Inexpensive 4x5 field cameras

[Ben]

I've looked at Wista 45, Toyo 45 and the Intrepid 3d-printed black edition. Both Wista and Toyo seem to retail used for about $300 used in good condition. The Intrepid 3d-printed black edition is over $400 new.

- What is your preference of the three models?

- Are there any 4x5 field cameras that sell for even less than these?

[Greg Y]

Ben, In my opinion, if you're getting into LF, you're better off not looking for the cheapest, but look for a solid 'average' camera. Wista, & Toyo, as well as older model Linhofs,... or wood fields like Tachihara, Zone VI, are all good bets. You might find a cheaper one.....& then find out that it needs repairs or new bellows....& any savings are lost. You may find something cheaper in monorail cameras like the Calumet, or even the minimalist Calumet Cadet.

[Lachlan 717]

What’s your intended use? This is important.

[Mark Sampson]

The price of the camera alone is not the whole story. You must also factor in the cost of a used lens (less than they used to be), tripod, film holders, focusing cloth, light meter, etc.
But both the Wista and Toyo are fine cameras with long track records... i'm not familiar with the Intrepid.

[r.e.]

If you do an Advanced Search on this forum for "Intrepid camera", title only, you'll discover that there's been a fair amount of discussion about them. Also, a few have come up for sale used.

The same applies to the Wista and Toyo, except that there will be more threads about them.

There are also quite a few videos about Intrepid cameras on YouTube, and the company has a channel of its own.

[Bernice Loui]

$ of camera should not be the only deciding factor.

What are the image goals, lenses required to achieve these image goals then the camera required to support this.

Seems there was a previous post about wide angle lens choice of Nikkor -vs- Fujinon 90mm lenses. If this is one of the lens focal lengths to be used (90mm)
most light weight field folders should be ok with this focal length_with limited camera movements. This will limit the ability to fully utilize the image circle capability of these 90mm wide angle lenses. On balance, if the image goals do not require full image capability of these lenses, virtually any field folder should be ok. Decide on ALL possible lens focal lengths before even the starting the venture of camera choice. If a longer than normal focal length lens is needed, say 300mm this could be a serious limitation for a field folder (many recent LFF discussion about this problem with light weight field folders). If significant camera movements are required, this would be another very serious limitation for a field folder.

It is crucial to know what the image goals are, then what lenses are required before venturing into any camera choice. IMO, stay way from the current fashion of low buck start up view cameras. While their entry $ appears to be low, long term these might not be a wise choice.. They do and can offer a some-what low cost entry to the doing view camera. It is wiser in the long run to get a GOOD (not cosmetic, functional) view camera from one of the long time view camera brands like Toyo, Sinar, Horseman, Arca Swiss and similar. Know it is very difficult to assess the quality and capability of any view camera for one beginning the LF view camera journey as the knowledge, skills, demands have not yet been properly or fully developed to fully exploit what any view camera/lens and all related is capable of. Those that have been at this view camera stuff for decades and have pushed any view camera/lens and all related to their absolute limits will have a different set of needs, expectations and demands from any view camera system.


Bernice




I've looked at Wista 45, Toyo 45 and the Intrepid 3d-printed black edition. Both Wista and Toyo seem to retail used for about $300 used in good condition. The Intrepid 3d-printed black edition is over $400 new.

- What is your preference of the three models?

- Are there any 4x5 field cameras that sell for even less than these?

[_tf_]

When I decided to give 4x5 a go a couple of years back, even though my primary interest is in landscape, I got a monorail camera. I wanted a camera that would allow me to fully explore the movements (I had had lot of fun with a 6x9 field camera by then, so had some idea about the limitations of that design). Monorail isn't very practical choice for carrying about, but I am glad I went down that route initially because it really opened my eyes to the possibilities. This summer I got the wooden Interpid as a second camera because of it's weight and because it takes standard Technika lensboards (as I think all the cameras on your list do).

I am happy enough with it, it's fine for most of the things I do. It doesn't have any scales, so e.g., it's difficult to reproduce existing setups, and I have to take care with properly locking the front swing, the screw has to be really tight. But it is light, packs well, and the ground glass is bright enough, and there are some nice touches, like the little spirit levels. The movements with a 90mm lens are very limited by the bellows (I expect you might get some small variation between different folders depending on the quality of the bellows, but movements at wide angle need bag bellows really). But most of the time the Interpid is more than enough for what I indented to do, and when I have a specific image in mind that I know will need more movements, I take the monorail (or sometimes make a note to come back to the same place with the monorail :) ). The thing is you can have any number of cameras that take the same lensboards, and you can upgrade your camera at will later, the initial investment in 4x5 is primarily the lenses, and film holders, and depending on the size of the camera a tripod upgrade (the intrepid is light enough to work with standard tripod designed for a DSLR).

[Bob Salomon]

When I decided to give 4x5 a go a couple of years back, even though my primary interest is in landscape, I got a monorail camera. I wanted a camera that would allow me to fully explore the movements (I had had lot of fun with a 6x9 field camera by then, so had some idea about the limitations of that design). Monorail isn't very practical choice for carrying about, but I am glad I went down that route initially because it really opened my eyes to the possibilities. This summer I got the wooden Interpid as a second camera because of it's weight and because it takes standard Technika lensboards (as I think all the cameras on your list do).

