Darkroom from zero: Chems disposal

[RodinalDuchamp]

Hello everyone. I moved to a new state where the weather is much colder than my previous home. I have the opportunity to build a new darkroom here but I have a few challenges and would love to hear your feedback. I have moved to a very remote small town. I have called city hall to find out how I can dispose of chemistry but they don't have any answers for me. This is my biggest issue, before I get started I need to understand how to properly dispose of darkroom chemistry. I use pyrocat in glycol as one of my main developers. I also use d76 and all the other basic kodak chems.

The biggest concern for me is that we are on a well and I can not risk contaminating our drinking water. I have been told by many people (please don't kill the messenger) that dumping chems is largely benign and that most darkroom chemicals are basically fertilizer. Please understand that I am not condoning this and I am doing every research possible to do this the right way for myself and the environment. However, if true that once used chemistry loses it's toxicity to a large degree is it safe to dump into a septic tank system or similar?

I moved from a big city where I could have chems picked up or I could bring them to a facility myself but I don't have that luxury anymore. My small town does not have the ability to dispose of these chemicals and I am not sure where else to look. Any help is appreciated.

[Tin Can]

I moved from Chicago where they can handle anything. 5 lbs of mercury no problem. It was in a sealed tube lamp.

Moved, like you to the middle of nowhere

No recycling. Once a year hazmat drop off

My waste goes to a sanitation Lagoon, a treated pond, don't fall in, no problems so far, they test

Some people evaporate to powder and can it

Silver recovery is another thing

However some here burn leaves and trees

I mulch

[Kiwi7475]

It’s a burden but you could just simply boil them off in a big pot, outside.

[jp]

A little bit of time and pyrocat HD is oxidized and inert as best I understand it. Science nerd but not a chemist.

I live in a rural area (well and septic) and dump most things down the drain with some exception...
* Used fixer I take to the city and dump down the drain at work where the municipal treatment system can handle it.
* I do not use chromate chemicals at all. Sometime alt processes like dichromate sensitizers, etc... I skip those processes or use variants without the chromates.

[neil poulsen]

I'm sure it varies state by state. I live in Oregon, and I've checked into this.

If one is a hobbyist, they can dispose of anything down the drain. At the time that I checked, there were only two chemicals that I would need to worry about. Selenium Toner, and spent fixer. And since that time, I've stopped using Selenium Toner.

About once per year, Waste Management, our local garbage/landfill concern, has a hazardous waste disposal day where residents can bring household wastes like old paint, thinner, cleaners, etc. There's also a government program that subsidizes hazardous waste disposal for small business.

With respect to spent fixer, it used to be pretty easy to find a University or a photo processing company that would reclaim the silver. So, it was to their advantage to accept spent fixer from others.

[RodinalDuchamp]

It’s a burden but you could just simply boil them off in a big pot, outside.

You sure? I am not sure I would want anyone to breathe in pyrocat fumes but maybe I am wrong.

[Kiwi7475]

You sure? I am not sure I would want anyone to breathe in pyrocat fumes but maybe I am wrong.

That’s why I said “outside”. I’m imagining doing it in the backyard, away from where people would be hanging out….

[Doremus Scudder]

Most developers (pyrocat included, I'm fairly sure) and stop baths can be disposed of in a septic system. The developer components end up being inert and non-toxic. Stop bath is just acetic (or citric) acid and not nearly as strong as what you put on your salad; no problems there.

Used fixer has silver compounds in it. I prefer to take my used fixer to a photofinisher for silver recovery. They are glad to get it (I let them keep the silver = $). Any commercial photo lab or university or community darkroom need to have silver-recovery systems. In lieu of that, small amounts can be dumped into a municipal sewage system. Septic tanks may deal with small amounts as well. See post #17 in the following discussion about chemical disposal: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?138030-Photographic-chemical-disposal/page2

You can also recover the silver yourself. There are several methods, from simply tossing in some steel wool to small silver-recovery units. A bit of research here and on the rest of the Internet should get you all the info you need if you decide to go this route. After silver recovery, used fixer can be dumped into your septic system.

