in-camera negatives for Salt Printing?

[paulbarden]

I am trying to work out the technical issues regarding Salt Printing (Using the gelatin sizing approach), and I would ideally like to produce negatives of the correct contrast rather than making digital negatives with an inkjet printer.
However, I am finding it very difficult to get a negative with sufficient contrast. Yesterday I made some 4x5 negs on HP5+ and I chose FX-37 as the developer, because my previous experience with it showed me that it was capable of building significant contrast if you used longer than recommended times. However, yesterday I exposed the HP5 at 600 ASA and did an N+2 development and still the negative was not contrasty enough to get a good salt print.

Can anyone with experience in the process recommend a film + developer combination that is more likely to yield a negative appropriate for Salt Printing? I have Delta 100 available to experiment with - would that be a better choice? I've found HP5 to be rather flat in general, so maybe I just chose the wrong film?

Thanks!
Here's what I got yesterday:221826

[Michael R]

Most medium speed or high speed films will get pretty contrasty if you develop enough but I'm not sure specifically what type of density range is typical for this process. Some suggestions:

-Try overdeveloping in HC-110. HC-110 will tend to give a more "upswept" curve and builds contrast more easily than some other developers. Another option to try could be Ilford PQ Universal for low fog/high contrast. Try with Delta 100 since you have it on hand.

-Try a staining developer with lots of development since the stain density adds to the silver density for more contrast

-Intensify the negative (or try selenium toner intensification) in conjunction with the above

TMY-2 can quite easily build significantly more high value density than many other films, however it is very expensive

[Tin Can]

Try X-Ray

[BrianShaw]

Hi Paul. I’m viewing on my phone with whatever limitations that has… but I wouldn’t be disappointed in that print. :)

[Tracy Storer]

Be careful of overdevelopment, you want the shadow areas of your neg to be quite clear, it's as important as sufficient density in the highlights. I've only printed Salt from vintage collodion negs in a workshop at GEM with Mark Osterman, but he kept referring to "void" in the negs.

[Greg]

Back in 2016 I did a lot of testing.

Here are the final combinations that I had decided on:
FP4+ ASA 50 Rodinal 1:25 17 min 68 degrees average density range 2.23
FP4+ ASA 100 HC-110 1:4 10 minutes 68 degrees average density range 2.57
FP4+ ASA 100 HC-110 1:4 16 minutes 68 degrees average density range 2.58
HP5+ ASA 320 HC-110 1:4 10 minutes 68 degrees average density range 2.15
HP5+ ASA 320 HC-110 1:4 6 minutes 68 degrees average density range 2.41

Base + Fog 0.09-0.11 for FP4+ and 0.20-0.24 for HP5+

In the end I decided on using FP4+ ASA 50 Rodinal 1:25 17 min 68 degrees average density range 2.23

Processing in JOBO 3005 drum atop a SST4 processor at its middle speed. 2 minute pre-soak of distilled water.
1,000 ml of developer for 5 sheets of 8x10 film. 500 ml for pre-wash, stop bath, and fix.
Exposure metering was done by taking incident readings... it just worked 95% of the time.
"Average density range" was for negatives exposed on a sunny day.

I've never had much luck shooting and processing X-Ray film. Very seldom any problems with FP4+ over the years. I have to admire those who shoot and process X-Ray films. I have used X-Ray film for testing my lenses, and minor problems seem to always hound my technique.

Past two years other projects have prevented me from shooting for and making salt prints. Hopefully get back to Salt, Ziatype, and Platinum/Palladium come spring 2022.

Happy to answer any questions...

[paulbarden]

Thank you all for your suggestions. Greg, this was especially insightful and I will save your comments for future reference. Thank you. I always have FP4 on hand so this is what I will work with until such time I see a reason to go elsewhere. FP4 is one of my top 3 films already.

Ideally, I would like to stick with a developer I already have or can make at home. I did some looking at Sandy King's web site and I see he has plenty of data for developing specific films to specific CI with Pyrocat HD, so this is what I am going to pursue now. I just processed two test sheets of FP4 with Pyrocat at 2:2:100 for 18 minutes, and it looks much more promising than yesterday's HP5 tests. (Totally clear shadow areas, and very dense highlights) I will be printing one of these negs this evening to see how they do.

Tracy, I understand what you're saying here. I already make collodion glass negatives and I know how to build plenty of contrast (and voids) for alt printing processes. But I would also like to find a way to make negatives with similar traits that don't require Photoshop and a printer.

[NHE]

Delta 100 works wonderfully for making negatives for palladium, so it should also work pretty well for salt prints. The developer I use is PC-TEA. I expose from 50-100 depending on the contrast of the scene. The density range of my palladium mixture is around 2.4 from pure black to pure white. The density range of important details is in the 1.4-1.7 range.