I am happy enough with it, it's fine for most of the things I do. It doesn't have any scales, so e.g., it's difficult to reproduce existing setups, and I have to take care with properly locking the front swing, the screw has to be really tight. But it is light, packs well, and the ground glass is bright enough, and there are some nice touches, like the little spirit levels. The movements with a 90mm lens are very limited by the bellows (I expect you might get some small variation between different folders depending on the quality of the bellows, but movements at wide angle need bag bellows really). But most of the time the Interpid is more than enough for what I indented to do, and when I have a specific image in mind that I know will need more movements, I take the monorail (or sometimes make a note to come back to the same place with the monorail :) ). The thing is you can have any number of cameras that take the same lensboards, and you can upgrade your camera at will later, the initial investment in 4x5 is primarily the lenses, and film holders, and depending on the size of the camera a tripod upgrade (the intrepid is light enough to work with standard tripod designed for a DSLR).

Or, get a folding monorail like the Technikardan.
But it’s not inexpensive.

[Tin Can]

Every camera is specialized. even the cheapest

Almost every user changes camera/lens/etc as they figure the game out

Buy, learn, sell, repeat

[abruzzi]

For a folding field/technical camera, I'm guessing that the $300 you're seeing is about as cheap as you're going to get, unless you look for a monorail. Monorails seem to be less popular at the moment, I'm assuming becuase of portability, but they can easily be had for $200 or less, just the other day (now gone) KEH had a Sinar F monorail for $200. They now have an Sinar F+ for $250. I'd seriously consider a "field oriented" monorail, if you can find one that you can easily transport. I went through several 4x5 cameras until I settled on the perfect camera for me--a Linhof Technikardan. I doubt manyother 4x5 field monorails fold up as compactly as the TK, but there are certain nice things about monorails, the big one being that they mostly have more movements than you'll ever need, but there are other benefits as well (like not getting the bed in the shot when using an ultrawide lens.)

In addition, as mentioned, you will have a number of other expenses that you'll have in order to get functional, but I can certainly understand economizing. I haven't used any of the cameras you've listed, so I can't comment on details, but I'd probably lean towards the Wista or Toyo. But if I was limited to that price, I'd probably be more interested in condition, since you're scraping the very bottom of the barrel, and you don't want to "save money" only to have to spend it and more getting the camera to a usable state. Thats one benefit of the Intrepid--its new and comes with a warranty.

[Havoc]

It's the film that gets you in the end. When the cost of film approaches more than 1 (insert currency), up to 6-7 before development, then it doesn't take long to spend the price of several cameras.

[Bernice Loui]

Color 4x5 sheet film typically cost $4-6 each sheet or about $55 per 10 sheet box, B&W film about half that cost.
Add film processing cost, add print making cost, add print mounting-framing cost.

Gonna take several boxes of film to begin learning how to view camera. This film cost alone can and easily exceed the cost of a "low cost" camera.
If the low cost "gear" produces-causes problems in the learning curve process, add LOTs more cost to gain up on the learning curve.

As for camera.. consider this current discussion:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165712-Fuji-90mm-f8-SW-or-Nikon-90mm-f8-SW&p=1618277#post1618277

Bottom line, view camera images are never "low cost" regardless of camera and related gear.


Bernice




It's the film that gets you in the end. When the cost of film approaches more than 1 (insert currency), up to 6-7 before development, then it doesn't take long to spend the price of several cameras.

[Tin Can]

I really like Sinar bellows which come off quickly and if damaged easily/cheaply replaced in a moment

Few field cameras have that feature

[r.e.]

Re the Intrepid 4x5, I think that Nejc (pronounced Nates) Urankar's video is informative. He's a fine arts student in Slovenia who has also started a business that makes and sells dry plates and dry plate holders:


Intrepid 4x5 After 2 Years of Use | The Good and the Bad


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRAsmtovAlM

[Bob Salomon]

I really like Sinar bellows which come off quickly and if damaged easily/cheaply replaced in a moment

Few field cameras have that feature

LInhof TK, all metal and some wood Wista all have interchangeable bellows. All go on and off quickly and easily.

[Drew Wiley]

Gosh, Bob, some bellows are a helluva lot easier to acquire or afford than others at this point in history. The sheer ubiquity of Sinar as the dominant studio brand for several decades makes them the easiest to acquire at decent pricing. I know you root for a different team, and a very good one, which is fine; but there are practical issues involved too. A person could probably buy several very nice Sinar monorail cameras these days for the price of a TK. And Sinar had a huuuuuge system all along - all kinds of interchangeable goodies. But Techni-Kardan is a very exclusive niche, with spare components relatively rare.

[Bob Salomon]

Gosh, Bob, some bellows are a helluva lot easier to acquire or afford than others at this point in history. The sheer ubiquity of Sinar as the dominant studio brand for several decades makes them the easiest to acquire at decent pricing. I know you root for a different team, and a very good one, which is fine; but there are practical issues involved too. A person could probably buy several very nice Sinar monorail cameras these days for the price of a TK. And Sinar had a huuuuuge system all along - all kinds of interchangeable goodies. But Techni-Kardan is a very exclusive niche, with spare components relatively rare.

One reason accessories for a TK are relatively rare is because so many features were built in that they weren’t necessary.
As for bellows prices. It seems that that bellows maker in the UK makes them inexpensively.

All that is left as add ons is a compendium, various focus aids (reflex, focus/meter bellows, fresnel), roll film backs and a w/a bellows.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, again Sinar made it really easy to turn a spare or even worn out standard bellows into an excellent compendium shade using a rod and couple of clips. All kind of Sinar accessories might have been obscenely overpriced back in the day, but certainly aren't anymore. One can easily afford entire spare camera just to cannibalize them of components if necessary. .... But that TK is a beauty; only, my current camera girlfriend is called "Norma" - she's real pretty too.

