Does a new luxury 8x10 camera make sense in 2021? [Archive]

Kiwi7475

5-Oct-2021, 16:11

Is luxury anything about making sense?

You’re right of course— my question on “making sense” is not generic though— it’s related to “does it make market sense”, meaning, is there a real market that justifies the cost of bringing the design and manufacturing to the market? Are there going to be a sufficient number of customers at this price point for the product being offered?

Maybe with the “film resurgence” and pandemic effects, prices are going up in such a crazy manner that maybe it does?

Drew Wiley

5-Oct-2021, 16:24

Cost is relative. Somebody might have the right amount of money to spend, but not necessarily the right amount of talent. And as far as we outdoor photographers go, it still tips the weight scale slightly higher than what is feasible today at a sixth the price, even well-done. Still, I applaud any venture this direction. Doubt they have made or ever will make many of these. Maybe the prototype is all that exists. I dunno. But trying to claim the top spot on the pigeon roost might help them market smaller format versions like 4x5.

I have no doubt these will hold up well, along with their $399 apiece filmholders, simply because after spending that much, you simply won't be able to afford film itself or taking the camera anywhere. But people who regard certain categories of fine equipment as "collectible" often aren't concerned about that. They just want the ownership and bragging rights. That's fine too, just not my game. Every real warrior camera wears a few battle scars anyway. I'd be scared to get even a fingerprint on this thing.

It would be fun to see one in person. But looks-wise, for a metal camera, it would be hard to upstage the classic Norma monorail. This Gibellini looks a little too rad, overdone in that respect. Maybe a crocodile skin carry bag should come standard with it. If James Bond shot an 8x10 rather than a pistol, this would be it. Patching bullet holes in the bellows might be an issue. But somebody sure must have gotten a kick out of designing it in the first place. Wonder what kind of car they drive, or motorcycle they ride?

Two23

5-Oct-2021, 16:48

Add a red "Leica" dot and they have a winner.;)

Kent in SD

alan_b

5-Oct-2021, 17:04

I like the description “luxury 8x10 camera”. I picture it coming with electric windows. :D

Yes, I grew up in the 80s.

Well, it has vented grilles at the front and rear rail covers!

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 17:27

The camera that you're talking about is a titanium version of the company's standard 8x10, which Freestyle wants $5,900 for. Depending on features, it might be worth that. The $14,000 surcharge for titanium probably has a pretty limited market :)

Jim Fitzgerald

5-Oct-2021, 17:35

I'm building an Ebony style SW810 out of Walnut as true to the original as I can make it. No titanium but anodized aluminum and it is going to be a sweet camera. I'm about 85% done and if I sold one it would only be $3,000. Everything is relative.

Drew Wiley

5-Oct-2021, 17:41

The distinction between a Stutz Bearcat with or without a genuine brass front?

ic-racer

5-Oct-2021, 17:43

This day and age is the end of the 'good old days' when large format equipment was thrown away or given away for free. Yes, 'this day and age' one has to 'pay to play. '

Drew Wiley

5-Oct-2021, 17:52

Titanium is nice because it is almost as light as aluminum but a lot more durable. Aluminum can be surface hardened by anodizing. But that hardness is just a few mils thick. But aluminum alloys are superior for CNC fabrication, and titanium is relatively difficult to machine. The most cost effective high durability option is stainless steel, but the weight goes way up. Depends on how hard you use/abuse your equipment. Taking an average of a dozen rough mountain trips per year in my younger years, such hardware distinctions were indeed important. Things did get broken or wear out. At my age now, if I were starting out with fresh camera gear, they wouldn't - not enough time or energy left to rough it that hard ever again.

Options are always nice. But just for what another of my good ole distinctly non-rad-looking 8X10 Phillips would cost on the used market, I could upgrade my shop with CNC, a precision micro-mill, and a large enough stockpile of supplies to make a least half a dozen clones of that ! But once again, why at my age? I've already got pretty much all the gear and equipment I really need. Making nice things like a view camera can indeed be a rewarding retirement woodshop hobby; but so can spending that same amount of time making actual prints instead! Can't do it all, and still have time left over to feed the constantly nagging cats.

