Cameras with geared swing movement

[helios]

I am a happy user of Chamonix F2, however, in architecture genre both front and possibly even more so rear swings are important. Rear swing on F2 is awkward. It requires two hands and is kind of unstable as once locks are released rear standard moves not only around vertical axis, but also slides freely in forward and backward direction. It’s not that it’s unusable, but I feel I would appreciate more precise, less fiddly solution.

Are there any cameras out there that are not in heavy monorails league but have geared swing movements? I was thinking of Arca Swiss F-line as “wet dream” sort of option, but it appears to have manual swing control too.

Thank you.

[rfesk]

The swing of Toyo VX125 is not geared but it surely is easy to use and does not interfere with the geared shift.

[Bob Salomon]

I am a happy user of Chamonix F2, however, in architecture genre both front and possibly even more so rear swings are important. Rear swing on F2 is awkward. It requires two hands and is kind of unstable as once locks are released rear standard moves not only around vertical axis, but also slides freely in forward and backward direction. It’s not that it’s unusable, but I feel I would appreciate more precise, less fiddly solution.

Are there any cameras out there that are not in heavy monorails league but have geared swing movements? I was thinking of Arca Swiss F-line as “wet dream” sort of option, but it appears to have manual swing control too.

Thank you.

No, more gearing man’s more weight.
A LInhof TK 45S will do everything you want, and then more, but with no geared movements othe then focus.

[Ari]

Some Wista models have micro-swing on the rear, but they are limited in their use as architectural cameras.
I'm afraid Bob's right: more gears is more weight.

[Bernice Loui]

On the Chamonix F2, looks like the two lock down knobs are loosened allowing swing of camera's rear frame ?
https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45f2

How might controlling the swing movement relative to the center of the rear frame be achieved? Seems loosening both lock knobs
allows the rear frame to slide forwards-backwards in a non-controlled manner causing difficulty achieving precise centered rear swing movement.

This the problem?
What is the lens focal length being used with rear swing?

Not convinced geared movements are the answer, and monorail cameras are NOT that much heavier than light weight field folders. As previously discussed and mentioned many times before, camera choice is a LOT more complex than what it is current view camera fashion.


Bernice

[LabRat]

I'm not crazy about geared swings/tilts... I like to be able to flick them in/out to see the effect I'm getting... In the studio or field alike...

Steve K

[mhayashi]

I’ve never felt the need of geared swing movements by using both F-line classic and metric.
Both versions have the swing axis on the center of the frame so it’s very easy to swing and lock without any stress.

[helios]

On the Chamonix F2, looks like the two lock down knobs are loosened allowing swing of camera's rear frame ?
https://www.chamonixviewcamera.com/cameras/45f2

How might controlling the swing movement relative to the center of the rear frame be achieved? Seems loosening both lock knobs
allows the rear frame to slide forwards-backwards in a non-controlled manner causing difficulty achieving precise centered rear swing movement.

This the problem?
What is the lens focal length being used with rear swing?

Not convinced geared movements are the answer, and monorail cameras are NOT that much heavier than light weight field folders. As previously discussed and mentioned many times before, camera choice is a LOT more complex than what it is current view camera fashion.


Bernice

Yes, that is precisely the problem - loosening both knobs allows too much freedom of rear standard movement. In a way it does allow rotation around the center of rear frame because both knobs are locked in slides in a way that no horizontal shift is possible. But that forward-backward movement freedom is just awkward. I kind of got used to it and developed some technique on handling it, so as I said it’s not like it’s not usable, just too loose and fiddly. Also realigning the rear standard back to zero position is awkward too, but that’s minor thing.

It’s similar on front swing where there is only one knob, loosening it allows combination of swing and shift movements.

It is largely the same problem as with rise/tilt issue on Chamonix F1 which was improved on F2 by adding dedicated knobs for those movements.

I am using and noticing this problem with any lens whenever swing is needed, but mostly using 90mm, 110mm and 180mm for architecture.

[helios]

I’ve never felt the need of geared swing movements by using both F-line classic and metric.
Both versions have the swing axis on the center of the frame so it’s very easy to swing and lock without any stress.

Thanks, that is good to know. Does it also have zero position detent?

[helios]

The swing of Toyo VX125 is not geared but it surely is easy to use and does not interfere with the geared shift.

Thank you, will check it out.

