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Bernice Loui
1-Sep-2021, 15:46
While looking for Elinchrom light modifiers on eBay happened across two 404 flash power packs. These are rated at 4000W/S per unit, price was not resistable.

Off with the covers to reveal:
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Other than decades of dust and dirt. Mostly ok, except for the RIFA (swiss made) capacitors that have a proven history of failure.
219260

Replaced them all.
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The main capacitor bank with the bottom off.
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Once the apparent dead parts were replaced-repaired, time for reforming ALL the capacitors. If not done properly, any of these capacitors can explode upon initial power up.


Bernice

Bernice Loui
1-Sep-2021, 15:57
Setting up to reform the capacitors.
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Once the capacitors were reformed, tested ok, covers went back on.. power up, both 404 units work.
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Frame clip from iPhone slow-mo video, iphone imager got light over load.
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Two flash heads produce ~f64 at 10ft using the 90 degree wide angle reflector.
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Now possible to do view camera images using once extremely common high power flash systems with light modifiers as needed.
More than one project comes to mind.



Bernice

Peter De Smidt
1-Sep-2021, 16:08
Great job, Bernice!

Mark Sampson
1-Sep-2021, 17:12
Not a job for the unskilled... well done!

LabRat
2-Sep-2021, 00:10
Great find/Great job!!! Haven't seen that much light output since my studio daze, and nice in a smallish pack... Those wetplaters also like those power poppers...

Are those a single or bi-tube head??? Plan on doing set-ups or AC friendly locations with it???

You know what to do inside pack, but carefully, and stick to your plan to be safe...

I want to dig out my pair of G/R 1531a high speed strobes + accessories to see if they still work... Weak output, but can be used cameraless direct to film... Interested in liquids... (When I get re-settled...)

Hope you are better... Have fun!!!

Steve K

Tin Can
2-Sep-2021, 06:47
Yes, good work

Long ago I sent a small pack to Montreal on eBay

It worked well after

Bernice Loui
2-Sep-2021, 11:04
Yes, this worked out good. 8000w/s was more than enough for the majority of indoor film view camera work.
These days with digital cameras, that much flash power is beyond excessive due to the light sensitivity of digital imagers and the demand for short duration
stop action flash images.

Lighting is often not appreciated as to the importance of image making and easily applies to outdoor image making in ways that can be surprising.
All sorts of view camera images that could only be made using this amount of flash power comes to mind. Kilo watt/second flash power might appear to be excessive until light modifiers are added. The light loss and larger area to be lighted eats up lighting power in the most remarkable ways. Been there, Done this one time too many.


There appears to be an interest to use these vintage high power flash systems for wet plate images due to the slow ISO if wet plate. It's been done:
https://pdnonline.com/gear/lighting-techniques/how-i-got-that-shot-wet-plate-portraits-in-a-flash/

https://fourtoes.co.uk/iblog/the-strobes-of-doom/


Given the popularity of wet plate images, it is very possible, with not a lot of difficulty to get a light spectrum specific high power Xenon flash tube that fits the light spectral sensitivity of wet plate made for these vintage high power flash systems. This coupled with lenses that are designed to transmit the light spectrum needed for wet plate should go a good ways to reducing the amount of light needed to produce proper exposure for wet plate work.

Add a proper light-flash meter and light modifiers specific to wet plate images are the beginnings of taking wet plate image making into using modern image making tools.



Bernice

Bernice Loui
2-Sep-2021, 11:18
Last time using multi Elinchrom 404 was indoor set images using a Sinar 8x10 with Fujichrome. Fun stuff back then. We would find a vintage location, get a group of friends together, do set matching costume, set up lighting, camera and all for 2-4 sheets of 8x10 color transparency film. Many good-fun memories from those times. Not quite possible today in the same ways that were not so difficult to do back then.. about three decades ago.

Plan for now is to apply these 404's for still life or similar indoor images with diffused and other flash power eating light modifiers.

If any one of those twin flash tube heads shows up, likely try for it as the X8 or X8000 allows 8000w/s from a single flash head. Kinda remember you'll get f90 at ~10-12ft with a Mola beauty dish with diffuser (these are better without the diffuser).

