Sinar F2 Vs Sinar Norma (4x5)

[Times2]

Hi,

In Which-field-camera-for-usage-with-90mm-lens (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164383-Which-field-camera-for-usage-with-90mm-lens/page3) I asked about which 4x5 camera should I buy as my first camera and Sinar F2 and Sinar Norma ended up as winners (cheap, beginner-friendly, lots of movements).

As I found out that Sinar F2 is more modern I thought it will be an easy cut, in terms of deciding which to buy. But upon further reading about Norma, I'm somewhat torn between the two.
It seems that Norma is more sturdy and almost equal to F2 when it comes to weight but on the other side it is older and occurs more rarely on eBay.
As I'm planning on using 6x7 back, I'm not sure if there will be a problem with attaching one to Norma.

If it matters, cameras I'm looking are Norma (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255040598249) and F2 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/174848902809)

If you have experience with one or both cameras please share with me :)
Any advice is very much appreciated!

P.S: I'm aware of this thread Sinar F2 vs Norma 8x10 (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67742-Sinar-F2-vs-Norma-for-8x10-field-use) but as it is in regard to different format/size same conclusions may not apply

[neil poulsen]

I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2. Of course, there will be disagreement on this. Also, personal preference weighs into a decision like this. Different people have differing preferences.

The Norma is a "precision" camera. But, thay can be finicky. It' depends on the camera and how well it's been adjusted. It sure is an impressive looking camera, having been machined and all. But after making some customizations described in the link below, I enjoyed using and prefer the Sinar F. It just feels better to me.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sinar-f-4x5-as-a-viable-field-camera.172997/

With respect to the above, I like having an F2 front standard that has independently controlled shift and swing.

But with either an F or a Norma, you have the advantage of a full featured camera system with many accessories.

[Greg]

Have been using Sinars since the mid 1970s. All around favorite has always been the Norma, but for inside studio work the P made efficient shooting just a bit easier. For a time had and used a 4x5 F in the field, but in the end I much preferred the Norma for its more solid feel. For me, anytime that I used a lens wider than a 120mm, the first thing that I did was to replace the normal bellows with a WA bellows. As to your mentioning "regard to different format/size same conclusions may not apply", I think your conclusion is dead on. The 8x10 Norma is a whole different camera to use. I actually preferred it to an 8x10 P. Acquiring a Norma in good working condition is the key. Replacement parts are out there, but one usually has to buy a working standard to get the part that you are looking for. Bubble levels are easy to acquire and replace. Beware of cheap rip offs that are of sub quality and not all that accurate... unfortunately you probably won't find that out until you have them in your hand - been there, done that. There are a few guides to fixing and/or overhauling Normas on the Internet. They are very much worth making hard copies of, and when using them making notes on their pages. Using bargain tools, like from Harbor Freight, is an invitation for breaking or messing up parts. Personally recommend Little Machine Shop and Micro Mark. I'm sure other forum members can add other places to get good quality tools from. Also personally prefer hand tools vs cordless tools. Good luck.

[sharktooth]

Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch.

[Bernice Loui]

There is ZERO "classic" with or about a Sinar Norma, F, F+, F1, F2, P, P2, X and all their variants, they are modular designs that simply work with ease of modularity to adapt the Sinar to virtually any view camera image making need. Sinar remains THE view camera image makers tool. This is based on using the Sinar system since the mid-1980's to this day. More than a few of the Sinar bits were purchased used in the mid-1980's and they are used to this day.

As for repair, it is difficult to bust a Sinar. It demands a LOT of physical abuse and five to six figures of sheet film exposures to begin wearing out a Sinar. Given the view camera is modular, if a front or rear standard is broken, simply interchange that problem standard with another, then back to making images again. Know the standards from Norma-F(all variants)-P-P2 are interchangeable. This means one can customize a Sinar in ways to meet the needs of the individual image maker.

Quick look on eBay https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=sinar+bellows&_sop=15
notes plenty of Sinar bellows, both standard and bag 4x5 for about $40 USD and up. Horseman L series bellows work identical on Sinar.

As for cost, a GOOD used 4x5 Sinar is about the same as a brand new "Intrepid and Standard Camera" neither could hope to match the stability, precision, accuracy, ease of use, durability, reliability, modularity and wide variety of accessories with ease of availability on the used market.

Camera aside, the potential for vastly greater frustration for an image maker venturing into image making their first time is a whacky and unpredictable shutter more so than the camera as it is essentially a light-tight box that is flexi in the center.

With all that verbiage presented...

Sinar Norma is a better camera in construction than the F2. Difficulty with purchasing any Norma, they are now decades old. Unless the Norma to be purchased has received a proper Clean-Lube-Adjust, it will likely have lubricants that have become clay seriously impairing it's function. This is a given due to time and aging. But, it is not that difficult to Clean-Lube-Adjust a Norma as the quality of construction, design and materials are no different than a high quality Swiss made time piece. Once a proper Clean-Lube-Adjust has been done, a Norma will last and produce as many sheets of film needed for many more decades.

Sinar F2 has less of the lubricants turned to clay problem as it has high quality plastic gears and guides. These are mostly self-lubricating and more resistant to dirt intrusion. Sinar P and P2 are similar in this way.

Given your needs to use a 90mm for interior images, a bag bellows is essentially mandatory due to the needs of using camera movements both front and back. It is also likely a lens of much shorter focal length will be needed. This image making needs dictates the current fashionable new view cameras like the Intrepid-Standard Camera-Chamonix and similar as they are light weight field folders and do not meet the demands of interior view camera image making using very short lens focal lengths with combined front and rear camera movements.

As for learning how to "view camera" it is easier to learn on a monorail than a field folder due to the physical presentation and access of controls of the view camera. Back in the days of formal Photography view camera education the most common student view camera was a monorail camera, not a field folder.. why?


BTW, 5x7 Sinar Norma lives in a Pelican FAA carry-on approved roller case with four lenses (115mm Grandagon, 165mm Angulon, 10" or 12" Xenar or Kodak C. Ektar, ~one of the four barrel lenses gets picked depending on what is needed~, 16 1/2" or 19" APO artar), bag & standard bellows, Sinar shutter, light meter, 7x loupe, tape measure, dark cloth, cable release, six 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders.


Bernice



Your "first" 4x5 camera should be one that actually works properly. These esoteric discussions about the perfect classic camera are not very useful for practical purposes. Unless you're extremely lucky, an old camera is likely to be full of pinholes in the bellows, and will have some minor to major mechanical issues. If you know what to look for, and how to repair it, then fine and dandy. If not, you could be in for a very expensive and frustrating experience.

Sinars were extremely popular in their day, but that day has long gone. If you go to the B&H website and type in a search for Sinar, you'll get 10 items, all of them third party adapters. Good luck finding a new Sinar bellows. Sure, you can get a new bellows from England, or China, but you might have to put it on the frames yourself, or send the old frames to the supplier. Expect to pay at least $300, and wait a few months, in order to get someone else to do the whole thing. If you're handy, you could also build a bellows yourself, or spend time learning and doing your own repairs. That's great if you like to do it, but not so great if you don't.

If you're a beginner anxious to get started in large format, then there are two reasonable options. One option is to buy something new. Intrepid and Standard Cameras are two inexpensive versions, and there are a few expensive options from Chamonix and others. A second option is to buy a used outfit from a "reliable and trustworthy" seller who can guarantee that the camera, lens, and accessories are in proper working order. Like for everything, there's no free lunch.

