View Full Version : Linhof Technika III vs later models
robertraymer
31-Oct-2021, 09:01
I have lately been looking around for a 4x5 camera with a rangefinder that will allow for portable (potentially handheld) portraits and thought I had settled on trying to save up for a Master Technika, but looking at new prices there is no way I can justify it, and looking at used prices I have noticed that the Technika III's are significantly cheaper. I am aware that there are a number of differences between the III and later models, including different lens boards, more limited movements, the need to match cams/lenses/and cameras, etc, but I am unsure if any of that will have a significant enough impact on my planned shooting to justify the additional price of a later model like the Master.
As it is, a III would be a significant upgrade over the Speed Graphic I sold given its ability to use multiple/longer lenses as long as the cams are matched, especially with the ability to add a L hand grip to make handholding easier (I know the camera is heavier). Given that I intend to use it mostly for portraits, and am not likely to need a ton of excessive movements, I was wondering if any of the improvements of the later models would make much of a difference. I have found a few different options for the III currently available at different places, all with lenses (and matched cams) that would suit my needs, and am tempted to pull the trigger, but dont want to buy it only to regret not spending a bit more on a "better" newer model that would be better for me. Apart from the availability of parts and the potential difficulty finding additional lenses (if needed) and having them be matched to the body, is there any other real reason to go newer?
Bob Salomon
31-Oct-2021, 09:11
Look for a IV or V.
robertraymer
1-Nov-2021, 11:18
Why specifically?
Assuming I find a III with whatever matched cam/lenses I feel like I will likely use, is there any other reason to go with a IV or V? I know front tilt doesn't exist on the III, and that the IV and newer have slightly more movements, which would be nice to have, but really is not super important to me as I almost never use movements with portraits and shoot almost no landscape or architecture (and have an 8x10 with plenty of movements if I REALLY wanted an architecture shot badly enough). Of a bit more concern is the lack of ability to use a newer lens and maintain RF focusing, but to my understanding I would need a V or newer, and if I have the lenses (with cams) I use most already I do not know that the extra expense would be worth it for something I might not need to begin with. Are there any other significant upgrades or reasons that I am missing?
Bob Salomon
1-Nov-2021, 11:59
Why specifically?
Assuming I find a III with whatever matched cam/lenses I feel like I will likely use, is there any other reason to go with a IV or V? I know front tilt doesn't exist on the III, and that the IV and newer have slightly more movements, which would be nice to have, but really is not super important to me as I almost never use movements with portraits and shoot almost no landscape or architecture (and have an 8x10 with plenty of movements if I REALLY wanted an architecture shot badly enough). Of a bit more concern is the lack of ability to use a newer lens and maintain RF focusing, but to my understanding I would need a V or newer, and if I have the lenses (with cams) I use most already I do not know that the extra expense would be worth it for something I might not need to begin with. Are there any other significant upgrades or reasons that I am missing?
A IV, a V and the Master can be cammed.
But they all take the same, commonly available lens boards, gg and fresnel screen. All of those are different for the III.
sharktooth
1-Nov-2021, 12:21
The IV, V, and Master all work basically the same way, and all share the same lens boards, backs, and most accessories. If cost is the primary concern, then a used model that is in good working condition, and that has a good bellows (preferably recently replaced by quality supplier), is probably more important than the specific model.
The whole issue with cams is a different concern. Realistically, a single cam at some standard focal length is probably all that really makes practical sense. I wouldn't bother with cams for longer focal lengths, since everything becomes more critical, and the average person can't afford to keep the whole rangefinder system properly maintained to achieve that precision. With that in mind, the old Speed Graphics and their like are all that really makes sense anyway. With that being said, I see no reason to prefer a III over a Speed Graphic, unless one or the other was in better physical operating condition. Expecting to use multiple cammed lenses of different focal lengths to achieve accurate rangefinder focus on an old unmaintained camera, is a pipedream.
If you want to use your camera with a single cammed standard focal length lens for some handheld shooting, and don't need movements, and don't plan to switch out lenses too often, then a III in good condition with a good bellows could work nicely. If you want more versatility, then you'd be better off with a IV or V as Bob suggested.
Chauncey Walden
2-Nov-2021, 11:04
If you use, or plan to, Grafmatic holders, there is a slight modification that has to be made on a III. I have 2 IIIs with no rangefinders and love them.
