Hunting for that special 4x5, my first LF camera

[justlikeswimming]

Hi folks, newbie to LFPF and about to jump into the LF pool. I've learned so much reading various posts (thanks to all!) and think I've narrowed camera choices to two. It was mentioned to me at another forum that this might be worth bringing up to you LF experts, so here goes. If this topic has already been discussed to death (and variations have, for sure) my apologies in advance (I'll do better next time!).

Some basic info - I like to shoot (Appalachian) landscapes, old (mostly small) structures (barns, houses, etc.), and macro shots of flowers, foliage, etc. All of my work is done in the 'wild', no studio work. I love the greater detail and control that LF provides.

Macro is my favorite - moving from 35mm to medium format was a great leap in macro possibilities, I can only imagine how much more LF will provide! I've got the idea that I can better control where the narrow DOF falls in my macro photos by playing with movements. Getting the DOF in the exact right position with my Mamiya c220 and Mamiya 645 1000s is really difficult. Also, I like to hike into the wilderness to take photos, so a portable and tough camera is needed.

Within my very limited budget I've narrowed choices to 2 technical cameras - Horseman 45FA and Wista 45SP. I'm leaning toward the Wista (longer bellows and a little nicer back movements), but it is heavier than the Horseman! I've been hauling around a mamiya 645 1000s + prism meter + 120mm macro +2-3 more lenses, I don't think the Wista will be heavier than that!

So the question is - are these cameras a good start in LF, given my needs? I considered field cameras but (1) they are very expensive right now and (2) the cheaper ones I might afford just don't look like they could survive the crazy trails (or lack of trails) I hike.

Sorry to be so long winded, and thanks for any and all suggestions and comments!

[Drew Wiley]

The Horseman FA is a beautifully made clamshell fold-up style technical camera but with limited bellows. Not ideal for lenses longer than 210 unless you use a tele. A "tophat" extension board would allow you to use a 240. It's a reasonable priced and lighter wt alternative to a 4X5 Technika. But you would probably have enough bellows draw to do closeup work with a 150 G-Claron or, even better, a 180/f9 Fuji A-series lens. With respect to lenses, just realize that many large format lenses are really lightweight compared to medium format ones, often even lighter than 35mm lenses. So that offsets the camera weight itself somewhat. I'm not familiar with Wista cameras except for the little wooden folding ones.

[justlikeswimming]

The Horseman FA is a beautifully made clamshell fold-up style technical camera but with limited bellows. Not ideal for lenses longer than 210 unless you use a tele. A "tophat" extension board would allow you to use a 240. It's a reasonable priced and lighter wt alternative to a 4X5 Technika. But you would probably have enough bellows draw to do closeup work with a 150 G-Claron or, even better, a 180/f9 Fuji A-series lens. With respect to lenses, just realize that many large format lenses are really lightweight compared to medium format ones, often even lighter than 35mm lenses. So that offsets the camera weight itself somewhat. I'm not familiar with Wista cameras except for the little wooden folding ones.

Thanks for the information! 150-180mm lens for macro work sounds good, though the longer bellows of the Wista may help in this regard. I'm not that familiar with the practicality of a 'tophat' in the field. I haven't spent much time looking at the variety of lenses, your suggestions help! Thanks so much!

[CreationBear]

Ha, I think most of us are serial monogamists when it comes to cameras, so I wouldn't spend too much time and energy trying to get it perfect right out of the gate.:) It might make more sense to settle in with a "generalist" camera (e.g. a Chamonix folder, etc.) just to get a feel for your own eccentricities--i.e. whether you tend to see "wide" or "long," or just what kind of form factor you want to tote around--before you commit to a specialized camera. Another approach would be to pick a first camera that makes the operations of a view camera most transparent, which for most people means starting with a monorail. (FWIW, while I owned a Horseman HF for a number of years I quickly made a Sinar my main field camera--Horseman fit better in the toplid of my pack, though.;))

[Drew Wiley]

Sinar monorails can be a lot faster to set up and shoot than a technical camera, but tend to take up more pack space if configured ready-to-go. I've worked with Sinars all along in the mountains, but not exclusively. The Sinar system is Wunderbar for closeup work.

[Havoc]

I've been hauling around a mamiya 645 1000s + prism meter + 120mm macro +2-3 more lenses, I don't think the Wista will be heavier than that!

I'm used to hauling around a 645ProTL with reflex finder and motor drive, 2 backs, 3-4 lenses and a lightmeter for the holidays. In 4x5 use a Wista and I feel the Wista is heavier. Don't stare too long on the camera, take all the rest in account as well. You'll need to take also a separate lightmeter, loupe and filmholders. Compared to 120 film, a filmholder is heavy. Maybe you'll need a heavier tripod as well.

[r.e.]

You haven't said what your budget is. I don't know the used price of a Horseman 45FA or Wista 45SP, but as I understand it these were not cheap cameras new. Having regard to what you want to do with your new camera, I'd like to suggest that you consider an Arca-Swiss F-Line Discovery monorail. I've attached B&H's old catalogue page for it. A forum search will bring up quite a lot of information on the Discovery. There was one for sale here last week, but it looks like it sold within a day or two.

The Discovery came with a 300mm/12" rail, but if desired for hiking there are two ways to set it up with a 150mm/6" rail. The seller of a used Discovery may already have it set up with a short rail - it was a popular option - in addition to the 300mm rail.


220826

[r.e.]

Further to the above post, here are three phone photos of an Arca-Swiss F-Line Discovery, using the 300mm/12" rail. As noted, one can also use a short rail to make the camera more compact. The first shows the camera with the standard bellows, the second with a bag bellows and 75mm wide angle lens. The third is a rear view showing the ground glass. I've changed out the original rail carriers, which work with friction, for geared carriers. While I have two geared carriers, one actually needs only one for geared focus. I carry the camera at my side with the camera upside down and one hand holding the middle of the rail.

Arca-Swiss Discovery, Standard Bellows

220827


Bag Bellows

220828


Rear View, Ground Glass

220829

[justlikeswimming]

I'm used to hauling around a 645ProTL with reflex finder and motor drive, 2 backs, 3-4 lenses and a lightmeter for the holidays. In 4x5 use a Wista and I feel the Wista is heavier. Don't stare too long on the camera, take all the rest in account as well. You'll need to take also a separate lightmeter, loupe and filmholders. Compared to 120 film, a filmholder is heavy. Maybe you'll need a heavier tripod as well.

Thanks for the comments, Havoc. That's quite the 645 rig you haul around, you've provided a whole new perspective on the weight of the Wista + equipment, thank you! Thankfully, I have a very sturdy tripod...

[justlikeswimming]

You haven't said what our budget is. I don't know the used price of a Horseman 45FA or Wista 45SP, but as I understand it these were not cheap cameras new. Having regard to what you want to do with your new camera, I'd like to suggest that you consider an Arca-Swiss Discovery monorail. I've attached B&H's old catalogue page for it. A forum search will bring up quite a lot of information on the Discovery. There was one for sale here last week, but it looks like it sold within a day or two.

The Discovery came with a 300mm/12" rail, but if desired for hiking there are two ways to set it up with a 150mm/6" rail. The seller of a used Discovery may already have it set up with a short rail - it was a popular option - in addition to the 300mm rail.


220826

Thanks r.e. for your comments and suggestions. As for my budget, I'm one of those ebayers buying old cameras that are in decent shape and getting by (many times the cameras are great, sometimes not). My budget is <$1000 for the camera and lens (I know, a tall order!).
I haven't really considered a monorail system because I was under the impression it can't broken down and placed in a backpack. If this can be done it may be an option for me. The monorails are selling for a lot less than the technical and field cameras, and they do appear very sturdy! I'll do more research to see if such a rig would work for me in the field - a bit more time with set-up is no problem for me, but I have to be able to haul it on the trails. Thanks so much for your comments, I'll research further!