[Tin Can]

Nobody wanted Horseman Rail cameras a few years ago

I bought low and cannibalized some so I could make adapters

Just saw a lot of good in Japan for Made in Japan cameras

Yashica TLR A are opening up

[Greg Y]

Every camera is specialized. even the cheapest

Almost every user changes camera/lens/etc as they figure the game out

Buy, learn, sell, repeat

Maybe. With new(er) LF users there seems to be a carryover from small cameras especially digital... the buy/upgrade cycle... that involves shopping & changing gear. You can very easily buy a view camera.....& just use it. As an example the Toyo 45A is a professional model & although i've never owned one, a colleague has used the same one for 25+ years professionally. I used a '38 Deardorff 5x7 for at least a decade. A single box of 50 sheets of Kodak TX costs $150. Why scrimp on the camera...they are a bargain. Just buy a used pro model view camera. Jay Dusard still uses his Kodak 8x10 Masterview. Bernice Loui makes some really great points related to LF photography in general.....
If you're on the North American continent... or further...... any problems with your Intrepid (cheap) or Gibellini (expensive) will kill you in shipping & time.
Another upside of not buying the cheapest is that you might luck into a local sale and get more than you expected. Or you might buy a camera that appreciates....like an Ebony, (if you had bought it 10+ yrs ago) or an R.H. Phillips. Or you might stumble on a multi format camera like the Deardorff or Canham or Chamonix that will take both 5x7 and 4x5 backs. In many cases of looking for the cheapest, the old saw "pennywise, pound foolish" may apply.

[Bernice Loui]

Like this Norma Drew..
220425


Bernice



Well, again Sinar made it really easy to turn a spare or even worn out standard bellows into an excellent compendium shade using a rod and couple of clips. All kind of Sinar accessories might have been obscenely overpriced back in the day, but certainly aren't anymore. One can easily afford entire spare camera just to cannibalize them of components if necessary. .... But that TK is a beauty; only, my current camera girlfriend is called "Norma" - she's real pretty too.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes, mine is black/deep green too. What a sweetie! But I routinely keep it equipped with an 18 inch rail, generally favoring long lenses. Plus I keep a compendium mounted on it ready to go. It's a fast system to work with. But I don't have a Sinar shutter (yet). It's been a long time since I've used my Sinar F2, and the P components never go outdoors. I like Miss Norma better.

[_tf_]

Re the Intrepid 4x5, I think that Nejc (pronounced Nates) Urankar's video is informative. He's a fine arts student in Slovenia who has also started a business that makes and sells dry plates and dry plate holders:


The mk iv is quite a bit improved, the focusing is done via a threaded rod, so doesn’t suffer from the issue he mentions, and also the controls for front rise and tilt are different shapes, so easy to tell apart by touch. There is no rare swing anymore.

[paulbarden]

The mk iv is quite a bit improved, the focusing is done via a threaded rod, so doesn’t suffer from the issue he mentions, and also the controls for front rise and tilt are different shapes, so easy to tell apart by touch. There is no rare swing anymore.

There's nothing wrong with the Intrepid 4x5, if budget is the issue. I won an early version of the 4x5 camera in a competition in 2018 and I have used and continue to use it as my sole 4x5 camera, and it works well. The newest iteration clearly has a lot of welcome improvements (as does the current 5x7, which I also own and like a lot), so I think you'd d0 well if you choose an Intrepid. Its very light weight makes it an easy camera to backpack with. Leaves plenty of room for lenses and film holders.

[r.e.]

Three days before this thread, @Ben started a thread about choosing a 90mm lens, presumably for use with this camera. That raises the issue of ease of using the camera with a 90mm lens, and implications for bellows. My own comments on the issue are in the following post in his thread on choosing between Fujinon and Nikkor 90mm lenses: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?165712-Fuji-90mm-f8-SW-or-Nikon-90mm-f8-SW&p=1618424&viewfull=1#post1618424

[_tf_]

FWIW this is Intrepid IV with 90mm just yesterday (S-K Super Angulon f8), front tilt swing and drop. It’s limited compared to a monorail, but fine for much of my landscape scenes.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51595534148_c54c49c790_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mBjAJY)Riverside (https://flic.kr/p/2mBjAJY) by tthef (https://www.flickr.com/photos/_tf_/), on Flickr

The great thing about a camera of the Intrepid’s weight is it can be adequately supported by a lighter tripod — stability is given not by camera weight but by the rigidity of the tripod relative to the weight you put on the top of it, if the tripod is rigid enough for the load it doesn’t matter that it’s light, you simply weight it down _from below_ when required with a bag of lenses or stones.

It’s not the only 4x5 I’d like to have, but it’s one I can wander around with for hours without doing my back in, it’s happy enough on tripod and head with a combined weight of 1.7kg. :)

[Bob Salomon]

FWIW this is Intrepid IV with 90mm just yesterday (S-K Super Angulon f8), front tilt swing and drop. It’s limited compared to a monorail, but fine for much of my landscape scenes.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51595534148_c54c49c790_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mBjAJY)Riverside (https://flic.kr/p/2mBjAJY) by tthef (https://www.flickr.com/photos/_tf_/), on Flickr

The great thing about a camera of the Intrepid’s weight is it can be adequately supported by a lighter tripod — stability is given not by camera weight but by the rigidity of the tripod relative to the weight you put on the top of it, if the tripod is rigid enough for the load it doesn’t matter that it’s light, you simply weight it down _from below_ when required with a bag of lenses or stones.

