Bought a nice Linhof Master Technika Classic. Can I do the CLA myself to save money?

[manfrominternet]

Hello friends!

I recently bought a really nice and apparently very rare all-black Linhof Master Technika Classic. The outside of the camera looks flawless. The previous owner said he only used the camera approximately 10 times and then kept it in his camera collections display case. Anyway, this gentleman sold this Linhof MT Classic to me for $1500 cash and it included the original box, all the paperwork, and the certification of ownership. Not only that, he also included 4 brand new Lisco Regal film holders.

Once I received the camera, the outside of the MT Classic looked flawless. However, I noticed a few problems upon opening, which signaled that the inside of the camera definitely needs work. It's biggest problem is the front standard baseplate - the part that holds it to the rail had been cracked/sheered off completely. That said, the camera is basically unusable as the front standard doesn't ride or lock onto the tracks. The camera, while built in 2005, also needs new bellows as well as a new silver focusing knob and a new ground glass frame to replace the ones that are damaged/dented in.

That all said, I brought my "new" Linhof MT Classic to my local Linhof repair specialist. He inspected it and a day later he gave me a quote of $1635 to fix everything, including $400 just for the CLA. (See the attached first quote.) 219365 Also, since it's a rangefinder Master Technika Classic, I wanted and asked to have 3 of the lenses cammed (don't know if that's the right spelling) so that I can use the camera handheld with the rangefinder and viewfinder. The technicial suggested that the other 4 lenses have infinity stops installed. This Linhof repair specialist sent me a separate quote which totals $1350. (See attached second quote.) 219366 All together that's over $3000!

I want to say upfront that I really like the Linhof repair specialist who has my camera and sent me these quotes. He seems like an expert in this field who definitely knows what he's doing, however, I certainly can't afford $3000 for all these repairs, cams, and rangefinder coupling.

Not to toot my own horn, but I like to think that I'm a pretty competent camera repair specialist myself. I've fixed plenty of medium format cameras and lenses before. I've even fixed all the electronics in my Pentax 67II myself! I know that the Linhof Master Technika Classic is a different beast altogether, but I wonder if it'd be possible to source these parts myself from Paula at linhofstudio.com for a cheaper price and just fix it myself. I don't know how to get lenses "cammed", but I like to think that I can at least repair and CLA the camera myself.

I'm still a student. To save a bit of money, is self-repairing this Linhof MT Classic something you guys could/would recommend? I suppose I'd need a Linhof Master Technika Classic repair manual.

Also, which lubricants and tools would you guys recommend to CLA this Linhof MT Classic?

Any help you guys can give me would be very, VERY much appreciated.

[Greg]

On a similar note, last year I got some quotes from a machinist on creating/modifying some parts. Quoted prices were jaw dropping. In the end I acquired a Little Machine Shop Model 3990 HiTorque Mini Mill. After a huge dose of self learning and making more than a few mistakes, I was able to machine/modify my wanted parts. For one broken part, I was able to machine a portion of that part and thanks to JBWeld made the repair.

Fabricating bellows is where I draw the line after two feeble attempts to fabricate a replacement bellows.

On your fixing your Pentax 67II's electronics, did you come by some guide, directions, IB, or instructions to refer to? My 67II's meter is consistently off by one stop. I'd love to fix it but don't know where to start.

thanks

[Cor]

Probably not very helpful but I would try to return that seriously damaged camera and get my money back. You did not had the opportunity to investigate the camera before buying ? I mean the 1500 usd looks like a sharp price, but obviously is not.

good luck,

Cor

[r.e.]

Just a comment on the quote of US$295 for a new bellows...

Maybe get a quote from Custom Bellows (http://www.custombellows.co.uk) in the U.K., although it may not be less. They're well-regarded and quoted me £98 ex-VAT (currently about US$136) for an Arca-Swiss 20cm leather bag bellows. However, you'd have to ship them bellows frames if needed (they don't make them), and pay for shipping of the completed bellows to California.

Note that the quote of $295 is less than half of what B&H wants for a Master Technika replacement/spare bellows: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1369137-REG/linhof_035752_bellows_for_technika_3000.html?

[Bob Salomon]

So you know, an all black MT is not a rare camera. We ordered them 50 at a time for several years for the US market as it was cheaper then the regular finished version.