[justlikeswimming]

I love the look of your camera, beautiful! Thanks for bringing up a possible camera I perhaps discounted too soon...I've discovered there have been many past discussions about using monorails for field cameras, I'll visit those sites, thank you all!

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks r.e. for your comments and suggestions. As for my budget, I'm one of those ebayers buying old cameras that are in decent shape and getting by (many times the cameras are great, sometimes not). My budget is <$1000 for the camera and lens (I know, a tall order!).
I haven't really considered a monorail system because I was under the impression it can't broken down and placed in a backpack. If this can be done it may be an option for me. The monorails are selling for a lot less than the technical and field cameras, and they do appear very sturdy! I'll do more research to see if such a rig would work for me in the field - a bit more time with set-up is no problem for me, but I have to be able to haul it on the trails. Thanks so much for your comments, I'll research further!

While it is more then your budget, not all monorails can’t be broken down. The Technorama is a folding monorail.

[r.e.]

I haven't really considered a monorail system because I was under the impression it can't broken down and placed in a backpack. If this can be done it may be an option for me. The monorails are selling for a lot less than the technical and field cameras, and they do appear very sturdy! I'll do more research to see if such a rig would work for me in the field - a bit more time with set-up is no problem for me, but I have to be able to haul it on the trails. Thanks so much for your comments, I'll research further!


I love the look of your camera, beautiful! Thanks for bringing up a possible camera I perhaps discounted too soon...I've discovered there have been many past discussions about using monorails for field cameras, I'll visit those sites, thank you all!

An Arca-Swiss Discovery can not only be broken down for a backpack, it can be dismantled into its component parts. Arca-Swiss cameras are completely modular. While the parts aren't cheap, I can turn my Discovery into an 8x10 camera with up to 700mm of bellows in less than 10 minutes.

The problem is that Discoveries don't come up for sale often. The one for sale on the forum last week went very quickly. However, if you come across one, it's worth your consideration.

[CreationBear]

I haven't really considered a monorail system because I was under the impression it can't broken down and placed in a backpack

Depends on how big your pack is.;)

As r.e. mentioned, you can certainly carry a monorail on a short rail: that's how I roll with my Sinar Norma. The "undercarriage" (function carriers, rail clamp, etc.) gives it a bit more height than a folder in the same format, but it's extremely quick to set up. The other option (given a 4x5 and a "mansized" pack alluded to above;)) is to leave the camera on a longer rail and use a wastepaper basket or other rigid container so that the camera hangs upside down from a "cradle."

Otherwise, another option to put on your radar is the Linhof TK ("Technikardan") which combines the compactness of a folder with some of the advantages of a monorail. (FWIW, you might check out forum member Gabe's recent contribution to the "Landscape" thread that he made with his TK--it's a great example of using rear tilt out in the field. Again, you could probably do it with a Horseman, but not nearly as "organically" as with a monorail.)

[michaelfoto]

The Sinar F series is not that heavy and can be folded for transport in several different ways. It is also a perfect learners camera, as its easy to see the movements and their effects.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51162474390_b7e511ae85_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq)Transportklar til venstre og kampklar til højre. (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq) by Michael G (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63506895@N05/), on Flickr

[Bernice Loui]

The current fashion and interest with those moving from roll film (35mm or 120) or digital has been vast majority focused on light weight field foldable view cameras. As a group, they tend to carry over their previous experiences with fixed-lens box based camera/lens and such to their view camera adventures not knowing the view camera is a very different item in many ways. Essentially, much of what was habituated does not apply when it comes to brand loyalty and lens choices and much more.

Given your interest in macro images and landscapes which appear to be of prime interest to many first venturing into the view camera stuff, a field foldable camera IS a significant limitation. Field foldables like the Toyo 45 (letter-series) and similar have very significant limitations on what lenses can be used. Cameras like these are happiest with lens focal lengths of 125mm to 210mm for normal image reproduction ratios (infinity to ~ some what less). Wide angle lenses are a problem, longer than normal focal lengths (tele) are a problem as would be macro due to the camera-bellows draw needed. Specifically, if you're wanting to apply a 180mm lens for "macro" images, close focus cannot be achieved as a shorter focal length lens becomes a must. With this enforces moving closer to the macro image subject.

If you're ok with being limited to lens focal lengths about 125mm to 210mm, the a camera like the Toyo 45 series could be good.

Essentially, image goals first, lenses required to achieve these image goals then camera to support these needs.

The long time completely biased option for a view camera would be Sinar. Sinar Norma or F for field and most "portable" image needs, Sinar P and similar for studio or similar indoor not really "portable" image needs. Take the time to read this previous discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)

And... monorail view cameras tend to be easier to learn how to "view camera" as they tend to be more and easily visible with simplified access to camera movement controls.

As for acquiring a view camera outfit for $1K or less, should not be that much of a problem even in these days of bursting view camera popularity, long as one stays away from fashionable internet driven camera-lens-etc choices. LFF does have a for sale classified section that can work good for wheeling-dealing.

Be ready to waste plenty of sheet film in the journey to learn how to view camera.


Bernice











As for my budget, I'm one of those ebayers buying old cameras that are in decent shape and getting by (many times the cameras are great, sometimes not). My budget is <$1000 for the camera and lens (I know, a tall order!).

I haven't really considered a monorail system because I was under the impression it can't broken down and placed in a backpack. If this can be done it may be an option for me. The monorails are selling for a lot less than the technical and field cameras, and they do appear very sturdy! I'll do more research to see if such a rig would work for me in the field - a bit more time with set-up is no problem for me, but I have to be able to haul it on the trails. Thanks so much for your comments, I'll research further!

[maltfalc]

4x5 macro is for hardcore masochists only. :P

[justlikeswimming]

Sinar monorails can be a lot faster to set up and shoot than a technical camera, but tend to take up more pack space if configured ready-to-go. I've worked with Sinars all along in the mountains, but not exclusively. The Sinar system is Wunderbar for closeup work.

Thanks Drew, I'll check out the Sinar as a possible camera to pack. It sounds like a great camera for macro!

[justlikeswimming]

Depends on how big your pack is.;)

As r.e. mentioned, you can certainly carry a monorail on a short rail: that's how I roll with my Sinar Norma. The "undercarriage" (function carriers, rail clamp, etc.) gives it a bit more height than a folder in the same format, but it's extremely quick to set up. The other option (given a 4x5 and a "mansized" pack alluded to above;)) is to leave the camera on a longer rail and use a wastepaper basket or other rigid container so that the camera hangs upside down from a "cradle."

Otherwise, another option to put on your radar is the Linhof TK ("Technikardan") which combines the compactness of a folder with some of the advantages of a monorail. (FWIW, you might check out forum member Gabe's recent contribution to the "Landscape" thread that he made with his TK--it's a great example of using rear tilt out in the field. Again, you could probably do it with a Horseman, but not nearly as "organically" as with a monorail.)

Thanks CreationBear, looks like my pack is going to get bigger! The options your present for carrying a monorail might work for me. Gabe's picture is wonderful!

[justlikeswimming]

The current fashion and interest with those moving from roll film (35mm or 120) or digital has been vast majority focused on light weight field foldable view cameras. As a group, they tend to carry over their previous experiences with fixed-lens box based camera/lens and such to their view camera adventures not knowing the view camera is a very different item in many ways. Essentially, much of what was habituated does not apply when it comes to brand loyalty and lens choices and much more.