It’s not the only 4x5 I’d like to have, but it’s one I can wander around with for hours without doing my back in, it’s happy enough on tripod and head with a combined weight of 1.7kg. :)

Nice shot! But no center filter?

[r.e.]

FWIW this is Intrepid IV with 90mm just yesterday (S-K Super Angulon f8), front tilt swing and drop. It’s limited compared to a monorail, but fine for much of my landscape scenes.

Hi _tf_,

Great, a couple of questions. I've attached a screen capture of the Intrepid 4x5 Mark IV specs that show how much movement the camera allows. As I understand it, a bag bellows isn't available. How much of the camera's movement can be used with a 90mm lens? Are you using a recessed lens board?

Thanks


220452

[Havoc]

Nice location and execution, but I really don't understand the obsession with the idea of having to use a long shutter time when photographing water so it doesn't look at all like water flowing.

[r.e.]

Nice location and execution, but I really don't understand the obsession with the idea of having to use a long shutter time when photographing water so it doesn't look at all like water flowing.


For my part, I'd like to thank _tf_ for taking the time to respond to my post #25 immediately before his. I effectively asked how well the Intrepid camera and bellows handles a 90mm lens, as discussed in more detail in the link in my post. In his response, _tf_ offered a real life example and comments related to my question. I want to express my appreciation. It's not clear what your personal taste in photographs, and attendant criticism, has to do with the exchange, or indeed with this thread.

[alan_b]

Nice location and execution, but I really don't understand the obsession with the idea of having to use a long shutter time when photographing water so it doesn't look at all like water flowing.
Yeah! And what's with this black & white nonsense that doesn't look at all like real life?! Sheesh - get it together people!

Back on topic...

I've looked at Wista 45, Toyo 45 and the Intrepid 3d-printed black edition. Both Wista and Toyo seem to retail used for about $300 used in good condition. The Intrepid 3d-printed black edition is over $400 new.

- What is your preference of the three models?

- Are there any 4x5 field cameras that sell for even less than these?
I've had a Toyo 45A for 25 years or so. I like it, it's simple. Limited movements are fine for (my) landscape work and across-the-street building documentary shots. Not the lightest, but pretty indestructible when folded. Bellows can be an issue, they wear out after a while and aren't interchangeable. I use lenses from 65mm (recessed board) to 210mm.

[_tf_]

Nice shot! But no center filter?

No, they are far too expensive for my kind of amateur photography, not least because I rarely resort to a wide angle lens, tending toward 180 most of the time. Also, they seem impossible to find for the older lenses, so that keeps the temptation a bay. (The silver lining, I'd be burning in edges on a print, so one less thing to do in the darkroom!)


Nice location and execution, but I really don't understand the obsession with the idea of having to use a long shutter time when photographing water so it doesn't look at all like water flowing.

Agreed, one of the great landscape cliches. I am trying to get my head (in a practical way, I know there are tables) around depth of focus when movements are involved, so took two shots here one at f32 and one at f45, this is the latter, the 4s exposure comes from that, and as far as the water is concerned does not work me either. The second sheet is yet to be developed. (This really should be a colour image, the colours were sublime, but I didn't bring any colour film, and probably won't get another day like this this year before the leaves come off.)


Great, a couple of questions. I've attached a screen capture of the Intrepid 4x5 Mark IV specs that show how much movement the camera allows. As I understand it, a bag bellows isn't available. How much of the camera's movement can be used with a 90mm lens? Are you using a recessed lens board?


The S-K SuperAngulon 90/f8 doesn't need a recessed board, mine is mounted in a standard, offset, Technika board (I am waiting for a recessed board for a 75mm lens, to see if it could be used with it at all). I will get back to you on the exact movements at infinity when I get a chance to get out with it next. The shot above I wasn't able to use the full range of the front drop, there was at least 10mm 'left' and if the lens was in a centered board, it would not have been enough (the camera was horizontal, for this kind of shot I could have, of course, angled it). The bellows material on the Intrepid is quite thick and as the video above said, waterproof. This I makes the movements more limited than e.g., on my Technika 23, but all in all, I prefer this kind of bellows material for this type of the camera, it am really not worried about it getting wet and dirty, etc. FWIW, bag bellows could be easily made at home, but the Intrepid wasn't designed for frequent bellows changes, so the screws for that are tiny, you would probably want to redesign that, maybe put in inserts for something like M3 screws that could be worked by hand -- for someone who wanted to tinker a bit with a camera without designing one from a scratch, this is a good platform, I think.

This is an example of recent shot that was not able to accomplish with the Intrepid, came back with Kardan GT,

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51445319772_6ab3703136_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mo3HeW)Pine Roots (https://flic.kr/p/2mo3HeW) by tthef (https://www.flickr.com/photos/_tf_/), on Flickr

The best I could with the Intrepid there was this:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51420723189_c49f7df047_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mkSDwV)Pines II (https://flic.kr/p/2mkSDwV) by tthef (https://www.flickr.com/photos/_tf_/), on Flickr

[Bernice Loui]

These example images using a 90mm lens on the "low cost" Intrepid lightweight field folder are typical of images made using a lightweight field folder. This is also why lightweight field folders have limited camera movements, not easily interchanged bellows (bag and no limit on bellows added), limited camera extension and such as limiting the camera ability allows making the camera lightweight, low cost and related. One example of why and how image goals drive camera choice.