The Technika III is a fine camera, but has been replaced by the IV, V, & MT with increasingly better features and usability. The Technika III is about half the price of a similarly outfitted IV.
Parts for a III are harder to find but on the other hand if needed a III "Parts Camera" is cheaper. I would highly recommend you buy a Technika in perfect working shape as they are very robust cameras and you will be unlikely to need a part unless the camera takes a direct hit. Bellows are the exception, an easy enough procedure you can preform yourself. You should expect any model Technika to need this if the bellows have not been replaced in the last 10 years or so.
Service from Linhof of Munich or a Linhof repair center is EXPENSIVE. You can easily and quickly spend more money on service than you paid for the camera! Sending a III in for service is a losing proposition. Luckily a fully functional III is an easy camera to self service, it has few complex assemblies (the later models have a complex front standard). So if you are unwilling to maintain the III yourself then you will get more value from a serviced IV,V,MT.
The 4x5 Technika III was Linhof's first Post-War camera and was made from 1946 until it was superseded by the IV in 1957. Over these 10 years the Technika 3 had continuous technical and cosmetic improvements and the last model III was more advanced than the original 1940's cameras.
3 major variations exist, Early - Mid - Late.
The rangefinder on the early cameras was more basic and used a different style cam than the Mid & Late models. The early model III Technika's are not a good fit for what you are looking to do.
The Mid & Late models - 1950's had an improved rangefinder incorporating a prism and are far easier to see through and use. These models used a cam similar looking cam as the later IV, V, MT cameras but it is slightly narrower and they are not interchangeable with the later model cams.
The rangefinders have continued to improve up to today and a newer camera of any model will have a brighter and more accurate RF than an older one.
Cams - The Technika III and IV cameras do not use a zeroed position ground glass but can incorporate shims and thus each camera is likely to be slightly different. Due to this possible variation in film plane between cameras the cam was made precisely for each camera and lens and was not interchangeable. On a III or IV cam the SN# of both the lens and camera were engraved into the cam. On the V and MT the shims were done away with and backs were made with enough precision that the GG was zeroed on all cameras. This is great because now once a lens cam is made it is interchangeable with any other V & MT camera.
This is a big advantage because if you have a V or MT you can buy a lens that already has a cam with it. On the III & IV if you buy a lens with a cam it is not very likely to work for critical focusing, and possibly not at all. For the III and IV you will need to have a new cam made for each new lens you acquire. This is a big deal since lens caming service is $400-$500 per lens. I highly recommend if you buy a Technika III or IV that you get one with the lenses you need already with cams (engraved with both camera and lens SN#). Buying a III with no lenses and then having 3 cams made for say 90, 150, 270mm will end up costing you far more than buying a MT (Master Technika) in the end.
John Layton
5-Nov-2021, 03:15
A new, high quality bellows, when used with reasonable care...should last much longer than the ten year service interval mentioned (or at least implied) above.
True, there have been a few issues relating to Linhof Technikardan bellows giving up the ghost a bit early...but this is almost always due to user error in not folding them correctly.
My own conversion of one of my L-45A 4x5 cameras to 5x7 involved incorporating the bellows and rotating back from a pre-WWII Linhof 5x7 technical camera...and to this day that old bellows keeps the light at bay, no matter its intensity.
Having said the above...its obviously very important to carefully examine a bellows for light leaks on a regular basis - no matter its age, and certainly at the point of purchase of an LF camera...no matter its age.
Sean Mac
5-Nov-2021, 09:54
I fitted a new bellows to my Technika iii this year.
Hopefully it will still be good in another seventy years or so...
If I wanted one with a rangefinder I would go for a Master Technika.
There often seems to be one or two priced to sell in the obvious place.
:)
I not sure about having an RF on a LF camera... The Tek is heavy, and not comfortable hand holding it for long, not much of an area to read focus, having a larger GG to focus and compose on is one of the best features of sheet film cameras, if camera is on tripod, you have to move set camera around to get the narrow RF FOV to find the spot to focus on, and RF units could drift their alignment over time and use... Seems to be a good feature, but just relied on GG or focus distance scales and skipped the RF feature until I forgot it was on there...