Given your interest in macro images and landscapes which appear to be of prime interest to many first venturing into the view camera stuff, a field foldable camera IS a significant limitation. Field foldables like the Toyo 45 (letter-series) and similar have very significant limitations on what lenses can be used. Cameras like these are happiest with lens focal lengths of 125mm to 210mm for normal image reproduction ratios (infinity to ~ some what less). Wide angle lenses are a problem, longer than normal focal lengths (tele) are a problem as would be macro due to the camera-bellows draw needed. Specifically, if you're wanting to apply a 180mm lens for "macro" images, close focus cannot be achieved as a shorter focal length lens becomes a must. With this enforces moving closer to the macro image subject.

If you're ok with being limited to lens focal lengths about 125mm to 210mm, the a camera like the Toyo 45 series could be good.

Essentially, image goals first, lenses required to achieve these image goals then camera to support these needs.

The long time completely biased option for a view camera would be Sinar. Sinar Norma or F for field and most "portable" image needs, Sinar P and similar for studio or similar indoor not really "portable" image needs. Take the time to read this previous discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)

And... monorail view cameras tend to be easier to learn how to "view camera" as they tend to be more and easily visible with simplified access to camera movement controls.

As for acquiring a view camera outfit for $1K or less, should not be that much of a problem even in these days of bursting view camera popularity, long as one stays away from fashionable internet driven camera-lens-etc choices. LFF does have a for sale classified section that can work good for wheeling-dealing.

Be ready to waste plenty of sheet film in the journey to learn how to view camera.


Bernice

Thanks for you info, Bernice, and others! I'm seriously considering a monorail - much greater movements and control is definitely appealing! Certainly the boxy format of the technical cameras is less intimidating to me, probably a big factor in initially leaning in that direction. You folks are opening my eyes to new (and likely more rewarding) possibilities, thank you!

[justlikeswimming]

4x5 macro is for hardcore masochists only. :P

Yes, I'm solidly in the medium format macro masochist camp - why not go bigger!;)

[justlikeswimming]

The Sinar F series is not that heavy and can be folded for transport in several different ways. It is also a perfect learners camera, as its easy to see the movements and their effects.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51162474390_b7e511ae85_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq)Transportklar til venstre og kampklar til højre. (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq) by Michael G (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63506895@N05/), on Flickr

Thanks Michael for showing how the sinar F can be broken down - there may be some creative ways to get the camera into a more portable package after all!

[Mark Sampson]

The best trick for making a Sinar-F more portable is to find, and use, the much smaller Norma rail clamp.

[Gabe]

I'm not that familiar with the practicality of a 'tophat' in the field.

Just be aware that a top hat board will offset the rear nodal point of the lens to be forward of the pivot point of the front standard. In practice this means tilts or swings of the front standard will also shift the image significantly, which will then need to be compensated for using counter-shift movements of the standards. Note that telephoto lens designs also inherently do this because their nodal point is in front of the lens rather than within it.

These factors are especially relevant to macro work, so if you plan to do a lot of that I would avoid a top hat board if you can.

[unityofsaints]

Within my very limited budget

Intrepid 4x5" MK4.

[jnantz]

I was reminded by a very wise man on another forum a few weeks ago that any 4x5 camera purchased as a first camera is most likely the wrong camera. Hopefully this takes some of the pressure off you OP. People will suggest all sorts of things they imagine will fit your unique situation but in the end, only after you kick the tires and take it for a test drive will you realize if it actually works the way you work and it's you. Just make sure if you need bellows extension for your macro work and landscape work you have it, or you have a tele lens ( and if you use a Symmar convertible you realize converted it needs MORE than the FL to focus at infinity ); running out of bellows is a bummer. I hate to suggest this but you might actually look into getting a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 reducing back. a lot of 4x5 lenses cover a 5x7 negative swimmingly and you will usually have enough bellows.

[CreationBear]

I hate to suggest this but you might actually look into getting a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 reducing back. a lot of 4x5 lenses cover a 5x7 negative swimmingly and you will usually have enough bellows.

Ha, now that Mr. Nantz has opened that can of worms, going to 5x7 was (literally:)) revelatory for me, just in terms of composing on the GG. Given the limitations of film selection, a 5x7 negative provides a wonderful platform for hybrid approaches, as well as being adequate for contact printing. A 4x5 back will bring color film back into play, though you'd probably want to have a bag bellows if you're looking to go "wide" in some of those rock houses up in the Plateau.

[Michael R]

I did something a little different. My first 4x5 camera was perfect, so I eventually swapped it for the wrong camera.


I was reminded by a very wise man on another forum a few weeks ago that any 4x5 camera purchased as a first camera is most likely the wrong camera. Hopefully this takes some of the pressure off you OP. People will suggest all sorts of things they imagine will fit your unique situation but in the end, only after you kick the tires and take it for a test drive will you realize if it actually works the way you work and it's you. Just make sure if you need bellows extension for your macro work and landscape work you have it, or you have a tele lens ( and if you use a Symmar convertible you realize converted it needs MORE than the FL to focus at infinity ); running out of bellows is a bummer. I hate to suggest this but you might actually look into getting a 5x7 camera with a 4x5 reducing back. a lot of 4x5 lenses cover a 5x7 negative swimmingly and you will usually have enough bellows.

[r.e.]

I did something a little different. My first 4x5 camera was perfect, so I eventually swapped it for the wrong camera.

Same here, except I still have my Arca-Swiss F-Line Discovery and I have no plans to swap it for the wrong camera :)

I don't always use it stock, though. Sometimes I swap out components.

Photos in post #8.

[Michael R]

Same here, except I still have my Arca-Swiss F-Line Discovery and I have no plans to swap it for the wrong camera :)

Wise move. I quickly regretted my decision at the time and then went through several cameras before finally settling on something similar enough to the first camera, but still not right. And of course I wasted money along the way. Stupidity.

[justlikeswimming]

Ha, now that Mr. Nantz has opened that can of worms, going to 5x7 was (literally:)) revelatory for me, just in terms of composing on the GG. Given the limitations of film selection, a 5x7 negative provides a wonderful platform for hybrid approaches, as well as being adequate for contact printing. A 4x5 back will bring color film back into play, though you'd probably want to have a bag bellows if you're looking to go "wide" in some of those rock houses up in the Plateau.

Ha, jnantz and CreationBear, last night I was thinking the same thing - 5x7 with reducing back! For contact printing (another future project of mine)...there's no harm looking at all the alternatives! Thanks!

[Bernice Loui]

Top hat and recessed lens boards are camera limitation "sorta-fix_it band-aids". If the camera has proper capability to fully support the lenses or optics required to meet the image goals, no top hat or recessed lens boards will be needed.

Or why focusing on the camera as top priority is not wise in many ways.

This is why knowing what the image goals are is SO important.

As been said many, many times previous. All view cameras are a fixed set of trade-offs with none being ideal for every possible image goal as the camera is essentially a light tight box that is flexi in the center to support the lens and image recording device (film or digital imager).

If you're deep into hiking long distances for days on end, it would be wise to choose a lightweight field foldable with lightweight/small lens set with compact film holders and such then fully accepting the limitations and trade-offs of these image goals. If you're doing work in a studio set up with controlled lighting and absolute need for ease of camera control and all that a geared movement monorail is going to be far more effective, easier to use in many ways than struggling with a lightweight field foldable.


Bernice



Just be aware that a top hat board will offset the rear nodal point of the lens to be forward of the pivot point of the front standard. In practice this means tilts or swings of the front standard will also shift the image significantly, which will then need to be compensated for using counter-shift movements of the standards. Note that telephoto lens designs also inherently do this because their nodal point is in front of the lens rather than within it.

These factors are especially relevant to macro work, so if you plan to do a lot of that I would avoid a top hat board if you can.