Folks first venturing into this view camera stuff will not be all that demanding on camera ability or lens as the view camera skills have not yet been developed enough to place extreme demands on camera, lens and all related.. Some will continue up the view camera image making curve which can greatly increase demands and expectations on camera, lens and all relate ability. Know this only happens if the view camera image maker persist on using a view camera for a great variety of images far beyond outdoor back packing "AA_Group f64" style images..

Previously posted, example of interior images that would place demands on any lightweight field folder's ability as these images made using a 5x7 Sinar Norma using a 72mm f5.6 Super Angulon XL demand front and rear camera standards combined with a bag bellows to extract all possible performance ability of the 72mm SAXL to create these images. This also places specific demands and skills from the image maker to achieve images like this.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?161306-What-focal-length-taking-aperture-used

Fact is, if one were to create outdoor images that do not need extended camera capabilities and limited lens choices, the light weight field folder could be the ideal choice in every way. Once greater demands are forced upon the camera, that light weight field folder often cannot meet the demands and needs of what is required to achieve the image goals.

~The view camera remains to this day as one of the most capable photographic instruments to this regardless of it's innate, inherent superficial simplicity.~


Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

For WA work exclusively, or up to "normal" focal lengths, non-folding wooden field cameras can be even lighter, and faster to operate, and more rigid. Ebony and Chamonix made some nice ones; but it's a much easier design to replicate than a classic folder. Not of much interest to me personally, however, since I gravitate more toward longer focal lengths.

[Dugan]

Ben,
If price is your number 1 consideration, get a Burke & James 4x5 Press Camera.
Take all the rangefinder doodads off.
It's self-casing, small, the ground glass is protected by a folding hood, it has a revolving back, it takes standard 4x4" lens boards, it has front standard tilt & shift.
A 135mm (or 90mm in a recessed board) Wollensak lens in a CLA'd Alphax or Rapax shutter will get the job done, and fit inside the camera when closed up.

[Bernice Loui]

Not that "low cost".. IMO, the days of bargain view camera and lenses and related have passed.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/15230/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=burke+%26+james+press+camera&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2

If a beater B&J 4x5 press camera cost $200. What is the cost to fix up? New bellows, lens shutter likely needs work, camera needs clean-lube and such.
Once the beater camera/lens is made usable, what is this cost compared to a know GOOD camera, lens and all related to have a fully functional view camera that does not cause frustration and produce more resources and monetary cost waste. Short term bargain, longer term might not be such a bargain. And it is a press camera which adds to the limitations of what this camera is capable of. Know 4x5 press cameras as a group are designed to be used hand held with "zone focus 130_ish mm focal length lens"..


Bernice



Ben,
If price is your number 1 consideration, get a Burke & James 4x5 Press Camera.
Take all the rangefinder doodads off.
It's self-casing, small, the ground glass is protected by a folding hood, it has a revolving back, it takes standard 4x4" lens boards, it has front standard tilt & shift.
A 135mm (or 90mm in a recessed board) Wollensak lens in a CLA'd Alphax or Rapax shutter will get the job done, and fit inside the camera when closed up.

[Dugan]

Oops, my bad.
I guess the days of a $75 - $100 usable B&J 4x5 Press body have gone the way of $3/gal. gasoline.

[_tf_]

Fact is, if one were to create outdoor images that do not need extended camera capabilities and limited lens choices, the light weight field folder could be the ideal choice in every way. Once greater demands are forced upon the camera, that light weight field folder often cannot meet the demands and needs of what is required to achieve the image goals.


I don’t think anybody is disputing this. But the light weight folder also expands where 4x5 figures on the ‘largest camera I can carry’ scale, for me the Intrepid offers a viable alternative to my GS-1 or even ETRSi, and its movements range is infinitely greater than either. :)

(I also think some credit is due to companies like Intrepid for opening a way into this type of photography that reduces the amount of money one has to spend on equipment manufactured before one (or even one’s parents) was born, that there are no spare parts for and the people trained to service it are few and far apart. This creates a glimmer of hope that maybe down the road out the current generation of ‘folks first venturing into this view camera stuff’ might emerge some to again start making the bits without which this view camera stuff can’t happen and which are increasingly difficult to get at even moderately affordable prices. I am no youngster but most of my view camera equipment is older than me, and the younger me could have afforded none of it.)

[Havoc]

I also think some credit is due to companies like Intrepid for opening a way into this type of photography that reduces the amount of money one has to spend on equipment manufactured before one (or even one’s parents) was born, that there are no spare parts for and the people trained to service it are few and far apart. This creates a glimmer of hope that maybe down the road out the current generation of ‘folks first venturing into this view camera stuff’ might emerge some to again start making the bits without which this view camera stuff can’t happen and which are increasingly difficult to get at even moderately affordable prices. I am no youngster but most of my view camera equipment is older than me, and the younger me could have afforded none of it.

I agree with you. But while cameras are relatively simple, shutters are likely going to an issue. They wear out and making new ones isn't as easy as making a new camera.

[r.e.]

Previously posted, example of interior images that would place demands on any lightweight field folder's ability as these images made using a 5x7 Sinar Norma using a 72mm f5.6 Super Angulon XL demand front and rear camera standards combined with a bag bellows to extract all possible performance ability of the 72mm SAXL to create these images. This also places specific demands and skills from the image maker to achieve images like this.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?161306-What-focal-length-taking-aperture-used



That's a very interesting thread.

[paulbarden]

Lets allow the guy to learn to walk before asking him to fly, huh?

