B&W Filter Selection

[AdamD]

This may be in the wrong forum section because this is a bit of a gear question, but the results of the gear is all about technique. So maybe we're good....

I recently picked up a Rodenstock 115mm that uses 82mm threads. I'm now converting my B&W filters from 67mm to 82mm. My current collection consists of a #8 Yellow, #15 Dark Yellow and #25 Red. I want to use Heliopan and have already picked up the #8 and #25, BUT they discontinued the #15.

Here's what I can say about these filters....the #8 is one that I use when I don't have a lot of sky otherwise it's just not strong enough to cut the blue. The #25 Red is just pretty dramatic and to me more specific to obtaining a certain mood, but not always practical. As a result the #15 is my most used filter, BUT, I also find that it's often just not enough when cutting the blue UV and I'd like a little bit more.

So the question is, does that mean I should look to a #16 or the #22?

Heliopan makes the #22 but not the #16 (in 82mm threads). B+W makes the #16.

So to achieve somewhere in-between the #15 and #25, would you suggest the #16 or #22. Please don't say both!! That's where I'd like to go, but don't think I need to go.

You might be asking, what do I shoot!!

Pretty much desert landscape. Lots of sky with clouds and green and brown. TONS of texture. The desert can be very busy as you know and contrast is important.

Over to you. Many thanks!!

[Bob Salomon]

Heliopan still lists the 15 filter in both coated and MC versions on their price list at Heliopan.de. Have you asked the factory or only the distributor?

[r.e.]

This is the Heliopan link for the #15: https://heliopan.com/products/dark-yellow-filter-15?variant=12657397432383

B&H says it's "discontinued" in 82mm, but it has it in stock in other sizes.

[AdamD]

Wow that's interesting.

I ordered the #8, #15 and #25 through B&H and all were backordered. The #8 and #25 eventually we're delivered but the #15 kept sliding.... eventually B&H refunded the cost and said the manufacturer has discontinued that type. Adorama doesn't even show the #15 anymore.

But, even then....I still think I was to go with a bit stronger of a filter than the #15. Based on some other reading I'm thinking the #16 is the way to go, but I was hoping someone had some experience with both and might offer some insight.

[Bob Salomon]

This is the Heliopan link for the #15: https://heliopan.com/products/dark-yellow-filter-15?variant=12657397432383

B&H says it's "discontinued" in 82mm, but it has it in stock in other sizes.

Then send an email to Margot at Heliopan in Germany and ask her.

[tgtaylor]

Tiffen has an 82mm Deep Yellow glass filter and it's currently in stock at B&H for just $36.95. https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/54121-REG/Tiffen_82DY15_82mm_Deep_Yellow_15.html/reviews I bought the 4" version from B&H about a year ago.

Thomas

[Drew Wiley]

I find a 22 deep orange to be especially useful. Heliopan has them, but pricey in 82mm. You get what you pay for. And instead of deep yellow, you could use a light orange Hoya G; they offer excellent multicoated ones at reasonable pricing. Another option would be Hoya's light yellow-green XO filter; I find these more useful than any yellow per se.

[AdamD]

I find a 22 deep orange to be especially useful. Heliopan has them, but pricey in 82mm. You get what you pay for. And instead of deep yellow, you could use a light orange Hoya G; they offer excellent multicoated ones at reasonable pricing. Another option would be Hoya's light yellow-green XO filter; I find these more useful than any yellow per se.

Ok so you're a fan of the #22 then. Do you have experience with the #16?

Also do you have experience with the #25? If so, do you find enough separation between the #22 and #25? What mean is do they look different enough from each other or does the #22 just look like a less agressive version of the #25. Would you say the #22 is closer to a #15 or #16 in how it adjusts for blue sky OR more similar to a #25?

I clearly don't mind paying for what I get. I dropped over $400 in just three Heliopan filters. I'm happy to get the #22 Heliopan, but I just want to be sure I wouldn't rather have the #16. In which case I'll go with the B+W.

Thx!!

[Drew Wiley]

I haven't used anything directly equivalent to a 16 in the past forty years. Just too close to a basic yellow. I only rarely use the Hoya light orange, even less often any yellow filter. I do use a light yellow-green sometimes. Deep orange 22 very very often, also 25 red very often. With most pan films, a light yellow 8 requires a one EV filter factor, a 22 orange 2 EV, a 25 red 3 EV. That's a nice even spacing. Another indispensable one always in my kit is a medium green Hoya X1, which differs between films, with a 2 EV factor with TMax films, but 2-1/2 EV for most Ilford pan films. But everyone has their preferences. I just like to simplify things as much as possible, especially since I often carry correction filters for color film too. One can overthink all this.

But since yellow filters are relatively abundant, yet 22 deep orange is down to only one maker at this point, I'd latch ahold of the latter while you still can. In a pinch you could use a Tiffen 24A, which is about halfway between a 24A and 25, but not of the same premium quality as Heliopan, B&W, or Hoya. Tiffens aren't coated, so collect condensation easily and need cleaning quite often. I personally keep spares of 22 in my most commonly used diameters, namely 67mm and 52mm. But I need 82mm only for two specific lenses, so haven't purchased spares of that size.

Desert photography can be different from more common landscape needs. Since most desert contains a lot of reddish or ochre hues, these will look bleached out if you choose, yellow, orange, or red filters. Often the best choice under such circumstances to deeper those hues as well as produce more contrast in the sky is a medium green filter. It might be quite difficult to find either a Heliopan or B&W on of those. The Hoya X1 is common and excellent. But since forested areas as often adjacent to desert in the Southwest, you will need 22 and 25 filters along too. Yellow has a minimal effect with modern films and present atmospheric conditions, so I never personally bother with yellow filters on those trips.

[CreationBear]

One can overthink all this.

