Voigtlander B serial transition to Portrait Objectiv serial engraving & Nomenclature

[mhayashi]

I'm trying to figure out Voigtlander B(quick worker) serial transition to Portrait Objectiv series in terms of lens design, engraving & Nomenclature.
Here is the list of the serial numbers and engravings I collected on the internet and D'Agostini's book.

222254

Any thoughts on this topic are welcome!!
Very interesting topic to me, but anybody??

Here are some of my questions I haven't got answers for.
1. Does anyone know who actually designed B series, by Hans Zincke Sommer(1837-1922)?
2. B means there were A at the time but there seemed no A series at the time B series introduced?? I understood when Voigtlander used alphabetical suffix to start new series in old days and then changed the name to permanent names and drop the alphabet like this topic I suppose.
3. When did Voigtlander start to use new glasses in Jena for the B series? I am thinking the experimental new glasses were used from the beginning around 1878?, meaning the introduction of B series well before 1886...?
4. When did Voigtlander change the lens design of B series if any, maybe around 1889 after additional new glasses were available?
when the engraving was changed to Portrait Objectiv I, No XB?

[Tim Deming]

If you haven't already, you should get a copy of Claus Prochnow's book: Voigtländer Report 3: Platten- und Rollfilmkameras

This 3rd volume has a lot of information on early Voigtlander lenses. It is only available in German, as far as I know, but one can always translate :D

[mhayashi]

Thanks Tim for your info.
I’ve just ordered the used book from Amazon!

[Steven Tribe]

Now I have a bad conscience!

I started to write a contribution some days ago, but realized that it would take the best part of an hour to formulate what I wanted to say!
I started with mentioning the Prochinow book which has a quite different approach to Voigtlander’s Petzval evolution than the sources you mentioned. Thanks to the auto save system I can re-create the first sentences!

“I will try and contribute, as best I can!
I have the advantage of having the Claus Prochinow “Voigtlander Report 3” book.
Eder suggested (as mentioned by Prochinow) that Emil Busch in 1858 was the first to…….”

Now you have ordered Prochinow’s book. Most of the book is about cameras - just 30 pages devoted to lenses. I don’t think you will find a direct answer to your A/B question, though. I certainly can’t!

[mhayashi]

Thanks Steven for your comment!
Now I want to know what you wanted to say by “the best part of an hour to formulate what I wanted to say!”.

[mhayashi]

I made some rough drafts of sample lists and flowcharts I looked up by now in pdf for further researches for anyone.

248161
246934
246766
245373

If anyone wants the original excel file, let me know by email.
Maybe other members can help update the file for sampling Voigtlander petzval lenses with numbers engraved on the barrels.

My current self-reply to the original questoins...

1. Does anyone know who actually designed B series, Hans Zincke Sommer(1837-1922)?
Maybe yes. (I emailed to Ivan Rose about this topic. I may be allowed to post his reply later with his credit if he allows.)
The 1870 Ia f2.3 series design (the rear crown and flint space is minimal and flint curvatures are pronounced) which was introduced later in 1900 resembles the slower yet fast f3.16 7B layout in my hands especially there is no spacer ring between the elements in the rear group that makes the rear crown and flint closer togother and the flint has the pronounced curvatures.

See p40-41 in Kingslake's "A history of photographic lenses".
https://archive.org/details/historyofphotogr0000king/page/40/mode/2up?q=sommer

P274-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Theorie_und_Geschichte_des_Photographisc/fSFuAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

P223 Ausführliches Handbuch der Photographie Volume 1 by Josef Maria Eder, 1884
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Ausf%C3%BChrliches_Handbuch_der_Photographie/Fiq2AAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0


In recent times (1881) Voigtländer also has these construction modified again. The design of the lenses is analogous to the previous one, but the radii of curvature of the lenses, especially the inner radii, are considerably more curved; also the Lenses of the rear lens are analogous to the previous new rear lens, only the inner radii are slightly different, so that the crown glass lens is no longer cemented to the flint glass lens, but separate. More precise dates have not been announced. The last-mentioned construction achieves extraordinary things in terms of light power and depth and must be highly recommended for taking large portraits (oblong format, promenade format); the instrument is much brighter than similar portrait instruments of old construction.
It has a shorter focal length and is therefore particularly suitable for short studios of value.


NOTE: The above year 1881 is suspicious, contradictory against 7B samples existed dating from 1878.