Selenium toner can be replenished and reused indefinitely; no need to ever dump it. Just filter before and after use.

Wash water has trace amounts of silver in it, but not enough to be significant.

I used a darkroom for years that was on a septic system and had zero problems dumping developers and stops.

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Ironage]

I use this.

https://www.digitaltruth.com/products/product.php?brand=silver_recovery&link=silvermagnet

Not sure about your pyrocat, but the rest should be no problem.

[Mark Sampson]

B/W developers (like pyrocat) oxidize and break down chemically over time; they are not generally a problem.
Stop bath is just vinegar.
The real problem is silver- that should be recovered. I donate my used fixer to the local photo lab- they have been happy to put it through their recovery system. Probably not an option for you?
Kodak once had a useful publication on chem disposal. Perhaps they still have something on their website; I'll have a look.

[jnantz]

at the risk of me sounding like a used car salesman
I've been selling silver magnets and trickle tanks ( the digital truth magnets are sold by me ) for more than a decade, they work OK ..
I typically keep away from pyro type developers so I can't really suggest anything for that other than
you might consider finding out when your region's has mat disposal day is and save up your chemistry and disposing of them there. it will be a drive..
or you might locate and hire a regional waste hauler to give you a 15 or 50 gallon drum and and have them take it away, my guess is auto repair shops have waste haulers. ... and they might
be able to point you in the right direction. ... as you probably know a hauler will give you a bill of lading / manifest / receipt that you can save with your important papers in case in the future if you are ever asked, you can show
what you did .. and it might let you rest a bit easier too knowing you passed it off to a specialist ...
it will take a long long time to fill a 50 gallon drum. .. so you won't have to worry about the waste hauler driving great distances often...
feel free to contact me if you have an interest in the magnet or trickle tank, if I can't answer your questions I will contact the manufacturer and get back to you..
John

[LabRat]

The definitive answer is to contact your local agency that handles septic disposal and get their recommendations... Explain you are a casual user (not a volume photo lab) and want to get it right and follow their guidelines...

As mentioned, solutions with heavy metals are to be avoided, but the dilutions and compositions of your waste are minimal, and most of the ingredients in the solutions are also in higher concentrations in home and industrial cleaning products, so follow their advice, and work without guilt... ;-)

Steve K

[Willie]

The definitive answer is to contact your local agency that handles septic disposal and get their recommendations... Explain you are a casual user (not a volume photo lab) and want to get it right and follow their guidelines...

As mentioned, solutions with heavy metals are to be avoided, but the dilutions and compositions of your waste are minimal, and most of the ingredients in the solutions are also in higher concentrations in home and industrial cleaning products, so follow their advice, and work without guilt... ;-)

Steve K

He is in a SMALL town in a colder climate. An agency? Not likely. Generally a small plumbing business or independent suck truck operator. They come in, put the pipe into the septic, suck it out and... as we see here - drive into a neighboring field and dump the septic waste.

If you start asking questions locally you might do it via phone without giving your name an location. Might save you someone coming out to ask questions and especially getting the wrong guy out who has nothing better to do that get pissy about things.

Selenium and dichromates and such? If and when you use them and dump - put them in a jug with a mesh cover. Let the liquid evaporate over time - if a good plastic type container it would not break if it freezes. Once it evaporates you can wait until you go to the Big City and drop it off at a waste disposal station there.

Eastman Kodak has told us for decades most home darkroom chemistry won't harm a septic system as there is not enough volume to do damage.

Per Bruce Barnbaum your fix and developer can be mixed together before dumping.

[Torontoamateur]

Rather than relying in anecdotal info here Send emails to the chemical manufacturers. Ilford, Kodak, Adox... and ASK them how to handle the chemicals . These manufactures have the definitive answers. If you have any doubt then collect the chemicals you use in movable containers and dispose of them at the hazardous waste sight. You will then be able to sleep at night. Also have your water tested before you do any disposal and then continue to monitor the water quality do not leave that to chance. Establish a base line and then see how it progresses. Septic systems vary considerable Old to new . Passive to active. Size and proximity to the well. What is the underground aquifer like ? Is it a dug well or a deep drilled well ( mine is 360 feet deep drilled). Be scientific in this disposal and err on the side of safety.