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 17:56

The standard $5900 camera that Freestyle is selling is called a GP810. The one in this video, which has been on the market for at least four years, is called at P810. A check with the company's website would clarify what's what with models.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbtCCOsrIA

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 17:58

This is a teaser, posted seven months ago, for the GP810 made with titanium:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY_gMTBoqME

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 18:21

Looks like an interesting company: Gibellini Camera History (https://www.gibellinicamera.com/history/)

Drew Wiley

5-Oct-2021, 18:31

Sounds more like a small make-on-demand custom fabricator catering to a variety options feasible with especially modern machinery and materials. That's certainly welcome, and I wish them well. When it comes to style or pretty, I personally align better with the kind of project Jim Fitzgerald has in mind. As far as functionality goes, I prefer my simplified bare bones un-pretty 8X10 Phillips just the way it is. I do have a 4x5 Ebony.

wager123

5-Oct-2021, 18:39

anyone here own one of their cameras and if so how did you like it
Mitch

Two23

5-Oct-2021, 18:41

Depends on how hard you use/abuse your equipment. Taking an average of a dozen rough mountain trips per year in my younger years, such hardware distinctions were indeed important. Things did get broken or wear out.

If I had a $20,000 camera it would probably rarely even see the sunshine. It would be the camera I baby the most.;)

Kent in SD

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 19:05

anyone here own one of their cameras and if so how did you like it
Mitch

I'd like to know this too.

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 19:06

Sounds more like a small make-on-demand custom fabricator catering to a variety options feasible with especially modern machinery and materials.

It looks like they're also making a competitor to the Intrepid.

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 19:11

Presentation by founder Allesandro Gibelinni at a 2019 trade show:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=115Gsz5aC7U

Michael R

5-Oct-2021, 19:16

r.e.

5-Oct-2021, 19:27

I’d worry about being disappointed. For $20,000+ I’d expect a lot more than slick materials. It would have to be the most usable, well designed/engineered, precision made, and rigid view camera ever. Some sort of Leica 8x10. I can almost guarantee it isn’t any of these things, but if I’m wrong, more power to anyone who can afford one.

Don't know if you saw the last few posts, but the standard, non-titanium version of the camera is $5900. That's Freestyle's price. Don't know what the price is directly from Allesandro Gibellini.

I'd like to know what forum participant Marco Annaratone thinks of Gibellini. There's a pretty good chance that he's checked them out.

Kiwi7475

5-Oct-2021, 19:32

Don't know if you saw the last few posts, but the standard, non-titanium version of the camera is $5900. That's Freestyle's price. Don't know what the price is directly from Allesandro Gibellini.

I'd like to know what forum participant Marco Annaratone thinks of Gibellini. There's a pretty good chance that he's checked them out.

Direct price is between 5,190 and 6,812 Euros, depending on frame and bellows color… pretty comparable since 5,190 Euros is about 6,000 USD.

https://www.gibellinicamera.com/product/gp810/

Ari

5-Oct-2021, 19:33

Oren Grad

5-Oct-2021, 20:03

anyone here own one of their cameras and if so how did you like it

Don't know if you saw the last few posts, but the standard, non-titanium version of the camera is $5900. That's Freestyle's price. Don't know what the price is directly from Allesandro Gibellini.

I'd like to know what forum participant Marco Annaratone thinks of Gibellini. There's a pretty good chance that he's checked them out.

There is discussion about Gibellini's products and customer service in other threads here.

Mark Sampson

5-Oct-2021, 20:31

If Ghibellini has the design and production of their regular cameras figured out, then adding a "luxury" option with more expensive materials is an easy choice. It's a marketing method used by car manufacturers since time immemorial.

An example: in the late 1940s Ford offered a wooden-bodied convertible called the "Sportsman" in addition to their regular lineup (which included a metal-bodied convertible). Ford owned a great deal of timberland then, so the wood was free; they were already making wooden-bodied station wagons, so they had craftsmen who could build the bodies; and the rest of the car was a perfectly standard Ford V-8. They could put one in the dealer's showroom to draw people in to see the exotic (and expensive) new model, and then sell them a standard two-door or four-door sedan that the customer could actually afford. You can see this idea at work in any new-car showroom today. So I suspect that this is what the "luxury" Ghibellini is really meant for... to show what the company is capable of. Which adds perceived value to their everyday models, always a good thing.

