Sinar AND Deardorff Users...

[Capocheny]

Greetings,

Just a curiosity... are there many shooters here on this forum that use both a Sinar system and a Deardorff camera?

Are you noticing an entirely "different" way of using these cameras with respects to the techniques employed?

What is your "procedures" or "steps" when using the Dorff in terms of focusing? For example, in using the Sinar, the recommended steps are:

1. focus on the far point
2. tilt to get focus on near point
3. focus on one side - horizontally
4. swing to get other horizontal side in focus

Hope I'm explaining my question adequately... if not, please let me know and I'll clarify. :)

Thanks for any comments in advance.

Cheers

[Ed K.]

Henry,
You might wish to clarify whether it is a Sinar P2 8x10 vs a Deardorff View Series 8x10, or whatever other models you are thinking of. The P2 tilts differ from the F series, and also, the P2 has nice scales for nearly every movement whereas the Dorff has no scales or detents. In 8x10 at least, it would seem that the 'Dorff experience is more "seat of the pants"; the Sinar P2 allows geometric precision without a protractor ( or a hammer, pair of pliers and carpenters square ? ) . I suspect that the P2 user is the more calculating one, and the 'Dorff user is more eyeball on the GG. On the 'Dorff, a user can execute a front tilt on center axis OR base tilt, however the 'Dorff rear tilt is base tilt only. And where the Sinar cameras have horizontal shift and swing, the 'Dorff 8x10 at least, has only swing if it is a swing camera, so horizontal shifts must be made by swinging both the back and the front - the nifty P2 allows just dialing the swing in. I think there must be some articles on this forum about base vs. center tilt focus techniques, no?

[Capocheny]

Hi Ed,

Thank you for the note...

I'm presently using a Sinar X 4x5 and Deardorff 4x5/5x7...

I have looked up postings on this forum concerning base vs. center tilt focusing techniques but there isn't all that much info on the subject... hence the reason for my posting.

I'm looking to chat with a couple of users of both systems off-line to glean a bit more info on the proper usage of a Dorff versus Sinar. :)

Thanks again.

Cheers

[Ed K.]

Henry,

I have not used the X or the 4x5/5x7 Dorffs - just the P2 8x10 and the 8x10 Dorff. That said, the X is of similar design to the P2. The whole point of the asymetric tilts on the P2 and X cameras is that most refocusing is reduced or eliminated, it is more intuitive. For most of what I've done wth the P2, eyeballing it was easy and dead-on, almost too easy. The Dorff, while also easy, is tricky not only due to the way it moves, but the fact that there are no nifty neutral stops to ensure dead-on neutral positions - this causes problems at times, especially for technical or architectural work.

There are many books that give nice diagrams and such, explaining theory of what one needs to do, as well as online pubs of the same such as Merklinger's Photo Books ("http://www.trenholm.org/hmmerk/" _target=blank) and others. Once you clarify for yourself how the plane of focus works and how to position it, the rest should fall into line. Appologies if you have already digested this sort of stuff.

Using 8x10 is much easier than 4x5 / 5x7 in this regard, as one can visually see the effects of movements with ease. I've seen Sinar manuals, you might write Sinar Bron to ask for a pdf of one, for the definitive sources, as well as how to use the depth of field focus dial on the Sinar.
Pictures help a bunch when explaining how it works.

I wish you good luck, and I hope that one of the super experts who has used an X around here give you a hand.

[Capocheny]

Hi Ed,

Thank you for the note...

I've been using the X for the past several years and fully understand what you're saying with respects to ease of use and intuitiveness... it's a GREAT camera.

However, I've just purchased the 4x5/5x7 Dorff and find it entirely different in terms of usage. I'm finding it a bit of a challenge. Although, admittedly, I need to put a LOT more time into learning its unique idiosyncrasies. I've only been using it indoors where I have a little table-top setup arranged. When I started photographing some cala lilies... I soon discovered the differences. :) It's like night and day... :)

Anyway, with your permission, can I email you directly if I have other questions?

Thanks Ed.

Cheers

[Ed K.]

Greetings Henry,

Sure, drop a line if you like. It would be good however if some old time 'Dorff experts would list some things here. In the spirit of that, and to encourage the 'old pros' to chime in, here are a few more thoughts to the thread. I'm sure that other 'Dorff users will have a lot to say about how it's really done. So many of the shots that I use my 'Dorff for are quite elementary and require only the most modest and easy sorts of movements.

A few more thoughts however. The 'Dorff comes into its own as a field camera - that is the true joy of it. As you have the X, which is one of the masters of the tabletop, you've ( I'm sure you know this ) got both bases covered well. I've tried to shoot a P2 in the field and it attracted Police like mosquitoes in Owens Valley during the late spring. The 'Dorff on the other hand is either ignored or looked upon as something akin to a Model A, with people wondering its owner or owner's grandfather bought it new; this is a true advantage of the 'Dorff.

I would imagine that instructions for axial cameras such as some Calumets would do for front moves, and instructions for the Sinar F series would do for the rear someone in terms of tilt. Vertical shift is obvious - just use the little knob and move the lens board up and down. No rear shifts at all without involving the whole camera - very un-Sinar like, and much less convenient for closeup work.

