Taking film in and out of the freezer

[Ben]

Is there any risk to taking film in and out of the freezer?

I tend to keep the film in the freezer and take it out to room temperature the night before the shoot for it to warm up properly (to avoid condensation). I load the film the next morning.

I then put it back any unused film back in the freezer.

Is there any risk to the film going back and forth?

I shoot transparency film almost exclusively.

[nolindan]

I make it a practice to take film straight from the freezer, load it in the camera or film holder and shoot it. And I'm not being facetious, I really do - hoping to see some evidence of condensation. After 40 years of doing this I have not succeeded in seeing diddly squat. Maybe if I lived in southern Florida and kept the freezer on the back porch, but I doubt it.

In my book condensation on frozen film is up there with waiting two hours after eating before going in the water.

But what the hey, letting the film warm for 12 hours doesn't hurt it and if it makes people happy and soothes their nerves - well there are worse things.

[maltfalc]

don't put open film back in the freezer.

[eric black]

If it is sealed throughout the process, no issues. Humidity and unsealed conditions with repeated cold to room temp to cold is where the issues occur.

[Alan9940]

I've done that with sheet film for 40+ years without issue. When I'm finished loading the holders, I put the film back in the bag, run my hand from the closed end to the open end to get as much air out as possible, fold over, put back in box, and the whole thing goes back into a Ziplock bag with as much air removed as possible.

[_tf_]

Given the humidity around here is usually around 60+%, once a film pack is open, the emulsion will absorb some water, so I only freeze unopened film for long term storage, once a pack is open, it goes into the fridge instead. Film will keep long time in the fridge without being frozen.

[Ben]

So:
- If the box of sheet film is unopened and sealed, it can be taken out of the freezer and put back in.
- Once a box of sheet film is open, it cannot go back in the freezer, but it can back go into the fridge (inside a ziplock bag with as little air in as possible).

Would everyone agree that this is the correct protocol?

[Michael R]

Ben, how long do you expect it to take you to use the film? What is the normal ambient temperature in your house? Just asking because it might not be necessary to freeze it and risk ruining it.

[nolindan]

Would everyone agree that this is the correct protocol?

No. Absolutely not. Think what a boring place the world would be if everyone agreed.

I double bag using freezer zip-locs when re-freezing open packets of film to prevent freezer burn.

Do what thou wilt, harm none, and take lots of pictures while so doing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2IpqvvlT24

[Ben Calwell]

My two cents: I’ve never stored my black-and-white film in the freezer or fridge. I just make sure the box stays in a cool, dry place at room temperature. Never had any problems, or at least none that I recognize. In fact, I’ve got a box of 8x10 Tri-X that’s more than 15 years old, stored at room temp, and it gives, to my eye, decent results.

[Ben]

Ben, how long do you expect it to take you to use the film? What is the normal ambient temperature in your house? Just asking because it might not be necessary to freeze it and risk ruining it.

Michael, what makes you say that you risk ruining the film by freezing it? House is around 24-25 degrees Celcius. I don't know when I will use that particular film, so keeping it in the freezer keeps it on the safe side.

[Kiwi7475]

I would say it can depend in exactly how it’s done, meaning, how well you remove air, humidity levels, etc.
You could easily do a worst case test for your own case by taking 5 or so sheets and putting them in the freezer. Over a couple of weeks take one, refreeze the rest, wait a day or two, etc. take some shot at home of the same thing, develop, and see if you see any ill issues. You can then leave a last sheet for a month and repeat. In this way you’ve pretty much tested all the variables and can feel safe about proceeding with freezing larger quantities. Or not, if the tests show issues.

This is what I did before freezing very expensive color 8x10 boxes.

[Ben]

I double bag using freezer zip-locs when re-freezing open packets of film to prevent freezer burn.


Yes, I do double bag with Zip-Lock bags. The question is if you take film in and out of the freezer, does it cause problems?

[Ben]

My two cents: I’ve never stored my black-and-white film in the freezer or fridge. I just make sure the box stays in a cool, dry place at room temperature. Never had any problems, or at least none that I recognize. In fact, I’ve got a box of 8x10 Tri-X that’s more than 15 years old, stored at room temp, and it gives, to my eye, decent results.

Black-and-white is a different ballgame. The question is specific to color transparency.