By the way, relatively few Ford Sportsman convertibles were actually made, but each was worth a great deal in publicity value, and today the few survivors are extremely valuable. Oddly enough, my wife's parents were able to buy one new in 1947... it was known as the "Dreamboat" in the family, but sadly did not survive until my wife was born (much less survive until I met her).

LabRat

6-Oct-2021, 03:22

That teaser with the paparazzi flashing and smoke is really over the top... Do anything for anyone here??? ;-)

Ah, go to a golf klub and watch them polish up those mega $$$ clubs, and still shoot so-so... A pro would be able to buy a set of old clubs at the church bazaar, thrift etc and shoot the pants off of those braggers on the greens...

Me figures its bragging rights, "golden parachute" recipients, or some who gamble against themselves by plunking a wad of cash down betting they will come out ahead if they bet their fortune on their "investment"... ("Go Big"!!!)

Others buy cars that can do 180mph+ and drive to the market or bar... Dreaming of a blonde in the passenger seat... ;-)

In Weston's Daybooks, he wrote somewhere about his cameras getting old and wished he could send them in for an overhaul... (And that was then!!!) Anyone doing better than a Weston these days???

Steve K

Tin Can

6-Oct-2021, 03:40

Envy

LabRat

6-Oct-2021, 03:47

Envy

Nah, foolish... Wanna see my bellows extension??? :-]

Steve K

Tin Can

6-Oct-2021, 04:57

Bellows age poorly

and we cannot take anything on our final journey

Nah, foolish... Wanna see my bellows extension??? :-]

Steve K

Greg

6-Oct-2021, 05:13

I think it all makes sense if Gibellini fabricates one camera to show off, and then others to be built one by one as orders are placed for them. At 20K per camera, makes total business sense to me. Reminds me of a craftsman/photographer/machinist who did essentially the same about 10 or 20 years ago here in the states.

Michael R

6-Oct-2021, 05:52

Inevitably in any fancy gear thread someone will make this “Weston argument”. Come on, that’s not the point. Sure, it’s good to keep some perspective on all of this stuff (George Tice has been using the same clunker Deardorff for over 50 years), but so what?

That teaser with the paparazzi flashing and smoke is really over the top... Do anything for anyone here??? ;-)

Ah, go to a golf klub and watch them polish up those mega $$$ clubs, and still shoot so-so... A pro would be able to buy a set of old clubs at the church bazaar, thrift etc and shoot the pants off of those braggers on the greens...

Me figures its bragging rights, "golden parachute" recipients, or some who gamble against themselves by plunking a wad of cash down betting they will come out ahead if they bet their fortune on their "investment"... ("Go Big"!!!)

Others buy cars that can do 180mph+ and drive to the market or bar... Dreaming of a blonde in the passenger seat... ;-)

In Weston's Daybooks, he wrote somewhere about his cameras getting old and wished he could send them in for an overhaul... (And that was then!!!) Anyone doing better than a Weston these days???

Steve K

sperdynamite

6-Oct-2021, 07:43

Has no one brought up the threads in this forum regarding Gibellini? Their craftsmanship is trash. Their ultra expensive 8x10 holders didn't even fit in my Chamonix 810V. The camera they sold me had light leaks from day 1 and required 2 factory trips from Maine to Italy to fix it. They didn't cover my shipping costs by the way. Of course they have a 20k titanium camera that no one will buy, if someone actually buys it they will find out how deficient it is.

Heiland is going to sell their 810 enlarger for about $22k, but it's state of the art, motorized, and from a trusted company. They'll probably find a small but enthusiastic number of buyers. This Gibellini thing? Yeah right. Maybe the kid of some billionaire will blow his allowance on it and leave it on a shelf....

Bernice Loui

6-Oct-2021, 11:41

Meh.. more marketing horse puckey prompted by the current fashion of LF & the idea-belief 8x10 IS the ultimate film format...

Absolutely zero difference in common with other stratospheric $ "limited production" exotic cars, furniture, techno-widgets all objects to project wretched excess of conspicuous consumption.

In this specific case this beyond over priced 8x10 field folder can never produce a "better" picture on it's own, but can provide the user-owner of this field folder with the fantasy of superiority over all "lesser" cameras, no?

