an idiot question but need help!

[Crown-LF]

If I developed completely unexposed sheet film, would there be the markings of the film on the sheet e.g. the 'HP5 400' that appears at the borders?

Just spent a long time developing 4 sheets and the results were completely blank, with no edge markings...

I'm pretty sure my technique was fine as have had no issues before - only thing I can think of is if I mistakenly picked up unexposed film from the holders with film instead of holders with exposed film.

[Drew Wiley]

Not all sheet films are the same in this respect. But no exposure at all, then no markings regardless. That kind of thing is not printed onto the film, using ink or anything like that, so itself requires development to show, if there at all.

[LabRat]

The markings are printed with light, so a working developer would develop them...

Developer sounds dead... Take a piece of fogged undeveloped film and insert it into developer... Agitate it a little, and should fog to dark grey/black in about 3-4 minutes if developer is good...

Steve K

[Crown-LF]

hmm ok...so even if i did develop an unexposed sheet, the hp5 markings for example, would still appear? I must have mucked up development somehow. the developer was d76 only mixed a few days before

[MarsZhukov]

I can't speak to HP5, but Ilford FP4+ (at the least the version I have) does not have any rebate markings when properly developed. Again, I would intuitively guess that that is true for all Ilford films, but as I mentioned, I don't shoot HP5 so can't specifically tell you.

EDIT: Put differently, if you developed an unexposed sheet of HP5 and my theory is correct that my experience can be generalized to all Ilford films, you should not conclude you have bad developer on hand.

[paulbarden]

Eff this. I'll keep my thoughts to myself.

[MarsZhukov]

Ilford sheet film doesn't have rebate markings. There would be no identifying letting on the sheets whether the developer worked, or not.

A much more sensible and concise expression of my thoughts. :)

[Drew Wiley]

"Rebate"???? - Are you British, Paul? Here a rebate is money you get back from a purchase. If it's a ledge inside a picture frame, we call it a "rabbet", which of course you might confuse with a hare. Here barbers deal with excess hares. Why can't the English learn proper English to begin with?

[mike rosenlof]

My only slightly expired hp5+ does not have markings on the film edges. you need to expose it.

[maltfalc]

wtf???
What is wrong with you? Why are you attacking me over this??? Who shat in your cornflakes?

don't waste your time on that troll, just add him to your ignore list.

[paulbarden]

don't waste your time on that troll, just add him to your ignore list.

Done.

[Doremus Scudder]

"Rebate"???? - Are you British, Paul? Here a rebate is money you get back from a purchase. If it's a ledge inside a picture frame, we call it a "rabbet", which of course you might confuse with a hare. Here barbers deal with excess hares. Why can't the English learn proper English to begin with?

I have always called the clear area around the image (i.e., the part covered by the rails, etc. in filmholder) the "rebate." I thought that was common parlance...

Of course, I don't mind getting that other rebate too!

To the topic of the thread: Kodak films have printing in the rebate (I don't know what else to call it :) ) that would appear even if the film were unexposed as long as it was developed correctly.

If Ilford films don't have any such markings, then you don't really know what your problem could be. Either you 1) developed unexposed film correctly, 2) Your developer is dead and didn't develop any image on your exposed film, or 3) you mixed up your developer and fixer and fixed first, thereby removing any image before it got a chance to develop. I'll leave you to sort out which.

Best,

Doremus

[Tin Can]

From now on I will call that neg area 9 (https://www.khanacademy.org/math/ap-calculus-ab/ab-applications-of-integration-new/ab-8-4/v/definite-integrals-and-negative-area)

The "Dark Sides"

[Drew Wiley]

Another stereotype of Brits is that they have zero sense of humor, unless it's very dry and aimed at someone else. Then it's "shat" in heaps, which is often what makes piped-in Brit TV comedies so hilariously effective. What was once fun for me was importing classic hand tools from Britain. If a particular kind of "shoulder" hand plane was made here, it was called a rabbet plane, if in England, a rebate plane. But a particular individual in Ohio began making miniature versions of these for sake of violin makers etc, and cutely marketed these as "bunny planes".