[Kinografx]

[QUOTE=Bernice Loui;1618619]Not that "low cost".. IMO, the days of bargain view camera and lenses and related have passed.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/15230/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=burke+%26+james+press+camera&LH_TitleDesc=0&rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=2

To be fair, that $500 B&J Press is not a camera for sale on eBay, it's a camera on perpetual display on eBay :) (like a LOT of photo gear on the 'Bay these days)
I have a BJP (well, 2, maybe I should sell one) and really like it. Lightweight, closes with a lens on, and way more useful movements than a speed or crown graphic and easy to make 4x4 lens boards.

[Bernice Loui]

Majority of sheet film cameras offer some degree of camera movement, press cameras included. Some medium format cameras like the Fuji GX680 also offer some degree of camera movement (front only, limited). Again, it goes back to image goals. Images like this example a car at the cork screw of Laguna Seca are not gonna work much if at all using any view camera.
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Canon 500mm f4.5, Canon mirrorless digital.


Current "success_popularity of start ups like Intrepid" are due more to a marketing moment than cost alone. As previously mentioned, this view camera stuff has changed much since the film era before year 2000. See this Midwest Photo Ad from 1995. Note the resale value of lightweight field folders -vs- GOOD monorail cameras and all related items. The view camera market pre year 2000 was (again) studio made color transparency images using 4x5. Field folders were very affordable back then. In ways field folders have become less affordable due to the current Foto market fashion of view cameras.
220510

The assertion of low cost view cameras such as the Intrepid has made this view camera stuff available to many Foto folks today is not an assertion that can be proven or well supported by market realities and facts-truths of what is the current view camera and relate of today. Before Intrepid, there was the Bender view camera kit and similar DIY view cameras.

Positive note about the current Foto fashion of view camera, it does create a demand for sheet film. If not for this demand in what ever camera used, related print making process and such sheet film availability would have died. If the availability of sheet film dies off, that is where the real problems of producing any sheet film images begin.


Bernice




I don’t think anybody is disputing this. But the light weight folder also expands where 4x5 figures on the ‘largest camera I can carry’ scale, for me the Intrepid offers a viable alternative to my GS-1 or even ETRSi, and its movements range is infinitely greater than either. :)

(I also think some credit is due to companies like Intrepid for opening a way into this type of photography that reduces the amount of money one has to spend on equipment manufactured before one (or even one’s parents) was born, that there are no spare parts for and the people trained to service it are few and far apart. This creates a glimmer of hope that maybe down the road out the current generation of ‘folks first venturing into this view camera stuff’ might emerge some to again start making the bits without which this view camera stuff can’t happen and which are increasingly difficult to get at even moderately affordable prices. I am no youngster but most of my view camera equipment is older than me, and the younger me could have afforded none of it.)

[Bernice Loui]

As for lightweight field folders and Ansel Adams style landscapes... In his later years, Ansel used a Horseman L monorail LOTs... Why?

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Previously mentioned numerous times, Horseman L series monorail cameras were one of the most excellent monorail camera bargains for a long time. They can cost less than an Intrepid or similar current fashion view camera yet offer FAR more in what a view camera can be and do.



Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

The question is about lighter weight and portability. Ansel gave up on a backpack 40 years before my current age; and I'm still doing it. Lightweight folders have been around a long time too; but they weren't all that rigid, at least compared to certain current options. And ultralight monorails like the Gowland were inevitably prone to vibration. Everything is some kind of compromise. The nice thing about system monorails like Sinar is that you can reconfigure them for a wide variety of applications. I've seen images of AA with a Sinar too. But there are good reasons I own both an 8x10 and 4x5 folder as well as Sinar gear. Love em all, but do choose one over another logistically, as needed.

[Bob Salomon]

As for lightweight field folders and Ansel Adams style landscapes... In his later years, Ansel used a Horseman L monorail LOTs... Why?

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220512

Previously mentioned numerous times, Horseman L series monorail cameras were one of the most excellent monorail camera bargains for a long time. They can cost less than an Intrepid or similar current fashion view camera yet offer FAR more in what a view camera can be and do.



Bernice

Because they gave him one with the stipulation that he would be pictured with it.

[Drew Wiley]

Darn you, Bob - don't give away the box of tricks. People need their myths. Gosh knows how much gear I was given in hopes of an endorsement (non-photo gear - I've been given a lot of photo gear for free too, but not for sake of endorsements). That certainly doesn't mean I endorsed everything I was given, only things I thought deserved it. But AA was good at talking people out of things, and as I recalled, talked a manufacturer into giver a Protar lens to EW since he couldn't afford one himself. Brett W. also convinced Rollei to give him an SL66 outfit, but then shot mainly an RB67 instead.

[Michael R]

AA had Sinar stuff too. By the mid 1970s he probably had at least one of everything.

I’d recommend a Sinar to any beginner, as you suggested earlier. An F model or even the A I had (and should never have let go). Ok monorails aren’t the lightest, but they are easy to set up, and can do basically anything, which I think is good for a beginner because you can get some experience with something that has few limitations and decide what features you find you need or don’t need etc. The Sinars are simpler to operate than things like that Horseman. Those designs were better suited to complicated studio/tabletop use. My two cents.

I didn’t know that about Weston and the Rollei. I thought he used it a lot.


Darn you, Bob - don't give away the box of tricks. People need their myths. Gosh knows how much gear I was given in hopes of an endorsement (non-photo gear - I've been given a lot of photo gear for free too, but not for sake of endorsements). That certainly doesn't mean I endorsed everything I was given, only things I thought deserved it. But AA was good at talking people out of things, and as I recalled, talked a manufacturer into giver a Protar lens to EW since he couldn't afford one himself. Brett W. also convinced Rollei to give him an SL66 outfit, but then shot mainly an RB67 instead.