[John Layton]

We live in a rural area and have a bit of acreage...so what works here is a hand-dug drywell (isolated from any natural water flows/sources) - just over four feet deep to go below the lowest frost, which I've filled with a sand and gravel mix to allow the chemicals to percolate through this. Built a covered "well head" (pressure treated 4x4's and a plank of 3/4" plywood with two lifting handles) to cover this, and it works like a charm!

I also mix my developers and fixers before disposing...just in case. And I save anything truly toxic...some toners and the like...for our yearly toxic waste disposal day.

[jnantz]

Per Bruce Barnbaum your fix and developer can be mixed together before dumping.

this might be OK where he lives, but it is different city to city town to town county to county
to give you a real life example
the local agency /commission in providence ri that handles mitigation / photo waste disposal told people never to do this,
they had folks segregate the fixer ( and wash water ) and deal with that for the silver ( effluent can't be higher than 6 parts / million )
everything else, developer, stop fixer remover could be mixed together to neutralize
and in a sink full of water dilute it all and let it go down the drain... 6 miles away
they don't want anything to go down the drain...

[Tom Monego]

Manufacturers should have MSDS sheets online that recommend how to handle their chemicals.
We had an old house in a suburban area, we started with a cess pool, a hole in the ground household liquid waste goes into, yes yucky, had to be pumped once a year. We were told by the town we needed a septic system. Talking with the town hazerdous waste expert, he drew up a plan after I explained I was a photographer. The folks that installed it said it was large for a single family home, but that was fine. The year after we installed the septic system the state passed a law putting all sorts of requirements on converting to septic. We paid about $4K talking with the hazerdous waste guy the about a year or two after he said a system like the one we had installed would be $20-30K. I am now in another old house in a rural area, we have a very small septic system, on the edge of needing replacement, so I have decided against putting in a darkroom,though I occasionally develop film.

[tomwilliams]

I have called city hall to find out how I can dispose of chemistry but they don't have any answers for me. This is my biggest issue, before I get started I need to understand how to properly dispose of darkroom chemistry. I use pyrocat in glycol as one of my main developers. I also use d76 and all the other basic kodak chems.

The biggest concern for me is that we are on a well and I can not risk contaminating our drinking water.

About dumping chemicals into your septic tank and drain field: what volume of darkroom waste do you produce, and what kind of drain field do you have? Chances are that yours is a standard type, with long perforated pipes distributing waste water into gravel filled ditches, thence into the surrounding soil. If the soil on your property didn't/doesn't perc well, you may have a special drain field, and some of those can be very touchy. The soil on my property didn't perc when I built, so I had to install an expensive county-approved alternative system, one that required a series of buried, multilayered pads that incubate bacteria intended to neutralize effluent before it evaporates into the atmosphere. If you disrupt the bacteria-bearing pads via an accumulation of damaging chemical compounds, you're screwed.

I dispose of all darkroom chemicals in the manner that Willie suggested: evaporation from mesh-covered galvanized steel tubs. That works well in central Arizona (at 5000 feet elevation), but maybe not so well in colder, wetter climes, unless you're at a substantial elevation. It's a little pain to use buckets, but ... the thought of dumping developer, fix, or HCA into the ground gives me hives.

If you have a groundwater well, you have to worry about surface transport of waste chemicals into your well. Waste-bearing buckets at ground level would require special vigilance.

Good luck!

[Doremus Scudder]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a working septic system with a drain field, and it isn't contaminating your well water, then disposing of developer and some acetic acid stop into your septic system shouldn't contaminate your well water either. Both these chemicals should be broken down/neutralized quickly and converted to stable, non-toxic compounds quickly anyway.

Used fixer does have dissolved silver in it in the form of argentothiosulfates. Maris Rusis' past posts indicate that even this breaks down and is converted to stable compounds in a septic system. That said, to be on the safe side, recovering the silver from the used fixer before disposing of it and/or disposing of it separately, i.e., not into the septic system, seems not too difficult. Ideally, one would have a local commercial lab that would take the fixer for silver recovery.