A photographer's testimonial:
in p71 Photographic Times and American Photographer Volume 12, 1882
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Photographic_Times_and_American_Photogra/9yhLAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0


TESTIMONIALS.
We are constantly receiving letters from all parts of the country, unsolicited, acknowledging the many excellencies of our lenses.
Regarding the 7 B Voigtlander, Mr. P. R. Young, of Oneonta, N. Y. , writes us :
" *** It could not be bought to- day for two hundred dollars ! Never saw any tube that could give that dreamy something so very pleasant to see, but hard to attain; presume it is called 'plasticity.' ”


Mr. P. R. Young, of Oneonta, N. Y. was the established photographer at that time.
Perry R. YOUNG, born Oct 1849, married 21 years, born NY, parents
born NY, a Photographer, died Jan 31, 1916.

Young Studio at McCrumb Block Oneonta,NY.
Other branches; Sidney, Worcester and Cobleskill

https://cdm16694.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/ZBM/id/139/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_M._Milne
Picture Citation:Special Collections, Milne Library, SUNY Oneonta
photograph; b&w; 9.8 x 6.8 in. (24.8 x 17.2 cm.)
This picture was taken in between 1889 and 1898,(maybe by the original 7B he testified??)
while he was elected to become the first principal of the Oneonta Normal School(the current SUNY,Oneonta).
He stayed for nine years before he was forced to resign in 1898 due to a controversy with the board.


2. B means there was A at the time but there seemed no A series at the time B series introduced?? I understood when Voigtlander used alphabetical suffix to start new series in old days and then changed the name to permanent names and drop the alphabet like this topic I suppose.

There were A series(3A, 7A, 8A, 9A) as the slowest petzvals described in McCollin 1876 and in other older catalogues as the third series(partly only 5A).
So it would be safe to say the fastest series follow as B later if that is the origin of the naming....

3. When did Voigtlander start to use new glasses in Jena for the B series? I am thinking the experimental new glasses were used from the beginning around 1878?, meaning the introduction of B series well before 1886...?

By 1886 for Portrait Objectives and Euryscopes from 1906 Voigtlander catalogue description about the history.
https://antiquecameras.net/images/Voigt1906abcd.pdf

By 1898 at the latest based on the description (Uses Jena Glass) of British Journal Photographic Almanac 1898.
https://archive.org/details/1898britishjourn00londuoft/page/221/mode/1up?q=voigtlander

4. When did Voigtlander change the lens design of B series if any, maybe around 1889 after additional new glasses were available?
when the engraving was changed to Portrait Objectiv I, No XB?

The same question as above as one answer.

When the optical redesigns were made by Jena glass in 1886.
Probably as early as 1885 according to the descriptions below, at the same time as Portrait Objectiv I, No XB engraving started.
I need more actual lens samples around 1885.

For the engraving change, the sampling shows
from XB
to Portrait-Objectiv I, No XB
change occured circa between 1884 and 1889.

I need at least two samples to confirm in 1885 and 1886 each, whether that change occurred at the same time with the introduciont of Jena glass in 1886.

P 122 Ausführliches Handbuch der Photographie Volume 1 By Josef Maria Eder, 1893
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Ausf%C3%BChrliches_Handbuch_der_Photographie/ffMEAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0


Recently, Voigtländer changed this original Petzval'sche
Construction , in that he (according to Dallmeyer's procedure, see below) in the
Rear combination reversed the position of the flint and crown glasses.
The last construction (1885) of Voigtländer's portrait lens with a large
Luminous Intensity” (Quick Worker) has the Ver
ratio of aperture to focal length = 1 : 3 1/6;
the field of view angle is = 50 degrees.


The new design made in 1885?(optical design year?, not production year?) for the portrait objectiv. Not quite sure if it is due to the new Jena glass or it was used from 1885. <-1886 is mentioned in other literatures the year Voigtlander started to use Jena glass, but if I can find a sample with Portrait Objectiv I engraving in 1885, that should prove the Jena glass used from 1885.

P338 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899


Glassworks for the mass production of optical glass by 0.SCHOTT,E.ABBE,C. and R.Zeiss under the company "Glas technical laboratory SCHOTT & GEN.Jena" in 1886. The construction of the glassworks was already completed in autumn 1884, whereby a considerable subsidy from the Prussian state made it possible to carry out the first very expensive tests on a manufacturing scale had made possible.


The description below about the new Voigtlander portrait objectiv design suggests it is very similar to Dallmeyer's, losing the pronounced curvatures in the rear element in the past B series.