GR and others made those flash units to study mechanical motion. Version of those are made today for mechanical study work and more. GR was the first to produce these a long time ago.

Yes, these high power flash packs are instant death in a box. Do one wrong move, you're instantly dead. Great care and respect and focused attention must be applied doing work on these.


Bernice





Great find/Great job!!! Haven't seen that much light output since my studio daze, and nice in a smallish pack... Those wetplaters also like those power poppers...

Are those a single or bi-tube head??? Plan on doing set-ups or AC friendly locations with it???

You know what to do inside pack, but carefully, and stick to your plan to be safe...

I want to dig out my pair of G/R 1531a high speed strobes + accessories to see if they still work... Weak output, but can be used cameraless direct to film... Interested in liquids... (When I get re-settled...)

Hope you are better... Have fun!!!

Steve K

Andreas
2-Sep-2021, 11:24
I have several of these with 8000w heads. Ideal for wetplate and needed when using modifiers.
Servicing them is not for the faint of heart, the capacitors can kill easily.
If my memory serves me well, the Rifas came from Sweden, but he units were assembled in Swizerland (close to where I live).
Best
Andreas

erie patsellis
4-Sep-2021, 13:15
Bernice, I have several Broncolor packs with Rifa madness, I’m hoping that I’ll have time to replace them this winter.

LabRat
4-Sep-2021, 13:36
Yes, these high power flash packs are instant death in a box. Do one wrong move, you're instantly dead. Great care and respect and focused attention must be applied doing work on these.


Bernice

Yeah, last good zap I got was from lifting a chassis with a live 3.5A SMPS P/S that had a hot isolated heat sink and my finger was just near it... Got a nasty burn spot on my finger, and arm was numb for a couple of hours... Unfortunately, I survived... :(

I don't like working in strobes... Even tiny on-camera types have a way of getting my attention (live cap cases, etc)...

Steve K

Andreas
5-Sep-2021, 01:26
A few thoughts:
Two 404's with a twin 8000 w/sec head do not seem to be an f-stop brighter than a single 404 with a 4000 w/sec head (closer to 1/2 f-stop). Might be specific to my rig though.
The power output is amazing, you can feel it just by holding the head's cable in your hands.
My models don't seem to mind the light, but I wish I had pyrex covers over the tubes.
In the eighties, Elinchrom and Broncolor were on par and the two options found in swiss photo studios.
Will today's equipment be servicable in fourty years ?
Best
Andreas

Tin Can
5-Sep-2021, 04:07
Watts mean nothing to me

BUT f90 at 10' with diffuser does! That is impressive

Really glad I use P C Buff for Digi and film, with flash meter



......If any one of those twin flash tube heads shows up, likely try for it as the X8 or X8000 allows 8000w/s from a single flash head. Kinda remember you'll get f90 at ~10-12ft with a Mola beauty dish with diffuser (these are better without the diffuser).....



Bernice

Bernice Loui
5-Sep-2021, 11:38
Might be impressive, yet required for view camera images back in the day. Seems kilowatt/second strobe power has become mostly forgotten today due to the domination of Digital imaging which requires far less strobe power.

Kilowatt strobe power appears to be gaining popularity with the wet plate and similar alternative process image folks.

Back in those days, Broncolor and Elinchrom were the high power strobe systems that were similar in many ways. The both offered high quality strobe systems with a good selection of light modifiers that became Foto industry standards. Again, much of this stuff has become long forgotten and not used much today by view camera folks due to the majority of folks today making outdoor view camera images with field folder view cameras.

It's a relic from a very different time and place. Very repairable and built to last and endure.


Bernice



Watts mean nothing to me

BUT f90 at 10' with diffuser does! That is impressive

Really glad I use P C Buff for Digi and film, with flash meter

Tin Can
5-Sep-2021, 11:56
Sometimes for studio still life, I pop 2 PGB 640ws heads 10 times for very old plate

I tried movie hot lamps 1k and 2k Mole

The heat freaked me out at 10 ft on my white paper drop, I took them right back to my movie guy

Bernice Loui
5-Sep-2021, 18:19
Or one whopper strobe pop. Highly preferred.