If you're still not comfortable disposing of any chemicals into the septic system, then one of the evaporative methods would work well coupled with the occasional trip to the hazmat facility.

I'd still recommend dealing with the used fixer separately, i.e., not mixing it with other chemicals, and finding a way to take the fixer for silver recovery.

Best,

Doremus

[h2oman]

Good thread, of interest and use to me!

[wclark5179]

Check with other businesses in your community that have waste to dispose. Car dealer, oil changing business, plumbing business come to mind. Maybe one of them could help you.

[RodinalDuchamp]

I want to thank all of you for providing excellent personal experiences and ideas for me to use. I feel a lot better about my plans going forward. I do not have access to a hazmat waste site for the fixer but I think I have a solution for everything else. That narrows the scope of the problem to a manageable size.

[Ethan]

Someone may have already said this, but remember to check your state's laws about chemical disposal. Even if its mostly safe, some states may have regulations on how certain chemicals must be disposed. I'm fairly certain massachusetts (where I am) does. Vermont on the other hand, has no regulations, even about dumping fixer into the sewer

[RodinalDuchamp]

Someone may have already said this, but remember to check your state's laws about chemical disposal. Even if its mostly safe, some states may have regulations on how certain chemicals must be disposed. I'm fairly certain massachusetts (where I am) does. Vermont on the other hand, has no regulations, even about dumping fixer into the sewer

I appreciate that advice, however, I am probably much more critical of the way chems are disposed of than any government agency or regulation. Because my family is on a well it is absolutely unconscionable for me to do anything with chemistry that might in some way affect the health of my family. I take extra steps to protect myself when dealing with certain chemicals that other people find excessive - like wearing gloves when using pyro. Even though darkroom photographers usually live pretty long full lives (my theory is we are pickling ourselves slowly) I like to avoid any exposure possible.

[MartinP]

I appreciate that advice, however, I am probably much more critical of the way chems are disposed of than any government agency or regulation. Because my family is on a well it is absolutely unconscionable for me to do anything with chemistry that might in some way affect the health of my family. I take extra steps to protect myself when dealing with certain chemicals that other people find excessive - like wearing gloves when using pyro. Even though darkroom photographers usually live pretty long full lives (my theory is we are pickling ourselves slowly) I like to avoid any exposure possible.

I think Ethan was meaning that the rules applicable to your location may not be safe or complete, or may even be harmful overall, but that you must nevertheless follow them otherwise you will be fined and/or imprisoned. Environmental regulations are VERY often based on emotion rather than science, so creating a scientifically excellent situation may still result in you being prosecuted.

[rog6228]

I called my county waste disposal office yesterday and was told to mix any 'non flammable" chemicals in cat litter or other absorbent and dispose of them in the trash.

[bob carnie]

I am in the process of buying the silver magnet John Nanian who post here sells, looks perfect for my operation.... I am wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to dispose of Ammonium Dichromate which is the only caustic item in my gum bichromate process.

[Tin Can]

I called my county waste disposal office yesterday and was told to mix any 'non flammable" chemicals in cat litter or other absorbent and dispose of them in the trash.






Exactly

Rural areas have no way of handling it

and it is tiny amounts for most except Cali

[jnantz]

Someone may have already said this, but remember to check your state's laws about chemical disposal. Even if its mostly safe, some states may have regulations on how certain chemicals must be disposed. I'm fairly certain massachusetts (where I am) does. Vermont on the other hand, has no regulations, even about dumping fixer into the sewer

Hey Ethan,
not sure where you are getting your information .. but both Massachusetts and Vermont have regulations, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Maine and New Hampshire too. ...some states
have downgraded silver saturated fixer from hazardous waste to waste but it still is not kosher to pour it down the drain..