[Ben]

I would say it can depend in exactly how it’s done, meaning, how well you remove air, humidity levels, etc.
You could easily do a worst case test for your own case by taking 5 or so sheets and putting them in the freezer. Over a couple of weeks take one, refreeze the rest, wait a day or two, etc. take some shot at home of the same thing, develop, and see if you see any ill issues. You can then leave a last sheet for a month and repeat. In this way you’ve pretty much tested all the variables and can feel safe about proceeding with freezing larger quantities. Or not, if the tests show issues.

This is what I did before freezing very expensive color 8x10 boxes.

Has anyone on the forum done a similar test?

[nolindan]

Nicholas, this is science, not art. The question is how to handle film and how to avoid condensation when refreezing film.

I'm not sure where I mentioned 'art'.

In any case, I am approaching the question from a scientific point of view and my conclustion is there is no condensation: Experimentally - I've tried to make it happen and it doesn't (or at least, I can't - can anyone?); Theoretically - the heat capacity of film is just too low, especially compared with the heat capacity of camera bodies, pressure plates and film holders - even the air - and the enthalpy of condensation is too high.

There is, obviously, no condensation when refreezing film. Take something from inside a warm house and put it outside in subfreezing weather and see if it develops dew. If you put something warm and dewy outside in freezing weather the dew evaporates and the surrounding area frosts up. Film can get freezer burn if the film has air circulation around it or it is packed badly and the water in the gelatin evaporates and ice crystals may form.

How to do something so as to avoid something that never happens - well, that is indeed an art.

[Michael R]

Freeze-thaw-freeze-thaw... cycles, especially after the film is opened - I'm not saying don't do it, just that it does present some risk, so I was just curious to know more about the situation to try and get a sense of whether or not freezing the film at all was necessary (everything is a risk/reward balance).

Since it is colour film and you don't know when you will be using it, freezing it is probably a good idea. However once you begin using it, I wouldn't necessarily keep re-freezing it unless you think it will take a long time to go through the opened envelope/box.

I'll back out at this point since you seem to be getting all sorts of answers and I don't want to add too much confusion.


Michael, what makes you say that you risk ruining the film by freezing it? House is around 24-25 degrees Celcius. I don't know when I will use that particular film, so keeping it in the freezer keeps it on the safe side.

[nolindan]

I'll back out at this point since you seem to be getting all sorts of answers and I don't want to add too much confusion.

"Confusion will be my epitaph ..."

A certain amount of confusion is necessary. The thing to look out for is too much certainty.

It is funny that noise interferes with information, and yet the most densely compressed information is indistinguishable from noise.


* * *

I think good practice in any forum is to simply state one's experience or knowledge and not to disparage or disagree with any of the other posters - don't challenge them, don't insult them - and only comment when the comment is constructive to the quoted post.

Let the reader, and the OP, choose from among the various viewpoints.

[Ben Calwell]

Black-and-white is a different ballgame. The question is specific to color transparency.

Oops. Sorry, I didn’t read the post very carefully.

[Sal Santamaura]

The archive here has good information:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?84366-More-Kodak-discontinuations&p=817242&viewfull=1#post817242

If your transparency film is Kodak, I'd have no issue storing the factory-sealed packets in a frost-free refrigerator's freezer compartment. I place the boxes in recloseable zipper-locking laminated aluminized polyester anti-static bags that were available to me in excess. The complete water vapor impermeability of those bags has ensured that even after a decade, there's not the slightest hint of "freezer smell" when removing sheet film boxes from them. After opening film packets, I store remaining sheets only in the low-humidity refrigerator compartment. They never go back into the freezer.

There have been reports of Fuji sheet film that was stored in its factory-sealed packets sticking together after freezer storage. I'm not sure whether Fuji's humidity control at the packaging stage is less effective than Kodak's, but might be more concerned if you're using Fuji sheet film.

Finally, if you'd really like to delve into the reasons for all this, knock yourself out:


http://www.wilhelm-research.com/subzero/MMG_Allowable_Temp_and_RH.pdf

[maltfalc]

I'm not sure where I mentioned 'art'.

In any case, I am approaching the question from a scientific point of view and my conclustion is there is no condensation: Experimentally - I've tried to make it happen and it doesn't (or at least, I can't - can anyone?); Theoretically - the heat capacity of film is just too low, especially compared with the heat capacity of camera bodies, pressure plates and film holders - even the air - and the enthalpy of condensation is too high.