[ic-racer]

I'd get the baseplate for $200, bend the frame back and repair the bellows. What is wrong with the knob? Maybe it can be repaired also.

[djdister]

No, you did not buy a "nice Linhof Master Technika Classic" - you got one with serious problems which should have been disclosed prior to the sale. I would return it and shop wisely next time.

[abruzzi]

I replaced the bellows on my MT using the inexpensive $100 eBay bellows from ecbuyonline. They fit well and aren’t too hard to install.

[r.e.]

I replaced the bellows on my MT using the inexpensive $100 eBay bellows from ecbuyonline. They fit well and aren’t too hard to install.


There's a thread about ecbuyonline2008 and its sister account mytongguy: Bellows from ecbuyonline2008??? (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?70338-Bellows-from-ecbuyonline2008)

[Bernice Loui]

Broken MT is not a nice MT in any way. Cost to repair estimate is reasonable for replacement parts labor and expertise involved to make this MT good and proper again.

DIY repair would be marginal at best due to the fact one of the main structural parts of this MT is broken. Proper weld up, clean up and re-assembly of that part will demand more resources, skills and more to make it nearly as good as it once was.

IMO, sent it back for a refund.

If you're a budget limited student, why a Linhof MT?
Honestly there are very real and serious limitations to a MT and they are not a low cost view camera. Depending on your image goals, camera should never be
the primary choice with view camera based images. Image goals as first and primary, then lenses and process needed to achieve these image goals, then choosing a camera that can fully support any lens and post camera needs to produce images to meet your image goals.



Bernice

[Jim Noel]

By all means - SEND IT BACK! It is too daunting a task for someone inexperienced with the camera to repair it.

[r.e.]

this gentleman sold this Linhof MT Classic to me for $1500 cash

Which suggests an in-person transaction. Yes, it would be best if he could return the camera, but that may not be easy. I would think that he needs to know what other options he has. One of them is small claims court if the camera is actually unusable. It would be helpful to know whether there was an ad and, if so, what it said about the camera's condition, and whether it was on a platform that offers any kind of protection.

The actual repair bill is $1235. The rest is for a CLA and ancillary work.

[Benjamin]

It's biggest problem is the front standard baseplate - the part that holds it to the rail had been cracked/sheered off completely. That said, the camera is basically unusable as the front standard doesn't ride or lock onto the tracks. The camera, while built in 2005, also needs new bellows as well as a new silver focusing knob and a new ground glass frame to replace the ones that are damaged/dented in.

So many red lights here. First, that these serious flaws weren't disclosed before the sale is borderline criminal. But what I don't get, and makes me doubtful of the honesty of the seller, is how such serious damage can happen if you use your camera 10 times and then leave it in a display case. Makes no sense what so ever - I mean, you've got to work pretty hard to break a front standard baseplate the way you've described it.

Lastly, these days, when I buy something used, anybody who asks me for cash payment on anything above 100$ - especially camera stuff - I don't bother with, as I would be left without protection.

Truly hope you can get your money back on this, if you decide to send it back.

If not - and I do know my post doesn't in any way answer your question re: CLA - then yes, your only choice, unless your bank account is pretty substantial, is to try to CLA it yourself. Maybe you can find a cheap used but unusable one sold for parts somewhere.

Personally, if I found out I couldn't return it, I'd bite the bullet and shell out the extra 1635$ instead of risking damaging the camera even further by attempting the repairs myself. And if so, I'd forget about the extra bucks for the new cams. I don't really see the point in hand-held use of a 4x5 camera, honestly.

[abruzzi]

There's a thread about ecbuyonline2008 and its sister account mytongguy: Bellows from ecbuyonline2008??? (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?70338-Bellows-from-ecbuyonline2008)

Yup, I bought lots of stuff, including bellows from them. I had no issues, and the fit of the MT bellows was perfect.