I'll take that risk and ask you how you carry your filters in the field. I'm currently using filter caps with the idea that the "stack" is the most efficient use of space, but given the blood/mud/sweat/snot that accumulates over the course of a day I could imagine having to manipulate more than one filter at a time might be a risky proposition.

[Drew Wiley]

Risky, yep. I learned that the hard way. Stacking threaded filters risks them getting jammed together tight, as well as accumulating more dust and sweat while fiddling around with them. I gave up on that method many moons ago. Now I keep them in individual appropriately sized round plastic containers, then rubber band those together and put them in a ziplok bag, then into an appropriate pack pouch. Hoya filters once came standard in these kind of round containers, but now unfortunately in flat square pegboard stye plastic, which is OK but bigger.

Although I have a huge selection of filters in storage, I try to carry no more than three black and white contrast filters, and three color correction filters, on any long trip. Too many just get in the way
and slow down the shooting process. Early on, I was shooting with a Sinar in Titcomb Basin in Wyoming, and only had along two contrast filters and a single lens, a 210. The sun was rapidly setting. Nearby was a nice fellow shooting a Tachi, who had brought along seven lenses and nearly two dozen different gel filters. He spent so much time trying to decide what to use, fidgeting around, and chasing loose filters in the wind, that by the time he was finally set up, it was already dark and too late. Keep it simple.

[BrianShaw]

“Keep it simple”.

There has never been advise any better than this!

“ But since yellow filters are relatively abundant, yet 22 deep orange is down to only one maker at this point, I'd latch ahold of the latter while you still can. ”

This is excellent advice also!

I put my filters in filter wallets, by size and sometimes by type. Types are contrast filters and soft focus and related portraiture filters. Grab and go.

[AdamD]

I think I'm going to go with the Heliopan 22.

I personally carry them in my backpack inside their own pouch.

[r.e.]

I think I'm going to go with the Heliopan 22.

There are two versions of that filter - a standard coated version and a fancier multicoated version - and it's unclear which version U.S. resellers, who are supplied by the Mac Group, are selling. You can't tell from the SKU, because resellers like B&H are not using Heliopan's SKUs. They are using SKUs that I assume the Mac Group made up.

The version available in the U.S. is being sold at the same price as the multicoated version in Europe, there being a significant price difference between the versions. The question is, which version is being sold at that price? Also, why aren't both versions available here?

The more expensive version should have SH-PMC on the rim. The B&H photo doesn't show the rim.

[AdamD]

There are two versions of that filter - a standard coated version and a fancier multicoated version - and it's unclear which version U.S. resellers, who are supplied by the Mac Group, are selling. You can't tell from the SKU, because resellers like B&H are not using Heliopan's SKUs. They are using SKUs that I assume the Mac Group made up.

The version available in the U.S. is being sold at the same price as the multicoated version in Europe, there being a significant price difference between the versions. The question is, which version is being sold at that price? Also, why aren't both versions available here?

The more expensive version should have SH-PMC on the rim. The B&H photo doesn't show the rim.

This time I plan to use Adorama.

[CreationBear]

[QUOTE=Drew Wiley;1609733]Risky, yep. I learned that the hard way.QUOTE]

Good to know, thanks!

[AdamD]

Update:

I ordered the #22 from Adorama. I have no idea what I'm going to get MC or not. I just hope they can fulfill the order in the next 4 weeks.

I live in the Phoenix area and it's too hot to shoot LF right now, but in a month or so I'll want to start shooting again!

[r.e.]

Update:

I ordered the #22 from Adorama. I have no idea what I'm going to get MC or not. I just hope they can fulfill the order in the next 4 weeks.

If the Adorama photograph shows what you are getting, it looks like Adorama is selling the standard version of the filter at the price that European vendors want for the SH-PMC version. In 82mm, the SH-PMC version sells in Europe for about US$35 more than the standard version, ex-VAT. I think that if what Adorama is selling is the SH-PMC version, the description would say so. As far as I can tell, U.S. resellers don't even offer the SH-PMC version as an option, although they do for a number of other Heliopan filters.

Given the history of the Mac Group on prices, this does not surprise me. The Mac Group was also the distributor for Mamiya film cameras. When I purchased a Mamiya 7II, I discovered that I could purchase a return air ticket to Europe, and spend a couple of nights in a decent hotel, for the difference in the European and U.S. price. Indeed, I purchased my Mamiya 7II from Robert White (https://www.robertwhite.co.uk) in the U.K. and had them ship it to New York. Saved a lot of money.

This photo shows the ring on the SH-PMC version of Heliopan's #22 orange filter. I can't download the interactive version of the photo, which let's one "travel" around the ring, but the words "Made in Germany" come right after the code SH-PMC:

218475


This is the Adorama photo. It matches European vendor site photos of the standard version. If you go to Adorama's site and "travel" around the photo, the rim does not contain the code SH-PMC:

218476

I'm considering the purchase of this filter and a red #25, which raises the same issue, myself. B&H and Adorama are local to me. Before buying from either of them, I will want to know exactly what they are selling. The failure to use Heliopan's own SKUs, and the photos above, don't give me a lot of confidence in what's going on here. This may be a situation where I choose to use a vendor from elsewhere, as I did last year when I purchased Heliopan's UV/IR Cut. It helps that vendors from elsewhere also tend to have Heliopan filters in stock, or can get them with a short wait. I'm not big on catering to the Mac Group's arrogance as a distributor.

[r.e.]

Update:

I ordered the #22 from Adorama... I just hope they can fulfill the order in the next 4 weeks.

As I understand it, you want 82mm. In a rare event, this morning B&H's site shows the filter in stock. No need to wait four weeks, if you're OK with the version of the filter and price. If you call B&H to find out which version this is, it would be great if you could pass along the answer. I'd love to know by personal message if you don't want to write a post.

