View Full Version : Wollensack Velostigmat 12" - your judgement please
Hello.
Just got Vellostigmat off ebay.
Please read description:
" (...) Glass is decent but will have a few cleaning sleaks. It's 100 years old, and these were so useful, they got used. A lot. The flange is present. (...)"
"few cleaning sleaks" - what they use? Sandpaper?
The barrel of the front element is bend - it is impossible to remove the name plate - so no good cleaning , no repolishing possible.
Below are pictures of a front element. The rear element is slightly better , not much. Do you think the seller overrated the actual condition? Am I oversensitive?
How would you describe this particular lens?
218439218442218440218441
BrianShaw
7-Aug-2021, 16:27
Return it and get your money back. Not as described.
I agree with Brian.
Send it back for refund. Not as described.
Those are serious scratches, not "cleaning sleaks".
Lachlan 717
7-Aug-2021, 22:40
Someone’s tried to turn this into a soft focus lens?
Someone’s tried to turn this into a soft focus lens?
In fact it IS a SF lens - not "true" SF (like Eidoscope, Perscheid, P&S, Verito etc), but more like Universal Heliar, some Cookes and some petzvals for example. Can be set to sharp or SF setting.
This lens was sold by a well known, I`d say: famous person in SF world. Many on this forum admire his works. I did not know from who I`m buying, realised later. I was glad because I have read lots of good opinions about his transactions here. Buyers routinelly said that he underestimeted condition of his lenses. Maybe he did not want to sell this one here? Ebay nick is (semi) anonimous.
Are those scratches on the surfaces of elements, or some sort of delamination cracks between lens elements?
Are those scratches on the surfaces of elements, or some sort of delamination cracks between lens elements?
Scratches. Can not say how much they degrade the image as i dont have nice lens to compare...
This is not the point. Some ugly lenses gives nice images, the point is "distance" between description and real condition
The lens cell you shared photos of does look badly damaged. Contact the seller and see how that goes. Sorry to see this, good luck.
The lens cell you shared photos of does look badly damaged. Contact the seller and see how that goes. Sorry to see this, good luck.
Thanks. This treat is to get more objective, not personal opinion before contact with the seller...
This is sad as I was looking for 12 or 14in version for a year.
The other common problem... Seller describes his version of a lens as better than the other but he never had both to compare. I'm talking about Perscheid he was selling some time ago...
BrianShaw
8-Aug-2021, 08:33
To most of us that lens would definitely be "not as described"... but have you used the lens yet? Sometimes, shining a light through the back of the lens accentuates "defects" to the point where they look horrendous yet the lens actually performs acceptably. What you show is a very old lens that has, quite obviously, been used a lot and suffered a bit during its lifetime. It is possible, though, that the real impact of the scratching is negligible under most circumstances in which that kind of lens would be used. Sun glare could be a real problem but that is somewhat controllable with a lens shade.
If the price was really good...
Otherwise, it seems that there are others available that might be better options.
To most of us that lens would definitely be "not as described"... but have you used the lens yet? Sometimes, shining a light through the back of the lens accentuates "defects" to the point where they look horrendous yet the lens actually performs acceptably. What you show is a very old lens that has, quite obviously, been used a lot and suffered a bit during its lifetime. It is possible, though, that the real impact of the scratching is negligible under most circumstances in which that kind of lens would be used. Sun glare could be a real problem but that is somewhat controllable with a lens shade.
If the price was really good...
Otherwise, it seems that there are others available that might be better options.
I'm not saying the lens is not usable. I have lots of sf lenses but not velistigmat. I have bought it to learn how it performes compare to other. Now i can say which is the effect of lens itself, which is "added" by its condition.
BrianShaw
8-Aug-2021, 09:54
You are correct, the amount of "surface aging" between the various lenses will be an uncontrolled variable in your assessment.
BrianShaw
8-Aug-2021, 10:22
Scratches. Can not say how much they degrade the image as i dont have nice lens to compare...
This is not the point. Some ugly lenses gives nice images, the point is "distance" between description and real condition
I traced back to the original description and photos. Jim actually described it correctly since the lens condition can be seen in his photos. The condition is, of course, somewhat more obvious when illuminated form behind, which he did not do. You actually got a decent deal. That's as objective as I can be. :)
https://www.ebay.com
Unfortunately, to do comparisons between lenses (and many other things) it is rarely possible with lower-grade/user-grade product. I would consider this lower/user-grade but after seeing the original ad, it is "as described and as depicted". For comparison purposes, I would also be very wary of the fact that it has been "modified". I seem to recall this discussion in the past and probably saw this lens in the past also. The modification always worried me a bit.
