Lowest temperature for C-41 / E-6 cross-processing?

[bob carnie]

I am about to do a lot of hand colour processing, basically E6 and C41, I want to cross process colour neg in E6 material, and I also want to solarize colour neg and E6, so as you can imagine colour accuracy is not my goal. I would love to do it at room temp if possible but would like some opinions as to what would be my minimal temp. I plan to process with hangers and mid development flash the film and put back in developer.220705 I have done a lot of this in the past, pretty difficult getting the temp up to 100 degrees which in the past I did, my life would be a lot easier if I could run at room temp for both E6 and C41.

[Tin Can]

Very interesting!

[Bernice Loui]

See post# 24:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165853-Should-Kodak-Fuji-rethink-color-sheet-film-for-room-temp-processing/page3


Bernice

[bob carnie]

See post# 24:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165853-Should-Kodak-Fuji-rethink-color-sheet-film-for-room-temp-processing/page3


Bernice

Not sure if this is directed at me...but the type of work I am exploring is difficult to achieve at 100degrees, also if I want perfection of colour layers I get it, but not the scope of my work with solarization

[Bernice Loui]

Get a Jobo process and or the required processing hardware. Problem solved.

Meeting the needs of the photochemical process is the proper way, trying to bend what has been long established as good working process from many decades of research-development to meet individual wants often ends with dis-satisfaction..

Much depends on expectations of the color film processing results.


Bernice





Not sure if this is directed at me...but the type of work I am exploring is difficult to achieve at 100degrees, also if I want perfection of colour layers I get it, but not the scope of my work with solarization

[bob carnie]

Get a Jobo process and or the required processing hardware. Problem solved.

Meeting the needs of the photochemical process is the proper way, trying to bend what has been long established as good working process from many decades of research-development to meet individual wants often ends with dis-satisfaction..

Much depends on expectations of the color film processing results.


Bernice

Thanks for the Mansplaining on this issue, you seem a bit out of touch.

[stawastawa]

I developed some c41 at room temp. specifically expired E3 and E4 ektachrome. but also some random recent c41 films I added to the run. Try 65-70 degrees, I bet you can go lower but would then consider extending development time further. sounds like you already have lots of additional variables to play with! good luck!, have fun.

Everything except those orange tulips was tank developed in c41 unicolor chemistry warm or at room temp in a garage in spring/winter.
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=67473358%40N06&view_all=1&text=c41
process info: Developing E3 E4 Ektachrome slide films in C41: (https://lifeofstawa.wordpress.com/hidden/resources/developing-e3-e4-ektachrome-films-in-c41/)

[Tin Can]

Like!

Very good explanation!

[bob carnie]

I developed some c41 at room temp. specifically expired E3 and E4 ektachrome. but also some random recent c41 films I added to the run. Try 65-70 degrees, I bet you can go lower but would then consider extending development time further. sounds like you already have lots of additional variables to play with! good luck!, have fun.

Everything except those orange tulips was tank developed in c41 unicolor chemistry warm or at room temp in a garage in spring/winter.
https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=67473358%40N06&view_all=1&text=c41
process info: Developing E3 E4 Ektachrome slide films in C41: (https://lifeofstawa.wordpress.com/hidden/resources/developing-e3-e4-ektachrome-films-in-c41/)

Thanks I am going to give it a go at the lower temp, I am indeed using outdated Transparency Film and outdated Colour Negative Film. in one case I need to push process 3 stops colour neg in E6 chemistry and in the other case I am giving a flash of light mid development. My jobo system is not relevant to this situation since the time lag between flash and back to developer needs to be seconds, therefore I am using the Kodak Stainless Steel tank and hangers for both 4 x 5 and 8 x 10. I can process 8 sheets of 4 x 5 at a time and with my assistant taking over the secondary steps I am able to rock through a lot of solarizations in a day. Once finished I scan each film and then do my separations for tri colour gum over palladium. The last time I did the colour solarization it was at 100 degree and really a huge PIA.