[manfrominternet]

Perhaps this would help if anyone is curious. Here's a link to the original eBay listing that the seller took down (and subsequently had me pay him privately via PayPal): https://www.ebay.com/itm/224549866495?mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=7&ch=osgood&euid=07c449bb4b5746efb29fd66abec6db18&bu=43194219492&osub=-1%7E1&crd=20210804045723&segname=11051&sojTags=ch%3Dch%2Cbu%3Dbu%2Cosub%3Dosub%2Ccrd%3Dcrd%2Csegname%3Dsegname%2Cchnl%3Dmkcid&nma=true&si=ptQkoS4NcRuIop28MGTSK1eKF3o%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

After he had his Linhof MT Classic appraised by Nippon Photo Clinic, he amended what he originally said on his listing. I managed to give him my phone number (a tricky thing to do through eBay) via eBay messages and he called me. He said the camera was in great shape and, importantly, said that the Linhof can be used without the repairs. Anyway, I ended up buying it from him via PayPal. Once it arrived, I drove 2-hours to LAFLEX near Los Angeles to get it appraised. A day later, after I saw how much it would cost to get the camera up to par, I was bewildered, needless to say. If the repair was a little over $1000, then fine, but over $1600? No way. I would end up going broke.

I've been trying to call the seller, but every time I call him, he just hangs up on me. It's at a point where I feel I was defrauded. It hurts too especially because I told him that I'm a student with rather limited funds. While speaking to me on the phone, he reassured me that the repairs would be minimal, under $1000 (even though the Nippon Photo Clinic clearly states that the repairs would cost over $1000.)

So I don't know what to do. The outside of the camera looks great, but on the inside, 1.) the front standard doesn't tilt forward or backward, 2.) when you push the front standard assembly back into the housing, the coupling cam stays to the left (instead of being centered as it should be when closing the camera) and said couplin cam is now bent because the original seller, I guess, closed the camera by force, and 4.) the rangefinder evidently doesn't work properly even with a properly installed cam.

I'm truly embarassed. I feel like an idiot who was duped. I trusted this seller because he seemed honest with the problems of the camera. I guess he was honest just enough to sell the camera.

Nonetheless, I would absolutely love this camera if it worked properly. That's why I'm asking if I should roll up my sleeves and just try to fix it myself. I'm pretty OCD-like when it comes to these things, so I imagine that I could become quite good at repairing cameras, especially seeing as I fixed both my Pentax 67II and my Bronica GS-1 and got them to flawless working condition. But I know the Linhof Master Technika Classic is a different beast.

I'd, of course, appreciate any suggestions on how I can fix this Linhof MT Classic.

To those that read this whole thing, I really appreciate it. :)

[r.e.]

I haven't gone through the eBay Listing and Los Angeles repair estimates in detail, but they appear to be pretty close. The estimate on the eBay Listing is $1155. The estimate that you got in Los Angeles is $1235. The difference is only $80. I'm assuming that the Los Angeles estimate for a CLA ($400) is above and beyond the repair work. Unless I'm missing something, the $1350 estimate for camming is a separate issue entirely.

It sounds like the vendor and you decided to make this deal outside the eBay system. If that's what you did, it saved the vendor eBay's commission, and it saved you retail sales tax. However, in that case the consequence is that you have no recourse against the vendor within eBay.

You do have PayPal protection if you treated this as a purchase of goods. However, you may not if the vendor got you to save him PayPal commission by paying him via "friends and family". If you have no eBay or PayPal protection, you have no realistic recourse against the vendor, given that Georgia is a long way from California.

In any event, if my understanding of the estimates is correct, it isn't obvious that the vendor misled you. The basic problem here may be that you didn't anticipate the CLA cost or the camming cost, or at least didn't anticipate that they would be as high as you are being quoted.

I figure that what you don't need right now is a lecture on doing an end-run around eBay or Pay Pal :) That said, I note that the vendor said "No returns". I have no expertise on eBay, but I recently saw a suggestion that eBay vendors can't, in fact, preclude returns. Might be worth checking to see if that's true for the future. Also, note that if you pay via credit card, your card provider offers its own protection.

[Tobias Key]

Personally I would get the repair done professionally and hold off on the camming and the CLA for now. If you are good at repairs the CLA might be something you could attempt yourself and replacing bellows is pretty easy. You can use the camera without camming the lenses, it's just not as convenient. If you have two 6x7 camera systems perhaps consider selling one of them to cover the costs? If the MT becomes your 'tripod camera' perhaps the GS1 will be excess to requirements.

[Tin Can]

Next time and there will be a next

Buy as good condition box aka "camera" as you can find

That can take a while, but right now many are dumping VGC gear

the end is nigh...

[John Layton]

To the OP...this is truly heartbreaking!

I've been right where you are, and much worse, but in the long run have been thankful that my particular "bumps in the road" happened early in my career and have since paid for themselves many times over in helping me to avoid similar bumps going forward.