There is, obviously, no condensation when refreezing film. Take something from inside a warm house and put it outside in subfreezing weather and see if it develops dew. If you put something warm and dewy outside in freezing weather the dew evaporates and the surrounding area frosts up. Film can get freezer burn if the film has air circulation around it or it is packed badly and the water in the gelatin evaporates and ice crystals may form.

How to do something so as to avoid something that never happens - well, that is indeed an art.you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're no scientist. take something containing warm, moist air from inside a house and put it outside in subfreezing weather and you will absolutely get condensation on the inside of the outer layer. camera bag, lens, film bag, whatever. any time air comes in contact with something cold enough to drop it below the dew point, you get condensation. doesn't matter if it's air surrounding a cold object (eg film) or air contained in an object (eg film bag) that's being cooled by the surrounding cold air.

[Ben]

I'm not sure where I mentioned 'art'.


I was referring to your statement that differences in opinions/approach is welcomed, which is true with photography, but as we're discussing the technical aspects of film, in particularly the chemistry properties and how it should be stored to avoid condensation, surely you'd want consensus.

There's guidelines on how to store film properly and the correct temperatures and warmup times by both Kodak and Fuji, but there's no specific information about taking film in and out of the freezer and how that impacts condensation.

[Ben]

The archive here has good information:


https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?84366-More-Kodak-discontinuations&p=817242&viewfull=1#post817242

If your transparency film is Kodak, I'd have no issue storing the factory-sealed packets in a frost-free refrigerator's freezer compartment. I place the boxes in recloseable zipper-locking laminated aluminized polyester anti-static bags that were available to me in excess. The complete water vapor impermeability of those bags has ensured that even after a decade, there's not the slightest hint of "freezer smell" when removing sheet film boxes from them. After opening film packets, I store remaining sheets only in the low-humidity refrigerator compartment. They never go back into the freezer.

There have been reports of Fuji sheet film that was stored in its factory-sealed packets sticking together after freezer storage. I'm not sure whether Fuji's humidity control at the packaging stage is less effective than Kodak's, but might be more concerned if you're using Fuji sheet film.

Finally, if you'd really like to delve into the reasons for all this, knock yourself out:


http://www.wilhelm-research.com/subzero/MMG_Allowable_Temp_and_RH.pdf

Thank you for the info.

I'm referring to mainly Fuji transparency sheet film. I don't know if Kodak film is less or more effective than Fuji.

I use a normal fridge/freezer where I keep my food, so humidity is not measured or controlled.

[nolindan]

... as we're discussing the technical aspects of film, in particularly the chemistry properties and how it should be stored to avoid condensation, surely you'd want consensus.

Not at all. Consensus is something one should be suspicious of; well, at least I am.

I seem to be a voice of one here - saying condensation is not an issue - and on this I will not concede. I will be as a Senator from West Virginia.

I mean, it's not like freezing & thawing film is something important and good for at least a dozen pages of interminable discussion - not like using or not using a stop bath or if one should put a sheet of photographic paper under a grain magnifier.


...
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.
...
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.




William Butler Yeats

[Tin Can]

2015 I was tipped to a pile of 8X10 Fuji Tungsten it was in a leaking fridge in a Very Large Pro Studio.

I took it all for free. Any open and re-closed was stuck together, the sealed Fuji is not damaged, but older now.

I sent a few sheets to a member, he shot it and processed it. Usable for my plans...still aging it

The Chicago studio had a 4 truck loading dock, cars could drive in from the other side

Stacks of studio gear, a dozen Hasselblad on very tall studio stands, lenses removed

Props up the wazoo

Second floor for sets

[Willie]

Close and re-seal the open packets after you load your holders. Should be good.

Based mainly on using sheet film and carrying the holder bags from warm house to vehicle - 65-72 to -40(f). Some holders went through this more than 30 times over a few months and on occasion left in the vehicle overnight in below zero temperatures. No problems showed up on having the E-6 processed.

If you are worried, why not a dessicant pouch or container of some kind and keep the film in an air tight container between loading and unloading?

[Two23]

I think it all depends on how much humidity you are dealing with. Not much where I live, especially in winter. I remove box from freezer, load my holders, put the box back in the freezer. And then go outside where it's often colder than my freezer.:D


Kent in SD

[Alan Klein]

you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're no scientist. take something containing warm, moist air from inside a house and put it outside in subfreezing weather and you will absolutely get condensation on the inside of the outer layer. camera bag, lens, film bag, whatever. any time air comes in contact with something cold enough to drop it below the dew point, you get condensation. doesn't matter if it's air surrounding a cold object (eg film) or air contained in an object (eg film bag) that's being cooled by the surrounding cold air.

