusk, dawn or magic hour, I find that my 65mm 5.6 is considerably brighter than my 90mm f8, but again I don't have a proper dark cloth, which is why I'm asking out in the forum.

I'm aware that the 90mm f8 is much smaller than the 90mm f5.6.

[Doremus Scudder]

Ben,

See my last post in your other thread too.

My take on how to deal with low-light situations is to get a good dark cloth and give your eyes time to adjust to the darkness. Most people have really good vision in low light if they just let their eyes adjust.

I work without a darkcloth with many lenses in regular daylight, but in low light situations, especially when using my f/8-f/9 lenses (which I have a lot of since I like light (weight) more than I like bright), I drag out the darkcloth. Mine has Velcro all around so I can fasten it around the camera and under me, giving me an almost totally dark environment. If you have a darkcloth that will do that for you, and give yourself 5-10 minutes to adjust, you should be able to easily see an image from an f/8 lens in anything but the dimmest light (or if you have cataracts that are well-advanced).

If you're asking this because you're deciding if an f/8 lens will suit your needs, get out your darkcloth, find a low-light situations, set up your camera with widest lenses, stop them down to f/8 and crawl under the darkcloth for a while and see for yourself. That should give you a good idea.

FWIW, I made exposures in extreme low-light situations (think 20+-minute exposures) for which I only looked at my ground glass for a second or two with the loupe to make sure one or two things were in focus. With a view camera, you can do most of the composing and choosing of lens focal length away from the camera.

Best,

Doremus

[r.e.]

Further to Doremus's comments in this and the other thread about composing independently of the camera's ground glass...

I don't know Doremus's technique, but I'm sold on the app Artist's Viewfinder. If you have an iPhone 11 or later, the phone's wide angle lens will get the job done for short focal lengths; otherwise you'll need a supplementary lens for the phone. I don't know if there is an Android equivalent. See this thread: What Scouting/Planning Apps Are You Using in 2021? (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164815-What-Scouting-Planning-Apps-Are-You-Using-in-2021)

[ic-racer]

I have never used a dark cloth with 4x5, I use just the fold out hood and a long-reach focus loupe. But all my lenses are 5.6. I'm not sure if I could get away with not using a dark cloth with slower lenses.

[Ben]

Ben,

See my last post in your other thread too.

My take on how to deal with low-light situations is to get a good dark cloth and give your eyes time to adjust to the darkness. Most people have really good vision in low light if they just let their eyes adjust.

I work without a darkcloth with many lenses in regular daylight, but in low light situations, especially when using my f/8-f/9 lenses (which I have a lot of since I like light (weight) more than I like bright), I drag out the darkcloth. Mine has Velcro all around so I can fasten it around the camera and under me, giving me an almost totally dark environment. If you have a darkcloth that will do that for you, and give yourself 5-10 minutes to adjust, you should be able to easily see an image from an f/8 lens in anything but the dimmest light (or if you have cataracts that are well-advanced).

If you're asking this because you're deciding if an f/8 lens will suit your needs, get out your darkcloth, find a low-light situations, set up your camera with widest lenses, stop them down to f/8 and crawl under the darkcloth for a while and see for yourself. That should give you a good idea.

FWIW, I made exposures in extreme low-light situations (think 20+-minute exposures) for which I only looked at my ground glass for a second or two with the loupe to make sure one or two things were in focus. With a view camera, you can do most of the composing and choosing of lens focal length away from the camera.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks Doremus. This is good advice.

[Ben]

Further to Doremus's comments in this and the other thread about composing independently of the camera's ground glass...

I don't know Doremus's technique, but I'm sold on the app Artist's Viewfinder. If you have an iPhone 11 or later, the phone's wide angle lens will get the job done for short focal lengths; otherwise you'll need a supplementary lens for the phone. I don't know if there is an Android equivalent. See this thread: What Scouting/Planning Apps Are You Using in 2021? (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164815-What-Scouting-Planning-Apps-Are-You-Using-in-2021)

Yes, I'm familiar with Artemis, but saying that we must compose independently of the camera's ground glass is ridiculous.
We need to see what we're doing, otherwise what's the point of using a view camera.