[mhayashi]

Thanks, that is good to know. Does it also have zero position detent?
Yes, it has the zero detent for swings.

[mike rosenlof]

+1 for the F-line. I think you'll find that independent locks for each movement make a big difference. The Arca is precise and easy to set up.

If you truly need geared swing, I think you're going to need a big studio camera like the Sinar P. Swing seems to be the last movement to get gears.

[neil poulsen]

The one essential for me is geared rise/fall on at least one of the front or rear standards. So much more convenient. After that, manual swings or tilt is fine.

If a medium format view camera to which one can attach a digital back, then geared shift and rise/fall on the rear is useful for stitching. Of course, an Arca Swiss Metric will have both of these geared movements on both the front and rear standards.

I've recently found out how nice geared movements on a tripod head can be. Sweet!

[Oslolens]

My 8x10" view camera has geared swing, but that's not what you asked for.
One way to remove some of the movements,
assuming you don't need all the camera length is to lock the top nut from going forward or backwards, using the bottom nut to adjust swing.

But I think you have chosen the wrong Chamonix ;)
Pictures are from my 45N-2, the swing can be done in two operations, first with the bars, lock them down, then the back has some play back and forth with the left lock, not geared, but precisely thumb-pushed..... from -7 to +6mm (-9/32"+1/4")https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211122/29d6b82dfdfeae746f4ae5af8bc2f9be.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211122/c759b71cfe8e0bab96dd9c128306874e.jpg

Sent fra min SM-G975F via Tapatalk

[alan_b]

I am a happy user of Chamonix F2, however, in architecture genre both front and possibly even more so rear swings are important. Rear swing on F2 is awkward. It requires two hands and is kind of unstable as once locks are released rear standard moves not only around vertical axis, but also slides freely in forward and backward direction. It’s not that it’s unusable, but I feel I would appreciate more precise, less fiddly solution.

Are there any cameras out there that are not in heavy monorails league but have geared swing movements? I was thinking of Arca Swiss F-line as “wet dream” sort of option, but it appears to have manual swing control too.

Thank you.

Arca Swiss M-2 has geared front swing and tilt. It's slightly heavier & bulkier than an F-line, but less than fully-geared monorails like Sinar P/2, etc. It does this by limiting movements to angular on the front, lateral on the rear - all geared. It's modular and convertible between Mirrorless/DSLR/MF/LF backs.

[Bernice Loui]

Would never tolerate any view camera with movement controls like this. Too much frustration, too much futzing around with the camera to achieve what is needed and more. Does this camera achieve rear swing movements, yes with plenty of unnecessary futzing and frustration and more..

This is the reality of light weight field folders and their innate trade-offs to achieve compact, light weight and foldable. IMO, for the majority of outdoor landscape images made at some what infinity focus and often never demanding on camera movements with the need for back packing lightweight, compact portability this camera could be near ideal. Press this same camera into image goals of combined camera movements with the need for precision/accuracy/repeatability and all those non outdoor landscape image goal needs, this same camera is not ideal at all.

Sinar example using Norma, F, P2 which has geared movements.
221538

Sinar Norma has separate swing, shift locks allowing independent control of swing and/or shift movements identical on front and rear standards.
It is common to need a slight shift in the image to reposition the image to meet the initial image composition goals. This is not gonna happen on any camera without shift on the rear standard... and moving the camera position does not achieve the same as applying rear shift camera movement.
221537

Sinar F has a single locking lever that controls swing and shift combined. This works surprisingly good.
221539

Sinar P2, swing, shift, rise-fall, tilt are geared. Works GOOD. Heavy, bulky and all that. In studio weight and all that is an asset with no significant negatives.
Outdoors, no were near ideal at all.
221540


Sinar P2 and P(has swing/tilt shift control knob) in less than mobile image needs is an absolute pleasure to use in every way. Setting camera movements as needed is easy, precise, quick and very stable once set. Yet the Norma & F without geared movements is not a lot slower or difficult. What makes the majority of this difference is the center point of the standard frame starts at center with marks or spring detent and the movements are applied at this center point. Make swing movement, the center line of the frame stays put. This is why swing camera movements are essentially easy effort. Sinar is not the only monorail camera to have swing movements like this.