[justlikeswimming]

Many thanks to everyone who has commented! At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget. I'm a little worried about the weight, but I'm a tough old codger and think I can handle it for my typically 1-day in-an-out hikes. It'll be a while before I purchase (waiting for access to LFPF market, still shopping on ebay) and I may change my mind, but the possibility of having a somewhat portable camera that can offer so much control and even scale up to a larger format, well, I'm excited! Thanks again, all, really appreciate all your comments and welcome any other advice/comments! The search, and education, goes on!:)

[neil poulsen]

The Sinar F series is not that heavy and can be folded for transport in several different ways. It is also a perfect learners camera, as its easy to see the movements and their effects.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51162474390_b7e511ae85_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq)Transportklar til venstre og kampklar til højre. (https://flic.kr/p/2kX44aq) by Michael G (https://www.flickr.com/photos/63506895@N05/), on Flickr

I really like my Arca Swiss setup. I'm using an older style Arca "A" camera, but with a metric rear format frame, which combines advantages of both old and new. But, accessories, bellows, etc., for newer and older 171mm Arca's are getting harder to find, and those for the new 141mm Arca rarely come up. The same is true for the newer style 141mm cameras, and when one does see them on EBay, they're expensive.

For your purposes, I would highly recommend the Sinar F system. For a period of time, I purchased quite a lot of Sinar gear, because familiar with, and enjoyed using that system. It's very capable, and would especially be useful for macro work.

I've quoted the above that shows a Sinar "compacted" into, what I would call, a clumsy and space consuming package that's shown in the first photo. Through a simple customization on a standard 6" extension that I've documented on this site and in the following link, one can do much better.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-f-4x5-as-a-viable-field-camera.172997/

Note that the rear standard shown in the photos in the above link is a special version intended for copy work. But, it's not needed for the setup described. A regular Sinar F rear standard will work just fine.

With an intermediate Sinar F standard, or a Norma intermediate standard works even better, and a second bellows, one can get very long extensions using a long rail extension. In fact, a bag bellows can be used as opposed to a second accordion bellows.

Sinar is much less expensive than Arca, and much more available.


The best trick for making a Sinar-F more portable is to find, and use, the much smaller Norma rail clamp.

I agree with Mark on the above. One can sometimes find these available on EBay as a stand alone item. But I prefer a slightly different clamp, which is the clamp originally sold with the Sinar F cameras. It's shown in the link that I included above, and these clamps have all the same dimensions as the Norma clamp. I like the original F clamp, because it does not permit side to side tilt; I prefer using the tripod head for that degree of freedom. But either clamp will be a convenient space-saver.

I've also owned and used a Wista SP, and they're a fine camera. But, I don't think it has the bellows draw that you need for macro work. They made, and I had the bellows extension that one can fine for these cameras. But, they're not very stable and would likely require a second tripod to keep the whole system still.

[Bernice Loui]

Concerned about weight?
Sinar F weights about 6-7 pounds, Toyo 45FA, About 6.2 pounds, plus a whole lotta camera limitations, but does fold up into a box.
http://www.toyoview.com/Products/45AII/45AII.html

Camera should not be the prime focus of weight. Add up the weight of lenses, film holders, dark cloth, tripod and all related to what is required to make LF images, one extra pound in the camera within the overall is not significant.

Keep in mind, weight in the proper places means stability and vibration reduction. IMO, too many focus too much of the weight and "portability of the camera" while losing focus on the overall needs of view camera image making.

As to the Sinar F2, know the difference between the F, F+, F1.
220878

The F2 has front focus and different movement lock controls.
220877

Noted in the Sinar F2 flyer:
https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/00396/00396.pdf

Folding up an F2 with a Norma rail clamp.
220879

As noted in the Sinar instruction book:
220880


Bernice




Many thanks to everyone who has commented! At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget. I'm a little worried about the weight, but I'm a tough old codger and think I can handle it for my typically 1-day in-an-out hikes. It'll be a while before I purchase (waiting for access to LFPF market, still shopping on ebay) and I may change my mind, but the possibility of having a somewhat portable camera that can offer so much control and even scale up to a larger format, well, I'm excited! Thanks again, all, really appreciate all your comments and welcome any other advice/comments! The search, and education, goes on!:)

[Bernice Loui]

Or do the short rail Sinar Norma.
220881

Complete with Sinar shutter, lens in barrel (no shutter), packs as assembled. Remove the complete camera from the case, place it on the Sinar rail clamp on tripod & head, add rails as needed and proceed to setting up the image to be made. Way faster and easier than unfolding and setting up a field folder with a LOT more camera/lens ability.


Bernice

[CreationBear]

At this point I think I'm leaning toward the sinar f2, there are some possible good deals out there within my budget.

Ha, don't hate on us when you're thrashing through a rhododendron hell with sweat in your eyes and pecker gnats in your ears...;) (In truth, I think you'll find Sinars not much heavier, only more bulky, than other cameras in the same format.)

As I mentioned, I don't have nearly the experience that Bernice and others have with Sinars, but I'll throw out a few thoughts:

-- I haven't handled an F2, but I think there's a consensus that the Norma is a bit more rugged, if only for its all-metal construction. I suspect also its form factor is a bit more compact.

-- As for vendors, the auction site wouldn't be my first choice, since any Sinar you'll buy will likely be half a century old, with a number of moving parts that may or may not have had an adequate CLA.

-- If you do find yourself investing the Sinar ecosystem, the Sinar pan/tilt head comes highly recommended.

-- Remember that Sinars are eminently adaptable (not to mention addictive:)): you could get, say, a 4x5 to start your journey, then add 5x7 and/or 8x10 format change kits as you go along.

[jnantz]

Ha, now that Mr. Nantz has opened that can of worms, going to 5x7 was (literally:)) revelatory for me, just in terms of composing on the GG. Given the limitations of film selection, a 5x7 negative provides a wonderful platform for hybrid approaches, as well as being adequate for contact printing. A 4x5 back will bring color film back into play, though you'd probably want to have a bag bellows if you're looking to go "wide" in some of those rock houses up in the Plateau.

sorry about that, it was a can of worms that needed to be opened :)
and I figured since everyone was trying to sell one of them puny Sinars I might as
well mention a real camera LOL

[justlikeswimming]

Thanks so much Bernice, CreationBear, Neil and jnantz for taking the time to educate me about LF. If I can ask another question, where is a good site to purchase a sinar? As I mentioned earlier, I'm an ebayer (for good and bad) and came across this norma https://www.ebay.com/itm/265382976929?hash=item3dca0edda1:g:-D8AAOSwDsVhT7z6 that may or may not be something to consider. I've found some F2s on ebay as well.

I really do appreciate you folks! On my brief hike for photos this weekend (packing my MF gear) I was dreaming about how much more could be done with LF. One part of the trail was very steep, slick and hazardous (did fine) but I was thinking 'can I do this with an extra 10 -15 lbs - you bet!' I am stoked, folks, ready to go! Now where is that camera!!!;)

[Bernice Loui]

Virtually ANY Sinar Norma will need a proper clean-lube and parts check over. This is not that difficult to do for those mechanically inclined. There are enough resources on the web and on LFF to aid lots in this process.

This Nomra appears to have it's original bellows which is likely light leaky. Easy low cost fix is to replace it with a newer in proper condition Sinar 4x5 bellows and move on.
Expect the lubricants have turned into clay mixed with dirt. Otherwise, not a lot goes wrong with a Norma. The 150mm lens is bonus. Shutter might need clean-lube.

Accessories like extension rails, bag bellows and such should be easily available used via LFF classifieds, ebay or similar. Ask questions as needed.


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

EQUALLY EQUIPPED (In my case, with an 18 inch rail and equivalently long bellows), I find the Norma only about a pound heavier than the F2. It is a little bulkier, but more rigid too. They do need to be tuned up from time to time, which is fairly straightforward once you've learned how. I'd avoid an F+ or F1 unless you find a bargain one for sake of spare components; the front standard is less durable, and really just the same thing as an "intermediate bellows standard". Any of them are quite usable in the field. But no matter which specific model, with a Sinar you're buying into a very large system of options. Nearly everything is interchangeable. The only exception would be the oddball ultralight A1 Alpina, which has a completely different rail profile.