P276-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr, 1899
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Theorie_und_Geschichte_des_Photographisc/fSFuAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0


In 1878 we find the VOIGTLÄNDER'sche institution the introduction of a portrait lens with a cemented rear lens busy, of a type possibly due to the same author is due to .
J. M. EDER tells us meanwhile (1. 126.) that after some years 1885 the manufacture of these lenses in favor of a type was abandoned in which after the process J. H. DALLMEYER's glass sequence in the hind limb was changed.
If one reduces that there (1. 122.) for a focal length of 167 mm
given radius values ​​by dividing by 1.67 on f appr. =100 mm , these numbers can be compared with those of J. H. DALLMEYER compare specified. Now the approximate
f = 100 mm reduced radii according to J. H. DALLMEYER ( 1866 ):

and, very similarly, after FR. VOIGTLANDER (1885):

Unfortunately, not all the data are known here either, specifically the distance is missing.
In order to have a picture of this VOIGTLÄNDER type, it will suffice to visualize DALLMEYER's, Fig. 86.
In the drawing there would hardly be any other difference make noticeable the difference in curvature on surface 4 would not recognize for the so few different arrow heights
bar will be as of that the lens diameter in the first case would be 33.3mm, in the second 31.1mm.

Also for another catalogue evidence,
1893 Buchanan's complete illustrated catalogue: photographic supplies Philadelphia
1898 British Journal Photographic Almanac 1898

https://archive.org/details/gri_33125013853631/page/8/mode/1up?q=voigtlander

As I write in the flowchart in the above pdf, to summarize the 1885 portrait objectiv I,
1885?-1886-1889 First Series, Dallmeyer layout, aka Schnellarbeiter, "quick-worker".
Redesigned with Jena glass.
Dallmeyer's patent US65729A 1867-06-11 expired by 1884.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/f0/1d/7f/208a263973b513/US65729.pdf

P276-277 Theorie und Geschichte des Photographischen Objektivs By Moritz von Rohr,
Friedrich Wilhelm Ritter von Voigtlander (as in FR. Voigtlander) designed these series?

Not quite sure if it is due to the new Jena glass or it was used from 1885.
But there are supporting descriptions as above since the Jena glass was available from 1884.

The design was very similar to Dallmeyer's, losing the strong curvatures of the original "B series" optical design.
The second series are now called First series instead, and changed the nickname from Rapid to Quick, the same as the original first series' nickname.

The Portrait Euryscope II the Second Series. The engraving "Portrait Objectiv I" start
The third series also replaced by Portrait Euryscope III series.Only Quick workers B series were produced by then.
1896-1909 From this year to the end of the productions of Portrait Objectiv I Series, the engraving nomenclature tended to omit descriptions, omitting B in 1893, No. in 1900- 1901, adding the effective focal length in 1902-1905, then finaly dropping the lens number designation in 1905. The production of the first (B) series finally stopped by circa 1910?.


Based on all of these transitions, Voigtlander main petzval(partly euryscop) nomenclature(syntactic) rule of engravings is something like this….
(Portrait-[Objectiv|Euryscop])([I|II|III])(No.)(X([A|B]))(X cm)
meaning….
(Using Jena glass for portrait made in 1885 and after & Dallmeyer layout for [petzval design|RR design])([Catalogue Series lens group number])(No.)(Xth in the given series ([in the A|B designation in the given series, B with Dallmeyer design])(effective focal length X cm)

e.g.
Portrait-Objectiv I, No.7., 40cm
meaning...
Using Jena glass for portrait made in 1885 and after & Dallmeyer layout for petzval design
Series I in catalogue
No.7 in Series I
effective focal length 40cm

7B
meaning....
Without using Jena glass for portrait made before 1885 for petzval design
No.7 with Dallmeyer design (7 in 7B infers 14" EF.)

[mhayashi]

Ivan Rose has allowed me to post his comments. Here these are.

The reply includes his comments about another thread.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?168649-Voigtlander-No-6-petzval-in-1857-a-case-study-and-catalogs-before-1857

———————-
Hello Masayoshi,
I had a few thoughts re the Voigtlander's -
1857 No.6 I have seen another like this but without the waterhouse slot, Corrado puts the date for actinic correction at 1858, this was partly explained by Petzval not wanting to do further work for Voigt. without a good payment. Andrew Ross seemed to solve the actinic focus problem by 1851, his lens wining an award at the 'Great Exhibition' in London. Another point, the small #125mm lenses do not need this compensation scale, (I have a 125mm of 1850, this is correct for actinic focus), the cone shaped Voigtlander camera lens does not have a scale. The scale is only required for the larger sizes of lens ?.
The compensation scale returns with the Puyo non achromatic lenses from the early 20th cent., I have the correct instruction book for these (in French).
'B' series, not sure of the designer, should be Zinke-Sommer. Corrado found no evidence for the new Jena glass be added to these, it was the same for the Ross and Dallmeyer companies, there was no commercial gain in changing the basic Petzval / Dallmeyer variation of design. The new glass was added to the Euryscop, and for Ross the Symmetrical series, and some of the landscape lenses.
I have one of the very rare Zinke-Sommer 1878 cemented 'Petzval' lenses, 330mm focus, the contrast is increased slightly over the air-spaced design. It is a lens that would be interesting to do more tests with.
Regards Ivan