Apply light modifier like a soft box, loss of ~two f-stops. Demand a taking aperture of f22 or smaller demands more strobe power.
Illuminate a large area again more strobe power.

More than two strobe pops risk camera or object movement (not a problem for non-living objects) blurry image due to movement.

More than two strobe pops rapidly reduces the actual exposure on film, same light loss laws applies.

Any wonder why these Kilowatt/second strobe units were so very common back in the days when film view camera
work was as common?

Hot lights are named hot lights for very good reasons.


Bernice




Sometimes for studio still life, I pop 2 PGB 640ws heads 10 times for very old plate

I tried movie hot lamps 1k and 2k Mole

The heat freaked me out at 10 ft on my white paper drop, I took them right back to my movie guy

Peter De Smidt
5-Sep-2021, 19:05
Quite awhile ago now, I worked in a fairly large commercial studio. It was big enough to have whole house sets in some of the bays. When I got there in 2006, they were all digital, but they still used some of the old equipment. Lighting was mostly Speedotron Black Line 4800 packs. The guys said that when you a bunch of them on a huge set that you could hear the electrical wires in the conduits make all sorts of noises. A flash putting out a full 4800ws has a distinct sound when fired. Whooomp!

Bernice Loui
6-Sep-2021, 10:35
Speedotron remains one of the top US designed/built high power, high quality strobe systems available. Speedotron and Norman Enterprise were most popular for HP strobe systems. Notable about Speeedotron was their 105 quad flash tube head capable of 9600w/s.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/595173-REG/Speedotron_12246I_105_CC_UV_Quad_Tube.html

To get that whopping amount of strobe power requires two Speedotron 4800w/s power packs or four 2400w/s power packs.


Elinchrom's 404, 202, 101R then "Classic" 1500, 3000, 6000 series strobe power packs have a strobe recycling rate control switch. Snail for slow, diamond for medium, rabbit for fast recycling times.
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Preference is to use the snail or slow recycling time. This greatly reduces the peak pulse current from the power mains which can be really, really high due to the energy demands to charge up these massive capacitor banks.

Sound from these high power strobe heads producing light does have a distinct Whooooomp due to the heat produced by the quartz envelop flash tube causing a whole lotta air expanding rapidly around that area.


Bernice



Quite awhile ago now, I worked in a fairly large commercial studio. It was big enough to have whole house sets in some of the bays. When I got there in 2006, they were all digital, but they still used some of the old equipment. Lighting was mostly Speedotron Black Line 4800 packs. The guys said that when you a bunch of them on a huge set that you could hear the electrical wires in the conduits make all sorts of noises. A flash putting out a full 4800ws has a distinct sound when fired. Whooomp!

Peter De Smidt
6-Sep-2021, 20:36
I still have a 4800, a 2400, and 2-1200s. They aren't fancy, but they are very reliable. I use them on the slow recharge setting.

Kohler Company still uses some Black Line packs that look to be older than I am.

Andreas
7-Sep-2021, 08:23
Bernice is spot on. Without the "snail" setting, I would blow out my fuses each time I fire the 5x 404 generators for collodion pictures . Try to shoot a group portrait at 1 ISO at F 16 with lights 10m away...
Never thought about the reason why at low power the sound is more of a "tic" and at full power at loud "puff". Also explains why vented covers melt with just one flash (and no pilot light).
These generators used to cost a fortune, will this thread raise the prices again ?
Best
Andreas