[xkaes]

We all have to roughly compose each picture at first. And that can take some time. How else would we know where to put the tripod? But 99% of the time, I end up moving the tripod, to at least some degree -- up, down, left, right, forward, back -- AFTER I look at the ground glass. And LOTS of times, I end up changing the lens, too -- which usually means moving the tripod again. Rinse and repeat.

Now that I think about it, it's amazing that I've actually been able to take ANY pictures!

[Ben]

We all have to roughly compose each picture at first. And that can take some time. How else would we know where to put the tripod? But 99% of the time, I end up moving the tripod, to at least some degree -- up, down, left, right, forward, back -- AFTER I look at the ground glass. And LOTS of times, I end up changing the lens, too -- which usually means moving the tripod again. Rinse and repeat.

Now that I think about it, it's amazing that I've actually been able to take ANY pictures!

Can we please stop talking about artemis and go back to getting a usable image on the GG :cool:

[r.e.]

Yes, I'm familiar with Artemis, but saying that we must compose independently of the camera's ground glass is ridiculous.
We need to see what we're doing, otherwise what's the point of using a view camera.

Neither I nor Doremus said that you "must" compose independently of the ground glass. I don't know how Doremus does it, but some people, myself among them, find a director's viewfinder invaluable and a significant timesaver. I started using one for video, where it is pretty much essential if you're working with other people. It's called a director's viewfinder for a reason. I'm now using it with 4x5 and 8x10. I can see the framing for different focal lengths immediately, and record views as photographs if I'm scouting a location or want to try out various ways to frame the subject. I want to use the ground glass for fine tuning. I find this an efficient way to work. You may not.

[Ben]

Neither I nor Doremus said that you "must" compose independently of the ground glass. Some people, myself among them, find a director's viewfinder invaluable and a significant timesaver. I started using one for video, where it is pretty much essential if you're working with other people. I'm now using it with 4x5 and 8x10. I can see the framing for different focal lengths immediately, and record views as photographs if I'm scouting a location or want to try out various ways to frame the subject. I find this extremely useful. You may not.

I hate to police the thread, but...

The question is about the GG using a f8 vs 5.6 lens in dim lighting conditions.

[r.e.]

I hate to police the thread, but...

The question is about the GG using a f8 vs 5.6 lens in dim lighting conditions.

What? I was following up on a point that Doremus made both in this thread and your related thread, and was responding to your own post. If you don't want people to respond to what you say, maybe let people know in advance :)

[BrianShaw]

I hate to police the thread, but...

The question is about the GG using a f8 vs 5.6 lens in dim lighting conditions.

It’s your thread but just like discussion of dark cloths, the topic of ease-of-focus and ease-of-composing was in the initial discussion. Composing is done, both, with eyes and on the GG. The brightness between 2 different stops, frankly, isn’t much to discuss. :)

[Ben]

What? I was following up on a point that Doremus made both in this thread and your related thread, and was responding to your own post. If you don't want people to respond to what you say, maybe let people know in advance :)

I was responding to a post you made which was off-topic. Trying to stick to the OP topic.

Doremus's post was on point.

[Ben]

It’s your thread but just like discussion of dark cloths, the topic of ease-of-focus and ease-of-composing was in the initial discussion. Composing is done, both, with eyes and on the GG. The brightness between 2 different stops, frankly, isn’t much to discuss. :)

The dark cloth is relevant because a good dark cloth should help your eyes adjust to the GG. The question is, with a good dark cloth and allowing eyes to adjust, is there a discernible difference between a f8 and f5.6 lens under dim lighting conditions?

[r.e.]

I was responding to a post you made which was off-topic. Trying to stick to the OP topic.

Doremus's post was on point.

Excuse me, but who do you think you are? You start two threads that have so much overlap that they might as well have been one. I offer a detailed, polite response to your own post, and you start dictating what I can and can't talk about. In all the years that I've been on this site, I've not seen anything like this. Seriously, who do you think that you are that you talk to people like this?

[Alan Klein]

Further to Doremus's comments in this and the other thread about composing independently of the camera's ground glass...