According to the screen capture below, the filter isn't in the store. That just means that it's at the warehouse in New Jersey, which is where it would be shipped from to you anyway.

[BrianShaw]

My last purchase from Adorama was shipped from that NJ warehouse. They "shipped" (provided tracking number) next workday. Watching the tracking was fascinating. It took several weeks and the package spent a day at each of numerous small towns as it traveled by train to me.

[Peter De Smidt]

Adam, have you tried a yellow/green filter? It cuts the sky without darkening foliage a ton.

[r.e.]

My last purchase from Adorama was shipped from that NJ warehouse.

Small clarification... B&H and Adorama both have warehouses in New Jersey. They don't share one. B&H's warehouse used to be in Brooklyn, but they moved it to New Jersey a few years ago.

[BrianShaw]

Small clarification... B&H and Adorama both have warehouses in New Jersey. They don't share one. B&H's warehouse used to be in Brooklyn, but they moved it to New Jersey a few years ago.

Correct. I looked on Goggle Earth and that area has TONS of warehouses.. many, many internet sales folks ship from there. The other place with lots and lots of warehouses is Hebron KY, just across the river from Cincinnati.

EDIT.. ahh... Adam bought from Adorama; you showed an ad from B&H... I missed that detail. Sorry if I confused anyone.

[AdamD]

If the Adorama photograph shows what you are getting, it looks like Adorama is selling the standard version of the filter at the price that European vendors want for the SH-PMC version. In 82mm, the SH-PMC version sells in Europe for about US$35 more than the standard version, ex-VAT. I think that if what Adorama is selling is the SH-PMC version, the description would say so. As far as I can tell, U.S. resellers don't even offer the SH-PMC version as an option, although they do for a number of other Heliopan filters.

Given the history of the Mac Group on prices, this does not surprise me. The Mac Group was also the distributor for Mamiya film cameras. When I purchased a Mamiya 7II, I discovered that I could purchase a return air ticket to Europe, and spend a couple of nights in a decent hotel, for the difference in the European and U.S. price. Indeed, I purchased my Mamiya 7II from Robert White (https://www.robertwhite.co.uk) in the U.K. and had them ship it to New York. Saved a lot of money.

This photo shows the ring on the SH-PMC version of Heliopan's #22 orange filter. I can't download the interactive version of the photo, which let's one "travel" around the ring, but the words "Made in Germany" come right after the code SH-PMC:

218475


This is the Adorama photo. It matches European vendor site photos of the standard version. If you go to Adorama's site and "travel" around the photo, the rim does not contain the code SH-PMC:

218476

I'm considering the purchase of this filter and a red #25, which raises the same issue, myself. B&H and Adorama are local to me. Before buying from either of them, I will want to know exactly what they are selling. The failure to use Heliopan's own SKUs, and the photos above, don't give me a lot of confidence in what's going on here. This may be a situation where I choose to use a vendor from elsewhere, as I did last year when I purchased Heliopan's UV/IR Cut. It helps that vendors from elsewhere also tend to have Heliopan filters in stock, or can get them with a short wait. I'm not big on catering to the Mac Group's arrogance as a distributor.

I have the Red #25 from B&H if you want I'll photo the crap out of it for. Just need to find a camera somewhere around here....

[AdamD]

And no I have not tried a yellow/green. I should as I shoot a lot of green colors in the desert and I think that would be helpful.

I was thinking about a straight up green #11. But I looked on Adorama and they show an #11 as yellow/green. Is that right?

[AdamD]

Ok forget that.....I just bought a used Tiffen #11 on ebay.

I still think I'll want an 82mm #15 or #16, but if this is my biggest problem I'm doing pretty good.

I really need the summer to be over so I can shoot again!!!!

[r.e.]

I have the Red #25 from B&H if you want I'll photo the crap out of it for. Just need to find a camera somewhere around here....

Thanks. B&H wants $120 for the #25, same as the #22. No need for a photo. I'd just like to know whether the filter it's selling has SH-PMC written on the ring or not. If it doesn't, it makes more financial sense for me to order from Europe, and I'd have the option of the SH-PMC filter if I want it.

I've asked the European dealer that I use to tell me what its inventory is, and I should get an answer when they open in the morning.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm unaware of any Heliopan multicoated b&w contrast filters. There make a number multicoated skylight, UV, and clear filters for color photography or general lens protection. And B&W, not Heliopan, once offered two versions of 22 orange, single-coat vs multicoated. Is that the source of the confusion? No big deal. You want a lens shade regardless.

Now as far as Southwestern desert usage goes, you ideally want along a fairly strong green because you'll likely encounter a lot of reddish sandstone and clay color that will look too light and paste-like in tone if you use a yellow, orange, or red filter. An 11 or X0 light yellow-green still contains too much yellow, though might be useful for other kinds of shots. But you'll need to go to either Hoya X1 or Tiffen 58 for a medium dark green filter.

[r.e.]

I'm unaware of any Heliopan multicoated b&w contrast filters. There are some multicoated skylight, UV, and clear filters. And B&W made two versions of 22, single-coat vs multicoated. Is that the source of confusion?

What confusion? I've already posted a photo of a Heliopan SH-PMC #22 Orange in post #18. The photo is from a European dealer site. European dealers sell standard and SH-PMC versions of these filters at significantly different prices. Whatever B&H and Adorama are selling, the price is the same as the European price, ex-VAT, of the SH-PMC version. If the photo on Adorama's site accurately shows what it's selling, it's selling the standard version at the much higher SH-PMC price.