"Rebate" would be standard terminology for Ilford with respect to the unexposed perimeter of the film. Kodak would more likely call it the "margin".

[Michael R]

Margin?

It’s properly called the part outside where the picture goes.


Another stereotype of Brits is that they have zero sense of humor, unless it's very dry and aimed at someone else. Then it's "shat" in heaps, which is often what makes piped-in Brit TV comedies so hilariously effective. What was once fun for me was importing classic hand tools from Britain. If a particular kind of "shoulder" hand plane was made here, it was called a rabbet plane, if in England, a rebate plane. But a particular individual in Ohio began making miniature versions of these for sake of violin makers etc, and cutely marketed these as "bunny planes".

"Rebate" would be standard terminology for Ilford with respect to the unexposed perimeter of the film. Kodak would more likely call it the "margin".

[Drew Wiley]

Isn't that what margin means by definition? Now the Canadians can't speak English? But Michael, does "part outside where the picture goes" mean you are placing the picture outside the exposure area itself? Maybe that's why your shots are blank. Try placing the image inside the margins instead next time.

Try to get that kind of thing right before your visit to the Southwest here, and needing to speak Navajo. I can't remember what Navajo for "Kentucky Fried Chicken" is, but the signage is the same everywhere. Don't try Navajo Mex Tex food unless you have a high tolerance for hot spice (I don't). (Just kidding - nearly all of them speak English of some variety, not necessarily the Queen's English). I'm considering whether or not to go there is a month or two. Drought conditions are extreme, so fall color will be affected in some manner, whether for better or worse I can't say.

I'm getting itchy to travel with the 8x10; but things inland are still somewhat dicey in terms of health risk. If one gets injured or in a car wreck, emergency medical services already overwhelmed due to so many unvaccinated people in those states; so waiting a year longer makes sense. Around here on the West Coast things are under much better control. Take care in the meantime.

[Drew Wiley]

Paul, why did you even react that way? Carpenters make jokes about these kinds of terminological foibles all the time. Any woodworker in England enjoys the same joke over it as me. Terms even vary regionally in the same country. Nobody is putting you down. And in fact, many Americans would be potentially confused over the use of the term rebate in relation to film itself without prior knowledge of its alternate meaning. Loosen up and have some fun yourself.

I used to frequently trade quips with an Isle of Skye machinist over US vs UK vs metric standards of measure. It was all in good fun - unless you had to actually work with all those conflicting standards at once, which I had to do in my 20's supplying import auto dealership mechanics. Whitworth was an especially odd system. I joked the British system of measurement was originally based upon how far a Druid priest drunken on mead could throw the head of an ox. I suspect plenty of others have come to the same opinion. That's why I have a conversion calculator, a push-button conversion feature on my electronic calipers, and US fl oz, UK fl oz, and well as ml graduations on all the darkroom cylinders.

[Alan Klein]

wtf???
What is wrong with you? Why are you attacking me over this??? Who shat in your cornflakes?

I think he was pulling your leg. Humor sometimes gets lost on the web.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, when someone attaches an obscenity to you, it sounds pretty annoyed; and I'm not referring to "shat". Once that begins, a red line gets crossed as far as I'm concerned. These are frustrating times, so I try to keep that fact in mind, but sooner or later, it's the Ignore button.

[esearing]

No one has stated the obvious - - Most sheet film has notches to let you know what it is. Also you can test the developer with a half sheet exposed and the other half not exposed. After development one side should be clear and the other dark, but should still be barely able to read news print through it.

[Chauncey Walden]

Guys, give him a break. Remember, he's shooting 5x4 film and it may be different than our 4x5.

[Drew Wiley]

Depends on where on the planet you're shooting. In the northern hemisphere, it will look upside-down vertical 4x5, in the southern hemisphere, rightside up 4x5. The image will look 5X4 left only at the equator, facing west, or 5X4 horizontally right facing east. For everything in the subtropics, you need one of those revolving backs like on the old Deardorff special.