[Bob Salomon]

AA had Sinar stuff too. By the mid 1970s he probably had at least one of everything.

I’d recommend a Sinar to any beginner, as you suggested earlier. An F model or even the A I had (and should never have let go). Ok monorails aren’t the lightest, but they are easy to set up, and can do basically anything, which I think is good for a beginner because you can get some experience with something that has few limitations and decide what features you find you need or don’t need etc. My two cents.

Or a Technika IV, or newer. The camera, out of the box, with no accessories - other then lenses and boards, can use any lens from 72mm to many 360mm with full movements, front and back, folds for convemient carrying, all metal and not that heavy. Especially since you don’t need extras like w/a bellows, extra rails, etc to do the same thing.

[Michael R]

That’s true. Good point. I just figured used mid-range or entry level Sinar cameras in good condition (if there still are any) would be cheaper than Linhof but I could be wrong. For a time there was just so much Sinar stuff in circulation but things may have changed.


Or a Technika IV, or newer. The camera, out of the box, with no accessories - other then lenses and boards, can use any lens from 72mm to many 360mm with full movements, front and back, folds for convemient carrying, all metal and not that heavy. Especially since you don’t need extras like w/a bellows, extra rails, etc to do the same thing.

[Drew Wiley]

Later Technikas still seem to fetch high prices, though not generally as much as before. Older ones, it all depends. If one doesn't need a triple extension, and can work within a moderately wide to somewhat long-normal lens range, and get by with just double extension, then the Horseman FA is another real beauty of a technical camera. I went past a gallery the other day where the elderly coastal photographer has only shot an FA his whole career, and only with a roll-film back. It's a very well built compact camera, but too lens-restrictive for me.

[_tf_]

I agree with you. But while cameras are relatively simple, shutters are likely going to an issue. They wear out and making new ones isn't as easy as making a new camera.

That was my point. Sooner or later someone will need to start making shutters. They won't be fully mechanical, they are too complex to make and I suspect not economically viable at small volumes, and the expertise needed to design them is disappearing. But electronic shutters might be feasible enough (think the relative complexity of mechanical watch v. a quarts one), there will be suitable electronic parts for this off the shelf, and most of the rest could be 3D printed.

[_tf_]

The assertion of low cost view cameras such as the Intrepid has made this view camera stuff available to many Foto folks today is not an assertion that can be proven or well supported

It's also not an assertion I made.

[Greg Y]

There are lots of fine used lenses around, and shutters can always be serviced. I can't see a big surge in new shutters any time soon. The big question to me is about disposable supplies like film and paper. Prices continue to rise, and variety of product continues to shrink. At any given time, I've got more money tied up in film and enlarging & contact printing paper than the cost of any 4x5, certainly more than the price of an Intrepid.

[Bernice Loui]

Very difficult to wear out a modern shutter like Copal, Prontor Pro, Compur as they were designed and built to meet the needs of working photographers burning cases of sheet film daily (over 100 sheets of film daily was common back in those days). Think tens of thousands of shutter cycles. The most common problem with shutters, the get dirty, lubricants dry out causing the shutter to slow or stuck. This is why getting lens shutters serviced is SO important.


Bernice



That was my point. Sooner or later someone will need to start making shutters. They won't be fully mechanical, they are too complex to make and I suspect not economically viable at small volumes, and the expertise needed to design them is disappearing. But electronic shutters might be feasible enough (think the relative complexity of mechanical watch v. a quarts one), there will be suitable electronic parts for this off the shelf, and most of the rest could be 3D printed.

[Bernice Loui]

Once AA gained fame and notoriety, Horseman was not the only product Ansel Adams promoted. Hasselblad and other went along. This is a very common marketing practice that lives to this day.. As a marketing dude, ya gotta know this.

Going back to the days when Ansel Adams did not have this market-brand recognition, he also had a "girl friend" named Norma:
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Why?


Bernice




Because they gave him one with the stipulation that he would be pictured with it.

[paulbarden]

Very difficult to wear out a modern shutter like Copal, Prontor Pro, Compur as they were designed and built to meet the needs of working photographers burning cases of sheet film daily (over 100 sheets of film daily was common back in those days). Think tens of thousands of shutter cycles. The most common problem with shutters, the get dirty, lubricants dry out causing the shutter to slow or stuck. This is why getting lens shutters serviced is SO important.


Bernice

My specialty is Compur shutters - mostly on Kodak Retinas. I've serviced scores of pre-war Compur shutters, and unless someone has done something horrible to it, all I have ever needed to do was service it and it works like new. I own half a dozen Retina 117's and 118's, and every one of them is in excellent working order. These are 87 years old, I would like to point out - and the odds are they will be functional 87 years from now.

[Bernice Loui]

Precisely, have Ilex and Compur shutters that are decades old, long as they are clean and properly lubricated, they work, and work and work long as they are not abused and properly serviced and cared for.

Primary view camera shutter are three Sinar mechanicals, the are now decades old. One was used LOTs back in the working for $ days of view camera. That Sinar-Copal shutter ran many thousands of cycles, it works much the same today as it did back then. It has been clean-lubed-service twice all these decades. Just one of these shutters will out live me.


Bernice



My specialty is Compur shutters - mostly on Kodak Retinas. I've serviced scores of pre-war Compur shutters, and unless someone has done something horrible to it, all I have ever needed to do was service it and it works like new. I own half a dozen Retina 117's and 118's, and every one of them is in excellent working order. These are 87 years old, I would like to point out - and the odds are they will be functional 87 years from now.