Cemented Petzval, you have saved an image of my lens on your Flickr 'faves', it is between the 6B & 7B in size with elements of 95mm diameter, the rear is approx. 20mm thick. There are no extra markings on the barrel, I assumed it was a portrait Euryscop for many years until I found the extra information about these. The number is noted in Corrado's book, but just as a Petzval, I think it was part of the Voigt. collection several decades ago.
Any information I have sent you which you think is interesting can be added to the large format site.
Regards Ivan
———————————
He mentions his flickr photo of No.23195, a sample of the Voigtlander petzval lens with the rear elements glued, designed by Hans Sommer in 1878, not a Euryscope! Notice no clue to detect whether it’s the Hans Sommer lens on appearance!!!

[mhayashi]

I have updated my new findings mainly about Portrait objective Ia which I considered an appendix putting aside for my research but Hans Harting descriptions
in p279-p296 Photographische Correspondenz 1900 Nr.476,
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Photographische_Korrespondenz/mjMyAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0
enlightened the optical design about Hans Zincke Sommer’s original Ia design and the glued rear element modified petzvals, which might implied his 1878 B series design using his dioptrik analytic calculation.
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Untersuchungen_über_die_Dioptrik_der_Li/zCM6AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0

Quote from p282-p283 Photographische Correspondenz 1900 Nr.476:



In his dioptrics of lens systems, Sommer, as I have mentioned, is completely on Petzval's point of view and develops long series of formulas with admirable patience, which only partially are still not very clear. With these extensive mathematical developments, he stands in contrast to the modern calculating opticians, who, on the basis of certain theorems, mostly obtained inductively, seek to gain insight into the essence of a construction by actually following the rays of light. Among other innovations, which were almost exclusively dropped again,such as B. a photographic objective that is symmetrical to the aperture and consists of four individual lenses, Sommer calculated a modification of the old Viennese Petzval objective, the development of which can be followed step by step in the dioptric. The new modification differs conspicuously from Voigtländer's Series I, for the aperture ratio has now increased from 1:3.2 to 1:2.4; the arrangement of the lenses, on the other hand, has remained the same. The objective therefore consists of two front lenses cemented together and two separate rear lenses, in both cases Crown ahead . The objective was primarily intended for visual purposes, i.e. not usable for photography; Glass types were a heavy zinc silicate crown and a heavier lead silicate flint. The corrections condition is, like that of all published lens types, in which mentioned works of Dr. V. Rohr has been mathematically examinedand shows a not inconsiderable spherical undercorrection for the point of greatest physiological brightness, on the other hand a satisfactory equalization of the astigmatism and the image field flatness for such a large aperture ratio, the latter of course in a figurative sense. What the lens actually did was not known, for it had never actually been carried out; it existed only as a being of numbers Sommer's beech.


————
After Hans Zincke Sommer completed the thesis, Untersuchungen über die Dioptrik der Linsen-Systeme in 1870,
he applied the method to design the following three improved petzval lenses by 1878,

1. the original in 1870, then tweeked by Hans Harting as the late model as Portrait Objectiv Ia (fastest f2.3), in 1900

3. the modified rear elements glued petzval in 1878. German No.5761 in June 25th 1879, and GB No.4756/78, 1879.

Hypothesis 1
2. the B series (f 3.14, Schnellarbeiter) by 1878 later called Portrait Objectiv I with Jena glass modification in 1885,
the B series were designed by the Dioptrik method at the same period as 1 the original in 1870, the late Portrait Objectiv Ia f2.3.
—————

Note: Not to be confused about the two different petzvals:
1878 B series, aka B series, Schnellarbeiter, quick worker, rapid worker, made circa 1878-1885
1885 and after Portrait Objectiv I(with Jena glass), aka, Schnellarbeiter, quick worker, made circa 1885-1910?

eg. Portrait-Objectiv I No.5B is the latter 1885 and after petzval, even though B is denoted, while B is dropped later from the engraving.