[Drew Wiley]

First of all, Heliopan's official US marketing website doesn't list any such thing. If it's on the German site, I can't find it. Nor does any dealer here offer them. And in the linked example of one, it's ridiculously labeled as a "digital" filter; but some Japanese manufacturers are doing the same marketing nonsense. So could you please be more specific about likely Euro dealers who actually carry these and are willing to ship small items to the US ? - just for general forum info. I'm not personally worried about it.

[r.e.]

First of all, Heliopan's official US marketing website doesn't list any such thing. Nor does any dealer here offer them. And in the linked example of one, it's ridiculously labeled as a "digital" filter; but some Japanese manufacturers are doing the same marketing nonsense. So could you please be more specific about likely Euro dealers willing to ship small items to the US ?

I'd rather not get into a detailed discussion about Heliopan distribution and sources in other countries in a public post on a photography website. If I make a purchase, I'll be happy to send you a personal message. Re the use of the word "Digital"... I can tell you for a fact that Heliopan is using the word on some of its filters. I don't see what difference it makes to this discussion. If one wants to know about the Heliopan US site and who controls it, and why US resellers aren't selling certain Heliopan filters, no doubt the Mac Group can answer those questions.

For me, the more immediate question is whether the SH-PMC filters are worth the premium. Do you have a view on that question?

[Bob Salomon]

First of all, Heliopan's official US marketing website doesn't list any such thing. If it's on the German site, I can't find it. Nor does any dealer here offer them. And in the linked example of one, it's ridiculously labeled as a "digital" filter; but some Japanese manufacturers are doing the same marketing nonsense. So could you please be more specific about likely Euro dealers who actually carry these and are willing to ship small items to the US ? - just for general forum info. I'm not personally worried about it.

Just go to the German factory web site and download their price list. I believe both versions are on either page 8 or 15.

[r.e.]

Just go to the German factory web site and download their price list. I believe both versions are on either page 8 or 15.

If anybody here knows the answer to this question, you do. What's the practical difference between the standard and SH-PMC Heliopan filters? You touched briefly on SH-PMC filters in a post ten years ago, but didn't get into a comparison of the two Heliopan lines. It would be great to get your view.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I know a lot about distribution contracts. Thankfully I'm retired from all that. But in an analogous mode to the specific question involved, I do have both single-coated and multicoated versions of the B&W deep orange 22 filter.
Either resists dirt and condensation well (which uncoated glass filters don't). With a view camera, I always have an adjustable shade attached, so really, no practical difference there. Where it might make a difference to me is when shooting my Fuji 6X9 RF or any small camera application involving a wide-angle lens, since wides are difficult to efficiently shade without a bulky compendium. A multicoated filter might provide a slight edge. But I never tempt fate by shooting into the sun with wide angle lenses on small cameras; that makes it simple.

Color photography is different. I tend to enlarge color shots to a greater degree, and it's easy to get multicoated filters for color film applications.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - linking onto the German site just kicks you back onto the US distributor one, and no PDF comes up under the price list link. They're probably trying to protect the contracted US distributor in that respect. That kind of scenario is pretty common these days.

[r.e.]

Bob - linking onto the German site just kicks you back onto the US distributor one, and no PDF comes up under the price list link.

The screen capture below is from Fotoimpex, which is the first hit on a Google search for "heliopan retailer europe".

Fotoimpex is a German retailer that presumably knows what Heliopan makes and sells. It is based in Berlin. It is not the European retailer that I occasionally do business with, which offers the same two versions of Heliopan's #22 Orange. Based on previous dealings, I think my dealer will be able to get either version fairly quickly, assuming that they aren't already in stock. I expect to hear back from my retailer tomorrow morning.


218500

[Drew Wiley]

Thanks. I'll check it out later.

[AdamD]

Thanks. B&H wants $120 for the #25, same as the #22. No need for a photo. I'd just like to know whether the filter it's selling has SH-PMC written on the ring or not. If it doesn't, it makes more financial sense for me to order from Europe, and I'd have the option of the SH-PMC filter if I want it.

I've asked the European dealer that I use to tell me what its inventory is, and I should get an answer when they open in the morning.

It does not have those letters ....

Mine just says Heliopan Digital ES82 8x -3 Made in Germany

[r.e.]

It does not have those letters ....

Mine just says Heliopan Digital ES82 8x -3 Made in Germany

Thanks very much Adam. That confirms what I figured is the situation.

Drew might note that your filter rim says "Heliopan Digital".

[MrFujicaman]

This may be in the wrong forum section because this is a bit of a gear question, but the results of the gear is all about technique. So maybe we're good....

I recently picked up a Rodenstock 115mm that uses 82mm threads. I'm now converting my B&W filters from 67mm to 82mm. My current collection consists of a #8 Yellow, #15 Dark Yellow and #25 Red. I want to use Heliopan and have already picked up the #8 and #25, BUT they discontinued the #15.

Here's what I can say about these filters....the #8 is one that I use when I don't have a lot of sky otherwise it's just not strong enough to cut the blue. The #25 Red is just pretty dramatic and to me more specific to obtaining a certain mood, but not always practical. As a result the #15 is my most used filter, BUT, I also find that it's often just not enough when cutting the blue UV and I'd like a little bit more.

So the question is, does that mean I should look to a #16 or the #22?

Heliopan makes the #22 but not the #16 (in 82mm threads). B+W makes the #16.

So to achieve somewhere in-between the #15 and #25, would you suggest the #16 or #22. Please don't say both!! That's where I'd like to go, but don't think I need to go.

You might be asking, what do I shoot!!

Pretty much desert landscape. Lots of sky with clouds and green and brown. TONS of texture. The desert can be very busy as you know and contrast is important.

Over to you. Many thanks!!

I just checked Ebay for "82mm filter" they list several 82mm orange filters-as they typically are, prices are all over the place. Cheapest was I think, $65?