I don't know Doremus's technique, but I'm sold on the app Artist's Viewfinder. If you have an iPhone 11 or later, the phone's wide angle lens will get the job done for short focal lengths; otherwise you'll need a supplementary lens for the phone. I don't know if there is an Android equivalent. See this thread: What Scouting/Planning Apps Are You Using in 2021? (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164815-What-Scouting-Planning-Apps-Are-You-Using-in-2021)

I use my digital P&S camera set to display BW. I locate where I want to take the picture looking through the viewfinder or LED display and then zoom into the right framing. That tells me what 4x5 lens I need. I drop something on the ground to mark the spot and then set up my tripod there. Frankly, I don't like LF looking upside down. So this method works for me. I also use the digital camera as an exposure meter. But that's a different story.

[BrianShaw]

The dark cloth is relevant because a good dark cloth should help your eyes adjust to the GG. The question is, with a good dark cloth and allowing eyes to adjust, is there a discernible difference between a f8 and f5.6 lens under dim lighting conditions?

Yes.

And yes using a “mediocre” dark cloth too.

A totally different question would be, “is a f/5.6 lens needed rather than a f/8 lens?”

[Oren Grad]

I hate to police the thread...

So please don't. It's natural for threads is to drift a bit as people offer a variety of sort-of-related ideas in an effort to be helpful.


The question is about the GG using a f8 vs 5.6 lens in dim lighting conditions.

I think everyone understood your question. The answer, which is reflected in the comments so far, is that sensitivity to GG brightness and tolerance for dim viewing varies considerably among photographers. So the only way to know for sure what will work best for you is to try the alternatives - whether it be a more effective dark cloth or a faster lens - for yourself.

[xkaes]

Neither I nor Doremus said that you "must" compose independently of the ground glass. I don't know how Doremus does it, but some people, myself among them, find a director's viewfinder invaluable and a significant timesaver.

I use a similar approach. I took an 8x10" gray card, and cut a 4x5" rectangle in the middle. I turn the 4x5" rectangle into a flap with a piece of transparent tape -- and can still use the card for metering. I similarly attached a Kodak gelatin B&W viewing filter over the hole. I move the card forward and back to estimate the perspective I want. When I find it, the distance from my eye quickly tells me what focal length lens to start with. Saves a lot of time.

And out various compositional approaches would be an interesting topic all its own! I haven't thought to bring it up because I'm content with my approach -- however odd it may seem.

[Dan Fromm]

I hate to police the thread, but...

The question is about the GG using a f8 vs 5.6 lens in dim lighting conditions.

Thread drift is a fact of life. Live with it.

FYI, no one, especially the person who started it, owns a discussion.

[Whir-Click]

I use a Maxwell focus screen with the Nikkor SW f/8 and am pleased with the brightness and ease of focusing in low light conditions. It was basically an investment on the rear to save weight on the front and bulk in the pack. Plus, I’m standardized on 67mm filters so I wanted a solution to make the f/8 lens work out.

[Ben]

I use a Maxwell focus screen with the Nikkor SW f/8 and am pleased with the brightness and ease of focusing in low light conditions. It was basically an investment on the rear to save weight on the front and bulk in the pack. Plus, I’m standardized on 67mm filters so I wanted a solution to make the f/8 lens work out.

Great suggestion! What kind of Maxwell focus screen are using and where can one get it?

[Whir-Click]

Mine is the Maxwell 4x5 Ultra Brilliant Matte focus screen, and the the source is Bill Maxwell of Maxwell Precision Optics (https://m.facebook.com/Maxwell-Precision-Optics-200647716643807/).

[Ben]

Mine is the Maxwell 4x5 Ultra Brilliant Matte focus screen, and the the source is Bill Maxwell of Maxwell Precision Optics (https://m.facebook.com/Maxwell-Precision-Optics-200647716643807/).

Great!