[CreationBear]

Forum moderator O-ren usually takes his Hanzo sword to outside links to sales ;), so I'll forgo commenting unless you'd like me to respond in a PM.

Otherwise, if Neil didn't link to the thread he started a while back, I've found his hack really genius:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera

Since he's dealing with an 8x10 which is of course being quite a bit thicker than your 4x5, he uses a cap/dowel as an extender to get the rail to about nine inches. You would be able to use the short rail by itself for the 4x5, but the nice thing about Neil's mod is that it gives you enough space to keep the rail bushing in place between the front and rear standards, basically letting you have a QR system.

[justlikeswimming]

Forum moderator O-ren usually takes his Hanzo sword to outside links to sales ;), so I'll forgo commenting unless you'd like me to respond in a PM.

Otherwise, if Neil didn't link to the thread he started a while back, I've found his hack really genius:

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?137209-Backpacking-a-Sinar-Norma-8x10-Camera

Since he's dealing with an 8x10 which is of course being quite a bit thicker than your 4x5, he uses a cap/dowel as an extender to get the rail to about nine inches. You would be able to use the short rail by itself for the 4x5, but the nice thing about Neil's mod is that it gives you enough space to keep the rail bushing in place between the front and rear standards, basically letting you have a QR system.

Feel free to PM, CreationBear, and thank you!

After reading very carefully the hack devised by Neil, it is indeed a very clever and effective way to compact the 8x10 system for packing. Something to think about as a packing solution for my future system.

I'm leaning toward the Norma (love the look) but have a few questions/comments, if anyone is patient enough to put up with a few more...
1) just to make sure, could I update the Norma to a 5x7 or larger? I know this possible with the F-series.
2)Can the rails be extended as with the later Sinar models? Also, much of the hardware can be exchanged between the Sinars but I'm not sure that extends to the earlier camera.
3) I was checking out 4x5s and came across the Horseman L45. I appreciated the gears and the macro rail function of the rail bushing, but it is a heavy beast. I would dismiss this camera immediately (due to weight), but then I saw a couple videos online. One video showed smooth geared movements using a L45, while another video using the F2 made the Sinar movements appear jerky and difficult. The Sinar user was speaking in German (which I don't understand), for all I know this was a fairly new camera to him or it needed a good CLA.

I'm OK with non-geared controls if they can be accurately adjusted and tightened down without excessive shifting. The Horseman would have to be much better to justify the weight (searching LFPF about the camera revealed some real haters of the Horseman).


I keep on coming up with new questions - you folks have been wonderful (and so patient), thanks so much! Any comments you have are greatly appreciated!

[LabRat]

Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

[otto.f]

If I infer from the Horseman and Wista what your budget is, I wonder why you didn’t consider a Chamonix. You’re mentioning rough hikes indeed, but I wonder if the difference with a Horseman would be significant, considering it’s almost twice the weight of a Chamonix. So if it bumps, it bumps harder. With the leather protection the Chamonix’s are quite safe in a backpack where the dark cloth serves as a protection too. Which is not to say that the Horseman isn’t an attractive camera.

[John Power]

Though new here myself, I am already repeatedly banging the drum for rails in backpacks. I've not once thought "I wish I had a folder".

This is a carry on sized backpack with my rail camera (the L45 mentioned above), 90, 135 and 300mm lenses, usually 4 holders, spotmeter, loupe, another meter, pen, filters, shutter cables, etc. Tripod straps to the side. I ride my mountain bike with this kit for hours without issue. I don't love it when an hour or two ride becomes more, but that's asking a lot.

Thinking about weight, think about the weight of the system... 600g or whatever this is over a lighter camera is next to nothing when everything else is in there.
220907

[Havoc]

Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

I think this is a very important point to consider.

[CreationBear]

Just to take up your questions:

1.) The most turn-key solution to change formats is to get what's termed a "format change kit" which is simply the carrier frame/GG assembly, bellows, and back standard of a 5x7 Sinar. Of course, since that's the "heart" of any Sinar camera, expect to pay a bit. (FWIW, I have both the 5x7 and 8x10 format change kits--what I'm finding is that there's no appreciable difference in size/weight between the two, which might affect your choices once you decide on your output.)

2.) Rails are certainly compatible and expandable--and indeed seem to be multiplying in my gear bins.;)

3.) I can't speak to efficacy/necessity of geared movements, though I had geared rise on my Horseman technical camera. As for my Norma, movements seem smooth, as does the geared fine-focus. I will say that "serious" backcountry macro work always struck me as a different kind of cat, so I would definitely ask for specific guidance from the folks on the board who do that kind of work.

[Bernice Loui]

For close up aka "macro" images a monorail has a distinct advantage over any field folder due to their innate differences. Field folders are mandated to have essentially a fixed rear that cannot easily and completely independently be moved from the front standard with the tripod support fixed.

Moving the front standard with lens alters the magnification or image reproduction ratio while moving the rear standard (film or digital imager) focuses the image. Fine focus front and rear allows fine tuning of both magnification / image ratio, rear fine focus tunes in the focus. Camera movements allow controlling what areas of the lens plane of focus to be adjusted/bent as needed within limits.

Second, a modular monorail like Sinar allows using an extra standard as a macro subject table which keeps camera to small subject moving-vibrating together as a unit. This aids significantly to keeping camera to subject movement in check. Essentially unlimited rail extension with complete modularity of the Sinar system allows using longer lens focal lengths promoting distance between lens to macro subject allowing proper lighting to be used. Know lighting is often MORE important than lens for macro images.

Sinar shutter allows using virtually any barrel lens (reverse mounted enlarger lenses work remarkable for macro images) or microscope objectives as lenses for macro low to modest magnification microscope images.


Again, this all goes back to image goals.

Bernice




Another consideration in the field vs monorail choice, is the OP mentioned macro work... When doing macro or very close-up focusing, the preferred setting is that the lens stays at a constant lens to subject distance, but the back can move slightly to focus... Front focusing cameras change the relationship drastically and plenty of not perfect focus points come up and hard to find the perfect focus point...

At even closer distances, camera is allowed to use one focus point, but camera itself is moved forward/backward until perfect focus is achieved...

An afternoon of shooting tiny objects will reveal the issues involved, and the fixes...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Format change within Sinar system is easy. This can be done by sliding off the current format back with bellows (example 4x5), then sliding on the complete format as needed with bellows (5x7, 8x10 or etc) on to the rail.

All Sinar modules mix-match from Norma to F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X, P3 and aux standards. All Sinar rails from Norma to last of production are completely interchangeable. Bellows are interchangeable from Norma to F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X long as the rear format frame matches.. with the exception of 8x10 as the metering back -vs- non metering back have a different rear bellows frame.

One example of mixing Norma with P2 with an aux standard to aid in extending bellows/camera extension. This is important for macro or much longer than normal focal length lenses (tele). No "top hat" lens board need in any way.
220908

Compressed to allow using short focal length (wide angle) lenses without a recessed board or similar fuss. Mixed Norma and P2.
220909

More Sinar modularity..
220910

Geared movements are easier and faster to use in studio type settings where precise, accurate and repeatable camera movements, they are by no means mandatory. Non geared camera movements that are smooth and precise are in ways faster and easier to used as they allow far faster setting by direct movement -vs- knob twisting. Geared camera movements adds weight and complexity to any view camera.