Given the lens focal length set of 90mm. 110mm, 180mm better to use a bag bellows to allow full use of their available image circle. Any camera with a tapered bellows will be limiting in ways that will become apparent once camera movements are pressed to the limits of the lens image circle... and bag bellows tend to have better flare light control from the larger than needed lens image circle.



Bernice








Yes, that is precisely the problem - loosening both knobs allows too much freedom of rear standard movement. In a way it does allow rotation around the center of rear frame because both knobs are locked in slides in a way that no horizontal shift is possible. But that forward-backward movement freedom is just awkward. I kind of got used to it and developed some technique on handling it, so as I said it’s not like it’s not usable, just too loose and fiddly. Also realigning the rear standard back to zero position is awkward too, but that’s minor thing.

It’s similar on front swing where there is only one knob, loosening it allows combination of swing and shift movements.

It is largely the same problem as with rise/tilt issue on Chamonix F1 which was improved on F2 by adding dedicated knobs for those movements.

I am using and noticing this problem with any lens whenever swing is needed, but mostly using 90mm, 110mm and 180mm for architecture.

[Drew Wiley]

Hard detents have their pros and cons. If precisely tuned, these give you instant zeroing; but if you actually need just a small degree of variance from that, the detent might make it difficult to lock into that subtle position without automatically kicking back into the full zero position. Machined gearing potentially alleviates that irritation; but then you have to note the etched markings. But we seem to just get accustomed to whatever we have. The fact gearing increases size and weight, and in turns needs greater tripod support, makes it a less tempting field photography option.

With my Norma, the detents are relatively soft, which is nice (in contrast to many folder field cameras with aggressive detents); and accurate re-zeroing is easy to do yourself if necessary. And as I've previously commented somewhere, I wouldn't even want P-style gearing outdoors due to risk of blowing grit or whatever getting in the gearing, and requiring even more routine cleaning every time I came back from an outing. A clean lab or studio environment is a different logistical scenario entirely.

[Michael R]

Yup. I went through a phase when I was obsessed with alignment and accurately zeroed detents. But first you have to be sure you are truly zeroed when in the detents (not the case with most cameras, at least out of the box. And then as you note if the detents are “deep” you can have a hard time setting very small movements. I sometimes have this problem with one of my cameras. Luckily swings and tilts are the exception rather than the norm in the kind of photos I take.


Hard detents have their pros and cons. If precisely tuned, these give you instant zeroing; but if you actually need just a small degree of variance from that, the detent might make it difficult to lock into that subtle position without automatically kicking back into the full zero position. Machined gearing potentially alleviates that irritation; but then you have to note the etched markings. But we seem to just get accustomed to whatever we have. The fact gearing increases size and weight, and in turns needs greater tripod support, makes it a less tempting field photography option.

With my Norma, the detents are relatively soft, which is nice (in contrast to many folder field cameras with aggressive detents); and accurate re-zeroing is easy to do yourself if necessary. And as I've previously commented somewhere, I wouldn't even want P-style gearing outdoors due to risk of blowing grit or whatever getting in the gearing, and requiring even more routine cleaning every time I came back from an outing. A clean lab or studio environment is a different logistical scenario entirely.

[helios]

Thank you All for sharing your ideas and experience. Good discussion and tips!

I intentionally said in the beginning that I am happy user of Chamonix F2 camera. It's a gem for landscapes for obvious reasons. It's built with very high quality craftmanship, pleasant to deal with for its weight and size and yet it is very affordable. I have no issues with manual front tilt or rise at all. It's only swings that are too fiddly in my opinion, and to some extent front shift. In fact, I do achieve rear swing movements that I need, just takes a bit of patience. Another bonus is that it takes anything from WA to 300mm without the need of extension adapters, and its rock solid with full bellows draw (bellows change takes 2 min with some practice).

But indeed, it's not the best camera for shooting requiring precise perspective and focus control. Not only swings are fiddly, but it has only 45mm rise and horizontal shift is fiddly too. On the other hand, let's be fair, it was designed as outdoor landscape camera, so I am not complaining.

Both Toyo VX125 and Arca Swiss F suggested here seem like fine alternatives. Even though swings are manual, they seem to be stable and usable. Weight and bulk are certainly in limits (especially Arca newer 141mm frame format model looks attractive). The only drawback is required extra $$$, though VX125 seem to be more affordable and common on second-hand market. Sounds like time to start accumulating the budget and then eventually decide...