Yea, the press and wedding guys used them, but I think might have been more of a kludge looking for a solution...
Steve
Bob Salomon
5-Nov-2021, 10:25
I not sure about having an RF on a LF camera... The Tek is heavy, and not comfortable hand holding it for long, not much of an area to read focus, having a larger GG to focus and compose on is one of the best features of sheet film cameras, if camera is on tripod, you have to move set camera around to get the narrow RF FOV to find the spot to focus on, and RF units could drift their alignment over time and use... Seems to be a good feature, but just relied on GG or focus distance scales and skipped the RF feature until I forgot it was on there...
Yea, the press and wedding guys used them, but I think might have been more of a kludge looking for a solution...
Steve
You should have told that to Mary Ellen Mark. She used her Master Technika hand held using the rangefinder.
If it is properly cammed it can’t drift off.
You should have told that to Mary Ellen Mark. She used her Master Technika hand held using the rangefinder.
If it is properly cammed it can’t drift off.
Ahhhhhh, still a wrist-wrecker even with that "anatomic grip"... Made for ham-fisted teutonic types...
Mark's hand & wrists must look like the "mummy's curse" these days...
;-)
Even a Graphic gets heavy after a while... I think the side leather straps are easier as the camera weight on a grip cantilevers especially on a entirely metal camera...
The B&J or Busch Pressman are strong and light, but only one lens RF coupling, MUCH easier to prolong handholding...
Steve K
Bob Salomon
5-Nov-2021, 12:21
Ahhhhhh, still a wrist-wrecker even with that "anatomic grip"... Made for ham-fisted teutonic types...
Mark's hand & wrists must look like the "mummy's curse" these days...
;-)
Even a Graphic gets heavy after a while... I think the side leather straps are easier as the camera weight on a grip cantilevers especially on a entirely metal camera...
The B&J or Busch Pressman are strong and light, but only one lens RF coupling, MUCH easier to prolong handholding...
Steve K
The Master Technika comes with the leather strap. The Anatomical Grip is an accessory.
robertraymer
5-Nov-2021, 19:00
Thanks to everyone who replied with all the great information.
I ended up buying a Technika III v5 made in 1956 (I believe) that was in great condition from the family of a retired photographer. The camera was amazingly well maintained, with the bellows, outside leather, and even the leather on the viewfinder hood all still in near perfect condition. All gears for the movements were properly lubricated and operated smoothly, and the rangefinder was bright and clear, requiring just a quick wipe with a q tip to remove a bit of dust from the viewfinder. Most importantly to me, the camera came with 3 lenses, a 90mm super angulon, a 150mm Symmar, and a 270mm tele-xanar, all with perfectly operating shutters and cams properly matched to both the Technika III body and the individual lenses via SN. It also came with a few extras like a sports finder, a spare ground glass, and a few release cables. A quick test withe the camera on a tripod to compare the RF focus with the GG confirmed that the rangefinder is accurate with each individual lens, which was important to me. Considering I was able to get all this for less than most of the IV bodies alone I was able to find, I consider it a win.
While I know that there are advantages to the newer models, and appreciate everyone pointing them out, I am hopeful that in its current condition, and knowing that it will be well cared for by me, it will continue to last a long time. And since it came with all the lenses I "need", forward compatibility is not currently an issue for me. Im also happy that unlike the speed graphic I used to have, the ability to use multiple cammed lenses plus the additional movements it offers will make it much more versatile, no matter what Im shooting. Next up for me is to test some "close" handheld portraits to work out both reasonable shutter speeds for hand holding as well as how far I need to stop each lens down to achieve the DOF I need to compensate for parallax issues than may result from focusing and recomposing at close distance, then to shoot a few other subjects with movements to see what I can do with it.
Mark Sampson
5-Nov-2021, 19:36
sounds like you bought the right camera the right way- on condition and completeness. I'm sure you'll be very pleased- best of luck!
And don't forget to share a photo or two here, when you have some that you like.
Congratulations!!! Getting a complete camera as a kit is a big+++, as the accessories are period correct, as there was some minor variations with lensboards etc that don't completely interchange (despite the same size boards have very minor variations that won't fit all the III's)... Getting used blank boards that fit are scarce and tricky these days...