That print looks pretty nice to me as well, it’s possible you could need just a little more exposure as the rebate area of the negative isn’t quite as black as the area around it.

[paulbarden]

Delta 100 works wonderfully for making negatives for palladium, so it should also work pretty well for salt prints. The developer I use is PC-TEA. I expose from 50-100 depending on the contrast of the scene. The density range of my palladium mixture is around 2.4 from pure black to pure white. The density range of important details is in the 1.4-1.7 range.

That print looks pretty nice to me as well, it’s possible you could need just a little more exposure as the rebate area of the negative isn’t quite as black as the area around it.

Thanks for that - I do plan on making some Delta 100 negatives coupled with Pyrocat HD and see how well those fare in Salt Printing. I printed that first negative again, aiming to get closer to D-max in the rebate area, but all that did was get me a very dark print that had highlights that went far too dark. That negative is not ideal for this process.
The FP4 negative I made yesterday (processed in Pyrocat as Sandy King recommended to achieve a CI of about .95) printed very well:

221858

I pulled a glass plate negative (Foma emulsion on glass, hand poured) out of storage to make a salt print, and it had a very high contrast that worked well also:
221859

So, I think I have a good starting point for making negatives for the Salt process. Thank you for your suggestions, everyone.

[Jim Noel]

FP4+ in Pyrocat HD works wonders for my negatives to be printed on salted paper. Paper also comes into the picture more than it does with any other process I use. I use Fox-Talbot's original notes as to paper, salt formula, etc.

[robshepherd]

Hi Paul,

I have made a few salt prints using the negatives I've developed specifically for palladium printing. For salt printing, Terry King has mentioned a density of 1.8-2.0. I target 1.4 for palladium and can make a beautiful pd print from a negative like that. I believe the higher density range required for salt is due to the self-masking while the image prints out.

I use FP4 rated at 64, and develop in D76 straight. For a normal contrast scene my time at 68* is 16 minutes. N+1 = 22.5 minutes. N-1 = 11.25 minutes. I know I can get to 2.0 with the D76 straight because I've done it accidentally while working out my development times.

I hope this helps! Regards, Rob

[paulbarden]

FP4+ in Pyrocat HD works wonders for my negatives to be printed on salted paper. Paper also comes into the picture more than it does with any other process I use. I use Fox-Talbot's original notes as to paper, salt formula, etc.

Thanks for that Jim. I'm currently using the recipes/process as outlined in Quinn Jacobson's 2019 edition of Chemical Pictures, and it seems to work quite well. Where can I see Fox-Talbot's original writings on the subject?

This morning I printed a home made dry plate negative from last July, made with the Foma Liquid Emulsion. It seems to be an excellent match for salt printing, in regard to contrast. This is a 5x7 glass neg, contact printed on 8x10 Bergger Cot 160:
221864

Here it is cropped closer:
221865

[paulbarden]

Hi Paul,

I have made a few salt prints using the negatives I've developed specifically for palladium printing. For salt printing, Terry King has mentioned a density of 1.8-2.0. I target 1.4 for palladium and can make a beautiful pd print from a negative like that. I believe the higher density range required for salt is due to the self-masking while the image prints out.

I use FP4 rated at 64, and develop in D76 straight. For a normal contrast scene my time at 68* is 16 minutes. N+1 = 22.5 minutes. N-1 = 11.25 minutes. I know I can get to 2.0 with the D76 straight because I've done it accidentally while working out my development times.

I hope this helps! Regards, Rob

Thanks for the suggestions, Rob, much appreciated. It appears that what you're describing is close to what I am doing now, with the exception of the choice of developers ( I will try D-76 as well, but Pyrocat HD seems to work beautifully too)
I suspect you mean Sandy King, no?

[robshepherd]

Hi Paul! Terry King writes about salt prints in John Barnier's Coming into Focus published in 2000. Sandy King is in the book too with an article on carbon printing.

As for developer, so many will work of course. I started using it because Dick Arentz published a very comprehensive chart for D76 and FP4 and it seemed like a good idea to use his numbers as a starting point. I'm glad I did!

Regards, Rob

[esearing]

FP4+ in Pyrocat HD works wonders for my negatives to be printed on salted paper.

I just started salt print testing a couple of weeks ago but so far FP4+ negatives developed in Pyrocat-M that normally print on VC Grades 1.5-2 seem to have enough contrast for salt prints. Those that require grade 3+ do not work very well. The main difference I see is the very matte image seems to have more open shadows or not fully black/brown. If you have a step wedge copy it and process with developer of choice with Normal and N+ times and test with those. That should give you an idea if you need to expand or not.

[jnantz]

Hi Paul
Azo is silver chloride paper, kind of /sort of like salt prints. If you have processed negatives for Azo, Lodima or Lupex papers you might see if they are close to the right magic to make your prints.
Those dry plates look like beautiful!
Good Luck!
John

[Gary Samson]

Please see the attached link below. The recommended film and developer combination is Ilford FP4+ and PMK Pyro.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

Gary Samson

[Tin Can]

Thanks Gary!