[r.e.]

The screen capture below is from Fotoimpex, which is the first hit on a Google search for "heliopan retailer europe".

Fotoimpex is a German retailer that presumably knows what Heliopan makes and sells. It is based in Berlin. It is not the European retailer that I occasionally do business with, which offers the same two versions of Heliopan's #22 Orange. Based on previous dealings, I think my dealer will be able to get either version fairly quickly, assuming that they aren't already in stock. I expect to hear back from my retailer tomorrow morning.


218500

Woke up this morning to confirmation from my European dealer that it has the standard and SH-PMC versions of Heliopan #22 orange and #25 red in stock. My query was for 82mm, which I'm standardised on for filters.

The dealer's price on the standard versions that B&H and Adorama are apparently selling, shipped, is attractive. The Heliopan Digital UV/IR Cut that I ordered from this dealer last year was delivered to New York in two days.

Historically, I've had scans made of negatives and done this kind of manipulation in Photoshop or Capture One. However, I'm starting a project where I want to do 8x10 contact prints, making these filters useful.

Just have to decide which version I want.

[Bob Salomon]

If anybody here knows the answer to this question, you do. What's the practical difference between the standard and SH-PMC Heliopan filters? You touched briefly on SH-PMC filters in a post ten years ago, but didn't get into a comparison of the two Heliopan lines. It would be great to get your view.
Far less flare with the SH-PMC coating. Better color saturation in color and digital.

[Bob Salomon]

Thanks very much Adam. That confirms what I figured is the situation.

Drew might note that your filter rim says "Heliopan Digital".

Heliopan made a brochure that lists all of their filters that have a digital application, that is the only brochure that you get in the USA from the Mac Group. They then added the word “Digital” to the rim of those filters. Only the Digital IR filter is digital only.
All their other filters are available but may not have the word “digital” on the rim.

[r.e.]

Heliopan made a brochure that lists all of their filters that have a digital application, that is the only brochure that you get in the USA from the Mac Group. They then added the word “Digital” to the rim of those filters. Only the Digital IR filter is digital only.
All their other filters are available but may not have the word “digital” on the rim.

Yes, I assume that "Heliopan Digital" is used for the UV/IR Cut because some sensors are still sensitive to infrared. An example is Blackmagic cinema cameras, one of which I use. This is why Panavision, and its subsidiary Lee Filters, offer a line of neutral density filters, called Pro Glass IRND, that incorporate IR cut. The idea is that if one is going to cut visible light, it's a good idea to cut infrared as well. As you no doubt know, this is not an imaginary problem. There are a number of videos on YouTube and Vimeo that show infrared messing up colours in digital footage.

The screen capture below shows a Heliopan chart for its UV/IR Cut. Expensive filter, but a lot easier than dealing with infrared contamination :)

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[r.e.]

Far less flare with the SH-PMC coating. Better color saturation in color and digital.

Much appreciated.

[Drew Wiley]

All good to know. Like I already stated, flare is a non-issue for me in view camera work due to excellent shading. But for Med Format normal or wide angle lens work, looking into an MC version 22 next time might be beneficial. Almost all my other contrast filters are MC already, as are nearly all my color film filters. I don't shoot digital at all except for a dedicated copy stand camera in the lab.

[r.e.]

I'd suggest that people take their time acquiring these filters for B&W, at least if they care about price. Since yesterday, I've been able to acquire three in 82mm. Prices including shipping:

B+W F-Pro MRC Yellow #8: B&H, open box, $70 ($90 new)
Hoya HMC Yellow-Green X0: eBay, new old stock, $36 ($70.35 new)
Hoya HMC Green X1: eBay, new old stock, $29.50 ($57 new)

Currently looking out for red #25. There seem to be a lot of these around, but I haven't come across 82mm in the last 24 hours. I've identified a vendor of both versions of Heliopan's orange #22, but I'll see whether one comes up in the next week or so.

[Alan Klein]

Small clarification... B&H and Adorama both have warehouses in New Jersey. They don't share one. B&H's warehouse used to be in Brooklyn, but they moved it to New Jersey a few years ago.

I live in NJ. Sometimes I get a B&H order delivered the next day.

[Drew Wiley]

I obviously live clear over here on the West Coast, and get B&H orders within two days, three at the most. But all the big air freight and parcel distribution warehouses are in this general vicinity. That's faster service than I get from LA within the same State (though we norCal types tend to think of anything south of the Tehachapi Range as an entirely different country, while Bakersfield immediately north of the Techachapis is actually a territorial outpost of west Texas, replete with the oil wells, and not part of California proper either).

[AdamD]

I'd suggest that people take their time acquiring these filters for B&W, at least if they care about price. Since yesterday, I've been able to acquire three in 82mm. Prices including shipping:

B+W F-Pro MRC Yellow #8: B&H, open box, $70 ($90 new)
Hoya HMC Yellow-Green X0: eBay, new old stock, $36 ($70.35 new)
Hoya HMC Green X1: eBay, new old stock, $29.50 ($57 new)

Currently looking out for red #25. There seem to be a lot of these around, but I haven't come across 82mm in the last 24 hours. I've identified a vendor of both versions of Heliopan's orange #22, but I'll see whether one comes up in the next week or so.

Just curious, what lens is in your kit driving the need for 82mm monster filters?

I have the 115mm Rodenstock and that's kinda my main go to lens. I flank that with a 150mm and 90mm. So my kit is all wide these days. Next up is something longer like a 240 or 300 or a 360, but in all cases they will always have smaller filters sizes.

[r.e.]

Just curious, what lens is in your kit driving the need for 82mm monster filters?

I have the 115mm Rodenstock and that's kinda my main go to lens. I flank that with a 150mm and 90mm. So my kit is all wide these days. Next up is something longer like a 240 or 300 or a 360, but in all cases they will always have smaller filters sizes.