I prefer to use the front tilt in an axial manner on my 'Dorff, and then position the frame holder hardware so that it triangulates - this makes my old 'Dorff more stable in the front. For outside work, I pick a plane that the focus must run through and then visually lay that plane through the scene in my mind. If I can make the plane intersect the most important focus points that I want, that's often where I start; if not, I often just pick another camera position that works better if possible. Outdoors, in good light, using a dark cloth that can wrap into a tube for total blackout of the GG back, one can use a loupe to check that the plane is positioned where desired.

I am different than some people this way regarding the plane of focus. I find that stopping down gives a definite sense of more DOF, however for me, I find that critical focus improvements based on a combination of tilts and stopping down are often just wishful thinking if the plane doesn't intersect well enough. Depth of field is actually reduced when tilts/swings are used.

On my 'Dorff, I start by imagining where I want the horizon in the picture, as in how much rise roughly I need - this lets me pick the approximate position for the front standard when I first set it up. Usually, I know whether I will need a lot of rise or not. From there, in most cases, I level the camera, put the rear frame in the neutral position ( thankfully, it has a detent of sorts for that ), and then set the front standard parallel. I also check to be sure that the swings are neutral at this time by feeling the edges of the hardware - this can be a real "gotcha" if they were not set back to neutral before. Next I firm up all the movement knobs and get a general focus on things.

If I need more rise than my camera will do without shifting the lensboard up too much and risking a light leak, provided my lens has that circle, I alter the above setup by slanting the bed up and then positioning the back and front vertical - this is similar to how horizontal shifts must be done. Horizontal shifts are done by rotating the camera base and then swinging the front and back so that they remain parallel ( quite a pain compared to the X or P2!!! ).

Having levels for the rear frame and front standard helps a bunch. If you don't have levels and don't wish to install them permanently ( as in my case ), you can always keep a small level on a chain to your meter. I carry a small tape measure in my kit too, however in the field I rarely need it as most subjects are pretty far away.

Another fluke of the 'Dorff is that while the old girl settles down nicely, it is still easy to accidentally push on the rear frame during focusing or tug on it with the dark cloth. It's important to keep checking one's self for this pushing or pulling while doing critical focusing. The focusing must of course be done while the camera is in its settled state, which includes even the slop in the pins of the back. Normally, this is not a problem in practice, however I do use a light-weight dark cloth sewn into a tube, which works for me in this regard. The Sinar sure does not have this issue. Especially with the angles sometimes used in tabletop, I would not be surprised to learn that some focusing problems can be traced to moving the GG position while checking focus, or that the weight of a film holder might change the GG position. Tabletop is so very much more precision than most field work, and that is exactly why there are both the X type cameras and the 'Dorff type cameras.

Except for special focus effects, which IMO best done visually, as expected, the rear frame is perspective control and the front standard is mostly plane of focus. Put the rear frame parallel to the verticals that you want to keep from converging and leave it be, or swing the rear to accomodate shift and from there to correct and horizontal keystoning you want to adjust out.

In practice, there is a lot of "nudge, tweak, tighten a tad" with the 'Dorff, however soon it goes pretty quickly.

Two tools I find very handy for 'Dorff shooting are a pair of ultra high magnification reading glasses ( the kind that make one want to hurl if one turns their head to something far away ) of +3.5 diopter, and a small Toyo loupe that can rest on the GG. Also, while I can't comment on satin GG or C.P. Goerz GG because I haven't used them, I can say that not having a real 'Dorff GG or very high quality GG would be a serious handicap. For tabletop work, which I don't use my 'Dorff for at all, I find that a very bright little flashlight, and a small Arri focusing fresnel light help a bunch, as I use them to verify focus points.

As a side note, it is also worthy to note that a lot can be done with masking in a compendium in terms of near/far combinations - sometimes it is just not possible to make the contorted view camera do the impossible. Masking allows one to combine the shots ( okay, there too is Photoshop these days for some ).

The 'Dorff is something that one needs to concentrate on the intent. Let the theory be one's guide, and then just do what one can to coax the camera into a position that matches the gist of the theory. And like most things, sometimes the best solutions are the most simple - such as moving the camera someplace else that allows a great shot with fewer movements, or requires less precision.

I think it's best to take the 'Dorff out to the field, or do some less technical portrait work with it, and get comfortable. The precision world of the tabletop is not its forte, especially for someone lucky enough to have an X. There is nothing quite like standing out in nature at first light, with 'Dorff set up and ready just taking it in, or lining up a beautiful new building in a great setting on that old yet marvelous ground glass. Also, where the Sinar brings disappointment when a calculated move doesn't quite work or a "so what?, of course it worked" when it does, the 'Dorff gives a palpable satisfaction and amazement that somehow that old rickety thing really brought home the bacon.

[Capocheny]

Hi Ed,

Thanks kindly for all the information... much appreciate it. :)

I'll go through the materials that you've provided and contact you directly with any questions I may have. There's a dearth of good stuff in there and I'm sure things will come to mind as I go through it.

Thanks again.

Cheers

[Ed K.]

Hmmm, "dearth" does mean scarcity, or lacking - sorry about that! Are there any other 'Dorff users that could help Henry enjoy his 'Dorff more?