[Michael R]

Watch out for stripped gears in the Toyo.


Thank you All for sharing your ideas and experience. Good discussion and tips!

I intentionally said in the beginning that I am happy user of Chamonix F2 camera. It's a gem for landscapes for obvious reasons. It's built with very high quality craftmanship, pleasant to deal with for its weight and size and yet it is very affordable. I have no issues with manual front tilt or rise at all. It's only swings that are too fiddly in my opinion, and to some extent front shift. In fact, I do achieve rear swing movements that I need, just takes a bit of patience. Another bonus is that it takes anything from WA to 300mm without the need of extension adapters, and its rock solid with full bellows draw (bellows change takes 2 min with some practice).

But indeed, it's not the best camera for shooting requiring precise perspective and focus control. Not only swings are fiddly, but it has only 45mm rise and horizontal shift is fiddly too. On the other hand, let's be fair, it was designed as outdoor landscape camera, so I am not complaining.

Both Toyo VX125 and Arca Swiss F suggested here seem like fine alternatives. Even though swings are manual, they seem to be stable and usable. Weight and bulk are certainly in limits (especially Arca newer 141mm frame format model looks attractive). The only drawback is required extra $$$, though VX125 seem to be more affordable and common on second-hand market. Sounds like time to start accumulating the budget and then eventually decide...

[helios]

Yup. I went through a phase where I was obsessed with alignment and accurately zeroed detents. But first you have to be sure you are truly zeroed when in the detents (not the case with most cameras, at least out of the box. And then as you note if the detents are “deep” you can have a hard time setting very small movements. I sometimes have this problem with one of my cameras. Luckily swings and tilts are the exception rather than the norm in the kind of photos I take.

Since rear swing is for perspective control, when I need it I realize that usually it's not a tiny movement. For front tilt/swing though little movements are more common. Chamonix F2 has front tilt detent and somehow I never had issues to fine-tune the movement. It also has rear asymmetric tilt with detent and that works decently too. Though I see your point, indeed detent may not necessarily be perfect if absolutely tinies movement is needed.

[helios]

Watch out for stripped gears in the Toyo.


Thanks. Do those gears tend to wear out to the extent that external rim get broken off?

[helios]

But I think you have chosen the wrong Chamonix ;)


Haha, thanks for pointing that out. Maybe. Though 45N-2 has one knob for both front rise and tilt, which would likely be driving me nuts - possibly more than rear swing fiddling :)

[Michael R]

I’ve not personally owned a VX125 so it is second hand info, but from a highly experienced/reputable photographer I reached out to for opinion when I was looking into changing cameras. He had to have his repaired twice for stripped gears. Just something to be aware of, especially if you buy one used.


Thanks. Do those gears tend to wear out to the extent that external rim get broken off?

[Bernice Loui]

Both Toyo VX and Arca Swiss look good until one tries to find required add-ons and discover their cost -vs- capability is not good.

Look deep into this before considering either Toyo or Arca Swiss.

Again, camera MUST support the needs of the lens and all related to achieve the image goals.

Bernice




Both Toyo VX125 and Arca Swiss F suggested here seem like fine alternatives. Even though swings are manual, they seem to be stable and usable. Weight and bulk are certainly in limits (especially Arca newer 141mm frame format model looks attractive). The only drawback is required extra $$$, though VX125 seem to be more affordable and common on second-hand market. Sounds like time to start accumulating the budget and then eventually decide...

[GG12]

This is the reality of light weight field folders and their innate trade-offs to achieve compact, light weight and foldable. IMO, for the majority of outdoor landscape images made at some what infinity focus and often never demanding on camera movements with the need for back packing lightweight, compact portability this camera could be near ideal. Press this same camera into image goals of combined camera movements with the need for precision/accuracy/repeatability and all those non outdoor landscape image goal needs, this same camera is not ideal at all.



Excellent point, well said. I am going to keep rereading this every time I get frustrated with the camera at hand.

[Vaidotas]

Rear standard Sinar P/P2, front - F/F2. Quite a load, no style? Right. But on location you are set.

[helios]

Rear standard Sinar P/P2, front - F/F2. Quite a load, no style? Right. But on location you are set.

That makes a lot of sense!

To me it's not style or weight that is concerning (at 3+ kg that's still quite OK actually), it's more bulkiness/volume that Sinar F2 is taking. Though maybe it is not that bad, just needs larger backpack.