I use both the Lee100 System and round filters, standardised at 82mm on the latter because I think that it's a good general choice. I think that it's easy to get into a situation where you take an optimistic view on standardising, only to realise later that you have to do it all over again.

On large format lenses, I'm generally at no more than 67mm, but I do have a Nikkor-W f/6.5 360mm that takes 95mm filters.

[Drew Wiley]

I use 82's only in relation to a couple of P67 lenses, the 75 and 300. All my current LF lenses are standardized to either 67mm or 52mm (plus a few step adapters). And the balance of my MF lenses use 67 too, which is nice.

[r.e.]

I use 82's only in relation to a couple of P67 lenses, the 75 and 300. All my current LF lenses are standardized to either 67mm or 52mm (plus a few step adapters). And the balance of my MF lenses use 67 too, which is nice.

Yes. The main factor in my decision to go to 82mm was that I got involved in video, where 82mm is pretty standard. I don't want to have to use Lee100 or a matte box all the time.

There's a new approach to filters, via Kickstarter, called Revoring. It may go a long way to addressing this issue. Here's what Philip Bloom, who knows what he's talking about, said about Revoring during the Kickstarter campaign. This video was paid for by Revoring, but there are others that aren't, all positive.

It's kind of surprising that nobody came up with this idea before.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alWnyf1-w5o&t=116s

[r.e.]

I'd suggest that people take their time acquiring these filters for B&W, at least if they care about price. Since yesterday, I've been able to acquire three in 82mm. Prices including shipping:

B+W F-Pro MRC Yellow #8: B&H, open box, $70 ($90 new)
Hoya HMC Yellow-Green X0: eBay, new old stock, $36 ($70.35 new)
Hoya HMC Green X1: eBay, new old stock, $29.50 ($57 new)

Currently looking out for red #25. There seem to be a lot of these around, but I haven't come across 82mm in the last 24 hours. I've identified a vendor of both versions of Heliopan's orange #22, but I'll see whether one comes up in the next week or so.

A caveat on this. I've done enough reading on counterfeit filters that I won't buy a filter via Amazon and in most cases via eBay. In the case of the Hoya filters above, the vendor is reliable and the odds that someone would go to the trouble of making counterfeit green 82mm filters strike me as low. Nevertheless, I'll have a good look at the filters and their new old stock packaging when they arrive on Friday. The problem with Amazon is that legitimate vendors were apparently selling filters from inventory that Amazon commingled. I don't know if this commingling is still happening, but I don't plan to test it. My personal experience is that Amazon prices on this kind of thing aren't attractive anyway.

[Bob Salomon]

A caveat on this. I've done enough reading on counterfeit filters that I won't buy a filter via Amazon and in most cases via eBay. In the case of the Hoya filters above, the vendor is reliable and the odds that someone would go to the trouble of making counterfeit green 82mm filters strike me as low. Nevertheless, I'll have a good look at the filters and their new old stock packaging when they arrive on Friday. The problem with Amazon is that legitimate vendors were apparently selling filters from inventory that Amazon commingled. I don't know if this commingling is still happening, but I don't plan to test it. My personal experience is that Amazon prices on this kind of thing aren't attractive anyway.

Our experience, as a vendor on Amazon, for some of our products is that we ship to an Amazon warehouse a bundled pallet of product so they could pick from it when they or one of there dealers received an order for that specific product. They never “commingled our products. What do you mean by commingled anyway?

[r.e.]

Our experience, as a vendor on Amazon, for some of our products is that we ship to an Amazon warehouse a bundled pallet of product so they could pick from it when they or one of there dealers received an order for that specific product. They never “commingled our products. What do you mean by commingled anyway?

I mean a common inventory pool consisting of product from more than one supplier.

[Bob Salomon]

I mean a common inventory pool consisting of product from more than one supplier.

If you are talking about non branded items, like a lens cleaning product sold under the Amazon brand name you could be right. Although it would make no sense for Amazon as they keep very strict and complete sales statistics that include returns, defects, packaging problems, etc.. so they can return problems to vendors and chargeback to vendors. Too many problems and you are no longer a vendor. They also have penalty charges fo vendor failures.
If you are talking about name brand products, they only pull from stocks of that specific product or brand.

[r.e.]

If you are talking about non branded items, like a lens cleaning product sold under the Amazon brand name you could be right. Although it would make no sense for Amazon as they keep very strict and complete sales statistics that include returns, defects, packaging problems, etc.. so they can return problems to vendors and chargeback to vendors. Too many problems and you are no longer a vendor. They also have penalty charges fo vendor failures.
If you are talking about name brand products, they only pull from stocks of that specific product or brand.

I'm talking about an inventory of a specific product that mixes product from more than one supplier. European internet sources, based on Amazon Europe practices, say that this resulted in the sale via Amazon of product, including filters, that was counterfeit. I have no personal knowledge about this, and I don't know if it reflects current Amazon practice. However, it's one reason, along with broader concerns about Amazon and counterfeiting, why I'm careful about Amazon purchases. As I said, I don't think that Amazon prices on this kind of product are attractive anyway. I'd just as soon buy from B&H or another specialist photo dealer direct.

[Bob Salomon]

I'm talking about an inventory of a specific product that mixes product from more than one supplier. European internet sources, based on Amazon Europe practices, say that this resulted in the sale via Amazon of product, including filters, that was counterfeit. I have no personal knowledge about this, and I don't know if it reflects current Amazon practice. However, it's one reason, along with broader concerns about Amazon and counterfeiting, why I'm careful about Amazon purchases. As I said, I don't think that Amazon prices on this kind of product are attractive anyway. I'd just as soon buy from B&H or another specialist photo dealer direct.