Regardless of the Titanium and what ever else precious metals or ... used to make this "camera", it remains a light tight box that is flexi in the center.. field folder style with each and every limitation baked into each and every field folder style view camera.

Bernice

Jody_S

6-Oct-2021, 12:02

Why not make a lf camera status symbol? They exist in every other format. And judging from what I see on the roads around town, and advertising, there's a lot of people with too much money buying luxury cars and watches and scotch whiskys and whatnot. We're still in the 'K-shape' recession recovery from 2008, where the top is gaining rapidly while the bottom is still falling. There's no point making new cameras for the working class who can barely afford a phone.

fotopfw

6-Oct-2021, 12:05

As I come nearer to 70 I care more about functionality. I don't go that far from the car anymore with 8x10". So now I use the Sinar P2 in the field, 10 yards from the car. And I shoot about 20 images a year. That forbids for me any new camera in this format. Once for my business, now for pleasure, all those years still the same machine. How it looks doesn't matter to me, if it works, it's fine. They could never sell me a camera on looks. So this one, easy to let it go by.

ic-racer

6-Oct-2021, 12:05

... I prefer my simplified bare bones un-pretty 8X10 Phillips ...
Probably the most desirable, innovative and expensive camera ever produced in the USA....

Drew Wiley

6-Oct-2021, 12:06

Yeah, the stale ole argument that if EW didn't need something precise, why do we? Well, for one thing, he generally only made contact prints. For another, better equipment is more reliable. It always makes sense over the long run to get the best you can afford, or that you really need functionally, in a realistic sense. But that does not necessarily equate directly into a lot more shekels or bars of gold, especially if you happen to be the first kid on the block to acquire something new and untested.

What is ironic, however, is that Freestyle is promoting the camera under question. They're a convenient resource for film and printing paper, developers, etc. I happily spend money with them. But gear wise, camera and darkroom equipment wise, they've always catered to bottom feeders, or more politely, beginners unwilling to spend much. Kinda a marketing mismatch. Suddenly the skateboard shop is selling glitzy Lamborghinis too?

As per Sperdynamite's comments, I can't adjudicate em, but nonetheless remain personally skeptical about the dimensional stability of 3d printed components versus actual machined or diecast parts.

Tin Can

6-Oct-2021, 12:19

andre1960

6-Oct-2021, 12:32

A while ago I had the opportunity to play a little bit with a gibellini 8x10 camera which cost around 4000 euro in the Netherlands.
Then I realised that in the end it really does not matter with what you photograph. It is all about the final image.
The viewer will not see the difference if the image is taken with a 4000 or 400 euro 8x10 camera. I rather spend the money on film and darkroom paper than overly fancy equipment that does not add anything in my view.

Regards
André

15-Oct-2021, 19:54

I heard thru a dealer that one of his customers had some issues w/that 20K cam that took forever to fix..
Something about a defective part..
I'm not sure why anyone would want it..
1 drop or bang..and thats it.
Partys over..

Drew Wiley

15-Oct-2021, 20:28

Why spend 20K on an unreliable camera when for the same amount you can buy an unreliable car?

LabRat

15-Oct-2021, 20:52

But I did have a pro photo friend (recently passed) who would have went ga-ga over this camera... He loved Italian design, bought Italian sports cars (and put up with their idiosyncratic issues), and thought style was the first requirement... And being unique...

He was not of means, but would have scraped up the dough for this...

It made him happy... RIP Edward... ;-)

Steve K

Jody_S

16-Oct-2021, 12:39

Just watched a talk by author of 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1177_B.C.:_The_Year_Civilization_Collapsed)

Seems we humans have stumbled many times

Perhaps a camera will survive if valued enough

They were chuckling, how weak our infrastructure is compared to Bronze age

Buy that ikon and preserve it in a hole

Virtually none of us have enough land to grow our own food, nor the knowledge necessary to do so. All it would take for civilization to collapse is for our trucking system to fail, given that almost all of our food travels hundreds or thousands of miles to reach us. Our present circumstances are far more precarious than most of us realize.