I emailed Corrado about all of these findings and thoughts and he would reply me during his summer vacation….

[mhayashi]

I have just received the email from Corrado.
Here is the reply and the part of his 2nd edition draft, that he allowed me to share.

Dear Masayoshi,

I apologize for the delay in writing to you.
I am writing the second edition in Italian of my book on German builders.
I rearranged some pages and translated them for you with google. I send them to you by We transfer.
I came to the conclusion that there are 5 types of Portrait Lens.
However, of the 2nd and 3rd types I have only theoretical information and I have never been able to examine a specimen because perhaps they are rare objectives.
I think that to be able to make a very precise history of the Portrait it would be necessary to examine the lenses of the second and third types.
In those years (1879-1891) the company was more interested in advertising the Euryscop and the Portrait was probably kept only by tradition.
I would be happy if you would tell me what you think about it.
I very much appreciated the accuracy of the diagrams you sent me in July and August. They have been very helpful to me.
If you want to use the material that I have sent you on the blogs you can do it without problems.
A friendly greeting.
Corrado
———————
I cannot share his pdf due to the pdf upload limit by the LFPF system.
The file size is about 70MB.
But here is the link for download but it’s limited by September 13th.
Dear moderator, if you can upload the pdf for other members, I'd be appreciated.

Download link

https://wetransfer.com/downloads/68f97703f5bf7c887bedcca2026958f520220906214523/45082c78022f37f566b3ec8b78aeff7d20220906214602/cf7adf
1 item
Pages traslated from italian 2 th Edizion 2022 keynote copia.pdf
66.7 MB

[mhayashi]

Here is new info.
Andreas Mros in Germany, a FB friend of mine kindly checked his Voigtlander No.7 petzval with 7 on the barrel.
The lens serial number is No.24257 made in 1878 shows the Dallmeyer design, rear elements towards subject: Concave-convex, concave-convex.
The the rear lens case is redesigned to each case for each rear element.
The spacer ring is substituted to the unthreaded space and the internal rear element distance is further adjusted by shim rings.
No internal rear strong curvatures of rear elements unlike the B series at the same period betwenn 1878 and 1885.

Total height including hood is 305mm.
Front lens opening diameter 103mm
Rear lens opening diameter 105mm
measured focal length from whs slot to GG on far objects with extrapolation suggests 450mm.
This fact suggests that the Series on the number on the barrel inherit the focal length sets of the original petzval design,
yet the optical design changed from the original petzval layout to the Dallmeyer one.

I have not confirmed during this period from 1878 to 1886(1885) whether larger No.8 and No.9 produced had the numbers on the barrel likewise, or whether they had the Dallmeyer design or not. The sampling check would confirm this question in future.

I have updated the flowchart and sample list accordingly.
One of the remaining questions has now solved.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

233473
233474
233475
233476

Acknowledgement: all of these pictures are from Andreas Mros.

[mhayashi]

Additional photos
Acknowledgement: all of these pictures are from Andreas Mros.
233477
233478
233479
233480

[mhayashi]

More photos.
Acknowledgement: all of these pictures are from Andreas Mros.
233481
233482
233483
233484

[Tin Can]

Thank you all

[mhayashi]

Thank you, Tin.
I have updated the pdfs, based on new info according to Hartmut Thiele's book, arrived from Germany today.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

Voigtländer: Fabrikationsbuch Photooptik.
Alle Photoobjektive, Spezialobjektive, Fertigungsnummern, Fertigungszeiten, Mengen und Kameraanpassungen von 1884 bis 1972.
Von Hartmut Thiele.

332 Seiten (ausschließlich Tabellen), 21 x 29,5 cm, 4., überarbeitete und erweiterte Auflage, München 2022, broschiert

Bestell-Nummer: 64017V

https://www.lindemanns.de/shop/fotobuchhandlung/64017v-voigtlaender--hartmut-thiele-fabrikationsbuch-photooptik.php

[mhayashi]

I have added the summary table in #6 reply.
VoigtlanderPetzvalTransitionSummary20221216.pdf
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

[mhayashi]

Visiting Foto:Mutori to check the optical design of Portrait Objectiv Ia 10cm, made in 20/6/1901 according to Thiele’s book.

It turns out the design is modified dallmeyer design, from the subject to the GG,
(VV-CV)-A-(CV-A-CV).
Note it’s not C in the front inner surface as in (VV-CC)-A-(CV-A-CV) as in the original Dallmeyer design.