[bob carnie]

perhaps (repeating what someone else suggested) -- cinestill (https://cinestillfilm.com/pages/about-cinestill-film) may be an option.

also off IG: https://www.instagram.com/cinestillfilm/


https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0339/5113/files/CS41_Liquid_Insrructions.pdf?v=1591402967

220708

or even: https://cinestillfilm.com/collections/tcs-temp/products/cs6-creative-slide-3-bath-process-for-color-timing-chrome-reversal-and-e-6-compatible-film
"CineStill is proud to introduce the Cs6 “Creative Slide” 3-Bath Process for color-timing E-6 reversal film, creating three new distinct slide film results - the true wonder of slide film unlocked. This process illuminates unique color profiles never before seen on slide film, effectively turning the tried and true standard into 3 totally different films. The Cs6 "Creative Slide" 3-Bath Process makes complicated chemistry simplified alchemy! The number of processing baths for E-6 film is reduced from 6 to 3. The reversal step occurs during color development in a Color&Reversal bath, and the bleach and conditioner steps are combined with the fixing step in a Bleaches&Fixer bath. Color-timing is performed with alternative 1st Developers to achieve full creative control of your slides."

Thanks I will look into this as an option, my supplier has tons of E6 and C41 tetonal and Unicolour , I am hoping to work with the cheaper version as I have over 500 films to work with over the span of this project.

[Drew Wiley]

Good luck with predictability and reliability. Sounds like that is not the priority with "Creative Slide" processing. That term "Creative" spooks me. It tends to be a synonym for "Goofy".

[Joshua Dunn]

Bob,

I think there is a different issue to developing at room temperature. Obviously your developing time will have to be extended, there would have to be some testing to figure that out, however I think there is an assumption that developing longer at a lower temperature gives you a similar result to a higher temperature at shorter development time. This is not the case. One hour labs back in the day would double the temperature of C-41 to process it faster and that would significantly decrease saturation and make a noticeable change to the look of the dye clouds in the negative. I'm sure you understand this as you stated you use a Jobo. However it may be that a lower temperature will never result in fully saturated color as the temperature may not be high enough to achieve it.

Now I get it, you are not looking for technically perfect results, you are cross processing and looking for unique results. However I think you would still want to get the most out of the medium and I am concerned that a lower temperature would negatively impact that. You will also want repeatable results and I can't imagine room temperature with color chemistry will achieve that. So here is what I would suggest. I would simply create a large water bath (i.e. a big plastic tub you can place your dip and dunk tanks in) with one or more sous vide heaters like this one (https://www.amazon.com/Inkbird-Stainless-Immersion-Circulator-Temperature/dp/B07RNWJZNR/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Sous%2BVide%2BImmersion%2BCirculator%2BCooker&qid=1635685736&s=home-garden&smid=AD7TOVQ7GNHS5&sr=1-3&th=1). Please understand I have never used this particular model, I just did a quick search on Amazon for sous vide cooker. That would get you at least very close to the temperature you normally process at and give you repeatable results.

Good luck with it. Please share your results!

-Joshua

[bob carnie]

Hi Joshua

You have a good handle on this.. I actually did use the water bath method , I was using water from the mains so it was a Real PIA . This idea of yours will probably work and I need to consider a device that could be put in a big tub to heat the stainless steel tanks. I have both tubs and stainless I just need a device that will get the water up to temp and more importantly keep it there with out constant hassel , I am sure there are self regulating devices that I am not aware of.

What I will say about my work , it is really hybrid and my subject matters though very plain take on an interesting vibe once I solarize them to light whether its BW or silver. In colour I do not get the maki line effect but what I so get is a range of colours that are quite out of the natural palette and pleasing to me. I must also say I go into LAB and twist the colours even more to create what I think are impossible renditions in the colour.
Once I have a high resolution file that I love I will do cmy colour conversions and negs and make a BW inverted conversion of the image so that I then print with gum pigments over palladium, finally I may do double hits on certain colours
I am not afraid to work with the colour pigments with a wet brush on the final print to achieve my end results.
220875220876 so as you can see with these two samples the colours are quite vibrant, (these are images from the final prints) I use a lot of different coloured backgrounds
behind my subjects and I light with simple hot lights (whatever is available) and for my smaller subjects I have a portable light tent where I place the images in and light from the sides with just the lens of the camera sticking in. I can not
tell you on these two samples which one is 4 x 5 C41 film and which one is 4x5 E6 film.