[Bernice Loui]

If you're planning to use a 6x7 or similar roll film back on a view camera, know the lens focal length is not the same as 4x5 or 6x9 or similar for a given visual perspective. Example, 90mm "normal lens" for 6x7 would be something like a 150mm lens focal length for 4x5. To use an 90mm lens with a 6x7 roll film back on a view camera demands compressing the camera's bellows and standards enough to bring the image into focus. If any camera movements are needed then applied, this enforces more demands on the camera's ability to accommodate_accept compression of front_rear standards and bellows while allowing full camera movements front and rear. Once a wide angle lens is needed for the image on 6x7, greater compressibility of the front_rear standards and bellows is required. Example, 38mm Super Angulon XL is used on a view camera with a 6x7 roll film back will be a serious challenge to any view camera without a recessed lens board. Even using the 38mm SAXL with a recessed lens board on most view cameras can be a very serious limitation. These image making demands points towards the need and reality of why a GOOD monorail camera (Sinar) will serve your image making needs far better than a light weight field folder.

Sinar P2 front, Sinar Norma 4x5 rear with the rail clamp reversed. Not how close the front to rear standards can be compressed.
217896

Same with bag bellows.
217897

Same with Norma front standard in place of the Sinar P2 front standard.
217899

Getting the rear element of the wide angle lens this close to the rear standard is an absolute MUST if you're planning to use any roll film back on a view camera as this decided the ability to use wide angle-short focal length lenses with a roll film back. Lens is a 65mm f4.5 Fujinon SWD. Other wide angle lenses will be similar to identical.
217898

Few monorail cameras can achieve this with this degree of ease and availability of bag bellows and related at the cost of used Sinar at this time. Light weight field folder.. not gonna happen. This includes Linhof Technika.


Second major consideration for 6x6, 6x7, 6x12 roll film backs on a view camera, which type of roll film back? Two basic styles of roll film backs are commonly available. One is the slide into the 4x5 film holder style. This type of roll film back works mostly identical to a 4x5 film holder. It simply slides into the 4x5 film holder area no different than a film holder, has a dark slide. It's operation is just like a 4x5 film holder except there is a roll film advance lever or knob and frame counter. Sinar made a "Zoom Vario" 120 roll film back that does 6x7 to 6x12 and the image format can be changed per frame. There were two versions of this Sinar Vario zoom back, the first versions had mechanical issues resulting in a Sinar re-call to fix. These are more common on the used market and tend to sell for less as most folks are aware of the problems with version one. Second version is the one to own due to the improvements made. Sinar also made a series of fixed format roll film backs that are not variable.
https://galerie-photo.com/manuels/mode-emploi-sinar-zoom-001.pdf

Toyo, Linhof, and others made 120 roll film backs for 4x5 view cameras in this similar slide in style.


The other style of 120 roll film back fits in place of the ground glass holder. These are klunky to use. After set up and focusing on the GG, the GG holder frame is removed then the 120 roll film holder is installed where the GG frame-holder once was to make the image on the 120 roll film back.
http://mercurycamera.com/backs/guide-to-graflok-45-backs/


Bernice





Hi,

In [URL="https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164383-Which-field-camera-for-usage-with-90mm-lens/page3"]

As I'm planning on using 6x7 back, I'm not sure if there will be a problem with attaching one to Norma.

[Peter De Smidt]

I'd decide based on condition and included accessories. Having bought my first Sinar in 1992, I agree with Bernice. I currently have an Intrepid 8x10 and a Sinar P2 system. I'd much rather use the Sinar, whereas I'd much rather carry the Intrepid.

That said, there are other good options. In particular I prefer an Arca F to a Sinar F or F2. Arcas will be more expensive, and there will be less parts available used. The company does seem to be doing ok, and they regularly come out with new products, e.g. a plethora of tripod heads. Horseman are terrific cameras, and many parts of their monorail cameras are interchangeable with Sinar. Toyo made a bunch of great cameras, and they're still in business. Linhof monorails can be quite reasonably priced... It's really field specific cameras where there's a bunch of recent excellent examples from fairly new companies, such as Chamonix. If cost isn't figured in, my field camera would be an Arca F Classic. I'm too invested in other systems to be willing to make that change, though.

Bernice, though, is certainly right the Sinar was the main studio view camera in America at the end of the 20th Century.

[Bernice Loui]

This is a Horseman rotating roll film back on a Sinar Norma. These Horseman rotating roll film backs fits the standard 2x3 Graphic Lock style backs that are made by Horseman and many others. These ease the use of a roll film back on a view camera by allowing the view camera used in the way a view camera could-should. Once the GG image is acceptable, rotate the roll film back into image recording position, remove the roll film back dark slide, make the exposure, dark slide back in, advance the 120 roll film back to the next frame. Rotate again to create the next image per the ground glass. Used one of these on a Sinar for decades. There is interference between the Horseman rotary back in the portrait image position if a F or P rear standard is used.

217901

217902

These Horseman rotary film backs are easily available on eBay for just over $100 USD, Same with the 6x7 or 6x9 Horseman 120 roll film backs.


Bernice



Hi,

As I'm planning on using 6x7 back, I'm not sure if there will be a problem with attaching one to Norma.

If it matters, cameras I'm looking are Norma (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255040598249) and F2 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/174848902809)

If you have experience with one or both cameras please share with me :)
Any advice is very much appreciated!

P.S: I'm aware of this thread Sinar F2 vs Norma 8x10 (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67742-Sinar-F2-vs-Norma-for-8x10-field-use) but as it is in regard to different format/size same conclusions may not apply







As I'm planning on using 6x7 back, I'm not sure if there will be a problem with attaching one to Norma.

[Bob Salomon]

I'd decide based on condition and included accessories. Having bought my first Sinar in 1992, I agree with Bernice. I currently have an Intrepid 8x10 and a Sinar P2 system. I'd much rather use the Sinar, whereas I'd much rather carry the Intrepid.

That said, there are other good options. In particular I prefer an Arca F to a Sinar F or F2. Arcas will be more expensive, and there will be less parts available used. The company does seem to be doing ok, and they regularly come out with new products, e.g. a plethora of tripod heads. Horseman are terrific cameras, and many parts of their monorail cameras are interchangeable with Sinar. Toyo made a bunch of great cameras, and they're still in business. Linhof monorails can be quite reasonably priced... It's really field specific cameras where there's a bunch of recent excellent examples from fairly new companies, such as Chamonix. If cost isn't figured in, my field camera would be an Arca F Classic. I'm too invested in other systems to be willing to make that change, though.

Bernice, though, is certainly right the Sinar was the main studio view camera in America at the end of the 20th Century.

Speaking as a Sinar rep for EPOI in the mid 70s and then as the LInhof rep afterward till 4 years ago there are multiple reasons why Sinar was so predominant starting in the mid 70s in North America. And the main reason was marketing. We were given outfits to “loan” to companies, leading photographers, influencers, schools, etc. to make Sinar into the dominant choice. Many of those cameras were never returned and became payment in kind.

After all, once the shot was on film it made difference what camera took the shot. On film all of the results are the same.