V convex
C concave
A air spaced

The rear concave and convex curvatures are very strong, spacer ring spaced yet rear elements being very close together, the signature of Hans Zincke Sommer design, being modified by Harting.

Very interesting feature of the aperture mechanism in front of the front lens.

I shall update the Voigtlander transition table accordingly. But I also need to check other Ia’s, as the optical design might be different depending on the focal length.

Thank you Kimura-san for cooperation!

234538
234539
234540
234541

[mhayashi]

Some more pics of the above Ia lens.
234542
234543
234544
234545

[mhayashi]

More pics.
234546
234547
234548
234549

[mhayashi]

I have updated the VoigtlanderPetzvalTransitionSummary20230209.pdf in the #6 reply.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

Proto-6 generation may not exist but I added the column for it in the table.
But there are some descriptions that support the possible existance.
Only samples attest the existance. The serial numbers should be in the range from 28764 to 35758.
If you have a Voigtlander petzval sample in this range, please let me know. I want to know the detail about your sample.

[mhayashi]

I have found another important catalog which dates 1879, the year I was searching for. Very interesting and important progress to entangle the history.

Here is the link of the google book.
I have reflected the info I got about the rear elements glued petzvals designed by Hans Sommer to the pdfs.

Handbuch der practischen Photographie by Ludwig Gustav Kleffel in 1880.
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/Handbuch_der_practischen_Photographie/AFTAfBon_FkC?hl=ja&gbpv=0

P508(P19 in the catalog) L. G.KLEFFEL & SOHN catalogue 1879. The divisions of the original to the improved focal lengths provide about 81.6% of focal length reductions. The numbers below are calculated from the ratio of the before and after focal lengths in the table.

But note the sample measurement 335mm f3.6 d92mm of the focal length doesn’t match any of the calculated result….

Also the original focal lengths in the P508(p19 in the catalog) don’t match to the focal lengths in the previous pages….
Trying to figure out these differences.

I updated the pdfs in #6 reply with the new findings and added the main engraving row and the serial number range row in the transition summary pdf.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

As the supplementary info, here is the ad in 1879 for the older petzvals to be replaced by the rear glued “improved compound”.

The Photographic News
A Weekly Record of the Progress of Photography Volume 23
See p236.
https://www.google.co.jp/books/edition/The_Photographic_News/uAP9aebFBQwC?hl=en
237849

If you have Voigtlander petzval samples that contradict against the transition summary,
let me know.

[mhayashi]

No. 24047 5B, the first generation B series has the traditional optical layout in the rear group by sample inspection.
A big surprise! The 5B rear elements are cased in or lathed in so the elements cannot be rearranged after the production. Even flipping, the two rear elements can’t be the dallmeyer layout as the surface curves are different.

241829
241830
241831
241832

No.23985 3B sample also seems to have the traditional petzval layout.
I will confirm the owner again.

My hypothesis all of the lenses in the same series should have the same optical layout is now negated.
The first generation 4B was confirmed it has the dallmeyer layout in the rear group by my two FB friend sample.

No.82827 Portrait-Objectiv I, 31cm (No.6) has the dallmeyer layout in the rear group by sample inspection.

Let me know the optical layouts if you have any samples of the first generation B series and the second generation B series(Portrait Objectiv I).

[mhayashi]

I have added the Orthoskop in the flowchart and the summary table in the #6 reply.

[Nodenwolf]

Good afternoon! I have a lot of respect for those who keep historical statistics, so I hope I can help you.

I have 2 voigtlander petzval lenses, even though I consider myself a fan of this company :)

1st
Portrait Objectiv I, 25cm. 1:3,2
№82656
Voigtlander & Sohn,
Braunshweig

I bought it through ebay from a small German town.
It is typical dallmeyer petzval.

P/s/
It has skew gear.
2nd

№10690
Voigtlander & Sohn
in Wien und
Braubshweig

This one came from America.
about 30cm f4,2.
standart petzval.

P.S.
straight - tooth transmission.
No letters or numbers on the ends of the lenses, but one on the inner surface of the tube at the rear lenses. "XVII"

243262

243263

[Tin Can]

ldk

if this data is collated into a bigger file

i forget who, controls the COOKE SF lenses database

i know i have 2 ON that list

i think any poster of valuable history make sure the print data is BIG


yours is unreadable as posted






that

[mhayashi]

Thank you for your cooperation.
Could you give me the engraving pictures of both lenses?
Also let me know the each surface curvature, whether the surface is concave, convex, or plano and airspaced if any.
When you describe the surfaces, make sure you put a piece of folded paper on the surface to determine the curvature, and please disassemble all of the elements especially the rear group.