Why counterfeit? Who who do that and why?
Maybe what you mean to say is gray market or parallel imports. Those are not counterfeit but are product obtained by bypassing proper channels.

[r.e.]

Why counterfeit? Who who do that and why?
Maybe what you mean to say is gray market or parallel imports. Those are not counterfeit but are product obtained by bypassing proper channels.

Bob, I'm not completely stupid. I know what the difference is between fake goods and gray/parallel import of goods. I've provided two reasons why I'm not keen to purchase filters via Amazon. Others may have a different view. There doesn't appear be much point in pursuing this further.

[Alan Klein]

I had film I ordered from Amazon. The expiry date was in 7 months. I returned them and now will only buy from B&H or Kumar if I need Velvia 50 in 4x5 that comes directly from Japan.

I also received Duracell labelled batteries in a Duracell blister pack. The Amazon web page selling the batteries had Duracell listed as the seller. The expiry date of the batteries received was months earlier. And stranger than that, the expiry date on the sealed package holding the batteries was three years earlier, a totally different date. Explain that one!

Another time, when we bought a new LG refrigerator, I checked Amazon prices for the air and water filters. They ranged from $13 to over $50. Would I really be getting activated charcoal if I got the $13 product from China? So I made a deal directly with LG where they ship me filters every six months for a set price of around $47 (corrected) I think I'm paying. Does anyone really believe the standards of the products you can buy on Amazon? I don't think Amazon checks and watches what goes out their doors. They're just too big to micromanage their stock effectively.

Since then, I started to order directly from manufacturers on a lot of products. It may cost a bit more especially with shipping costs, but I feel more secure that I'm getting the real deal. Also, by calling the manufacturer personally to order, I often get extra discounts not on Amazon and coupons for future purchases. Plus if there's a problem with the product down the road, I feel I get better support from the manufacturer because I bought it directly from them.

[Drew Wiley]

Bob - Amazon is plagued with counterfeit goods, and they do damn little to police it. But in the case of things like brand-name camera filters, which are such a minor niche, there just might not be a enough incentive for someone to outright counterfeit it to begin with. Chinese knockoffs are abundant, but not necessarily counterfeit. When I worked in distribution, I had to constantly combat actual counterfeiting, with fake brand name labels, even brand logo stamping on metal goods, the whole nine yards. The intermixture mostly occurred at the Port of entry, with real and fake getting intermingled there to disguise the ruse. They even had counterfeit security seals for the cargo containers themselves. Most of that nonsense went to big box rather than industrial distributors, because that's where they could get away with it. Other fake equipment was routinely sold at flea markets, or out of car trunks, just like fake Rolex watches.

In the case of Amazon, there's the double complication of things being shipped out of their own warehouses, versus their giant octopus-like arms extending into all kinds of linked dealers, some of whom are quite unethical. In the latter case, if a product label looks like it was printed on an ordinary office printer, or contains misspelled words, well ... you don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure that out. One of my favorite examples were too-good-to-be-true jackhammers being sold new at the flea market for around $350 apiece. They actually looked pretty good. On the side, there was an office printer label which stated, BOSCH Made in Japan, and on the end of the same machine, MAKITA, made in Germany. They worked for about 3 hrs and were unrepairable. But as the saying goes, there's a sucker born every day.

[Tin Can]

I use Prime often

I seldom have a problem

B&H is also used too often

BUT B&H has more inventory, at better prices with faster delivery in better boxes packed well

They get my photo biz

I do miss NYC rapid fire telephone ordering of old

Bark it out NOW, like a Deli

[r.e.]

...in the case of things like brand-name camera filters, which are such a minor niche, there just might not be a enough incentive for someone to outright counterfeit it to begin with.

Do a Google search for "B+W filters counterfeit". You're in for a surprise. There are even discussions about fake B+W filters purchased on Amazon. There are also whole YouTube videos on the problem.

Schneider's website has a page dedicated to warning about fakes and ascertaining the authenticity of B+W filters: https://schneiderkreuznach.com/en/authenticity-check

Haven't checked other makers, but I won't be surprised if they have a page too.

My suspicion, and it's only that, is that the counterfeiting mostly affects high volume filters like protection and UV filters. As I said in post #54, I think that the odds that someone counterfeited the 82mm Hoya X0 and X1 filters that I just purchased via eBay are low.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh, I'm quite aware of smaller impact fakes. It's up to dealers to distinguish their own legitimacy by knowing which is which. But I had to compete with millions and millions of dollars of fakes appearing on the US market at a time, even entire fake dealerships, plus the two biggest box outlets one can think of sometimes being in deliberate cahoots, criminally. That was FBI territory. About all they could do is home in on a few of the most egregious actors and make an example out of them. Six to twelve years in Federal prison is the kind of outcome where word spreads quickly. But everyone also knows that the odds of officially getting caught and punished are relatively small.

The chronic problem at Amazon is well known, and is inevitable given the sheer volume of goods they deal with. They're under pressure to clean it up, but also know how to simply delay. I knew how to successfully compete against even Amazon. We dominated the regional repair and warranty business as well, whether power tools, premium door locks, or major window brands, so were atop the whole quality control pile from Port to end user, and deservedly earned widespread customer trust, even top recognition nationally. Those of us who were involved are now all either retired or deceased, but the core business remains, albeit scaled back quite a bit. I was there yesterday picking up a critical German accessory in stock nowhere else in the county.

But it's not Amazon Prime per se I'd be especially wary of, as much as how far and wide they license their search engine and billing convenience, which involves many many independent businesses, some wholly legitimate, and others of slippery character. So whenever possible, I personally prefer to detour them and buy from a reputable independent source instead, like B&H. The local camera store carries private-label filters, but otherwise, they're conspicuously Hoya and of excellent quality, just not a wide selection. Then across town there's a filter liquidator with all kinds of legit odds and ends.