Bernice

[jnantz]

Thanks so much Bernice, CreationBear, Neil and jnantz for taking the time to educate me about LF. If I can ask another question, where is a good site to purchase a sinar?
I am stoked, folks, ready to go! Now where is that camera!!!;)

Sorry I can't really help you there, I know nothing about Sinars other than when I was looking to buy a LF camera I couldn't afford one!
I remember the sales guy at the local shop chewing my boss' ear off about the geared rise and fall and all the other lovely things it was capable of doing.
In the end I just got something that worked and didn't worry about all the bells and whistles.
Good luck finding your new toy!
John

[Daniel Unkefer]

Feel free to PM, CreationBear, and thank you!

After reading very carefully the hack devised by Neil, it is indeed a very clever and effective way to compact the 8x10 system for packing. Something to think about as a packing solution for my future system.

I'm leaning toward the Norma (love the look) but have a few questions/comments, if anyone is patient enough to put up with a few more...
1) just to make sure, could I update the Norma to a 5x7 or larger? I know this possible with the F-series.
2)Can the rails be extended as with the later Sinar models? Also, much of the hardware can be exchanged between the Sinars but I'm not sure that extends to the earlier camera.
3) I was checking out 4x5s and came across the Horseman L45. I appreciated the gears and the macro rail function of the rail bushing, but it is a heavy beast. I would dismiss this camera immediately (due to weight), but then I saw a couple videos online. One video showed smooth geared movements using a L45, while another video using the F2 made the Sinar movements appear jerky and difficult. The Sinar user was speaking in German (which I don't understand), for all I know this was a fairly new camera to him or it needed a good CLA.

I'm OK with non-geared controls if they can be accurately adjusted and tightened down without excessive shifting. The Horseman would have to be much better to justify the weight (searching LFPF about the camera revealed some real haters of the Horseman).


I keep on coming up with new questions - you folks have been wonderful (and so patient), thanks so much! Any comments you have are greatly appreciated!


Sinar Normas are out there, Ebay.com, Ebay.de and Ebay UK have more listings. Googling Sinar Norma has turned up some interesting old accessories. If you are diligent it is doable.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51091004783_e4305ba4ef_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kQJKJP)Fully Functioning Fastest Sinar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2kQJKJP) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr


My Twin Lens 4x5 Norma; It is shown with a matched set of Durst 300mm Componons
I suggest you buy an instruction book which discusses all the major accessories. Old catalogs show what is available.

[Tin Can]

Had a P 5X7 conversion kit with the bigger rear frame for a meter on a stick

I grew to hate the GG frame as it always bit my fingers, with the TOO strong GG springs

I wasn't going to buy the stick meter either

and that P had the Factory faulty mechanical rotary switch, which P2 eliminated

Gladly sold it

never buy a P

I like my 2 Norma, but too nice for me to beat trees out of my way

Trailer Queens

[Drew Wiley]

Other than focus gearing, there's no need for geared controls in the field. In fact, something geared like a Sinar P or X or C might be a distinct liability in the field, not only due to excess weight, but due to the potential for blowing sand or grit getting caught in all that gearing. The classic old Norma is an excellent compromise between the greater rigidity of the P and the superior portability of the F series, being just slightly heavier. All you sacrifice are "yaw-free" controls, which might be nice for tabletop production work in an a plane-controlled studio environment, but are largely redundant in the field, or even for architecture. Nearly all my closeup work is done in the field, and monorails are ideal in that respect, though if I'm carrying a flatbed camera instead, it's not going to stop me from setting up for a tempting closeup shot. Just not as convenient.

Incidentally, I shock as well as thermally cushion my view camera in the top compartment of my pack by simply tucking them into my goosedown jacket (itself wrapped in a big plastic bag to prevent it from getting wet - wet outerwear can cost you your life in the mountains). I lesser circumstances, ordinary commercial bubble wrap does the trick.

[justlikeswimming]

After listening to all the good advice I made the plunge - Norma it is! Upon closer examination, I think the fine-tuned movements allowed by each standard will serve well for control. While geared is nice, goodness knows I'll spend all the time necessary to get the focus just right, gears or no gears. And of course, the weight/benefits ratio just wasn't great enough to justify the Horseman. The Norma is so sturdy looking (unlike later Sinars) and can do everything I need at much less weight. Made the ebay purchase (after many questions to the seller, who took it all with humor and grace), hopefully all will go well!

I don't know whether to dance for joy or vomit from nerves! Good photo times on the way! Thanks again, folks, you've been great! I'll let you know when I get film developed.

[CreationBear]

Norma it is!

Excellent, that was a good grab I think! I'm sure you'll pack/re-pack a lot trying to figure out how to work out of your pack, but my particular approach was to use a Hefty brand 18L storage bin (I got mine at Lowes) that I lined with some Reflectix I had lying around to make a redneck ICU. If you're able to keep the lid on and still fit it in your pack, I'd guess it will contain your entire kit--a pretty streamlined solution if you're working in a brier patch.

[justlikeswimming]

Excellent, that was a good grab I think! I'm sure you'll pack/re-pack a lot trying to figure out how to work out of your pack, but my particular approach was to use a Hefty brand 18L storage bin (I got mine at Lowes) that I lined with some Reflectix I had lying around to make a redneck ICU. If you're able to keep the lid on and still fit it in your pack, I'd guess it will contain your entire kit--a pretty streamlined solution if you're working in a brier patch.

Sounds like a good idea! Those storage bins come in all sorts of configurations, I'll figure out something that'll work. I like the idea of a box in a bag, more protection with a lid that can be popped on quickly if needed for protection. I have a tripod that's rated for 70+ lbs, and 2 different tripod heads that should get the job done. a couple film holders and film, then it's time to try her out!

[Tin Can]

I suggest you read Norma manuals 5 times before you get the thing

When you get it, be slow and gentle

Some are damaged already

[Bernice Loui]

Most common issues for any Sinar Norma that has been un-used, un-maintained for years-decades, the lubricant dries out into hard clay with dust and dirt. This can greatly prevent ease of camera movement as needed. A GOOD clean, re-lube and proper adjust will make the Norma good or better than new.
Do a search on LFF, there is good information on proper clean/lube/adjust archived on LFF.

If this Norma still has the original bellows, it will likely have light leaks due to age and more. Get a GOOD modern Sinar 4x5 bellows as a replacement, if from an eBay seller, make sure there are rights of return and seller states the bellows is in GOOD condition. Given these bellows were made-sold for decades, the standard square bellows comes in a few versions.

The original Norma tapered bellows (as on this Norma just purchased) is made of leather, supple, durable and allows more extension and ease of camera movement compared to later versions of the Sinar 4x5 bellows. Custom Bellows in the UK can make them new today.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164634-Sinar-F2-Vs-Sinar-Norma-(4x5)/page7
Post# 68


This is what the second version or first version of the Sinar square bellows looks like. The frame does not have a cut out. Bellows material is moderately flexible, durable but not as flexi and camera movement accommodating as the original Norma bellows. Functionally, GOOD.
220929


Last production version of the Sinar 4x5 square bellows has a cut out in the center of the bellows frame. Bellows material is stiffer but way durable and essentially tough and rugged. Functionally Good enough.
220930

Used both version over many years, there is not a lot of functional difference. Never tried to over extend any of these bellows, if more bellows/camera extension is needed, add Sinar standards and as many bellows with rail as needed.


Horseman L series bellows work identical to Sinar on the Norma.


Bernice





After listening to all the good advice I made the plunge - Norma it is!
Made the ebay purchase (after many questions to the seller, who took it all with humor and grace), hopefully all will go well!

[Daniel Unkefer]

Download of original Sinar Norma Brochure (1970 dated) -- Shows some of the accessories

https://www.pacificrimcamera.com/rl/01033/01033.pdf

[Drew Wiley]

T-shirt weather here today; couldn't pass that up, and yes, I was out with my Norma. Prior to me, mine had only ever been used in the same studio overseas the whole time, and the original bellows was in almost like-new condition. Then, just in case, I located another original Norma bellows completely unused. I already had a number of Sinar and Horsemen special as well as regular bellows. But the original Norma tapered bellows is especially versatile and deluxe. The only reason I can think of why they discontinued them was that they might have just been too darn expensive to keep making.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895945652_7cbcf0b05f_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895120703_82357a5c60_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

These are most (but not all) of the available accessories.