Also please measure the front and rear lens opening diameters.

Dear Tin Can,
the Cooke SF sheet is controled by Karl French.
TTH RV and RVP is controled by Peter Brooks.
----------------------
1st
Portrait Objectiv I, 25cm. 1:3,2
№82656
Voigtlander & Sohn,
Braunshweig

I bought it through ebay from a small German town.
It is typical dallmeyer petzval.

This is an interesting sample in that the engraving style is different from the ones I observed so far in this period.
Your sample was made in 6/10/1905, one of two in the batch.
I don't understand what you mean by the "skew gear" below.
I understood this sample is Dallmeyer design.
I have updated the sample listing with your sample.
Thank you.

P/s/
It has skew gear.

--------------------------------
2nd

№10690
Voigtlander & Sohn
in Wien und
Braubshweig

This sample is undetermined.
I need to know the front and rear lens opening diameters.
This sample was made circa 1862.
It is probably No.3 286mm f3.7 d78:80mm where 78mm is front lens opening diameter, 80mm rear.

[Nodenwolf]

I think I have enough information, so the answer will be long.

243271243272

The engraving on my copy really has differences, and it seems to me that it is closer to the Ia series, where, in addition to the focal length, the aperture value was also indicated.

I'll insert my 5 cents and attach a photo of the lenses from the archive.

243273243274243275

these lenses were sold in local stores and I could not get other photos. Here are links to those that are still available.
https://allegrolokalnie.pl/oferta/obiektyw-voigtlaender-sohn-portraitobjectiv-i
https://auction.oldjwauctioneers.com/lots/view/4-7NQETV/voigtlander-sohn-camera-lens
https://www.arsenal-photo.com/navi.php?a=19810


1st

The reason for the difference in engraving is not clear to me, but most often this was attributed to the mistakes of workers who did it manually. Maybe he did it after a pint of good beer and the production of a batch of Ia? :)

Thank you very much for the exact production date. I knew the year, but knowing the day, month and batch is extremely pleasant.

I'm not sure how it will be correct in technical terms in English, but in the picture you can see the difference between a skewed and a straight-toothed transmission. From the user's point of view, the oblique tooth gives a smoother and more continuous focus, since the gear has a constant area of adhesion to the guide.
243285243284

unfortunately, it is not possible to disassemble the front lens blocks on both lenses. On the first one, it is removed together with the blend and twisting is very difficult.

On the second there are problems with the thread, it seems to be soldered.243278

When I disassembled it a few years ago, I was sure that it was Dallmeyer's design. Naturally, there is an airspace. All lenses are rolled into brass frames and it is impossible to assemble the rear lens unit with an error.
243279243280

Front lens is about 85mm
Back 79 (exactly)

[Nodenwolf]

2nd
Front lens 80mm.
243281
back 77.
243282

It has this lens design.
243283
I am sure of this, since I cleaned it a week ago.

[mhayashi]

Thank you for your additional pics and info.

The engraving on my copy really has differences, and it seems to me that it is closer to the Ia series, where, in addition to the focal length, the aperture value was also indicated.
Yes, that is also what I thought but not quite sure about the engraver was drunk.
Supposedly there wasn’t only one engraver but many, the one who did for Ia was the role of I engraving one day.
But again, this engraving style is only one sample I have seen in this period, a new finding.


I'm not sure how it will be correct in technical terms in English, but in the picture you can see the difference between a skewed and a straight-toothed transmission. From the user's point of view, the oblique tooth gives a smoother and more continuous focus, since the gear has a constant area of adhesion to the guide.

Thank you for your explanation.
Oh, yes. You studied the differences in detail!
I have only No.6 and above in this period which are in only rigid mounts,
So I didn’t have enough attention to the rack and pinion style.
It would be an interesting point to study the transition.

[mhayashi]

No.45319 Portrait-Objectiv I, No 5B sample was confirmed the Dallmeyer layout as expected.