While I would not give up in seeking reimbursement just yet...there may come a time when you will need to chalk this up to experience, learn from it and move on. You will get over this! (and hey...you're a student - consider this part of your education!)

[Benjamin]

I feel really bad for you. As someone else mentioned, we've all been there - I have a totally useless Canon QL that I was duped into buying (nothing as high as a Technika!) and that I intend to pick apart one day just for fun.

You do seem left with two choices, either put up the money for the repairs, meaning leaving the camming to another time, or do it yourself.

If you go that route, I suggest checking out the Learn Camera Repair (https://learncamerarepair.com/resources.php) site. They do have the parts diagram for the Linhof Technika V (https://learncamerarepair.com/productlist.php?keywords=linhof). As I mentioned earlier, depending on the damage, you might have to hunt for extra parts (Learn Camera Repair also has a Facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/360490091319202), so maybe you can find parts through there). New bellows, new front standard, new ground glass, new whatever else is broken will still cost you, though. So you'll have to evaluate if that money + time and effort of doing the repairs yourself is worth it.

[John Layton]

Great suggestion above...learn/teach yourself how to fix/field-strip your gear - skills which can make the difference between coming home with actual results...or not! More than once I've needed to fix my gear on-site. Even pulled a Hasselblad apart once - great cameras...but kinda reminded me of the insides of a toaster!

[Chuck Pere]

Do you have a source you can buy the parts from? Maybe you should compare the cost of you buying the parts and doing the repairs vs. the repair quote you received.

[Tin Can]

I have bought plenty of junk, even from sellers on this forum, those guys are long gone, my mistakes...

I never complained, it's educational about people and gear

My first 4X5 was a Press Camera, is was not as advertised on eBay, but seller was local

I bitched, he sent me to a good local camera repair shop. It was fixed, he paid

Ever take apart a Mamiya C3? My copy still had beer can printing on the sheet metal inside

I now prefer the C3 over the other in the line

[Bernice Loui]

Appears the transaction was made off eBay which absolutely limits any kind of recourse or intervention eBay and Pay Pal could have offered.

The DIY fix it yourself, while on the surface is appealing in many ways, it holds LOTs of chances for making this bad situation FAR worst. Unless the skills, tools, replacement parts and experience of having done a near identical repair preciously, the risk of making this awful situation FAR worst is very, very real.

Rational choices would be:

~Send this MT into a properly qualified service facility for proper repair as they will have the correct parts, experienced individuals, speciality tools and resources to properly repair this MT back to what it once was. DIY repairs with anything lesser often results in a wonky camera that sorta-kinda works at best.

~Find a buyer for this broken MT with full disclosure of what the problems are and the buyer fully aware of what they are taking ownership of.

~The alternatives to this are not good at all.~


What happened is likely based on many emotions and less than rational desire for a camera fantasy that is the mystical means to the idealized image.

Linhof being a brand with a reputation for high quality cameras are one of the factors that was a driving force behind the desire for a MT. As with many things in life, the fantasy -vs- reality are often very different from each other. Fact is, the Linhof MT has a number of very serious limitations that makes it far less than ideal for some view camera based images. Within it's limitations, the MT is a GOOD view camera in many ways. This assertion is based on owning and using a number of Linhof MTs over the decades of both 4x5 and 5x7.. Never going back to that camera again. Much the same applies to the VH series of Hasselblad, Leica M and a number of "highly" desirable cameras.

Then comes the bait based on perceived bargain. The desire emotion for a Linhof MT over rides the reality this is one expensive camera to fix. The belief-fantasy of getting that highly desired fantasy camera at a bargain becomes the driving emotion to make this transaction happen. Once the reality of what occurred, the emotional and economic fleecing is awful in so many ways.


Bernice

[r.e.]

Never going back to that camera again. Much the same applies to the ... Leica M...



WHAT!!! The one camera that might get me to part with my all-time favourite, a 1956 M3 double stroke, is an M4 :)

[Bernice Loui]

Heh... Leica M got replaced by Contax G _!_

Oh, what the :rolleyes:
Bernice



WHAT!!! The one camera that might get me to part with my all-time favourite, a 1956 M3 double stroke, is an M4 :)

[Chauncey Walden]

And, just a comment, my favorite 4x5 is a Tech III bought off the list a decade or so ago for $200. As soon as I fell in love with it, I decided I needed a spare so that I would not ever be without one. I found another one on the list for, you guessed it, $200. Its kit bag has all Tessar lenses. My first one has the newer stuff. The only thing I had to do with them was make a very simple mod to the back so they would use Grafmatic holders. They were OK with Kinematics without the mod. I got real value that far, far exceeded the cost.