Isn't it the opposite? If you take your camera used outside in cold weather and bring it into a warm house, then condensation occurs. Not the other way around. That's why you don't open the sealed cold film pack from the freezer until it has thawed out to room temperature.

[Jim Noel]

Since at my advanced age I don't use film as fast as I once did, I refreeze it.
I take it from the freezer, load it, then put it back in it's bag and box. Then it goes into a freezer bag and as much air as possible is sucked out and the bag sealed automatically. This is the same process I use to freeze food for long time storage.

[Kiwi7475]

Isn't it the opposite? If you take your camera used outside in cold weather and bring it into a warm house, then condensation occurs. Not the other way around. That's why you don't open the sealed cold film pack from the freezer until it has thawed out to room temperature.

Correct. Condensation is about cooling air to its dew point, or saturating it with water vapor so that it cannot hold more water. The typical condensation around a soda can happens when warm air hits the cold surface, it reaches its dew point and condenses. So you need to cool the air by an object to create condensation around that object.

Conversely, if you bring air into a freezer, the moisture in that air will condense out once the temperature of that air drops below the initial dewpoint of the air. That can definitely happen when you (re)freeze a box if air is trapped. That’s why removing air is critical in freezing anything — food and film alike. And why it’s riskier to re-freeze film even if you try to remove it the best you can. Whether it will impact your particular case depends on your local temperature and humidity level and your technique to remove air.

Which is why I suggested to OP to do a test because no amount if anecdotal evidence can guarantee that it will work OK for someone. It’s a simple test to do before you start freezing hundred’s if not thousand’s of dollars. Well, film that costs that much, anyway [emoji3]

[maltfalc]

Isn't it the opposite? If you take your camera used outside in cold weather and bring it into a warm house, then condensation occurs. Not the other way around. That's why you don't open the sealed cold film pack from the freezer until it has thawed out to room temperature.

that's not the opposite of what i said, that's half of what i said. any time you cool air down past the dew point you get condensation. doesn't matter if that air is inside a plastic bag of film being cooled because you just placed it in a freezer or the air that gets into the bag when you open it and is cooled by the cold film you just took out of the freezer. if you take your camera outside in cold weather the indoor air in your camera will cool down and cause condensation.

[maltfalc]

Correct. Condensation is about cooling air to its dew point, or saturating it with water vapor so that it cannot hold more water. The typical condensation around a soda can happens when warm air hits the cold surface, it reaches its dew point and condenses. So you need to cool the air by an object to create condensation around that object.

you're just saying exactly what i said in the comment he's objecting to...

[Kiwi7475]

By the way, depending on temperature and humidity level, you can also condense out if you keep film in the fridge — it’s not only a freezer issue. For example at 50% relative humidity, the dew point of air at a temperature of 12C is about 2-3C which is the typical cooling temperature of a fridge.

[Alan Klein]

You could also use silica desiccant packs to help keep the film dry in the freezer and elsewhere. Just stick the film and silica packs in a ZipLock. The packs absorb moisture.
https://www.amazon.com/Dry-Premium-Packets-Desiccant-Dehumidifiers/dp/B00DYKTS9C

[popdoc]

It’s been a while since there’s been a post to this thread.

Waking it up a bit because I finally found where to get big enough bags inexpensively to store 8 x 10 in film.

Restaurant Depot is located in most major cities.

I found 13 x 15.6“ Ziploc-style freezerbags.
Perfect!
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230528/aec524c55f31efd01b7e0f4e11355ae0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230528/9d1e9adaf2ef97cca385a591278e6611.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230528/204ba77d2368f610eaea438761a53e27.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230528/424230ef2327aa34b0f525aad9f35288.jpg



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[Alan Klein]

Put a couple of silica gel packets in the bag to absorb any remaining water vapor and humidity.

[darr]

I have been pulling the film out of the freezer, stowed in freezer bags, and letting it adjust to room temperature before loading holders for 40 years with no issues.
Once I am done loading, the leftover film returns to the freezer. Repeat again and again. No issues ever.

[ASA1000]

vacuum sealed bags for the freezer. I used to separate 100 sheets into 10 sheet packs and suck the air out of them with a food vacuum sealer.