[mhayashi]

Happy new year everyone.
I have updated the transition summary based on the new finding in 1886 Photographische Notizen.
VoigtlanderPetzvalTransitionSummary20240108.pdf
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?166538-Voigtlander-B-serial-transition-to-Portrait-Objectiv-serial-engraving-amp-Nomenclature&p=1645764&viewfull=1#post1645764

[lungovw]

Hello, I just acquired a Voigtlander lens. Serial number is 23494. It is a Petzval type but the one redesigned by Sommer. The separated doublet at the rear end follows the scheme on page 275 on Moritz Von Rohr book from 1899 (attached). I did not measure the radius on glass surfaces, but the sequence flat/convex followed by an external meniscus resembles totally that Sommer version. It has a number 6 engraved on barrel. No letters, just 6. I measured the focal length and it is 335 mm. Entrance pupil is about 95mm and that gives me f/3.5. I am confused about what lens is that. I read that between the traditional Petzval design and the portrait lens with a cemented rear doublet Sommer had introduced a lens f/2.7. This one I have matches the design, but it is not a all a f/2.7. I still need to go through this thread and maybe the answer is already here. Anyway, here is another Voigtlander lens for the database from the transition period.
245462
245463
245464
245465

[mhayashi]

Dear Wagner,
Thank you for your detailed analysis and regression calculation.
Yours was made in 1878, the important year when Voigtlander changed designs, relabeled lenses and introducing new optical layouts and when PWF Voigtlander died.

Your sample is NO.6 335mm f3.6 d92mm in the catalog (not NO.6B) and belongs to the 6th column from the title column and the 7th row counting from from the No.0 row. The definition of f-number in my table is just FL/front lens opening diameter for the sake of identification, not the entrance pupil technically. Let me know the front element opening diameter, which is said as “Oeffnung” in the German catalogs.
In this period, this series was the normal speed petzval series or called first series.


the sequence flat/convex
I think if you put a piece of paper on the surface of what it looks plano(flat), it should be slightly concave.



I am confused about what lens is that. I read that between the traditional Petzval design and the portrait lens with a cemented rear doublet Sommer had introduced a lens f/2.7. This one I have matches the design, but it is not a all a f/2.7.

As I said above, this lens is the next generation answer to the normal petzval layout and speed by 1878.
The first series called in this period and also said normal speed, in pararell to the faster (second series) speed Schnellarbeiter XB series.
In English catalogs, normal speed series was called "quick worker" and the faster(second) series was called "rapid worker" in this period.
Later when the normal speed series was extinct, the second XB series became the first series and was called "quick worker" and dropped the label B but only numbers like yours but the different series.
In German catalog, these confusing nicknames were always consistent unlike English catalogs, so the first normal speed series was never called Schnellarbeiter in German. It’s understandable that many people are confused with the first series and the second B series by these inconsistencies and say both are quick workers.

Voigtlander never released f2.7 design petzval you mention until Hans Hartings revised and tweeked the Sommer's original design in 1900, then labeled the new design as Portrait-Objectiv Ia, which is not f2.7 but f2.2-f2.4 in the last column in my summary table.

The close f2.7 is No.4 petzval with the traditional petzval layout before 1878 but this design was there around 1845 before Hans Sommer started to work for Voigtlander. So it has nothing to do with Sommer's design.

Your No.6 is not the version of the cemented rear doublet Sommer had introduced in 1879.
The cemented doublet is called “improved compound”, which was released as a supplement to exchange the rear group.
This improved compound seems not released as a standalone series as a whole lens set and ceased in production by around 1882.

There is also No.B
167mm f3.2 d52:54mm
becomes
136mm f2.7 d52:54mm
by swapping the rear group from the traditional petzval to the improved compound.

Refer to #20 self reply about the improved compound.

Or probably you mean f2.37 written in the page 275 of Rohr’s book, not f2.7.
If so, the direct descendant in terms of speed is the Portrait-Objectiv Ia. But notice the rear group of Ia is much smaller than the front but the diagram of Rohr’s shows the rear group is larger than the front group as in the traditional petzval.

But I hypothesize the normal speed No.X and the faster No.XB are both based on the Sommer’s design of the Rohr’s diagram,
Which I mention in the lower right in the flowchart pdf as well as the rear glued compound.
There is at least one difference between the Rohr’s optical layout diagram and XB’s and X’s series.
The front achromat rear most surface curvature r3 of Rohr’s is convex but concave for the latters.
On the other hand, r3 of Ia is convex.
These optical layout is denoted by the legends like C, V, P and A in both my table and flowchart.

Also note the XB series optical layout has changed from the tranditional petzval layout for No.3B, 4B, and 5B to the Dallmeyer layout sometime in 1879 to 1880. No.6B and 7B were the Dallmeyer layout from the beginning.
These changes are described in the generation 5 and post-5 in the summary table.

[mhayashi]

Dear Wagner,
I updated the sample listing based on your sample analysis.
Also I made a minor correction in the transition table summary.
pdfs are available in the #6 reply.

Btw, your Orthoskop in your homepage is No.2, 377mm d52:35mm.