[Times2]

@All,

Thanks for responding in a very easy-to-understand way.:)
I have been looking at intrepid but to me, they were a no-go as they seem too flimsy and me being a novice I want to eliminate as much uncertainty as I can from my shooting process.
I also considered Toyo/Linhof/Horseman but decided against them as they would require recessed boards(and bag bellows) and they would still have various drawbacks when coupled with 90mm lens (105mm on 6x7 would be a bit too close).
I initially thought of using slide-in roll back (like this Linhof one (https://www.ebay.com/itm/312940357684)) but that rotary back seems pretty good.

It remains for me to check with my local film-camera-repair-guru if can perform CLA for Norma.

[Peter De Smidt]

Sounds like a good plan.

[Luis-F-S]

I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2.

++1!!less complicated and a lot easier to find used.

[Jeff Keller]

Doesn't the Horseman rotary film back push the film plane even further back from the lens than a simple roll film holder designed for a 4x5 camera?

I've only seen pictures of them but it seemed that trying to use a very wide-angle lens (47mm) would be very difficult or impossible.

I imagined an old Arca Swiss 2x3 monorail would be the best way to go wide-angle with a roll film back ...

jeff

[Bernice Loui]

Horseman roll film rotary back does work on the 4x5 Sinar P rear in both Landscape and Portrait position. The HRFB must be oriented in this direction.

Ground glass in Landscape viewing position.
217957

Roll film back in Landscape position.
217958


Ground glass in Portrait viewing position.
217959

Roll film back in Portrait position. Observe the note on the ground glass viewer frame. If the Horseman rotary back does not have this, highly recommended Do NOT purchase as these are difficult to find alone.
217960

Identical applies to Sinar P2 as it is functionally identical to the P rear in this case.


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Horseman rotary roll film back works in the Landscape position on the Sinar F2, F, F1, F+ and ...
217962

Does NOT work in the Portrait position due to interference with the lower area of the F rear standard.
217963

Other brands (Toyo, Arca Swiss, Sinar and...) made sliding film backs. Been there, tried these.. to discover a tendency for light leaks :(


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

Except the F, F+, F1, F2 4x5 rear standard has a bump together issues with the Horseman rotary roll film back. See post# 15.


Bernice




Originally Posted by neil poulsen, "I've had a lot of experience with both cameras, and I would go with the Sinar F2."

++1!!less complicated and a lot easier to find used.

[Bernice Loui]

Arca Swiss and Sinar were related in the beginnings of Sinar. Think the story goes, Koch needed to get the initial design built, It was the Oswald family that took on the Sinar design, produced it until Sinar gained the ability to produce this design.

Circa 70's Arca Swiss and Sinar were similar in their offerings. By the later 80's Sinar had a LOT more accessories and capabilities offered as part of the Sinar system. Many of these add-ons were made due to customer request and customer needs. Stuff like the adjustable curtain lens shade, TTL on the GG metering, Mechanical and "digital" shutter, Expolux system, color correction filter system and much more far beyond any of the Arca Swiss offerings.

If one were to consider only the camera, indeed they are similar and the film image results given identical lens would be much identical within limits. Until ya get to extreme bellows extension needed for long focal length lenses:

217968

217969


Could this be done on an Arca Swiss or other monorail camera?


Bernice




Speaking as a Sinar rep for EPOI in the mid 70s and then as the LInhof rep afterward till 4 years ago there are multiple reasons why Sinar was so predominant starting in the mid 70s in North America. And the main reason was marketing. We were given outfits to “loan” to companies, leading photographers, influencers, schools, etc. to make Sinar into the dominant choice. Many of those cameras were never returned and became payment in kind.

After all, once the shot was on film it made difference what camera took the shot. On film all of the results are the same.

[Times2]

How important are bubble levels on Norma? Can they be easily replaced, for some reason I think that could potentially be extremely hard? Starting from finding the correct bubble levels, figuring out how to position them, even applying the correct amount of glue seems tricky? The camera I want to buy has dried out ones.

[Bob Salomon]

Arca Swiss and Sinar were related in the beginnings of Sinar. Think the story goes, Koch needed to get the initial design built, It was the Oswald family that took on the Sinar design, produced it until Sinar gained the ability to produce this design.

Circa 70's Arca Swiss and Sinar were similar in their offerings. By the later 80's Sinar had a LOT more accessories and capabilities offered as part of the Sinar system. Many of these add-ons were made due to customer request and customer needs. Stuff like the adjustable curtain lens shade, TTL on the GG metering, Mechanical and "digital" shutter, Expolux system, color correction filter system and much more far beyond any of the Arca Swiss offerings.

If one were to consider only the camera, indeed they are similar and the film image results given identical lens would be much identical within limits. Until ya get to extreme bellows extension needed for long focal length lenses:

217968

217969


Could this be done on an Arca Swiss or other monorail camera?


Bernice

Yes, LInhof could and do that long extension. Sold a system to Dixie cup to do 1:1 on 810 with a 420mm or 480 with extension left over.

[Greg]

How important are bubble levels on Norma? Can they be easily replaced, for some reason I think that could potentially be extremely hard? Starting from finding the correct bubble levels, figuring out how to position them, even applying the correct amount of glue seems tricky? The camera I want to buy has dried out ones.

With a good level to accurately confirm their alignment, easy to replace. Just beware of cheap rip-offs that are not accurate (not usable) or the holes for the screws will not align with the holes on the Sinar (doable/fixable). http://www.glennview.com/ has them but they are not cheap... I've seen them up on auction for under $10.00. "You get what you pay for" a good adage to apply here. I once bought a broken standard for little money just to reuse the two OEM bubble levels. Two of the OEM bubble levels on my Norma are "cloudy" from age but still work fine.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Could this be done on an Arca Swiss ...

Of course, within the Arca Swiss system, be it a pre-1982 Oschwald system or the current F-line system, you can connect as many rails together as you wish, throught the telescopic rail system. Rail elements of about 1 metre long are listed on the current catalogue.
And you can add any intermediate format frames and bellows ;-) (https://www.arca-swiss-magasin.com/contents/media/systeme-de-rail-arca-swiss.jpg)

[Times2]

With a good level to accurately confirm their alignment, easy to replace. Just beware of cheap rip-offs that are not accurate (not usable) or the holes for the screws will not align with the holes on the Sinar (doable/fixable). http://www.glennview.com/ has them but they are not cheap... I've seen them up on auction for under $10.00. "You get what you pay for" a good adage to apply here. I once bought a broken standard for little money just to reuse the two OEM bubble levels. Two of the OEM bubble levels on my Norma are "cloudy" from age but still work fine.

Yikes, 50$ for a bubble level :D

[Daniel Unkefer]

I have three 4x5 Normas. I have four 5x7 Normas. I have one 8x10 Norma. It's cheaper to buy complete 4x5 front or rear standards or complete 4x5 Normas when you need parts. I have been equipping my studio man cave. I bought a few parts from the repair dept but that option is long gone.

30+ years ago I bought my first 4x5 Norma for $1500 from Columbus Camera Group. It has always served me well and I soon realized that stuff could be had reasonably, and if you have the catalog, then it becomes like collecting anything. Just wait for a particular item to come along.

Julius Shulman, Balthazar Korab, Ezra Stoller, Heidrich Blessing, Reinhardt Wolf, they all used Norma for obvious reasons. Best camera for location Architectural. Not too heavy to hike with, ask me how I know :) When I get to where I am going, I'm glad the Norma is with me.