I knew of this treatise, but wasn't ready back then




Please see the attached link below. The recommended film and developer combination is Ilford FP4+ and PMK Pyro.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

Gary Samson

[paulbarden]

Hi Paul
Azo is silver chloride paper, kind of /sort of like salt prints. If you have processed negatives for Azo, Lodima or Lupex papers you might see if they are close to the right magic to make your prints.
Those dry plates look like beautiful!
Good Luck!
John

Hi John.
No, I have not produced negatives for Azo type prints before. That's unfamiliar territory, but I appreciate the reference point!


Please see the attached link below. The recommended film and developer combination is Ilford FP4+ and PMK Pyro.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

Gary Samson

Thank you Gary, I'll study that document. I am sure it will be most helpful. I note that there are several references to using FP4 (one of my favorites) with either PMK or Pyrocat HD, so it appears that many people have come to the same relative conclusions about crafting a negative for salt printing. I appreciate the link, thanks.

[jnantz]

Hi John.
No, I have not produced negatives for Azo type prints before. That's unfamiliar territory, but I appreciate the reference point!



Thank you Gary, I'll study that document. I am sure it will be most helpful. I note that there are several references to using FP4 (one of my favorites) with either PMK or Pyrocat HD, so it appears that many people have come to the same relative conclusions about crafting a negative for salt printing. I appreciate the link, thanks.

hi again Paul
I searched around for you for densitometry readings ( if you like that sort of thing ) and pyro info
sandy king's site had some information specifically about pyro and azo ...
http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/pyro-staining-developers
as I said its the the same as salt prints but like a 1st cousin once removed so it might give you a starting point ..
at least for densitometry readings if nothing else.
good luck!
John

[Vaughn]

Terry King was mentioned above. He recommended FP4 developed in Ilford's PQ Universal developer for platinum prints (I vaguely remember something about the midtones expanding nicely along with the higher values) and I have used it for negatives to be used for platinum and for carbon processes. Alas, I believe the formula has changed in the last few years. I have also used Dektol successfully to significantly increase the contrast of negatives taken of low-contrast scenes.

I have used HP5, but find that it does not respond to increased development as much as FP4. Best of luck in finding a good combination!

[paulbarden]

Terry King was mentioned above. He recommended FP4 developed in Ilford's PQ Universal developer for platinum prints (I vaguely remember something about the midtones expanding nicely along with the higher values) and I have used it for negatives to be used for platinum and for carbon processes. Alas, I believe the formula has changed in the last few years. I have also used Dektol successfully to significantly increase the contrast of negatives taken of low-contrast scenes.

I have used HP5, but find that it does not respond to increased development as much as FP4. Best of luck in finding a good combination!

Thank you Vaughn. I had considered doing some tests with Dektol to make an appropriate negative, so I will add that to the list of things to try. And I will look up Terry King's writings on the subject, thanks.

I won't be using HP5 for any of the salt print tests. My experience with HP5 has left me cold - it lacks "sparkle" in the upper values; its a useful quality for portraiture (smoothing out pale skin tones) but for what I do, its nowhere near as good as FP4 (Or Delta 100, for that matter). HP5 is a fine emulsion, but it doesn't get me where I want to go, so its going to be FP4 and/or Delta 100.

[Jim Noel]

Thanks for that Jim. I'm currently using the recipes/process as outlined in Quinn Jacobson's 2019 edition of Chemical Pictures, and it seems to work quite well. Where can I see Fox-Talbot's original writings on the subject?

This morning I printed a home made dry plate negative from last July, made with the Foma Liquid Emulsion. It seems to be an excellent match for salt printing, in regard to contrast. This is a 5x7 glass neg, contact printed on 8x10 Bergger Cot 160:
221864

Here it is cropped closer:
221865

To find Fox-Talbot's original notes you will have to do as I did, spend time searching through texts in England written by him. Ii did this so many years ago I have forgotten the sources. I took copious notes at the time and these are what i went by. Now this is committed to memory, not computer notes.

[paulbarden]

Today I made some test prints using a 5x7 wet plate collodion negative I made specifically for this process, to see how much density/contrast is needed.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51728546650_ff07b1a185_b.jpg

Printed on Bergger COT 320 paper, and gold toned.

[paulbarden]

Please see the attached link below. The recommended film and developer combination is Ilford FP4+ and PMK Pyro.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/15614798.pdf

Gary Samson

Gary, I have to say - this paper has provided heaps of excellent information, and I am grateful to you for posting the link. Thank you!

I see that Ellie subsequently published a book on Salt Printing - anyone have the book and know whether it contains more information than the paper linked to here? I'd gladly buy a copy, but would be disappointed to discover its the same content as in the PDF.