Daniel Unkefer
7-Sep-2021, 09:18
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51433764068_dc53d301d8_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mn2u8E)Broncolor Pulso 606 6000ws head 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mn2u8E) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Fifteen years ago I walked into Midwest Photo on High Street on a Saturday, and they had: two Broncolor 606 220V power packs 6000ws each. And four Pulso 606 heads that can each handle 6000ws. Here is one of them. And a 6000ws Pulso Hazylight head, complete with diffuser and grid screen as well. Hazylight was mounted on a crane-like Matthews Tripod Rolling Stand, with an overhead boom for the UK Broncolor division. Plus a very expensive Theatrical Spotlight hacked to hold another 606 head. It also had a seperate cooling fan with AC plug to keep the unit cool. Plus lots of parts and doodads, snapped it all up for $600 BTW 12,000 ws in one pop is like one hundred and twenty Vivitar 283s all popping at once. Pity the poor professional models who had to look into these. Been there and done that

Larry at Broncolor Service asked me if I had any idea present value money would price these 606 packs at? He floored me, over $100,000 each, and there is always one of these "back in the corner" of the old commercial studios. Larry called the 606's "The Iron Horse" which just keeps going and going and going. I had dual 220V inputs installed in the studio and yes I had these fired up for a while. Great big strobes WOW it makes a pop when two of these go off at once. I had a lot of help from knowledgable others to fairly safely done this back at the time.

This 606 head is mounted on a vintage FOBA multiple light stand made from old FOBA Combitubes.

Bob Salomon
7-Sep-2021, 09:58
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51433764068_dc53d301d8_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mn2u8E)Broncolor Pulso 606 6000ws head 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mn2u8E) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Fifteen years ago I walked into Midwest Photo on High Street on a Saturday, and they had: two Broncolor 606 220V power packs 6000ws each. And four Pulso 606 heads that can each handle 6000ws. Here is one of them. And a 6000ws Pulso Hazylight head, complete with diffuser and grid screen as well. Hazylight was mounted on a crane-like Matthews Tripod Rolling Stand, with an overhead boom for the UK Broncolor division. Plus a very expensive Theatrical Spotlight hacked to hold another 606 head. It also had a seperate cooling fan with AC plug to keep the unit cool. Plus lots of parts and doodads, snapped it all up for $600 BTW 12,000 ws in one pop is like one hundred and twenty Vivitar 283s all popping at once. Pity the poor professional models who had to look into these.

Larry at Broncolor Service asked me if I had any idea present value money would price these at? Over $100,000 each and there is always one of these "back in the corner" of the old commercial studios. Larry called the 606's "The Iron Horse" which just keeps going and going and going. I had dual 220V inputs installed in the studio and yes I had these fired up for a while. Great big strobes WOW it makes a pop when two of these go off at once. I had a lot of help from knowledgable others to fairly safely done this back at the time.

This 606 head is mounted on a vintage FOBA multiple light stand made from old FOBA Combitubes.

Back in 76 when the 606 was introduced I was the Broncolor rep and shipped one to Rose Studio in NYC for them to test. When it arrived one of their assistants placed a ladder next to a head and climbed up to reposition it. While he was looking at it another assistant pushed the test button and all the power went off no more then a foot from his face! Somehow he managed to climb back down the ladder!

Bernice Loui
7-Sep-2021, 11:45
> !_!_!_! <

As some of us share memories of what studio strobe lighting was like back in the view camera film days.


Bernice




When it arrived one of their assistants placed a ladder next to a head and climbed up to reposition it. While he was looking at it another assistant pushed the test button and all the power went off no more then a foot from his face! Somehow he managed to climb back down the ladder!

Daniel Unkefer
8-Sep-2021, 07:18
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50890453593_f8e8e01917_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kx1SRF)Broncolor Pulso Quad Head Never Used (https://flic.kr/p/2kx1SRF) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This is a kinda rare Broncolor Pulso item these days, the old blue Pulso Quad Head. Never used in the original box. This will connect up to four blue Pulso 404 packs (1600ws 120V packs) allowing 6000 watt seconds in one pop.

To get this operational, I would need three more 404 packs, four flash tubes, and a modeling light. Which I very well may get some day.

Bernice Loui
8-Sep-2021, 11:26
Broncolor flash heads can be converted to Elinchrom by re-wiring the power connector.
Elinchrom flash heads can be converted to Broncolor by re-wiring the power connector.

Bernice

MrFujicaman
14-Sep-2021, 19:11
Just think what O. Winston Link could have done with strobes like this!