I started with Sinar Alpina, hated that camera! Went to F+ and not solid enough for my tastes overall. Too much plastic! Then I discovered the Norma.

A good repairperson can make any Norma good as new. They can be busted and I have examples! Philip Morgan has the guide that I use and there is a lot you can do to tune it up without taking it -completely- apart. Plenty of Normas work OK just as they are, depends on how they were used and stored.

[Scott Davis]

5x7 Sinar Norma lives in a Pelican FAA carry-on approved roller case with four lenses (115mm Grandagon, 165mm Angulon, 10" or 12" Xenar or Kodak C. Ektar, ~one of the four barrel lenses gets picked depending on what is needed~, 16 1/2" or 19" APO artar), bag & standard bellows, Sinar shutter, light meter, 7x loupe, tape measure, dark cloth, cable release, six 5x7 or 13x18cm film holders.
Bernice

Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895945652_5f3741ced7_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2j28Li3) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49895120703_a5af853a54_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M)Sinar Norma Price List July 1966 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2j24x4M) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

"Construction Unit Design" allows you to build whatever you need to do a particular job

[rdenney]

I align myself fully with Bernice’s comments.

The first camera I used with a 90mm lens of enough coverage to allow movements was a Cambo SC (in Calumet trim). I needed a recessed lens board and a bag bellows, and it was inconvenient to use. But it worked, and this was back when a Sinar was a fantasy camera for me. A 65mm lens is less workable, but I didn’t have a 65mm lens capable of movements (a 65/5.6 Super Angulon—not the f/8 version which barely covers 4x5) until I had a camera that could mount it reasonably for use in the real world.

And that was a Sinar F. No recessed lens boards required. I have fat fingers, and I hate recessed lens boards with some passion.

The real choice here is monorail or folder? That depends on the use case. The only advantage a folder has is portability (in terms of stored compactness, and to a lesser extent in terms of weight). If I was backpacking with a camera, I’d prefer a folding field camera and would simply limit my lenses and composition possibilities to what worked.

For interiors, though, the constraints are external and the equipment has to have the features that serve within those constraints. A good modular monorail is that camera.

The Norma was the first practical monorail. If bought for cheap, a Norma will require some restoration but it’s worth the effort. (Restoring some cameras will have you chasing your tail and wondering when it will end.)

But a later Sinar will also function beautifully and is probably the best balance between first-rate mechanics and price. And they are still restorable and worth the effort. Arca and Linhof are in the same category, but without the wide availability of inexpensive used bits that all interchange, and they are more expensive to begin with because of their boutique status.

I am biased—I own an F/F2 and a P. My F2 is a mashup of several cameras bought at junk prices and assembled into a camera that had my preferred features. I prefer the F back, because it’s thinner in that it doesn’t have the slot for the meter probe. But I prefer the F2 front that separates lateral shift and swing locking levers.

My F lives in the Sinar Expert flight-style case to which I added luggage wheels and a handle. I pulled it behind me across Nantucket with its wavy brick streets and crowds. It worked in that scenario. But it’s no backpacking camera. It could be made much more compact, however.

My P lives in its original fiberboard Expert case, and I stay closer to the car with it.

For architectural interiors, I would require easy use of a 65mm lens, bag bellows that allow easy shifting with a 65mm lens (for Sinar, that’s the Wide Angle Bellows 2), and access to lens controls and visibility of settings in dim conditions (read: that 65mm lens on a flat lens board).

Using a rollfilm format imposes similar requirements on the use of shorter lenses. I have used my F with a 6x12 back and a 47mm Super Angulon—surely a combination few 4x5 field folders could support.

Rick “there is no single best camera for every use case” Denney

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51181099188_2017bd17d2_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kYGvEC)360 Symmar Norma Auto Iris Pair (https://flic.kr/p/2kYGvEC) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51335874852_08e19bd55c_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdnM5y)Second Fastest Sinar Norma 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdnM5y) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

There is an automatic shutter in the back and a shutter in the front interconnected by coiled metal cables. Very quick to operate I can tell you

This setup is in the Norma catalog. 5x7 Rear Standard with 4x5 Adapter stepdown adds a lot of rigidity. Usable in high winds as tested by me

Brand new never used modern FOBA ALFAE tripod, this is one of the best of the best. Lightweight yet brick solid

[Bernice Loui]

Do not purchase there. ~Seller Profit Center Warning~

The replacement levels are 7mm diameter x 16mm long. Available from Geier and Bluhm as part# 3-0507 in NYC for $1.39 USD each:
https://www.geier-bluhm.com/products/acrylic-vials/acrylic-vials-acrylic-tubular-vials/3-0507/

217983


Amazon, for $1.00 each, 10pc for 10 USD.
https://www.amazon.com/Acrylic-Bubble-Spirit-Measuring-Instrument/dp/B08CZD59RN

Do a web search as 7mm x 16mm round levels are an industry standard item.

To replace the level. Remove the two screws holding the level on the small plate. Put the dry and defective level into a small vise to hold the defective level,
push the holder plate with a light tap from a small hammer and punch on the surface away from the two mounting holes. The levels are glued on to the mounting plate. More often than not, the glue has lost it's grip over the decades and usually parts easy from the level.

Clean off the residual glue and plastic bits with a file or scraper. It is possible to clean off the white paint on the opposite side of the level mounting plate for re-paint or easier to more white paint as touch up or easier still is to leave it alone (lowest damage risk). Add a tiny amount of cyanoacrylate adhesive aka "super glue" to the level mount plate, press on the new level, done.


Bernice



Yikes, 50$ for a bubble level :D

[Bernice Loui]

Yes, but at what cost and availability of monorail camera accessories to do this?

For Sinar, there are plenty of extension rails, bellows, standards ( on the used market due the vast volume of Sinar stuff sold over the decades) of any Sinar variety can be used as intermediate bellows support making an absurdly long view camera easy to accomplish at modest cost.

That said, still own an Arca Swiss 6x9 view camera system (been and done Arca Swiss monorail system and Linhof both Technika and monorail system).. Will NEVER part with it as it is the nicest 6x9 view camera made and to use. This coupled with a Linhof Rapid Rollex 120 roll film holder makes an extremely nice 120 roll film camera system in every way. Tops the all the fixed box 120 cameras as this Arca Swiss view camera system has capabilities far beyond any box based 120 roll film camera.


Bernice



Could this be done on an Arca Swiss ...

Of course, within the Arca Swiss system, be it a pre-1982 Oschwald system or the current F-line system, you can connect as many rails together as you wish, throught the telescopic rail system. Rail elements of about 1 metre long are listed on the current catalogue.
And you can add any intermediate format frames and bellows ;-) (https://www.arca-swiss-magasin.com/contents/media/systeme-de-rail-arca-swiss.jpg)

Bob Salomon
"Yes, LInhof could and do that long extension. Sold a system to Dixie cup to do 1:1 on 810 with a 420mm or 480 with extension left over."

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/product/cases/carry-on-case/protector/1510


Bernice



Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Bernice Loui]

Will put this up as a separate post as this is worthy discussion.