[Bob Salomon]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895945652_7cbcf0b05f_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895120703_82357a5c60_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

These are most (but not all) of the available accessories.

The good old days. I had traded my Plaubel that I had gotten from Olden for the Sinar 45 Expert outfit. Problem was in my studio in Darien, CT the rails kept “rusting”. They would develop some type of rust red oxidation. The Sinar Product Manager from Paillard, Norbert Kleber, would make several trips to replace them.
This was, of course, before he opened FotoCare in Manhattan but he may have already have opened his gallery.

[r.e.]

The Sinar Product Manager from Paillard, Norbert Kleber, would make several trips to replace them.
This was, of course, before he opened FotoCare in Manhattan but he may have already have opened his gallery.

Just curious... So this gentleman Norbert Kleber owned FotoCare before Jeffrey Hirsch and family took over in 1990?

[Bob Salomon]

Just curious... So this gentleman Norbert Kleber owned FotoCare before Jeffrey Hirsch and family took over in 1990?

Yes. Norbert hired Jeff from Fishkin Bros. In Pert Amboy.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I just realized that I have every lens listed in the above Norma catalog, excepting the 800mm F9 Apo Ronar. LOL Oh Well :)

Lots of fun ahead

[jnantz]

These are most (but not all) of the available accessories.


I looked at the prices and was like, holy mackerel this place has a lot of deals! then I realized it was 1966 :)
fun catalog!
thanks :)
==

justlikeswimming
I'm not sure what kind of travel backpacking system you might be planning to use ( or if you plan on using one at all )
I have always heard great things about Bruce's Photobackpacker * system. Made by a photographer, for photographers.
Once in a while they come up for sale, keep your eyes open because people that use them say they are fantastic


* I think it's Bruce ? if its not sorry not-Bruce I tried. ...


John

[r.e.]

Yes. Norbert hired Jeff from Fishkin Bros. In Pert Amboy.

I don't mean to take this too far astray, but some may be interested in this internet post from 2004 about Fishkin Bros. closing its doors: https://www.photography-forums.com/threads/fishkin-bros-camera-to-go-out-of-business.14132/

Given the New York market, which includes operations like B&H and Adorama, it's an accomplishment that FotoCare continues to have a strong client base in 2021, more than 50 years after Norbert Kleber started the business.

[Bernice Loui]

Ken Hansen Photographic in New York was another along with FotoCare.


There was a time when speciality stores served the LF view camera market in remarkable ways.


Bernice

[LabRat]

I don't mean to take this too far astray, but some may be interested in this internet post from 2004 about Fishkin Bros. closing its doors: https://www.photography-forums.com/threads/fishkin-bros-camera-to-go-out-of-business.14132/



I grew up around the corner from Fishkin's, hung out there a lot, and even worked there for a spell... Learned a lot, and was a primer for the foto industry for me... Most all of my early gear and supplies came from them...

But even before the internet, many would "shop" there, but buy grey market in nearby NYC (sound familiar in a "brick & mortar" way???) They considered moving north outside NYC to Rt 22 area, but the internet buying was taking a firm hold on sales business, so they let it go...

FYI, they were the principal contact dealer for the nearby Sinar distributor center...

Bob, Jeff & Bill were kool!!! ;-)

Steve K

[r.e.]

I grew up around the corner from Fishkin's, hung out there a lot, and even worked there for a spell... Learned a lot, and was a primer for the foto industry for me... Most all of my early gear and supplies came from them...

But even before the internet, many would "shop" there, but buy grey market in nearby NYC (sound familiar in a "brick & mortar" way???) They considered moving north outside NYC to Rt 22 area, but the internet buying was taking a firm hold on sales business, so they let it go...

FYI, they were the principal contact dealer for the nearby Sinar distributor center...

Bob, Jeff & Bill were kool!!! ;-)

FotoCare (which Jeff Hirsch moved to from Fishkin's, and has owned since 1990) occasionally does interviews with prominent photographers who are clients, and posts them to its YouTube channel. This one, with photographer, filmmaker and painter Neal Slavin (https://www.nealslavin.com/HOME/1), is a bit unusual. It's about a portrait that Slavin did of all of the people who work at FotoCare. There's a good deal of footage showing the shop and the street outside (22nd Street between 5th and 6th Avenues). Jeff Hirsch is at the front of the photo in the checked shirt (05:58 and 09:15 of the video).


Behind the Shot with Neal Slavin


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBI2JSwKOtY&t=242s

[LabRat]

FotoCare occasionally does interviews with prominent photographers who are clients, and posts them to its YouTube channel. This one, with photographer and filmmaker Neal Slavin (https://www.nealslavin.com/HOME/1), is a bit unusual. It's about a portrait that Slavin did of all of the people who work at FotoCare. There are a fair number of shots showing the shop and the street outside (22nd Street between 5th and 6th Avenues).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBI2JSwKOtY&t=242s

Thanks, I'll check out the video, but I'm not sure I can handle seeing people I dealt with over 40 years ago and what they might look like now!!! Jeff was cute, young looking, and geeky, but time has a way of doing stuff to people... :-0

Was thinking about my "withdrawal symptoms" from having the great service from this renowned dealer a block from my house, giving me great deals on stuff I needed to get started with, plenty of help, and great advice... Moved to NYC, and felt almost lost there shopping with surly/rude high pressure (when you got their attention) salespersons, and was very stressful... (I was shocked when I found someone who was nice and honest!!!)

Often, a friend or relative would rope me into going into "the city" to buy a camera or something... I said just to go to Fishkin's and buy one, but they wanted to save money (maybe just $30), and it became a safari where the hunter became the hunted... I caught sellers trying to unload defective gear (with no return policy), objecting to my insistence on opening and checking item before leaving store (but it's new in the box!!!!) only to find the shutter was stuck open... Or that dealer (that starts with a B) was as creepy as a catacomb and was insisting that the new item had a USA warranty, but the warranty "card" was a half-faded Xerox written in Farsi... I couldn't afford shopping at the higher end dealers, but at least was pleased I discovered some outright scams right in the stores... But went home almost shaking... I at least figure there were not in the restaurant business, so no one dies of food poisoning... ;-)

When I got to Hollywood years ago, still some good dealers around, but the beginning of the end of an era... Most all are gone... Camera shows were fun, deals to be had, but good I had the ability to check items before I purchased (also gone here now)...

Also remember first buying gear from new-to-me sources... My first 4X5 view camera came from a swap meet down south, and was sweating bullets trying to find defects that were a deal killer... Turns out camera was good, and still love using to this day (Graphic View II) and made me a lot of $$$...

I don't mind buying stuff with some issues I can fix, but it better be a bargain!!! Been noticing on that auction site many items have issues I noticed but have not been able to win an auction while others have been outbidding each other beyond belief for stuff with unlisted issues I can see, but taking on face value... (I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn, folks!!!) Hard to get a bargain for a parts unit item now online...

Deep inside, I still feel a little weird buying something sight unseen online, but wish the newcomers had a chance to interact with the pro sellers, kick tires, and feel good that they made a good, informed decision!!!

Steve K

[justlikeswimming]

I looked at the prices and was like, holy mackerel this place has a lot of deals! then I realized it was 1966 :)
fun catalog!
thanks :)
==

justlikeswimming
I'm not sure what kind of travel backpacking system you might be planning to use ( or if you plan on using one at all )
I have always heard great things about Bruce's Photobackpacker * system. Made by a photographer, for photographers.
Once in a while they come up for sale, keep your eyes open because people that use them say they are fantastic


* I think it's Bruce ? if its not sorry not-Bruce I tried. ...