[Greg]

Over the years I have owned and used both f/5.6 and f/8 90mm lenses. Honestly I never really saw that much of a huge difference in brightness that each projected on the GG. Take into account that I never had both lenses at the same time to compare side by side, so the brightness of the images was only by memory. But then I acquired a 90mm f/4.5 Nikkor-SW.... I was amazed at how bright the image was that it projected on the GG. Not a small lens for sure, but with that bright image that it projected on the GG, I quickly was spoiled. My 90mm f/4.5 Nikkor-SW actually was acquired for less than my f/5.6 90mm optic.

[Kiwi7475]

As I said earlier, it’s a trade, size vs brightness. Definitely more brightness does not ever hurt but if you’re backpacking it’s more weight you’re piling on. A Maxwell GG helps but it’s also a several hundred dollars investment.

Choices, choices…..

[xkaes]

I'm a backpacker but it wasn't the weight of the 90mm f5.6 that made up my mind -- the 90mm f8 is far from light -- it was the 82mm filter size. That was the deciding factor. Throw in the extra weight and price tag? EASY choice. But I sure wish they could make the 90mm f8 as small as the 105mm f5.6!

[rdenney]

Mine is the Maxwell 4x5 Ultra Brilliant Matte focus screen, and the the source is Bill Maxwell of Maxwell Precision Optics (https://m.facebook.com/Maxwell-Precision-Optics-200647716643807/).

Same for me. It’s good enough that I use it with both the Sinar P and the F, moving it back and forth as needed. Before getting the Maxwell screen, no dark cloth was sufficient for seeing into the corners from straight on when using short lenses. The Sinar clip-in Fresnel isn’t on the same planet. The Maxwell screen is fine enough not to get in the way of checking focus using a 10x loupe.

Speaking of loupes, the tilting type has been my favorite.

I use a Blackjacket dark cloth, and this has been transformative. All previous dark cloths I’ve owned are annoying by comparison. Light blockage is just about total, including what comes up from below.

https://quietworks.com/FRAMES_FILES/BJ_SPECIFICATIONS/BJ_NEW_HOME_FRAME_.htm

Rick “supporting Oren with the gentle reminder that OP’s don’t own the thread” Denney

[SergeyT]

I think it comes down to extremes.
If you have an F8 lens then in most cases it should allow you to make properly composed and focused exposures. But then there would be border line cases where one misses the focus or framing because the image on GG at F8 was too dim or the time to spend under dark cloth was not enough. If it does not matter whether you have a good chance at taking pictures in border line cases then F8 wins(in price and weight categories).
The counter argument could be about whether to bring a lens or not onto, let's say, a backpacking trip (F8 vs F4.5). But then how much of a difference an extra 300-400 grams will make to a 50 Lb pack? And what is the point in bringing a lens or even LF gear onto a trip without aiming at making technically best possible images with it. A poorly composed and/or focused LF image rarely stands a chance against a properly composed/focused image in smaller formats.

[Kiwi7475]

I'm a backpacker but it wasn't the weight of the 90mm f5.6 that made up my mind -- the 90mm f8 is far from light -- it was the 82mm filter size. That was the deciding factor. Throw in the extra weight and price tag? EASY choice. But I sure wish they could make the 90mm f8 as small as the 105mm f5.6!

Then why not skip 90mm altogether and get a 80mm super symmar XL ? It’s f4.5, 67mm filter size, fits in a copal 0, and the optics weight less than 300 g. It’s only a tiny bit wider.

[xkaes]

Then why not skip 90mm altogether and get a 80mm super symmar XL ? It’s f4.5, 67mm filter size, fits in a copal 0, and the optics weight less than 300 g. It’s only a tiny bit wider.

Only because I carry a 75mm f5.6 -- 67mm filter thread.

[xkaes]

But then how much of a difference an extra 300-400 grams will make to a 50 Lb pack? And what is the point in bringing a lens or even LF gear onto a trip without aiming at making technically best possible images with it.

Just a guess -- I suspect you haven't done many week long hikes with a 60 pound backpack.

[Alan Klein]

Remember you lose a stop and a half if you have a center filter over the wide angle lens.

[SergeyT]

Just a guess -- I suspect you haven't done many week long hikes with a 60 pound backpack.