Began with a Pelican 1510 roller:
https://www.pelican.com/us/en/product/cases/carry-on-case/protector/1510


Bernice



Which Pelican case do you use, if you know the model #? I would like something like that to be able to transport my Norma easily.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Do not purchase there. ~Seller Profit Center Warning~

The replacement levels are 7mm diameter x 16mm long. Available from Geier and Bluhm as part# 3-0507 in NYC for $1.39 USD each:
https://www.geier-bluhm.com/products/acrylic-vials/acrylic-vials-acrylic-tubular-vials/3-0507/

217983


Amazon, for $1.00 each, 10pc for 10 USD.
https://www.amazon.com/Acrylic-Bubble-Spirit-Measuring-Instrument/dp/B08CZD59RN

Do a web search as 7mm x 16mm round levels are an industry standard item.

To replace the level. Remove the two screws holding the level on the small plate. Put the dry and defective level into a small vise to hold the defective level,
push the holder plate with a light tap from a small hammer and punch on the surface away from the two mounting holes. The levels are glued on to the mounting plate. More often than not, the glue has lost it's grip over the decades and usually parts easy from the level.

Clean off the residual glue and plastic bits with a file or scraper. It is possible to clean off the white paint on the opposite side of the level mounting plate for re-paint or easier to more white paint as touch up or easier still is to leave it alone (lowest damage risk). Add a tiny amount of cyanoacrylate adhesive aka "super glue" to the level mount plate, press on the new level, done.


Bernice

Thanks for that Bernice! I just ordered thirty for myself.

[Bernice Loui]

Rick shared his Sinar story, here another Sinar story..

Decades ago during the early 1980's, got curious about this view camera stuff after using 35mm (Alpa then Canon) and Hasselblad. Foto friend who has been doing view camera for decades before my curiosity about view camera made a note about this. Some time passed before a phone call happened. A Sinar system appeared in the local news paper want-ads. It was a Sinar F with 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon, 210mm Sironar N, 190mm Wide Field Ektar, film holders, Sinar reflex viewer with fresnel all in a fiber board case for $1200 early 1980's USD (about $3600 USD today). Ouch on the $, yet the insistence to make this purchase was stiff. We made contact with the seller, made the deal. Took the Sinar system home knowing absolutely ZERO about the camera, how to use it or anything at all related to view camera.. That Sinar was like an alien mechanical device. If not for one to one tutoring and mentoring and LOTs of 4x5 film burned-wasted and more, none of this view camera stuff would have been today. As time passed, that Sinar F became a well know friend and image maker buddy. It never failed to produce and work as demanded. In time the lenses were rotated around in various ways. The reflex viewer/fresnel went away being replaced by a traditional dark cloth and loupe magnifier (another story of how many of these were tried then given up on until the current 7x loupe).

What was never appreciated early on, how capable that Sinar F was and how once view camera movements are understood and best to apply them on a camera that does precisely what is needed with no significant hesitation or effort.

Eventually, did view camera time with working photographers in their studio. They all had Sinar P with all the fixings on a BIG studio stand and many KW/seconds of studio strobe power and what appeared as an endless variety of light modifiers. This is where lighting technique, the importance of a view camera that stays put and does what is demanded from it with no complains was grown. We burned color transparency film by the case, Polaroid proof pulls filled the circular file, trips to The New Lab was break time and time to hang out with other Foto folks. Learned LOTs during those years of doing this.

All this afforded the privilege of being able to try out various other cameras from Linhof, Arca Swiss, Toyo, Cambo, and others.. Always came back to Sinar for what it did so well and with such ease. Field folders were sort of ok if camera movements and precision-accuracy are not really needed and strict limitations of what lenses can be used on camera is acceptable. Of all the field folders used-tried during that time the one that stuck was the Canham DLC, more monorail like with enough stability, precision-accuracy and lens capability than other similar field folders. Even spent time on the phone with Keith Canham congratulating him on such a nice field folder camera design and quality of construction.

In time, did other kinds of view camera stuff from landscapes, architectural interior and exterior (lighting interiors with many KW/sec of strobe power was _!_!_!_ then try balancing color with the ambient lighting was another _!_!_!_!_ ) and portraits... So yes, I've done LOTs of view camera Photography. It is likely due to this history and expectations-demands made on any view camera which strongly biased me towards a Sinar monorail and system as lesser capable view cameras become not tolerable. Knowing what lens-camera MUST do and how they must perform together imposes very strict requirements and demands on any view camera to be used.

About 2000, life changed and this Foto stuff took a distant back seat. Kept all that Sinar and other Foto stuff. About 2005-8, the used market was flooded with view camera stuff due to the transition to digital. This was the time when a LOT of Sinar stuff and more was purchased at essentially give-away prices. This was about the time when the first Norma happened. Prior to this life was always a Sinar F/F2 or Sinar P/P2. The design and quality of construction of the Norma was remarkable. Best of all the Norma easily integrated into all the other Sinar bits with no signifiant issues. About 2008 was the year of me joining LFF...


:)
Bernice



I align myself fully with Bernice’s comments.

The first camera I used with a 90mm lens of enough coverage to allow movements was a Cambo SC (in Calumet trim). I needed a recessed lens board and a bag bellows, and it was inconvenient to use. But it worked, and this was back when a Sinar was a fantasy camera for me. A 65mm lens is less workable, but I didn’t have a 65mm lens capable of movements (a 65/5.6 Super Angulon—not the f/8 version which barely covers 4x5) until I had a camera that could mount it reasonably for use in the real world.

And that was a Sinar F. No recessed lens boards required. I have fat fingers, and I hate recessed lens boards with some passion.

The real choice here is monorail or folder? That depends on the use case. The only advantage a folder has is portability (in terms of stored compactness, and to a lesser extent in terms of weight). If I was backpacking with a camera, I’d prefer a folding field camera and would simply limit my lenses and composition possibilities to what worked.

For interiors, though, the constraints are external and the equipment has to have the features that serve within those constraints. A good modular monorail is that camera.

The Norma was the first practical monorail. If bought for cheap, a Norma will require some restoration but it’s worth the effort. (Restoring some cameras will have you chasing your tail and wondering when it will end.)

But a later Sinar will also function beautifully and is probably the best balance between first-rate mechanics and price. And they are still restorable and worth the effort. Arca and Linhof are in the same category, but without the wide availability of inexpensive used bits that all interchange, and they are more expensive to begin with because of their boutique status.

I am biased—I own an F/F2 and a P. My F2 is a mashup of several cameras bought at junk prices and assembled into a camera that had my preferred features. I prefer the F back, because it’s thinner in that it doesn’t have the slot for the meter probe. But I prefer the F2 front that separates lateral shift and swing locking levers.

My F lives in the Sinar Expert flight-style case to which I added luggage wheels and a handle. I pulled it behind me across Nantucket with its wavy brick streets and crowds. It worked in that scenario. But it’s no backpacking camera. It could be made much more compact, however.

My P lives in its original fiberboard Expert case, and I stay closer to the car with it.

For architectural interiors, I would require easy use of a 65mm lens, bag bellows that allow easy shifting with a 65mm lens (for Sinar, that’s the Wide Angle Bellows 2), and access to lens controls and visibility of settings in dim conditions (read: that 65mm lens on a flat lens board).

Using a rollfilm format imposes similar requirements on the use of shorter lenses. I have used my F with a 6x12 back and a 47mm Super Angulon—surely a combination few 4x5 field folders could support.