Bernice Loui
8-Aug-2021, 10:59
Given the condition of the lens elements on this Velostigmat, how would it be possible to do any sort of proper evaluation or comparison of this lens?
Basket case, return it for a refund,
Bernice
I traced back to the original description and photos. Jim actually described it correctly since the lens condition can be seen in his photos. The condition is, of course, somewhat more obvious when illuminated form behind, which he did not do. You actually got a decent deal. That's as objective as I can be. :)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/154529805302?hash=item23fab1b3f6%3Ag%3AfjcAAOSwWCBg7hVg&nma=true&si=Sky7ya5pXROboB9%252BqPNGXJBrxKs%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
Unfortunately, to do comparisons between lenses (and many other things) it is rarely possible with lower-grade/user-grade product. I would consider this lower/user-grade but after seeing the original ad, it is "as described and as depicted". For comparison purposes, I would also be very wary of the fact that it has been "modified". I seem to recall this discussion in the past and probably saw this lens in the past also. The modification always worried me a bit.
I did not used seller name nor nick, nor link to the auction. Lets keep it.
Modification in this case is very simple - just removing the pin that restricts the front element to one turn only. This lens can be used as "sharp" or "zero" setting to "5" as Wollensak designed it. But it can be unscrewed much more for more softness.
"...described it correctly since the lens condition can be seen in his photos" - Sorry I cant properly judge condition of this glass looking at original photos. I see some dust and several very faint cleaning marks. The word "decent" should mean something. Every one can hide real condition of item he/she is selling by taking photos "properly". I have many much older lenses in better condition, so age of an item is not an excuse.
Jim Noel
8-Aug-2021, 11:42
Yes, drastically overstated. I would describe this as EXTREME cleaning marks.
Looking at the original auction, Jim's description is fair. Keep in mind you paid a beater price for the lens, A nice version would cost double in this market. As far as waiting for a year for one, why? They have be easily available over the last year, I assume your wait was more to do with budget than availability. You got what you paid for.
You really should have taken your concerns up with Jim before starting down this path on the forum.
Not agree - it should be properly described with something like: "the price is lower because of its condition" or similar. Maybe its me, but I try to show item real condition to avoid such situations. The buyer decides if he/she agrees to buy damaged item or not.
"You really should have taken your concerns...." I did not give the name of the seller here...
Of course I waited for good price - with taxes (more than 30%) it would cost much more. Remember - it is simple tessar with one advantage of possibility to unscrew the front element. I have reworked CZJ 250mm and 360mm for soft focus - reversible but the amount of SF requires more work than simply next turn of the lens. I have moded Industar 300mm and in this case the mod is not reversible but the amount of SF can be continuously regulated. From what I can see on GG Tessars and Industars looks nicer than this Vello. SF lenses more often are used against the sun / light - damaged surface will influence its performance.
Jim Noel
8-Aug-2021, 11:48
I have owned one of these lenses for more years than I remember. The shutter gave up the ghost a couple of years ago and I have been looking for a replacement since. There have been no on theweb anywhere that I search that I would have.
Given the condition of the lens elements on this Velostigmat, how would it be possible to do any sort of proper evaluation or comparison of this lens?
Basket case, return it for a refund,
Bernice
Unfortunately not , I`m afraid. The lens us usable of course, but its signature was (I quess) changed.
Given the condition of the lens elements on this Velostigmat, how would it be possible to do any sort of proper evaluation or comparison of this lens?
Basket case, return it for a refund,
Bernice
Unfortunately not , I`m afraid. The lens is usable of course, but its character (I quess) is changed)
I have few lenses that look like that
I call them keepers
Shoot one
I have few lenses that look like that
I call them keepers
Shoot one
Haha. I will! Really! Me to. My most favorite lens is much much worse in terms of condition. In this case I`m bit nervous because I wanted to try how Velostigmats (without additional effects) work.
Jim Graves
8-Aug-2021, 12:53
I agree with the OP ... the lens is not fairly described ... it is clearly not in "lovely condition" and doesn't suffer from "a few cleaning streaks"
... and, if OP decides to resell it ... it will be hard to do with an accurate photo and condition listed.