Or, maybe, we just have different opinions on things

[xkaes]

Remember you lose a stop and a half if you have a center filter over the wide angle lens.

Often true, but -- much to my surprise -- there are plenty of shutterbugs that don't use CND filters on 90mm lenses. And there are plenty of CND filters that are stronger, and weaker, than 1.5f.

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/center5.htm (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/center5.htm)

[Doremus Scudder]

Yes, I'm familiar with Artemis, but saying that we must compose independently of the camera's ground glass is ridiculous.
We need to see what we're doing, otherwise what's the point of using a view camera.


Neither I nor Doremus said that you "must" compose independently of the ground glass. I don't know how Doremus does it, but some people, myself among them, find a director's viewfinder invaluable and a significant time saver. ...


We all have to roughly compose each picture at first. And that can take some time. How else would we know where to put the tripod? But 99% of the time, I end up moving the tripod, to at least some degree -- up, down, left, right, forward, back -- AFTER I look at the ground glass. And LOTS of times, I end up changing the lens, too -- which usually means moving the tripod again. Rinse and repeat.

Now that I think about it, it's amazing that I've actually been able to take ANY pictures!


At the risk of being off-topic a bit, let me elaborate (I think this is relevant to the discussion however). I am, in essence, saying that I do, and recommend that you learn how to, compose completely independently of the ground glass. I use a viewing frame (a Zone VI viewing filter to be exact, but any such device such as a simple rectangle cut in a card or a director's viewfinder will work - I like the Zone VI filter for its small size). I find my exact viewpoint and framing using the viewing filter and one eye. The distance between my eye and viewing filter tells me the focal length I need. I set up my tripod and position it under my chin. I then set up the camera with the predetermined lens. Every now and then I find I need to change lenses; usually not. Even less do I have to move the tripod or even adjust height except for the occasional inch this way or that to get exact convergences that I want.

What this means is that I do not have to see much on the ground glass. I just need to know that the composition I want is "in there" somewhere. I crop to the exact borders and and aspect ratio in the darkroom when enlarging. It's nice when a lens gives me a full-frame image from the camera position I've chosen, but that's rarely the case. Usually I need to go with a little more image than I really need and crop later.

So, I check to make sure my borders are there and then just have to apply movements and focus. These latter only require me to examine the two to four focus points I've already chosen, for which I use my loupe.

What this means is that in low-light situations, or in cases where the camera position is really extreme and viewing the ground glass is awkward, I don't have to expend a lot of effort doing so. I've make exposures where I've only looked at two small things on the ground glass through the loupe. Being able to do this means I don't need an advantageous camera position for viewing, nor do I need to carry a heavy and bulky brighter lens. Sure, I love taking time viewing the ground-glass image, but I don't have to if it's not easy.

I don't think this way of working is ridiculous at all. Check my webpage for the results.


The dark cloth is relevant because a good dark cloth should help your eyes adjust to the GG. The question is, with a good dark cloth and allowing eyes to adjust, is there a discernible difference between a f8 and f5.6 lens under dim lighting conditions?

The answer is, "yes, of course there will be a discernible difference; and that difference will be one stop." An f/8 lens will give you half the light of an f/5.6 lens; that's what one stop difference is. The real question is, "do you need that much light and are you willing to carry the heavier lens and bear the expense of the lens itself and the accessories it needs." It's really up to you to decide; just make an informed decision that you'll be happy with. I'm perfectly happy with my f/8 and f/9 lenses and use them successfully in lots of low-light situations. You may not find that that works for you.

Best,

Doremus

[BrianShaw]

You don’t really need my confirmation, but that approach has worked for me over the years too.

[Oren Grad]

I don't use a separate viewing frame, but still from time to time I make exposures without being able to see all parts of the composition clearly on the GG, whether because of falloff on the periphery with extreme wide angle lenses or issues with less extreme setups because of dim ambient lighting. Sure, given the cost per sheet I'll be more conservative when I'm shooting bigger formats than when I'm shooting 4x5 or 5x7, but for my purposes taking a gamble now and then to see how it comes out is just part of doing photography in a satisfying way, something that goes with the territory.