Rick “there is no single best camera for every use case” Denney

[Drew Wiley]

A couple of random comments. All my Norma levels are in fine shape. I never pay attention to them, even in architectural shots. Subject planes are aligned visually in relation to the ground glass image itself. Or if I need to level, a pendulum-style angle finder works better than any level.

I don't see any sense in big cases including Pelican or Sinar which end up weighing as much or more than the camera itself. That seems like an impractical arcane holdover from past days. There are numerous prior threads on more ergonomic ways to transport and carry monorails safely. My routine backpack which is capable of safely carrying over 100 lbs of gear weighs less than four pounds itself. But now over 70, I'm not in a mood to prove that to anyone; been there, done that, over several decades. Now I put about half that weight in it. I can pull a fully assembled Norma monorail replete with 18 inch rail right out of the top compartment.

I don't get the idea of a heavy revolving back - just more strain on the overall rigidity. Maybe on a massively supported studio Sinar P, but not in the field with an F or Norma. The regular VH reversible Graflok back does it all.

[sharktooth]

I think this thread has lost sight of the original poster's intent, and has devolved into a discussion of the merits of the Sinar, rather than providing practical advice to a new large format user. This is a disservice to the original poster, and to others new to large format.

The original poster is looking to buy his "FIRST" large format camera. This implies that he has no experience with large format cameras and the practical concerns and pitfalls. He's clearly researched the specifications of different large format cameras, and has some reasonable idea of what he wants to do photographically. This is all well and good, but there are no new 4x5 Sinars available today, so it's not like you're going to be able to go on the internet tomorrow and get a perfectly working Sinar with the click of a button. You can find "classic" used Sinars in all kinds of condition, poorly described, and from shady and/or unknowledgeable sellers. It's every bit as difficult as buying a classic car. You really have to know what to look for and how to discern the rare gems from the junk. There are gems out there, but it may take a while to find them, and there are always risks.

Here are some facts:
The Sinar Norma was introduced in 1948 and probably ended around 1970 when the Sinar P was introduced. That means a Sinar Norma is probably at least 50 to 60 years old.
The Sinar f2 was introduced in 1986 and I'm guessing very few were sold after the early 2000's. That means a Sinar f2 is probably at least 20 to 30 years old.
No Sinars were ever cheap. They were purchased by working professionals in order to make money. They were not purchased as collectors items or as shelf queens. This means that they will almost certainly have been used a lot. They will have some wear and tear, but they were made well and could still work well IF they were properly maintained and not abused.
Sinar appears to be out of the 4x5 film camera market completely now. The Swiss site only shows medium format digital cameras, and there's no mention of any service parts or service for any 4x5 film cameras.
B&H Photo (probably the largest photo retailer in the world) doesn't show any Sinar products on their web site now.

Bellows:
The biggest problem with older view cameras is usually the bellows. If the bellows is bad you can't take pictures. Let me correct that, you can take pictures, but light leaks may cause problems that are intermittent, and may be misdiagnosed as lens problems or other camera issues by the inexperience user. The bad news is that no bellows will last forever. They are a wear item on every view camera, and will almost certainly need to be replaced or repaired. Bellows are like car tires, they're absolutely essential, but they only last so long. Twenty years is a very long time for a camera bellows. I've got a couple of Sinar bellows that look very nice cosmetically, but they're full of pinholes in the corners. This is not unusual, and should be expected. Nobody would say it's O.K. to drive on twenty year old car tires either. It's just a fact of life.
O.K., so you bought your Sinar and the bellows are bad, that's no big deal if you can go and buy a new bellows. Things aren't so easy any more. There are no new Sinar bellows available as far as I'm aware. You could go on eBay and buy another used one that is just as bad, or worse, than the one you have. If you'd bought a Linhof Kardan, you could buy a new bellows for that from B&H for $846.99. That's probably more than what people would be willing to pay for a used 4x5 camera. The B&H catalogue from 1998 had Sinar 4x5 bellows listed for $259. The current price of the Linhof bellows is about double what it was in 1998, so if a Sinar bellows is still available new today it's probably around $500. Definitely not chicken feed. There are third party options available for bellows, but there's no ready made solution. You either send your old bellows out to have the new bellows fitted to the old frames, or you buy a bellows and fit it to the old frames yourself. There is still time, money, and significant hassle involved.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to get an older classic view camera, but it's almost certainly not going to be a fast or easy path. I would like to get a Sinar Norma too, but I'd like to see it and test it out in person, and check the bellows for light leaks and make sure everything functions properly. I'd also like it to be at a reasonable price. The likelihood of that happening anytime soon is very low, and I've been on the lookout for years. That's fine if you're willing to wait for the right camera at the right price, but I'm guessing that someone looking for their first camera wants to get started right away. In that case, as I stated in an earlier post, you should go for something available new today, or buy something used from a reliable and trusted source. In either case it may not be the perfect choice, but at least you'll get started off on the right foot, and can then start looking for that elusive dream camera for as long as it takes.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51338033327_c66e0c65c6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyQHD)Kumar Norma 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyQHD) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51338022827_862d99c431_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyMAB)Kumar Norma 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyMAB) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Here's some direct timely experience on Normas. Yesterday this arrived on my front step from a dealer in Japan. I bought what you see here for $250 including shipping. This camera was on APUG a week ago so I inquired. This morning it took me some fun time to check all the controls, and I decided it needed a bath. Most Normas are filthy especially in all the cracks and corners so this is something anybody can do themselves. Go to the Auto Parts store, buy some Electronic Contact Cleaner, shop towels, and Moly EP grease. A dirty old toothbrush, some nitrile gloves, and that's about it. Buy the Norma instruction manual, instructions for periodic service are there. Use outside or proper ventilation.
Strip the camera down to the component parts, lay them on a shop towel, and blast 'em with the contact cleaner, which cleans away all the crap. Scrub with toothbrush with buff with shop towel. Amazing how dirty some times. Finally lay on with toothbrush on the threaded parts, the Moly EP lube. Only a light emulsion coating, then reassemble.

I just finished all of this. My new camera from Kumar is nice and ready to go, only issues with this one are two broken bubble levels, and the rear standard ball detent in the tilt mechanism isn't detenting. These are not major major issues and IMO the camera is in great condition. I don't do shutters, ball detents, focus helicals, etc. I leave that for later, right now this camera dosen't need it. The Micro Drive mechanism for the focus is very smooth and not reason to mess with it at this point.

New Sinar Norma era Bellows are available from Keith at Custom Bellows. Keith once told me they made all the bellows for Sinar Norma, in fact they still have the original production drawings. Anybody who says they are too expensive (they are not) or slow and painful (they are not) is likely not really all that familiar with them. They are the greatest! :) How many brand new things can you buy for Sinar Norma? Not many.

Anyway not bad for $250 delivered IMO. This is the third one I have found recently for around this price.

Good Luck and if it's what you really want go for it!

[Peter De Smidt]

Great job, Daniel. I'd love to pick one up.

[rdenney]

I’d rather have a 40-year-old Sinar for a few hundred dollars than a brand new field folder for $1000 or more, if my goal was to shoot interiors with short lenses.

By the way, I paid $300 for my P Expert Kit at a quality camera store. Had I needed it, I’m sure they could have showed me the basics. But I had the manual on my iPhone with five minutes of googling. And this forum can fill in any blanks.

And a monorail makes it much easier to understand movements, given that they are usually independent.