[Wayne]

There was a human on Filmwasters a few years ago who...well, here, https://filmwasters.com/forum/index.php?topic=8224.0

[tuco]

While not the lowest temperature, the Tetenal Colortec C-41 kit gives development times for 30°C/86°F that is somewhat an easier temperature to maintain. I have developed at that temperature with success.

[Duolab123]

I have fiddled around with E1 kits. Originally these were 68°F, the 75°F. I processed modern Provia, the color was quite good but speed dropped to about ISO of 10. I used an LED flashlight for reverse exposure (couldn't find a photoflood:-)
Sounds like you have it worked out. Solarization is fun, never the same.

[Joshua Dunn]

Bob,

Very interesting work!

If you start with really warm/hot water I would imagine that two of the sous vide heaters would be able to maintain a really warm water bath. They are not too expensive so having to buy more than one shouldn't be too painful.

-Joshua

[bob carnie]

Yes I got a PM here and the suggestion of these sous heaters came up and I am indeed going to give that a go.

[koraks]

my life would be a lot easier if I could run at room temp for both E6 and C41.

You'll be fine; can't vouch for E6, but C41 works OK at room temperature - provided you're not interested about color accuracy, but you explicitly stated you aren't, so that's fine. The drawback is processing time; as I recall, C41 development is something like 20-25 minutes (development only!) at room temperature. Especially if you work with hangers, sitting around in the dark for half an hour every time you want to run some film through a bath would get pretty old pretty quickly. So I'd suggest finding a way to raise the temperature a bit; perhaps not all the way up to 37.8C/100F, but something between that and room temperature would be nice. It would cut down development time to something like 10-12 minutes - much more acceptable, I'd say.

Strictly speaking C41 is of course not panthermic as Bernice pointed out, but that's only a concern if you want to color inside the lines. Since you don't, don't worry about it.

[bob carnie]

You'll be fine; can't vouch for E6, but C41 works OK at room temperature - provided you're not interested about color accuracy, but you explicitly stated you aren't, so that's fine. The drawback is processing time; as I recall, C41 development is something like 20-25 minutes (development only!) at room temperature. Especially if you work with hangers, sitting around in the dark for half an hour every time you want to run some film through a bath would get pretty old pretty quickly. So I'd suggest finding a way to raise the temperature a bit; perhaps not all the way up to 37.8C/100F, but something between that and room temperature would be nice. It would cut down development time to something like 10-12 minutes - much more acceptable, I'd say.

Strictly speaking C41 is of course not panthermic as Bernice pointed out, but that's only a concern if you want to color inside the lines. Since you don't, don't worry about it.

Thanks so much Koraks - I will indeed see if I can get the water bath constant around one of those large Stainless steel tanks, I can do 8 - 4 x5 at a time, I think the secondary steps are not so critical on temp.

[koraks]

Indeed, bleach and fix aren't time critical; they just need to go to completion. If you use a stop bath (perhaps with an additional rinse for good measure), bleach and fix could also be done in room light. So you wouldn't be stuck nursing a tray in the dark during those steps; reduces the hassle considerable I think.

[bob carnie]

Indeed, bleach and fix aren't time critical; they just need to go to completion. If you use a stop bath (perhaps with an additional rinse for good measure), bleach and fix could also be done in room light. So you wouldn't be stuck nursing a tray in the dark during those steps; reduces the hassle considerable I think.

That is my thoughts as well.

[wclark5179]

I’ve sometimes wondered if the temps that are used for developing with C-41 were originally recommended because that’s what labs used to get things done quickly during the heyday of film.

[bob carnie]

I’ve sometimes wondered if the temps that are used for developing with C-41 were originally recommended because that’s what labs used to get things done quickly during the heyday of film.

Well I worked at a bunch of film labs and we were totally hooked into Kodak , Fuji quality control so everything we did was at temp.

[wclark5179]

Interesting article:

https://emulsive.org/articles/darkroom/developing-color-negative-film-at-room-temperature-the-best-option-that-nobody-uses

Thanks Bob for your thoughts.

Now I only use C-41 to process Ilford XP Plus film.

[bob carnie]

I love the quality of that combination the negatives are really nice.