One advantage of Sinar gear seems to be spare parts availability and 2d hand market cost. In fact the cost of used Sinar F2 is so (relatively) low that I could give it a try almost without any risk compared to Arca or Toyo.

[abruzzi]

if bulkiness is a concern, the Linhof Technikardan is a great option. Its not a system camera like the AS or the Sinar, but it folds up to the size of a calculus textbook, and opens up to a monorail that can stretch almost to 500mm. Also, as has been discussed, its not geared except on rear focus, but each adjustment has its own lock and a single lock (unlike a lot of folders that have two knobs for each adjustment.) New it is quite expensive, used its less so, but its still not cheap, but after going through a number of cameras, I've decided its the perfect one for me.

[Bob Salomon]

if bulkiness is a concern, the Linhof Technikardan is a great option. Its not a system camera like the AS or the Sinar, but it folds up to the size of a calculus textbook, and opens up to a monorail that can stretch almost to 500mm. Also, as has been discussed, its not geared except on rear focus, but each adjustment has its own lock and a single lock (unlike a lot of folders that have two knobs for each adjustment.) New it is quite expensive, used its less so, but its still not cheap, but after going through a number of cameras, I've decided its the perfect one for me.

Not to forget that the movements are silky smooth, without lubricants, each movement has separate locks and tilts, on the S version, has a removable detent.

[Drew Wiley]

I just pack the Sinar F's or Norma ready to go - no need to fold anything, just extend the bellows and go from there. It forms a T, with the camera per se downward in the cushioned top part of the external frame pack, and my extra-long rail solidly resting across the top. I keep the compendium in place, and can even keep any focal length of lens already in place if I wish. What folder can do that? Even two poly boxes of 6 film holders each can nest, one box on each side of the inverted camera. I don't ordinarily carry that much film anymore, but have done so many times. And I'm speaking from the viewpoint of a long lens addict needing a lot of rail, who therefore is far more likely to remove a section of the rail for an occasional wide-angle shot than add one. A short lens kit would therefore be even more compact.

It all fits, plus, at least in my teenage days of my 40's and 50's, with up to two weeks of serious backpacking and mountain gear and supplies. Nowadays, if I want to do that kind of thing, it's more likely I will choose my little Ebony folder and a couple of 6X9 roll film backs instead. But for over three decades, I proved to myself that Sinar gear can be quite portable if you think things out. I've been some pretty rugged and remote places with it, hundreds of trips in fact. Sinar P's components - nope - that never leaves the lab/studio.

[Bernice Loui]

Ponder why SO many photographers used Sinar back in the day when 4x5 color transparency sheet film images were the primary means to printed color media?

Sinar is not just a view camera, it is a imaging system that is modular, available and can be built up as needed to meet the image making demands driven by lens and image making situations. Few other view camera systems are any where near as available, modular, precision-accurate, durable and all those qualities that make a view camera much a non-issue.

Take the time to read this previous discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)



Bernice



That makes a lot of sense!

To me it's not style or weight that is concerning (at 3+ kg that's still quite OK actually), it's more bulkiness/volume that Sinar F2 is taking. Though maybe it is not that bad, just needs larger backpack.

One advantage of Sinar gear seems to be spare parts availability and 2d hand market cost. In fact the cost of used Sinar F2 is so (relatively) low that I could give it a try almost without any risk compared to Arca or Toyo.

[Tin Can]

Horseman Studio cameras have geared everything except swing and tilt

I wonder why

Both can be progressively dampened and locked

[Bob Salomon]

Ponder why SO many photographers used Sinar back in the day when 4x5 color transparency sheet film images were the primary means to printed color media?

Sinar is not just a view camera, it is a imaging system that is modular, available and can be built up as needed to meet the image making demands driven by lens and image making situations. Few other view camera systems are any where near as available, modular, precision-accurate, durable and all those qualities that make a view camera much a non-issue.

Take the time to read this previous discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)



Bernice
Good part of the reason is because EPOI and then Sinar Bron were very free in long time demo loans to studios. I was one of those EPOI that did some of these.
The EPOI sales manager for Sinar was also very free with giving free lenses with every camera sale that he was involved with. I was once in the EPOI stock room and watched him add an off the invoice 300mm Symmar to an order that he picked and packed.
He also gave free lamp heads with every Bron system he sold, also off invoice.