A beginner to large format may, of course, not be a beginner to working on mechanical things. A Sinar is not that difficult to work on compared to lots of hobbies that require mechanical skills.

So, a Sinar for a beginner is not bad advice at all. 50 years ago, the advice would have been a Calumet CC-400 strictly based on price. The beginner of today has it much better.

Rick “who has purchased four or five Sinar bellows and only one—a $5 eBay special bought to be used as a compendium shade—had light leaks” Denney

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50023429673_f2a8a35604_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jdp9Rp)Brand New Sinar Norma Tapered Bellows 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jdp9Rp) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50024234767_acba62ba13_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jdthbk)Brand New Sinar Norma Tapered Bellows 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2jdthbk) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I would not buy new bellows from anybody but Keith at Camera Bellows in the UK. Such nice great people!

[sharktooth]

Anyway not bad for $250 delivered IMO. This is the third one I have found recently for around this price.

Good Luck and if it's what you really want go for it!

Daniel, you'd be the ideal person to sell someone their first large format camera. You probably have decades of experience with Sinars, and know where to look for them, how to inspect them, and how to do functional repairs. If someone with next to no experience was to buy from you, they could certainly be pretty confident in getting a good working camera in excellent condition with a new bellows.

The original poster is indeed looking for their first large format camera, and a Sinar Norma is one of the preferred choices. You could help him make his dreams come true by fixing up your latest find, installing a new bellows, and getting it all set up for him to get started on his new venture into large format photography.

How much would you be willing to sell him this camera for?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Sorry not selling, only buying:)

In a former life while going through college I worked at the "White Church" Columbus Camera Group, working with Bernie and Stu, five afternoons and Saturday all day. It was sort of a blur to me now I sold large format and Leica, we had amazing goldmine inventory. One time we had twenty Deardorffs at once come through and we'll restore 'em too. Hundreds of obscure barrel lenses I was in heaven. :)

I bought my first Sinar Norma (looked new) back then at CCG

I would say fully restored Sinar Norma full service stripdown $600-$800? There are Sinar repair people around, I know a few good leads.

Bernice had one for sale a while back worth every penny at $600. Complete stripdown and rebuild

[sharktooth]

Sorry not selling, only buying:)

In a former life while going through college I worked at the "White Church" Columbus Camera Group, working with Bernie and Stu, five afternoons and Saturday all day. It was sort of a blur to me now I sold large format and Leica, we had amazing goldmine inventory. One time we had twenty Deardorffs at once come through and we'll restore 'em too. Hundreds of obscure barrel lenses I was in heaven. :)

I bought my first Sinar Norma (looked new) back then at CCG

I would say fully restored Sinar Norma full service stripdown $600-$800? There are Sinar repair people around, I know a few good leads.

Bernice had one for sale a while back worth every penny at $600. Complete stripdown and rebuild

That is the kind of information we should be providing to someone looking to buy their "FIRST" large format camera. If they're looking to buy something used, then the person they're buying from is more important than the actual camera. Finding someone who's honest, knowledgeable, and can do competent repairs, is not very easy these days. It's hard enough these days to find people who can do repairs on 35mm film cameras, much less large format. The world has changed, and film cameras are now the realm of cost-conscious hobbyists. Most skilled technical repair people want to earn a living, and not waste their time with hobbyists wanting to nickel and dime them to death. Unless you're willing and able to get your hands dirty and do the work yourself, you're probably best to buy something new. There are still lots of new large format options available. Some examples are Intrepid and Standard Camera at the low end, a few like Chamonix at the upper mid scale, and still some high end stuff from Linhof and Arca at the high end.

[Bernice Loui]

IMO, Sinar Norma or F is one of the very best view cameras to learn "how to view camera" due to their visual presentation of what a view camera is and how it operates and functions. The idea-belief Sinar is a "classic" problem camera is absurd. Due to their design, quality of construction, quality of materials used in their production, they are extremely durable and remarkably abuse tolerant. Having Cleaned_Lubed_Adjusted the three Sinar Normas here (two are 5x7, one 4x5, zero interest in 8x10) all are now as good as new or better than new. Last one worked on was a restoration project that has a home with another LFF member after a compete going over, now used on various Photography projects.

Wrote about the CLA process here:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152344-Sinar-Norma-quot-It-s-stuck-I-ll-just-add-Hi-Tech-lube-quot

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?152345-Sinar-Norma-quot-It-s-stuck-I-ll-just-add-Hi-Tech-lube-quot-Part-II&highlight=norma


Facts is, Sinar in general with the exception of the Sinar Alpine are Extremely Durable, Re-buildable, Precision-Accurate, Reliable and easy to use view cameras with absolute interchangeability of it's modules as needed.

Having been inside of more than one Norma and other Sinar cameras, they are simply a wonderful example of mechanical design and construction excellence.

Again, bellows are simply NOT an issue. Sinar had several variants over their decades of production, some were leather, some were synthetic materials of different varieties. The early Sinar bellows are more flexi and nicer to use, the later synthetic material bellows are stiffer but last and last and last with remarkable durability. Again, plenty of GOOD used Sinar bellows on eBay and various used camera gear outlets. Again, Horseman L series bellows are directly interchangeable with Sinar as are the lens boards.. Having owned and used both Sinar and Horseman L series as real world experience. At this point in time there is zero reason why an absolutely excellent user Sinar or Horseman L series bellows (bag or standard square) cannot be had for about $50 USD.

Most telling is the currently increasing market value of all Sinar cameras. There was a time when a GOOD 4x5 Norma could be had for $200 with dealer warranty for any defects including bellows. Complete Sinar master Norma systems with 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, set of 5 lenses, rail extension set, film holders, bag bellows, case and other accessories could be had for well under $1000. This was back in the "no one wants a film view camera days"...

The other market telling item, Sinar mechanical shutter. These were once easily had with cables for about $200, now about twice to four times that cost today..

These are the realities of what has happened to Sinar and this view camera stuff today. In many ways, it is a good thing. If more folks continue to use sheet film, this will grow the market demand for sheet film aiding the availability of sheet film into the future. BTW, with the recent interest of 35mm roll film, it appears many of the color transparency 35mm roll films are on .... back order _!_



Bernice

[Scott Davis]

That is the kind of information we should be providing to someone looking to buy their "FIRST" large format camera. If they're looking to buy something used, then the person they're buying from is more important than the actual camera. Finding someone who's honest, knowledgeable, and can do competent repairs, is not very easy these days. It's hard enough these days to find people who can do repairs on 35mm film cameras, much less large format. The world has changed, and film cameras are now the realm of cost-conscious hobbyists. Most skilled technical repair people want to earn a living, and not waste their time with hobbyists wanting to nickel and dime them to death. Unless you're willing and able to get your hands dirty and do the work yourself, you're probably best to buy something new. There are still lots of new large format options available. Some examples are Intrepid and Standard Camera at the low end, a few like Chamonix at the upper mid scale, and still some high end stuff from Linhof and Arca at the high end.