Tin Can

16-Oct-2021, 13:09

JUST IN TIME supply chains

idiots

This winter will be Hell

Virtually none of us have enough land to grow our own food, nor the knowledge necessary to do so. All it would take for civilization to collapse is for our trucking system to fail, given that almost all of our food travels hundreds or thousands of miles to reach us. Our present circumstances are far more precarious than most of us realize.

Drew Wiley

16-Oct-2021, 16:05

Bah humbug. Where I grew up we did grow and raise darn near everything we needed. It's was a hour's drive to the nearest sizable market, and that certainly wasn't a supermarket in any current sense.

But this is a camera thread. And a 20K zany Italian camera might indeed make a good hood ornament on a zany paint job Lamborghini. Waste not, recycle everything, whether food or overpriced camera gear.

jnantz

24-Oct-2021, 06:53

of course its worth it !

Only Og Oggelby would be caught dead some old fashioned gear, a cobbled together 50 or 100 year old camera and vintage lenses.

Virtually none of us have enough land to grow our own food, nor the knowledge necessary to do so. All it would take for civilization to collapse is for our trucking system to fail, given that almost all of our food travels hundreds or thousands of miles to reach us. Our present circumstances are far more precarious than most of us realize.

that's why we are all going to mars! get with the program Jody_S

To quote William Claude Dunkenfields: "don't be a moon calf, don't be a jabbernow. if 5 will get you 10, 10 will get you 20. ... think of a house in the country upstairs and down, and hot and cold running beer on your grandmothers paisley shawl". its a long and convolutes story but in the end Egbert Sousé and Og strike it rich, the worthless shares of the beefsteak mines are worth MILLIONS!

So get the luxury camera ( as Max Bialystock yelled: When you got it baby, flaunt it! ). cause pretty soon we're all gonna be wearing a cardboard belt..

Michael R

24-Oct-2021, 07:14

It’s not quite as outrageous as it seems at first. After all, the top line Linhofs are over 10k now (although they are excellent, and we don’t know if this 20k thing is any good). An 8x10 Ebony would likely be over 10k now if they were in production. And you know, I’ll bet your Phillips thingy would similarly be in the luxury price category if it was still being made.

Bah humbug. Where I grew up we did grow and raise darn near everything we needed. It's was a hour's drive to the nearest sizable market, and that certainly wasn't a supermarket in any current sense.

But this is a camera thread. And a 20K zany Italian camera might indeed make a good hood ornament on a zany paint job Lamborghini. Waste not, recycle everything, whether food or overpriced camera gear.

Oren Grad

24-Oct-2021, 08:25

And you know, I’ll bet your Phillips thingy would similarly be in the luxury price category if it was still being made.

I don't think so. We'll never know, but given his market positioning and pricing while he was active, my guess is that Dick's pricing would still be in the same ballpark as Keith Canham's, comparing like formats. It's only in the aftermarket, since Dick retired, that the pricing on his cameras has gone nuts.

Michael R

24-Oct-2021, 08:36

I don't think so. We'll never know, but given his market positioning and pricing while he was active, my guess is that Dick's pricing would still be in the same ballpark as Keith Canham's, comparing like formats. It's only in the aftermarket, since Dick retired, that the pricing on his cameras has gone nuts.

Perhaps. I don't actually know much at all about Phillips cameras - except that Drew has one, so I was kind of trolling him a bit on that one. Busted! :D

gypsydog

24-Oct-2021, 12:53

I bought a Wehman last year, which is a clamshell design.
I drilled holes in the clamshell - speed holes, really. They actually make the camera open and close faster.
The holes also help boost film speed. My regular 80 ISO film is now 320 ISO, thanks to the speed holes.

Interesting, Ive noticed after exposure in my Toyo 810M my film is scratch proof, won't flex and weighs 5 times what it did going in.

On a side note, I truly lust after a Phillips original Compact!

eli

25-Oct-2021, 10:37

Yes, even if you're no a Doctor or Lawyer, a quality tool for actual work can require kit to impress potential clients AND subjects, who will associate your kit and work with the highest sort of product.

Sure, collectors are the first thing another working photographers may think of, in relationship to buyers, but professionals shooting monied subjects or for industrial by dies, must always tolerate the snobs and amateur photographers, in PR and HR gate keepers.

I likely will never own a first quality Ebony or this makers camera, however, even though I never plan to go back to work as a photographer, I would buy such a kit in n an instant, if I had the fortune of luck at the lottery or inheritance, just for the pleasure of working with such rarified tools.