I have a III for decades now, and have used a Master for a short time on loan, and the Master is upgraded, but not too different the basic camera, mostly the extra front tilt... But the III has some front base tilt if you know where to look... If you drop the bed to the lower position and tilt back the lens to new normal position, there are three indent positions the FS will rest on, and those are the front tilts (not locked down, but fits fairly snug)... Those are the common points your tilt will about need... A little crude, but does work...
Despite the weight, the top feature of the Teks is being able to open them and they (with practice) can be zeroed out and set-up mostly by feel, and I find myself getting it on the tripod and basic aiming without looking at the camera much, and what I see on the GG is very close to what I will be shooting at, so a real time saver and I can set up, shoot, and pack in total of usually less than 5 or 10 minutes...
I don't like the grip as mentioned and it takes up much more space in bag or case... Viewfinder is useful in lower light, but usually use it as a "director's viewfinder" on a neck lanyard that is used before I set up camera... Best place to lift camera for tripod mounting is inside middle of housing shell where the bed latches to lock... (Camera balances very well when lifted from there...)
I have done some restorations on a few of these, and it's great they hold factory alignments well and when zeroed out, tolerances are in the league of fine roll film cameras (unusually good for a sheet film camera) holding tolerances of less than thousands of an inch, and old abused ones were not far off... But two things to watch out for is the fresnel/thin GG are in an odd stacking, so if anyone took it apart to clean, they might not assembled it correctly throwing focus off (do film focus test)... The other thing is even with perfect old bellows now, they can start leaking with even moderate use... But fear not, as Keith at Custom Bellows/UK makes great replacements at a very reasonable price!!! You will be glad you did when you see and use your new bellows... Plan on it...
Lots more to say, but more fun to use... ;-)
Have fun!!!
Steve K
Thats great to hear! Sounds like a very complete late model III. The III was my first Linhof camera and still my favorite.
Rod Klukas
6-Nov-2021, 10:19
The III would be OK for Portraits, but if you wanted Tilt there is no front tilt on a III, only back tilt which introduces distortion.
Some thing to consider. Front tilt might become useful with environmental portraits or even a landscape at some later time...
Rod
Just some things to add:
I started with a Tech III from 1954, with it's original leather bellows, which are still ok !
I upgraded to a Linhof Technica Color (basically a Tech IV on a rail) from 1964, about 10 years ago. The bellows were some kind of plastic, and tore apart quickly and I replaced it. Did not like the back (well actually the groundglass) and exchanged with the back from the III, apparently compatible, happily using it ever since.
Have fun with the III, I did have, and extra base boards were easy if you know a friendly machinist.
Best,
Cor
Btw I never understood the need to hand held Linhof camera (or other 4*5), but that is off course completely personal, and I did see nice work form those who did, albeit mostly with thos Aero Ektar (?) lenses.
robertraymer
10-Nov-2021, 21:09
One last question. I got a Linhof Universalsucher-Technika (black version with distance scale on either side and horizontal distance selection wheel on the back) viewfinder with the camera. I understand that the right scale is for use with 4x5 and the left scale is for 5x7, and I know how to use it, adjust parallax based on distance, etc, but the only think I could not find a clear answer on was the inner frame lines. The original manual makes no mention of it that I noticed, while people on other boards have said everything from it is the frame lines for 4x5/5x7, to it is the frame line for 6x9, to 6x7, etc. My understanding is that the inner frame lines are for the 6x9 format, and that while shooting 4x5 I should be using the entire viewing area to guide my composition (I know it won't be exact, but should be in the ball park) after selecting the proper distance for paralax correction, but I thought I would try to get confirmation on that. Thanks.
Embdude
11-Nov-2021, 01:20
people on other boards have said everything from it is the frame lines for 4x5/5x7, to it is the frame line for 6x9, to 6x7, etc. My understanding is that the inner frame lines are for the 6x9 format, and that while shooting 4x5 I should be using the entire viewing area to guide my composition (I know it won't be exact, but should be in the ball park) after selecting the proper distance for paralax correction, but I thought I would try to get confirmation on that. Thanks.
The inner lines are for 6x9.
Otto Croy wrote about them in his 1952 Linhof Guide: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mmaruW4iA57raiMGlL2neAw6aquu6Lbi/view?usp=sharing
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