[Rod Klukas]

The Arca-Swiss F-Line Metric, and the F-Line Classic, have a separate swing lock. The Arca-Swiss Monolith, has geared swing, and actually all movements are geared on the Monolith.

The F-Line cameras are not floppy in movement so very efficient and precise.

[helios]

Ponder why SO many photographers used Sinar back in the day when 4x5 color transparency sheet film images were the primary means to printed color media?

Sinar is not just a view camera, it is a imaging system that is modular, available and can be built up as needed to meet the image making demands driven by lens and image making situations. Few other view camera systems are any where near as available, modular, precision-accurate, durable and all those qualities that make a view camera much a non-issue.

Take the time to read this previous discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)



Bernice

Thank you, very interesting insights indeed.

[LabRat]

I think the overriding "secret to success" for any view camera is the ability to operate all controls by feel... That once you are under the darkcloth and eyes have adjusted, that you know exactly where and what the cameras controls are, and how they operate... With the swing, many cameras standard bearers fit together zeroed until unlocked and you can feel when they start pivoting with your fingers... Other controls are in a logical intuitive place easily reached, and can easily be re-zeroed by touch... And you can easily watch the actions of the movements on the GG as you can flick them around to see their effect...

I have used some cameras where the controls are there, but harder to test movements a little at a time, but one can learn that camera, and with previous camera movement experience, one can know what movement is needed and apply it... But there are cameras that were so well designed that it is so easy to just loosen a knob or two, wiggle the movement a little, and there is the desired effect!!!

Some top cameras are a little over-engineered with many add-on features that can complicate your set-up, but outdoor shooting often is a spur-of-the-moment thing, and is nice when the camera does what it does well with little prodding/futzing on your part... ;

Steve K

[Vaughn]

I think the overriding "secret to success" for any view camera is the ability to operate all controls by feel...

Agreed. My 4x5 is a rail camera that is about as far from a Sinar as a VW Bug is from a Porsche. But if they both get you to where you need to be, the difference is reduced to personal preferences...which is more expensive, which is more finely engineered, which has more doodads, which gives one the bigger ego boost, or which one packs easier. Then it is a matter of learning to handle the tool properly and have it respond to one's needs, in my case via the GG.

My 5x7 has geared rear swing, but as an 110+ year old Eastman View No.2, it probably will not fit the OP's specs! :cool:

Gowland PocketView, 150mm/5.6 Caltar IIN, Kodak Royal Pan, red filter, f64 for 10 seconds, 16x20 silver gelatin print
Tolaga Bay Wharf, New Zealand, 1 December 1986

[neil poulsen]

. . . To me it's not style or weight that is concerning (at 3+ kg that's still quite OK actually), it's more bulkiness/volume that Sinar F2 is taking.

With a simple customization too a Sinar six inch extension, Sinars can fit easily into a backpack . . .

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-f-4x5-as-a-viable-field-camera.172997/

Regarding independent locks for swing and shift, Sinar made (at least some) F2 front standards that have these independent locks.

The only application I can think of, where one might want geared tilt or swing, are when only adjustments are needed.

[LabRat]

But I think geared T/S movements would be most useful on a copy stand mounted camera doing extreme close-ups of small objects that are irregular in shape and the tiny DOF is helped with movements to get the most out of it...

Small items on table top are a another subject geared might help where one has time and bright modeling lights on subject, but for typical outdoor work, geared would slow down the process, as geared movements move slightly slowly and maybe too little at a time for larger more distant objects and views...

Best approach to any movement is to use as little as possible, and keep effect as natural as to be invisible as possible...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Rear swing difficult/problem with the Chamonix F2 can be fixed by using a strip of sheet sheet metal to tie the two rear frame support towers together forcing them to move in unison . Then put a pivot hole absolute on the center line of the rear frame and ground glass/film plane line to fix the center point of where the rear swing movement is applied.

This would require the connecting strip of sheet metal to be directly under the Chamonix F2's center focusing mechanism.. which would need to be modified to implement this fix. The current swing adjust slots will need to made into an arc to allow proper rear swing movement.


Bernice

[nolindan]

For architectural work I find I only need rise and shift. I can see occasions where a bit of swing might be in order, but it would be the tiniest bit.