[Drew Wiley]

Small scale disposal can be a real headache, even in a city like mine which has major chemical industries on the opposite town of town. They're all set up with respect to hazmat, right down to railroad tank car adjacency. But all a little guy like me can drop off is maximum quantity of 5 gallons of solution at a time at the designated location. That makes even dealing with old paint cans an issue, although I do know about a super secret little trick military contractors used - it's called cat litter - absorbs paint like a charm and turns it into a solid mass - no need to pour it out for evaporation and perhaps pollute the air. I'd be concerned about things like chromate going down the drain, but modest amounts of selenium or spent fixer aren't regulated at all around here, or by the EPA. They're after far more serious polluters.

Ironically, one of the worst things for water quality that routinely gets rinsed down storm drains is Simple Green degreaser. It's not "green" at all, and kills marine life like crazy even at high dilution, because it acts as a surfactant depriving gills of oxygen capture. Sometimes MSDS sheets aren't totally honest. They hide things under a "unlisted nontoxic ingredient" loophole. Just because something isn't classified as toxic doesn't mean it's harmless. Ran smack into one of those scenarios a few weeks ago.

[nbagno]

The EPA sets the baseline, states need meet or exceed the EPA regulations. Here is a good starting point. https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2015-01/documents/photofin.pdf


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[xkaes]

http://www.subclub.org/darkroom/safety.htm

[Drew Wiley]

Fed EPA and State EPA's are only one aspect of regulation, mainly related to toxicity, carcinogens, etc. Air quality districts and the special requirements of municipalities or counties can add layers of their own. Here there are all kinds of regulations involving Coastal agencies and water runoff which are apart from the EPA. Sometimes there is such a competition between agencies for the priority of regulations that they are lawsuits between them. For example, twelve different agencies are involved in wetland restoration projects near the Bay Bridge. The sad irony is, once that restored marshland is projected to finally mature and function like something fully natural again, sea level rise will no doubt already have submerged it to the degree it is all lost anyway. I have a friend in charge of the project and have heard the whole story. It gives him an interesting outdoor job and pays his bills, but is frustrating in other ways.

[abruzzi]

although I do know about a super secret little trick military contractors used - it's called cat litter - absorbs paint like a charm and turns it into a solid mass

Interestingly, they were using cat litter to store and isolate radioactive waste at the WIPP in Carlsbad NM, and they changed brands which caused a tank rupture spilling radioactive waste with a quarter billion dollar cost to cleanup, fines and suspended operations. So, make sure you're using the correct cat litter.

[Drew Wiley]

Yep, ones containing hydroscopic clay (bentonite) swell. But they're also heavy to ship, and we shipped mountains of the correct stuff to military bases all over the Pacific. But with the military, they specify and you just fill the order, and hope they know what they are doing. Some branches are way better than others in that respect.

[Wayne]

My small town does not have the ability to dispose of these chemicals and I am not sure where else to look. Any help is appreciated.

Does your small town have a sewage treatment plant? Call them, not city hall. I've been able to bring 5 gallon buckets (of some waste) to the nearest town and dump it right in their treatment ponds. If you were in town on the sewer you could probably dump most of it down the drain, my method just eliminates the drain.

[bill2424]

I have a septic system so I worry about dumping my chemicals. In the past I use to give my fixer (used once) to the local college where they could still use it then dump it in the city sewer. They have since closed the darkrooms so I have to find an alternative
to that. What I now do is pour all my printing chemicals into a 5 gallon container. I have 3 containers which will get me through 3 printing sessions. Nothing gets dumped into my septic. I pour dektol, acetic acid, fix, selenium toner and perma wash all in the
container. I found that if I pour my dektol into the acetic acid it ends up with a PH of around 6 which is fairly neutral. When its all combined I'm not sure what I end up with. When I have 3 full containers full I take them to a motorhome dump station. From
there it gets picked up and taken for treatment. It's probably no worse then the waste dumped by motorhomes with their bleach and antifreeze and who knows what else.

[xkaes]

Much of what you use in the darkroom will not hurt the bacteria in a septic tank. For example, stop bath is mostly vinegar -- about 5% acetic acid. So a lot depends on how large your tank is, what chemicals you use, how dilute it is, and how much you use.

Perhaps there are web-sites (from septic companies?, universities, etc.) that have ways to check the health of the bacteria in a septic system. Just a guess.