That being said ... I'm with Tin Can ... shoot it ... including a shot into the sun ... and see if you want to keep it.
I agree with the OP ... the lens is not fairly described ... it is clearly not in "lovely condition" and doesn't suffer from "a few cleaning streaks"
... and, if OP decides to resell it ... it will be hard to do with an accurate photo and condition listed.
That being said ... I'm with Tin Can ... shoot it ... including a shot into the sun ... and see if you want to keep it.
Thanks. Sure i will. I have a hard time when selling lenses. I keep most... The condition of this one makes it is not Vello, but it doesnt mean it could not produce great pisc - just not like decent condition Vello.
BrianShaw
8-Aug-2021, 13:21
“Lovely shape” is like “mint” = advertising words with no real metrics in this arena. If that alone was the condition description…
I actually saved this auction to see what it would go for. I knew that Jim loves a little more "character" in his lenses than I wanted, so I passed. Sorry you weren't happy.
A nice version would cost double in this market.
I've seen this posted a few times and don't get it. I recently got one in a Betax shutter and much nicer condition for $450, which seems about average for most of the "sold" auctions. I see people *asking* for 600, 700 and up, I don't see them selling for that. They're just waiting hoping a whale comes along and really wants one.
I actually saved this auction to see what it would go for. I knew that Jim loves a little more "character" in his lenses than I wanted, so I passed. Sorry you weren't happy.
I've seen this posted a few times and don't get it. I recently got one in a Betax shutter and much nicer condition for $450, which seems about average for most of the "sold" auctions. I see people *asking* for 600, 700 and up, I don't see them selling for that. They're just waiting hoping a whale comes along and really wants one.
I did not know who the seller is untill I have got customs docs. I was sure the lens would be fine as I have seen several posts from buyers of his lenses. They said the condition of their lenses was better than described.
OK. Thanks for your comments.
It looks like those who know the seller are ready to be more gentle in their opinions. I understand this.
I didn't mean to sound like you don't have a reason to be unhappy, I just didn't want to get into the judgement debate and was trying to remain neutral (may not have succeeded there). I can totally understand you not knowing who the seller was and not being satisfied. I was just fortunate that I had connected the dots a while back. In your shoes I would be dissatisfied as well and feel you are justified in returning it.
BrianShaw
8-Aug-2021, 14:28
OK. Thanks for your comments.
It looks like those who know the seller are ready to be more gentle in their opinions. I understand this.
I’m not convinced of this.
In terms of proactiveness, have you contacted the seller; what is his position?
Oren Grad
8-Aug-2021, 14:43
I did not used seller name nor nick, nor link to the auction. Lets keep it.
Yes - any comments about experiences with the seller of this item should be posted in the "Buyer-Seller Advisories" subforum.
I didn't mean to sound like you don't have a reason to be unhappy, I just didn't want to get into the judgement debate and was trying to remain neutral (may not have succeeded there). I can totally understand you not knowing who the seller was and not being satisfied. I was just fortunate that I had connected the dots a while back. In your shoes I would be dissatisfied as well and feel you are justified in returning it.
Thanks. Never mind...
I will keep it as "one of a kind" SF lens :). Maybe I will get nicer one in the future. There are several options to repair it, but I`m not sure it is wort it.
My curiosity how Vello works will have to wait a while....
I have few lenses that look like that
I call them keepers
Shoot one
I second this. Try it and see. You may eventually realize it performs better as a sf lens than a pristine copy with the limit pin intact.
I spent a lot of money (for me) last year on an Hermagis Eidoscope in beautiful cosmetic condition, but with serious delam in the front group. I took it out and shot with it, loved the results. But I had my lathe going and a jar of mdk stripper for another project, so I "fixed" it. It looks beautiful and I doubled the value of the lens. But I hate it now. Completely unsuited to panoramic landscapes (just like my Velo II). Went back to shooting uncorked pillbox landscape lenses.
Bernice Loui
8-Aug-2021, 22:47
File a buyer claim with eBay. This is part of the eBay buyer protection plan aka "insurance".
Bernice
I second this. Try it and see. You may eventually realize it performs better as a sf lens than a pristine copy with the limit pin intact.