[Tin Can]

B&H just notified my film is in stock

and a good price!

[Alan Klein]

I use Prime often

I seldom have a problem

B&H is also used too often

BUT B&H has more inventory, at better prices with faster delivery in better boxes packed well

They get my photo biz

I do miss NYC rapid fire telephone ordering of old

Bark it out NOW, like a Deli

You might not have a problem. But you also don't know if you have a knockoff.

[Drew Wiley]

If one is experienced, the image quality itself will betray a fake. And in most cases, so will the print type on the label. It will also be apparent when you need to clean the filter.

[Michael R]

By then it’s too late to do anything about it though.

One of the reasons I have never bought a thing on stupid Amazon.

Sometimes you gets what you pays for.


If one is experienced, the image quality itself will betray a fake. And in most cases, so will the print type on the label. It will also be apparent when you need to clean the filter.

[Drew Wiley]

Oh it's never too late. Just repurpose a bum filter. Like obsolete computer discs, they're convenient for skeet shooting, or playing dog frisbee.

[r.e.]

I'd suggest that people take their time acquiring these filters for B&W, at least if they care about price. Since yesterday, I've been able to acquire three in 82mm. Prices including shipping:

B+W F-Pro MRC Yellow #8: B&H, open box, $70 ($90 new)
Hoya HMC Yellow-Green X0: eBay, new old stock, $36 ($70.35 new)
Hoya HMC Green X1: eBay, new old stock, $29.50 ($57 new)

I've decided to see how I get along with these before getting any deeper into B&W contrast filters. Based on internet examples and playing around in Capture One, I'm doubtful that I'd use a red #25, and I suspect that I might find orange #16 more useful than orange #22. I'm also wary of the exposure handicap with the stronger filters. Although makers have cut back on what they offer (for example, B+W no longer makes most of the B&W contrast filters shown in a B+W brochure that I have), it looks like these filters are easy to find second-hand at attractive prices. The market/demand for them is probably too small to make them worth counterfeiting.

[Bernice Loui]

Given up using B&W contrast altering filters for B&W decades ago. Decided they were not it as they alter the contrast rendition into B&W of the entire scene. They can be absolutely effective in some images made, overall they did not fit what the image goals were and became.

That said, #25 red is strong and in some ways over bearing as it can darken a blue sky lots, at times too much. The #16 orange achieves similar with less dominance. Green can be used to lighten greenery, Yellow tends to be the overall contrast helper.

Back in the color B&W filter days, initial set of filters were Tiffen series 9 with a Sinar in front of the lens holder. Series 9 filter was large enough to work with the majority of lenses used. No threading makes filter changes and set up easier. In time this gave way to 75mm Sinar polymer filters, then a set of Sinar 103mm glass color filters.. Never liked the threaded in filters as they don't work on vintage lenses like Kodak Ektar, Dagor and etc... With the passage of time, the only filters used these days for B&W, polarizer and neutral density.

Should pass these on to another home where they can be used again.


Bernice



I've decided to see how I get along with these before getting any deeper into B&W contrast filters. Based on internet examples and playing around in Capture One, I'm doubtful that I'd use a red #25, and I suspect that I might find orange #16 more useful than orange #22. I'm also wary of the exposure handicap with the stronger filters. Although makers have cut back on what they offer (for example, B+W no longer makes most of the B&W contrast filters shown in a B+W brochure that I have), it looks like these filters are easy to find second-hand at attractive prices. The market/demand for them is probably too small to make them worth counterfeiting.

[Drew Wiley]

Bernice - pan film with its depressed green sensitivity automatically gives a false rendition or feel for the natural gray scale. And films differs between one another in blue and red sensitivity too, so there is nothing tonality neutral about any black and white shot just because you don't use contrast filters. I don't use them every shot. But it all depends. I even used 29 filters for Bergger 200 to take advantage of its exceptionally long straight line. A 25 is wimpy compared to that, but is what I generally carry as my deepest filter in that direction of the color wheel. What people call a blue sky is one region would be called smog in another. And skies aren't as blue as they used to be.

The road going right past our place climbed very rapidly and topped out over 10,000 feet, and the peaks in the background were in the 13,000 and 14,000 ft range. When my older brother got involved in stock photography he took a color shot up there and entered it into a juried nature photography contest in LA. They accused him of tinting the sky excessively blue and evicted him from the competition. Well, there was no trick filter evidence, it was just a chromogenic rather than DT print, and Photoshop didn't exist yet. How could he fake that? But apparently, those LA judges, who had probably never even been in the mountains, presumed that "blue" sky equates to brown grime.

In terms of "overbearing" in a black and white shot, it just depends on the exposure. I routinely take exposures using a 25 red which are fully buoyant in the shadow as well through the entire scale. That's what thoughtful exposure and development allows one to do. Years ago, another fellow into mountain photography condemned me for even carrying a red, because it would block out the shadows at high altitude. Well, maybe in his workflow or method printing it would, but not in mine. These filters are all just tools, and as such, what works quite well for one person might not work as well for another. Fortunately, we have a wide choice of films, filters, and developers, etc. But unfortunately, apparently a number of worn-out stereotypes too. And all those filter brand brochures are based on stereotypes. That's fine in an entry level-sense, but hardly the end of the story.

[AdamD]

I forgot what I originally posted this thread about....

I find it crazy talk that people would not use contrast filters on B&W film. I've never been able to manipulate my B&W images in post without their help. In fact, the right filter on the right image makes post editing a snap. That post editing is the part of the image taking process I like the least. Well save carrying a 30 pound backpack up a hill kinda sucks, but other than that, I prefer a workflow that is light on Photoshop.