[Bob Salomon]

Once AA gained fame and notoriety, Horseman was not the only product Ansel Adams promoted. Hasselblad and other went along. This is a very common marketing practice that lives to this day.. As a marketing dude, ya gotta know this.

Going back to the days when Ansel Adams did not have this market-brand recognition, he also had a "girl friend" named Norma:
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Why?


Bernice

Sorry, we never did that with Minox, Rollei, LInhof, Novoflex or any of our other product lines.

[_tf_]

My specialty is Compur shutters - mostly on Kodak Retinas. I've serviced scores of pre-war Compur shutters, and unless someone has done something horrible to it, all I have ever needed to do was service it and it works like new. I own half a dozen Retina 117's and 118's, and every one of them is in excellent working order. These are 87 years old, I would like to point out - and the odds are they will be functional 87 years from now.

You are viewing this from the point of view of someone who already has their working shutters. It's now pretty much impossible to buy a shutter, and certainly not one in a working order, if you need to replace a shutter, you need to buy a lens with a suitable working shutter. But lenses have become harder to get than even a couple of years ago, and also more expensive. Most of the shutters I have were not working properly without a CLA (lubricants age and friction elements wear out), and also none were probably ever serviced before. Yet, there are no longer that many people who can properly service them and the cost of sending a shutter for a CLA is greater than the value of the shutter itself, which means most of the existing shutters will not be properly serviced ever again, some will be damaged by attempts at self-service, and some just thrown out. Of those that will be left many will not return back into circulation once their current owners are gone. Sure, in 90 years time there will be some Compur shutters still in working order, but will there be enough to sustain anything like e.g., the current level of interest in LF?

My general point is that new companies manufacturing LF equipment again is a good thing, even if their initial offerings are limited and don't achieve the refinement of the equipment that the more mature practitioners of the art are used to. Without that there is no future, the entire current resurgence of film photography is living on borrowed time. Folk worry about film, but film availability is predicated on camera availability, it's all the old 35mm and MF cameras breaking down eventually we should really worry about, that's when making film for the consumer market will stop making sense (again). The current window is maybe 10 years, maybe 30 years, but it's definitely finite. On the upside, as long as medical imaging devices remain prohibitively expensive for most of the world, there will always be Foma. :)

[paulbarden]

You are viewing this from the point of view of someone who already has their working shutters. It's now pretty much impossible to buy a shutter, and certainly not one in a working order, if you need to replace a shutter, you need to buy a lens with a suitable working shutter. But lenses have become harder to get than even a couple of years ago, and also more expensive. Most of the shutters I have were not working properly without a CLA

Glass half empty, glass half full. Seems to me you're being unnecessarily negative in your view of the situation. We've got enough doom to go around already.

[Corran]

Intrepid 4x5 and whatever newish lenses you feel best fits your usage. Cheaper? A Crown Graphic with 127mm / 135mm lens, or better yet a Speed in case you find cheap lenses w/o shutter or broken shutter. Used Intrepid is about $250, Crown can be under $200 w/ lens, older Super Angulon 90mm or Symmar-S "normal" lenses can be found for under $200 each.

These will give you plenty of options and many folks making a living with their photographic art are using Intrepid cameras or at least in part (especially for landscape with lots of hiking where light weight gear is prized).

With regard to shutters - every single black-ring Copal shutter I have ever bought has worked flawlessly. Most Copal shutters with silver rings I have bought have been fine save one or two. Compur shutters are a crapshoot and usually have dragging speeds at the lower end if not sticking. Everything else has been in between those extremes. As long as you have a working T/B setting many folks will be okay for common LF subjects.

[John Layton]

T/B junkie here...although I do make some use of a given LF shutter's slow speed mechanism - mostly in the range of 1 sec to perhaps 1/8th.

Having recently taught myself how to dismantle a Copal shutter enough to remove, clean, re-lube, and re-install its slow speed mechanism, I can heartily recommend that others do likewise...as its really not that difficult and reduces repair turnaround time to just under one hour (actually closer to 30 minutes with a bit of practice), at a very attractive price!

[Tin Can]

Good to know

I know I won't be here 2070

Make Hay while the Sun Shines!

Ever watch Dr Strangelove?


_TF_ Yes.

Analogs Dead Cat Bounce
is in peripherals and superficials.

the growth of price for used lenses is beyond reasonable future life; it is a prestige, Veblen valued. People hoping that Film has Rebounded enough to sustain growth. Blooms in the desert don’t mean you can make bread and feed the world.

the future doesn't rely upon finished goods or retail sources. this is a sunset industry.

I intend to make pictures and prints into the 2070s. It can’t be done using the freezer geezer model of stocking up. Nor are the emulsion companies reliable; not even the custom coaters who have swung to alternative projects since 2018.
I’m $13K of direct film costs into a long term project; it will finish this winter, only because an alternate size emulsion is comparable in finish print (onto Maxima). That meant buying 400 rolls of 120 to assure enough coverage for the project.

Fuji did a major rework of direction during this time; taking the lead of Kodak’s change to foundation chemistry for Healthcare. Even in this, it would seem that Fuji is better suited to success: KA is hiring half the chemists that FF is.

Don’t worry that this post will have adverse impact on anything; it will slide off the screen as fast as a splash in a puddle in New Orleans.

[SteveFoote]

I am loving the now converted Polaroid 110a that I have. Its the size of a polaroid (obviously), infinitely pack able, has a great lens, and allows me the freedom to explore and still have a 4x5 option. There are drawback to it as well, but for packability, it's hard to beat.