[manfrominternet]

For the difficult repairs, I will save it for someone like Austin at LAFLEX, who specializes in these cameras. In the meantime, however, I think I can repair the very simple stuff like cleaning and lubricating.

That said, can anyone please recommend me a set of camera tools and camera lubricants? That would be much appreciated.

While I feel that was happened to me was horrible, I will try to make the most of it. Like I said, I'll try to fix the very easy things first and let an experienced professional deal with the rest.

Anyway, please let me know if you guys have any suggestions for a good camera tool set and camera lubrication.

Thank you guys all so much again. I really appreciate the thoughtful and constructive comments. (They make me feel much better than feeling stuck in embarassing and hopeless despondancy.)

[Benjamin]

For the difficult repairs, I will save it for someone like Austin at LAFLEX, who specializes in these cameras. In the meantime, however, I think I can repair the very simple stuff like cleaning and lubricating.

That said, can anyone please recommend me a set of camera tools and camera lubricants? That would be much appreciated.

Again, please check the website I linked in an earlier post. You'll find all the info you need, including tools.

https://learncamerarepair.com/index.php
https://learncamerarepair.com/tools.php

[LabRat]

I dunno, these cameras are tough and hard to screw-up, so it must have had a hard life, with maybe other hidden damages... (Or poor repair attempts...) BIG red flag!!! And newer models have specific repair parts maybe not available outside of in-house pro repairs...

To retain resale value, a pro repair is helpful... Add camera cost to repair bill to see how it compares to nice used one... Maybe seller can refund difference if you show him the repair bill... Unlikely you will get RF and camera alignments correct without special tools & skills...

My Tek III was cheap, but was "vandalized" before I got it (like thrown around a room), but was worked on by a tech before I purchased, I used it pro for many years, but I restored it fully several years ago, and use it weekly... Camera seems happy now... But I heard later ones had nylon parts here and there that crumble over time, so a Linhof service tech would replace them automatically (and have them), so that's who should be doing the work...

Steve K

[manfrominternet]

To those who are interested, here are the photos of the camera:
219475 219476 219477 219478

[manfrominternet]

219479 219480 219481 219482

[manfrominternet]

219483219483 219484219485

[Embdude]

I have always worked on my Technikas myself... If I kept sending them out I would not have as many toys!

They are very easy cameras to work on, big parts, no real gotchas, but this is tempered by the difficulty finding parts. No repair shop will sell any Linhof parts in my experience which leaves ebay and the good folks here and on the facebook forums. I have had luck with both. I still have a small list of needed parts though. Linhof in Munich will sell a lot of parts (especially for the later model cameras like yours) but they have a 100 euro minimum and no way to take direct payment, if you know the exact part you need it may be worth contacting them directly as they are very nice.

It is possible your camera fell over on a tripod... that is how I received my Technika IV... it actually fell on the lens which was nice enough to take the brunt, but it also sheared off the lensmount from the front standard... Ended up having to make some parts at home but it is all good now.

If I were you I would do my own CLA and focus on the items absolutely needed to get in working shape.

The bellows can be patched up for now.

As the front standard moves onto the perch inside the box it pushes on the odd shaped piece of flat metal and that centers the RF cam, if the base of the standard is damaged then perhaps it is not engaging it. Show a photo of the damage to the base of the front standard so we can see what we have to work with. What does it look like on the bottom of the standard?

How bad is the focus wheel? is it just wobbly or is it preventing the rail from moving?

Show a photo of the damage to the back and glass. The whole back of the camera easily changes out if need be and backs are available on ebay.

A good set of screwdrivers is a must.
Old lubercant can be removed with lighter fluid and Linhof recommends Vaseline for re-lube.
I have just re-lubed a wartime Technika and used SuperLube and am very happy with it.
Most repair shops probably use white lithium grease.

[Embdude]

As mentioned facebook is a great source for repair info. The learn camera repair group is very good.

There is also several linhof groups with very helpful people, some who work on their own cameras.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/Linhof
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1749363195199840