I don't think I have used anything but rise for outdoor shots - mountains taken with a wide angle lens, getting the top of the mountain in the frame and doing so without all the trees looking like they are falling over backwards.

With 35mm and no rise I like to take mountain pictures from the vantage of an alpine meadow or a rushing stream, then the bottom half of the frame is filled with flowers or white water speeding through rocks and the top half of the frame has the mountains.

[helios]

Rear swing difficult/problem with the Chamonix F2 can be fixed by using a strip of sheet sheet metal to tie the two rear frame support towers together forcing them to move in unison . Then put a pivot hole absolute on the center line of the rear frame and ground glass/film plane line to fix the center point of where the rear swing movement is applied.

This would require the connecting strip of sheet metal to be directly under the Chamonix F2's center focusing mechanism.. which would need to be modified to implement this fix. The current swing adjust slots will need to made into an arc to allow proper rear swing movement.


Bernice

Thanks Bernice. I guess I get your point, though it seems not so easy to implement for somebody with my (rather low) level of home craftmanship skills, but maybe worth informing manufacturer for potential future improvement. In fact I wonder why they abandoned dedicated swing knobs they did on 45N-2. Possibly just weight saving.

I am seeing quite a few nice Sinar F2 offers, very affordable - likely to become my Christmas present. Can't believe new / old stock bag bellows cost 60 EUR, other parts seem to be very affordable too. Besides precision and convenience of movements controls it adds up quite a lot of movements range which is another bonus. I intend to keep using Chamonix for hikes and landscapes, it is brilliant camera for that purpose in my opinion.

[helios]

For architectural work I find I only need rise and shift. I can see occasions where a bit of swing might be in order, but it would be the tiniest bit.

Do you mean front or rear swing? I can hardly imagine architectural photography without horizontal perspective control (rear swing). But maybe it's just me, if somebody doesn't need it - that is perfectly fine.

[Randy]

... progressively dampened and locked
That's what I was going to suggest - I often loosen the swing/tilt just slightly so that the bellows can't pull/push it one way or the other, then I just apply a tad more pressure to get it where I want.

BTW, my old Gundlach wood 4X5 does have geared rear tilt but not swing.

[Bernice Loui]

Cost and complexity is likely why single lock knob/lever was not done on the 45N-2. IMO, as a light weight field folder rear camera movements are not often used and the majority of images made does not need this camera movement. Not designing and offering ease of implementing rear swing is an acceptable trade off given what the majority of users and image making needs are for a field folder.

One other factor to consider is user experience, skill level and demands placed on any view camera. For those new to view camera, setting up to make a basic image is challenge enough. Add the complexities of view camera movements adds greatly to this challenge. For many new to view camera, there is incentive to not use camera movements as it can add greatly to the challenge and complexity. For those who spent hours upon hours using a view camera in-studio and in image making demands which require pushing any view camera to the absolute limits of their movement capabilities. For those view camera folks using a view camera in this way with these demands driven by image goals, lesser view cameras are not gonna work.

If considering a Sinar F2, know many sellers do not know the difference between a F, F+, F1, F2 early and later versions. Many sellers ad media their Sinar offerings with mis-information and not knowing the differences between Sinar F cameras with all their variants over their decades of production.

Basically, the F2 has focusing on the front standard and the base of the the rail attachment is different. All F2s have a wrap around rail clamp that slides off the rail. Some have a separate lock lever for shift.
221694

This is the front standard on all Sinar F, it is very basic and often used as an auxiliary / accessory standard support for adding bellows, lens shade and any other widget that is needed to aid in achieving the image goal.
221695

Know these differences before considering any Sinar camera purchase. Sinar has their user manual on line:
https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/Sinar-p2c2fcf1-Instruction-Manual-EN.PDF

Sinar Catalog noting their system offering. Know what is listed in this catalog is backwards compatible with Sinar Norma. With Sinar it is getting involved with a modular view camera system with near complete interchangeability-modularity allowing the modules to be configured as needed.
https://www.kennethleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

And yes, there are lots of Sinar cameras, camera outfits and accessories on the market at modest cost. Knowing these are the realities of the Sinar modular view camera system makes for many rational, logical and real world reasons to get involved with the Sinar system.