IMO.

John Layton

25-Oct-2021, 11:15

As long as the word "luxury" does not simply equate to window-dressing...but instead to a truly refined, well conceived, rugged, and precise instrument which is built for the long haul, then fine imho.

djdister

25-Oct-2021, 19:14

By their definition, the terms "luxury" and "sense" as in "sensible" are opposing terms. So no, it does not make sense, but when has that stopped anyone...

LabRat

25-Oct-2021, 20:14

Rolex vs Timex... As long as you get to work on time... ;-)

0r dress to impress...

Steve K

Drew Wiley

29-Oct-2021, 12:22

Phillips raised his prices once he couldn't personally keep up with demand and had to subcontract much of it. That was right around the time the II version came out. But given the much wider availability of special laminate mfg these days, as well as improved CNC equip, any of his models would probably cost LESS to make today than back then. For the current asking price of a single used one today, I could probably go out an acquire the machinery and supplies to make a half dozen of them (not paying for my own labor, so not realistically as a business model, but hypothetical net cost). There are no die-castings or seriously machined parts. Still, if you want to buy mine someday, I won't sell it cheap either! I really like its combination of basic simplicity and reliability. No glamour gal, but a really useful wench. And, if ever needed, every bit of it I can fix myself.

Ari

29-Oct-2021, 12:51

I really like its combination of basic simplicity and reliability. No glamour gal, but a really useful wench. And, if ever needed, every bit of it I can fix myself.

I don't own the Phillips, I have a Wehman, which is a different design, but the two designers must be some kind of kindred spirits.
Anything the camera needs, I can make. Nothing complicated here, just properly machined parts and good design.

Tom-Thomas

2-Nov-2021, 16:48

Looks like an interesting company: Gibellini Camera History (https://www.gibellinicamera.com/history/)

Interesting. While the description says he was building a monorail, the photo definitely shows a flatbed.

https://i.imgur.com/yLTn01m.jpg

Tom-Thomas

2-Nov-2021, 16:53

I received this email from freestyle that made me wonder, does it make sense to produce new $20K 8x10 cameras at this day and age?

https://www.freestylephoto.biz/3920811-Gibellini-GP-810ti-8x10-View-Camera-Black-Black-Titanium

Is there really such a market?

(no affiliation here)

I suppose it makes as sense as a $10K "umbrella".

https://i.imgur.com/tGaL6lA.jpg

Drew Wiley

2-Nov-2021, 16:57

Don't get on the subject of women's shoes or handbags. Maybe a Gucci labeled reflector umbrella isn't so overpriced after all.

Tom-Thomas

2-Nov-2021, 17:26

Has no one brought up the threads in this forum regarding Gibellini? Their craftsmanship is trash. Their ultra expensive 8x10 holders didn't even fit in my Chamonix 810V. The camera they sold me had light leaks from day 1 and required 2 factory trips from Maine to Italy to fix it. They didn't cover my shipping costs by the way. Of course they have a 20k titanium camera that no one will buy, if someone actually buys it they will find out how deficient it is.
I once watched on YouTube a new Gibellini 5x7 unboxing and the dude found light leaks right the way. I remember saying to myself, "For such an expensive camera? For real?" Too bad I can can't find the video now.

BLATT LAB

2-Nov-2021, 22:52

I once watched on YouTube a new Gibellini 5x7 unboxing and the dude found light leaks right the way. I remember saying to myself, "For such an expensive camera? For real?" Too bad I can find the video now.

For items like this ( even for a way cheaper intrepid, or for that matter all products that are not mass produced ) I expect the company to have someone double checking everything calculated into the price of the item. But from all the reports on this forum it looks like most company have big problems archiving some kind of decent quality control.
I honestly don't understand how a camera can get shipped out with such obvious problems. Charge whatever it takes to double check every item more and let every item be fully checked right before it gets packaged.
Even when the customer support is great ( wich I also expect from every company but company's also seem to lack often ), that isn't worth anything when I have to send the item back multiple times.
Not to speak about a item that is positioned as a luxury item in the marked. Having good customer support and quality control is the lowest acceptable mark for every item, a luxury item should exceed that by a lot.