I spent a lot of money (for me) last year on an Hermagis Eidoscope in beautiful cosmetic condition, but with serious delam in the front group. I took it out and shot with it, loved the results. But I had my lathe going and a jar of mdk stripper for another project, so I "fixed" it. It looks beautiful and I doubled the value of the lens. But I hate it now. Completely unsuited to panoramic landscapes (just like my Velo II). Went back to shooting uncorked pillbox landscape lenses.
Yes, Eidoscopes are nice for portraits and stills. Never used them for landscapes. I should try. Are you sure you aligned the front group correctly? on a optical bench? Maybe the problem is here - two foci close to each other and lots of softness but slightly doubled... It is far not enough that both lenses are aligned physically. The possible error is than enlarged by rear cell. Maybe it worth to check it and recement it again if needed.
I do have some damaged lenses that I love. Among them is the really ugly Perscheid that I love for portraits.
Ron (Netherlands)
9-Aug-2021, 02:23
I would only buy a lens online if I get good pictures of the glass - however that does not help always > last year an Austrian seller did hide a damaged part at the far edge of the lens in a darkened picture on Ebay and sold me what I thought was an almost perfect lens. He stated that the chip on the side of the lens was due to my handling. However I was able to enlighten that same picture which showed clearly that the lens was already damaged before the sale and .... got a refund from paypal....
Advice: as soon as you see something is wrong get in contact with the seller, and if he does not respond; open a dispute with paypal....and keep hold of the original advertisement and pictures
I would only buy a lens online if I get good pictures of the glass - however that does not help always > last year an Austrian seller did hide a damaged part at the far edge of the lens in a darkened picture on Ebay and sold me what I thought was an almost perfect lens. He stated that the chip on the side of the lens was due to my handling. However I was able to enlighten that same picture which showed clearly that the lens was already damaged before the sale and .... got a refund from paypal....
Advice: as soon as you see something is wrong get in contact with the seller, and if he does not respond; open a dispute with paypal....and keep hold of the original advertisement and pictures
Yes. The world is not perfect...
For 10 or 20 bucks... :-)
Steve K
A few years back I bought the cells for a 15 1/2" Velostigmat II on eBay. The cells have some deep scratches and no shutter, I expect someone figured the shutter was more valuable than the cells at some point. I got them cheaply and later had a barrel made by a machinist (that wasn't cheap). Despite the gouges the lens works well (maybe it works better for soft focus;)) and I'm glad I got the barrel made. Try the lens and see how it goes and if you can't make it work out, you can always look for refund or recourse from the seller or eBay.
A few years back I bought the cells for a 15 1/2" Velostigmat II on eBay. The cells have some deep scratches and no shutter, I expect someone figured the shutter was more valuable than the cells at some point. I got them cheaply and later had a barrel made by a machinist (that wasn't cheap). Despite the gouges the lens works well (maybe it works better for soft focus;)) and I'm glad I got the barrel made. Try the lens and see how it goes and if you can't make it work out, you can always look for refund or recourse from the seller or eBay.
Good for you! I bought CZJ tessar and made it sf lens. This shortened the FL to ca 300 mm f3.7.
Mark Sawyer
9-Aug-2021, 12:59
As a general rule, those sorts of scratches soften the contrast, not the focus. Expect lower contrast negatives with more open but muddier shadow detail. Resolution and spherical aberration (the "soft focus" effect) will be unaffected. (Sale price will be affected.)
Andrzej
10-Aug-2021, 02:58
As a general rule, those sorts of scratches soften the contrast, not the focus. Expect lower contrast negatives with more open but muddier shadow detail. Resolution and spherical aberration (the "soft focus" effect) will be unaffected. (Sale price will be affected.)
Yes Mark, I know that. I think I can handle this. Thank you.
paulbarden
10-Aug-2021, 07:48
As a general rule, those sorts of scratches soften the contrast, not the focus. Expect lower contrast negatives with more open but muddier shadow detail. Resolution and spherical aberration (the "soft focus" effect) will be unaffected. (Sale price will be affected.)
I concur. I have a Schneider 105mm Xenotar that has a badly damaged front element (looks like someone tried to scrub the coating off with a Brillo pad), and yet it still makes good photographs - loss of contrast and overall softening of values, but still as sharp as the day it was born. Its almost like a Verito. Check it out: https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51230594157_74f972a004_3k.jpg
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