John

Thanks Jnantz, I found and article about the RPT P3 photobackpacker online, it looks like a wonderful bag! I guess the company is no more, maybe I'll come across one used but in good condition one day - I'll keep and eye out.

[jmdavis]

The most difficult part of many things is starting. I assume that you have ordered the Norma, get a lens, a cable release, some holders, a tripod and some film and START. You can carry your gear in those flexible padded coolers inside an existing backpack. You will carry your tripod over your shoulder or in one of your hands.

[Drew Wiley]

Any serious hiking and you'll want the tripod strapped or tucked to the pack too, leaving both hands free for trekking poles. A Norma is vastly more comfortable in a true external frame backpack than a teardrop padded one. I simply drop mine into a Rubbermaid kitchen wastebasket that fits snugly in the top compartment of a vintage US-made Kelty pack (no relation to the neo-Kelty line made in China). That leaves plenty of room for not only lenses and filmholders, but enough real gear to keep you warm and dry if the weather turns nasty.

I used to go on up to 10 day backpacks in the mountains with Sinar gear that manner - food, tent, sleeping bag, even a short length of climbing rope, the whole nine yards. And the empty pack itself weighed less than most of these dedicated camera packs with all their heavy redundant padding. I'd just wrap the camera in my goosedown jacket, though ordinary bubble packing will do fine too.

[CreationBear]

A Norma is vastly more comfortable in a true external frame backpack

Ha, Drew: knowing the OP's AO up on the Plateau, with an external he might have to lash on some sourwood saplings to serve as runners and pull it like a land-sledge.;)

Seriously though, I'm all for "purpose built" hiking packs (internal or external) for this kind of work--I run a tricked out 6500 cu in pack, though you'll have to keep an eye on pack dimensions. (Certainly the "old school" externals will often work, as well as vintage Dana internal frames; if you need an excuse for a new pack--and who doesn't?;)--some of the bigger Mystery Ranch packs have some neat design features as well.

[justlikeswimming]

Any serious hiking and you'll want the tripod strapped or tucked to the pack too, leaving both hands free for trekking poles. A Norma is vastly more comfortable in a true external frame backpack than a teardrop padded one. I simply drop mine into a Rubbermaid kitchen wastebasket that fits snugly in the top compartment of a vintage US-made Kelty pack (no relation to the neo-Kelty line made in China). That leaves plenty of room for not only lenses and filmholders, but enough real gear to keep you warm and dry if the weather turns nasty.

I used to go on up to 10 day backpacks in the mountains with Sinar gear that manner - food, tent, sleeping bag, even a short length of climbing rope, the whole nine yards. And the empty pack itself weighed less than most of these dedicated camera packs with all their heavy redundant padding. I'd just wrap the camera in my goosedown jacket, though ordinary bubble packing will do fine too.

I don't anticipate going on multi-day hikes (sadly), but a smaller frame pack might be the best choice for a solid day of hard travel with Norma. I'll find out soon, thanks for the ideas! 10 days on the trail, I can only dream...

[Rod Klukas]

The 45FA while a nice camera, also has some flaws. If you fail to move the track when folding, to the correct position, you can bend the ears or rear last 1/2" of the track rails. This can be disastrous and hard to find a new track.

I used the Wista SP for several years while getting my MFA. It was excellent and there are extensions and long bellows available. While there is a wide bellows also available, it bunches up and so the SP camera is best with 90mm or longer lenses without the bag bellows.
The friction drive, sort of geared, front tilt, is also very nice as is the fact you have both front and rear swing.

I actually went to an Arca-Swiss because I was interested in using wide angles more.
All box type cameras, such as the 45FA, Toyo 45A, and a lot of the wood field types, have trouble with lenses shorter than about 90mm due the 'box', that forms the rear standard. Arca-Swiss offers new 4x5 Universalis that is quite light.

Hope this adds info for you.

[fly fisher]

Hi, if it's any help, I have been using a Calumet mono rail with an Ilex 8 1/2 inch lens and a Speed Graphic with a Schneider 150 mm. I am looking for a Graphlock 120 film back to fit both cameras. Of all the LF cameras out there these two are probably the least expensive. I would love to have a Swiss Arca set up, but it's way out of my price range.

[djdister]

Affordable 4x5 cameras are offered for sale every week on this forum, which you will see after being a member for 30 days. I suggest buying any decent affordable kit and just start shooting now, since the cameras and film will be getting less affordable and less available as time passes by.


After searching for an affordable 4x5 for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that there simply aren't many available on the market and that it’s better to wait until you can afford the camera you want.

[r.e.]

After searching for an affordable 4x5 for a long time, I have come to the conclusion that there simply aren't many available on the market and that it’s better to wait until you can afford the camera you want.

I imagine that a fair number of people go though the process that @abruzzi describes in the above post, but not everyone does. I decided that I wanted a monorail and purchased an Arca-Swiss Discovery as my first large format camera. This was Arca's entry-level camera, marketed at an attractive price to photography students. I've added bits and pieces to the Discovery over time, so now I can configure it for 4x5 or 8x10. The Arca has worked fine, including for travel. I've never used a field camera or felt the need to.*

I'm just posting this to point out that sometimes one's first large format purchase works out well, not to recommend Arca's cameras in particular.


Photo and specs for the Arca-Swiss Discovery
from an old B&H catalogue.

223548


My Discovery. This is stock except that I've changed out
the Discovery function carriers, which work by friction,
for geared ones. Friction works fine, geared is nice to have.

223549


Here, I've added an Arca leather bag bellows for use with
wide angle lenses, in this case a 75mm Rodenstock.

223550



* I also have a 5x7 monorail (a Linhof Kardan Bi), but only because second-hand 5x7 parts for my Arca are hard to come by and the condition of the Linhof and price were right.

[xkaes]

Hi, if it's any help, I have been using a Calumet mono rail with an Ilex 8 1/2 inch lens and a Speed Graphic with a Schneider 150 mm. I am looking for a Graphlock 120 film back to fit both cameras. Of all the LF cameras out there these two are probably the least expensive. I would love to have a Swiss Arca set up, but it's way out of my price range.

Just a quick look at EBAY right now shows THREE DOZEN Calumet 4x5 cameras starting at $100. You can't get any cheaper than that. Lenses can also be found for around the same price -- often much less!

Then you can worry about the cost of film!

[Corran]

A brief glance at Facebook and the "Large Format Photo Gear B/S/T Group" showed me an $80 Calumet monorail, a $100 Omega monorail, a $225 Sinar monorail, and a plethora of lenses of varying types and prices.

You can also simply order a new Intrepid for about $400.

It is easy to put together a fantastic 4x5 kit with several lenses for what many pay for a mid-tier DSLR or an average inexpensive Leica 35mm camera. Unfortunately, beater Crown or Speed Graphics for $50 or so are basically a thing of the past, but even those can be found with a lens for $250 or so.

[xkaes]

It is easy to put together a fantastic 4x5 kit with several lenses for what many pay for a mid-tier DSLR or an average inexpensive Leica 35mm camera.

Here's an even less expensive way:

http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm (http://www.subclub.org/fujinon/close-up.htm)

[Tin Can]

Maybe I am wrong as usual, but I read the OP Title as his standards are high

Got a pun in there too

[sharktooth]

... and where is the OP with his first LF camera?

[abruzzi]

Maybe I am wrong as usual, but I read the OP Title as his standards are high

Got a pun in there too

I do have to raise my standards on the F to get it to fold down properly, but once its setup, I have to lower my standards, otherwise I can't get any rise out of them.

[Tin Can]

Lol


i do have to raise my standards on the f to get it to fold down properly, but once its setup, i have to lower my standards, otherwise i can't get any rise out of them.