Bernice



Thanks Bernice. I guess I get your point, though it seems not so easy to implement for somebody with my (rather low) level of home craftmanship skills, but maybe worth informing manufacturer for potential future improvement. In fact I wonder why they abandoned dedicated swing knobs they did on 45N-2. Possibly just weight saving.

I am seeing quite a few nice Sinar F2 offers, very affordable - likely to become my Christmas present. Can't believe new / old stock bag bellows cost 60 EUR, other parts seem to be very affordable too. Besides precision and convenience of movements controls it adds up quite a lot of movements range which is another bonus. I intend to keep using Chamonix for hikes and landscapes, it is brilliant camera for that purpose in my opinion.

[helios]

Thank you for taking time and effort to write up and share such detailed explanation. At about 500 for a mint 4x5 outfit, Sinar F2 seems to be no brainer, even to just try it out and see how it goes with movements, bulk etc. Even if it will require backpack and tripod+head upgrade for me.


Cost and complexity is likely why single lock knob/lever was not done on the 45N-2. IMO, as a light weight field folder rear camera movements are not often used and the majority of images made does not need this camera movement. Not designing and offering ease of implementing rear swing is an acceptable trade off given what the majority of users and image making needs are for a field folder.

One other factor to consider is user experience, skill level and demands placed on any view camera. For those new to view camera, setting up to make a basic image is challenge enough. Add the complexities of view camera movements adds greatly to this challenge. For many new to view camera, there is incentive to not use camera movements as it can add greatly to the challenge and complexity. For those who spent hours upon hours using a view camera in-studio and in image making demands which require pushing any view camera to the absolute limits of their movement capabilities. For those view camera folks using a view camera in this way with these demands driven by image goals, lesser view cameras are not gonna work.

If considering a Sinar F2, know many sellers do not know the difference between a F, F+, F1, F2 early and later versions. Many sellers ad media their Sinar offerings with mis-information and not knowing the differences between Sinar F cameras with all their variants over their decades of production.

Basically, the F2 has focusing on the front standard and the base of the the rail attachment is different. All F2s have a wrap around rail clamp that slides off the rail. Some have a separate lock lever for shift.
221694

This is the front standard on all Sinar F, it is very basic and often used as an auxiliary / accessory standard support for adding bellows, lens shade and any other widget that is needed to aid in achieving the image goal.
221695

Know these differences before considering any Sinar camera purchase. Sinar has their user manual on line:
https://sinar.swiss/assets/Uploads/Sinar-p2c2fcf1-Instruction-Manual-EN.PDF

Sinar Catalog noting their system offering. Know what is listed in this catalog is backwards compatible with Sinar Norma. With Sinar it is getting involved with a modular view camera system with near complete interchangeability-modularity allowing the modules to be configured as needed.
https://www.kennethleegallery.com/pdf/Sinar_system_katalog.pdf

And yes, there are lots of Sinar cameras, camera outfits and accessories on the market at modest cost. Knowing these are the realities of the Sinar modular view camera system makes for many rational, logical and real world reasons to get involved with the Sinar system.


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Post questions and image making needs as they come up. We will be here for. you.

Bernice




Thank you for taking time and effort to write up and share such detailed explanation. At about 500 for a mint 4x5 outfit, Sinar F2 seems to be no brainer, even to just try it out and see how it goes with movements, bulk etc. Even if it will require backpack and tripod+head upgrade for me.

[j.e.simmons]

Warning - there is Sinar creep. First a Sinar, then a few extra lens boards, then a bag bellows, next you’re shopping for the little kit that lets you use the extra bellows to shade the lens, then a Sinar shutter, then a couple of DB lenses just to fill the gaps …

[erie patsellis]

Warning - there is Sinar creep. First a Sinar, then a few extra lens boards, then a bag bellows, next you’re shopping for the little kit that lets you use the extra bellows to shade the lens, then a Sinar shutter, then a couple of DB lenses just to fill the gaps …
Then it starts to get bad….

[Tin Can]

I have a couple LF 45 and 57 that have front rise, fall, rear geared swing and tilt

Sold as Bicycle cameras 1895 +

POCO (http://www.historiccamera.com/cgi-bin/librarium2/pm.cgi?action=app_display&app=datasheet&app_id=312) was one

Very light boxes some with inside the box holder storage

Somebody must have wanted those gears

They are very usable still as they were made so well, Russian Red Leather Bellows that are still good if stored properly