I would not recommend an Intrepid to anyone but someone for who price is the only deciding factor. I'd even recommend something like a Calumet Cadet or a vintage Graphic View II in stead (and I strongly dislike the Graphic View II). In all honesty, the Sinar family (with the exception of the A1/Alpina) are about perfect for anyone looking to learn view camera use because of how well designed the controls are. Later, if after using it, they decide a monorail is not for them, then I'd say look at a Chamonix or a Canham for a field camera. I'm not a huge Chamonix fan, but they're good cameras. Canhams are, despite the rather hefty price tag for a new one, some of the best values new or used, because of their customer service. You need warranty service? Pick up the phone, call Canham, talk to Keith himself, and if it's not your fault, it's fixed under warranty. Even with a 15 year old used camera (I know, I had this very thing happen to me... I was probably the third or fourth owner of my Canham 5x7, it developed a problem, and he took care of it, no questions asked). And if you need modifications, he'll work with you on that, too.

I know I come across like a Canham fanboy, but I kinda have to be... I have four of them now. 5x7, 5x12, 8x10, and 14x17.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Back to the OP, You can find Normas in the $250-$300 price range, I have recently done this three times. It's also possible to build a good one from parts. Yes problems can need to be addressed, simplest parts solution is to buy another front or rear standard these are in the $125-$200 range. Then sell the extra parts here. Another $50 for good bellows so that's about $300 or a bit more. Certainly you could get this back if you hate it. Clean it yourself or pay a repairperson if you need to. Sinar repair facilities are around. Google turns up a few......

So $300 good price for a Norma in good condition. How much is an Intrepid? Why is new better than used? It becomes used when you buy it!

[Drew Wiley]

I find Sharktooth's reasoning untenable. My first LF camera was a Sinar and I never regretted it. You were purchasing into a whole system of options which was extraordinarily versatile. Even major repairs are easy due to the interchangeability of components and their great abundance. Many of these cameras were used only in studios, so are still potentially in great shape even after many years of use. That was the case even with my last Sinar purchase, a Norma with utterly pristine bellows after almost half a century of studio use by someone else. Getting it all fine-tuned and the settings re-calibrated as if new took me about half an hour. Plus I can reconfigure it if needed with nearly any of my previous F and P components, including the full selection of bellows and rails.

Yes, the front standard on my very first Sinar got worn out due to the extreme torture that camera took during thousands of miles of mountain backpacking in all kinds of weather. But even that first camera has easily been fully refurbished just by swapping out a few parts. And it's original bellows has been repurposed as the compendium shade on my Norma. Yes, I supplement my Sinar system with folding field cameras for certain portability scenarios like airline travel, for example. But Sinar, especially the Norma, is still my general go-to gear, and will long outlast me.

[Bernice Loui]

Based on the Intrepid web page their base 5x4 camera is £280.00 or at the current exchange rate $389.02 USD add shipping and etc...
No longer a "budget" or low cost view camera any more...
https://intrepidcamera.co.uk/products/

Honestly, at that cost, there are a long list of other view cameras that can be far better choices. IMO, the Interpid has become a fashionable Foto item. What started out as a low cost entry into view camera has grown to become a current fashion statement.

Fixer-upper 4x5 Sinar Norma today is about $300 or so, add service needs to achieve a proper Norma.. and these are absolutely worth the $ spent and effort to make a Norma excellent again.. then that Norma will be good for decades more.

What needs to be appreciated, at the beginning of the view camera journey, most any view camera can appear as an alien mechanical device full of mystery and intrigue and unknowns. The abilities of most any view camera at the beginning is mostly unknown and un-appreciated. Yet, this is no excuse or logical reason to justify a "entry" level view camera.. As view camera skills develops and grows more demands will be placed upon any given camera-lens and all involved. This is what separates a really nicely designed and made view camera system from lesser view cameras and their system. It is also why those venturing into the view camera world can be tolerant of view camera limitations by design. Those with LOTs of view camera image making experience and have pushed a view camera and it's related systems accessories to the very limits of it's abilities can grow to have lesser tolerance for a view camera system that cannot meet these demands.

As the often repeated words goes... a view camera is not a lot more than a light tight box that is flexi in the center". There are details to this, but the fundamental fact remains a view camera is a flexi light tight box. This is why it is so easy to make a view camera and why view cameras that are over a century old can be restored into as new fully functional condition.

The learning how to view camera journey is difficult enough as is, having a view camera, lens-shutter, tripod and all related that does not work against the view camera journey's traveler is an absolute plus.


Bernice




So $300 good price for a Norma in good condition. How much is an Intrepid? Why is new better than used? It becomes used when you buy it!

[Daniel Unkefer]

Great job, Daniel. I'd love to pick one up.

Thanks Peter! Bet you would like it! :)

[sharktooth]

You're missing the point completely. I love Sinars. I have a Sinar P, which is arguably the most well designed monorail camera ever. I also have an f and an f1, which I don't love at all, but are useful for parts, and were cheap. If they were available new today, and you could afford one, they would be a great choice as a "FIRST" large format camera. I'd also love to get a nice Norma as well, but the reality is, Sinar has long exited the large format film camera market, so it's not like you're going to be able to go shopping on Amazon to find stuff you might need. Repairs are also likely to be necessary, and even minor repairs can be a problem if you aren't prepared or skilled enough to do things yourself.

There are many posts here at this site from people who are excited to get into large format photography for the first time. It's nice to see younger people getting interested in film, since it may help to keep it alive. It's also clear that a lot of us old timers are not appreciating the challenges facing someone new to the medium.

If you love to tinker, are mechanically inclined, and have no qualms about taking a camera apart yourself, then a used large format camera is the perfect toy for you. I suspect, however, that a significant proportion of new users are more interested in getting going with large format, and need something that "just works" per the Apple philosophy. That's perfectly reasonable, and probably what the majority would want. It's inappropriate to tell everyone that a used camera is the best choice, since it leads to unrealistic expectations.

Rather than stating that this or that used camera is the best choice as a first large format camera, why don't you point to a trusted person, store, or legitimate website where someone could buy a used large format camera. Are there even any trustworthy retail stores that still sell good used large format cameras these days? I'm scratching my head to think of anyone or anyplace to recommend. If you can't provide a link to a trustworthy and reliable supplier then you're not really helping.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Ebay? Google Sinar Norma? Check local stocks? Hit up photog friends? Bought one recently from KEH for $250 Patience is a necessary virtue

Glenn Evans knows his stuff and has had a lot of inventory throughout the decades. Study his Norma webpage

http://www.glennview.com/sinar.htm

Why suggest this is difficult when it really isn't

-Dan, who got grease on his T-shirt from a Sinar Norma today :)

[rdenney]

All the complaints were addressed—where to buy, where to get information, how to find parts, where to get service and what it might cost.

We also don’t need to assume the OP has no skills or talent so that they have to be spoon-fed. If what had been advised isn’t workable, the OP will tell us.

But at some point, one ought to take the hint provided by the ending point of many here (including you, Sharktooth). Would the journey to that endpoint be better with a camera that doesn’t fulfill requirements even when like new, or with one that does after a bit of repair? I have had to fix all the view cameras I have used—I’ve never been able to afford a new one. That includes the horrifyingly bad Newton NueVue (bought in 1982, but old even then), which required a lot of work, and after that effort was still worthless crap. That was the best I could do at the time, after having used a Linhof in college. A Sinar—any of them—won’t be worthless crap after any required fiddling.

Rick “knowing how to fix them won’t do the owner any harm” Denney

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51338855322_10b4da6bc8_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdD44Y)8x10 Sinar Norma Long Apo Ronar 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdD44Y) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Camera Bellows made me the Norma "Special Bellows" 5x7 to 8x10 shorty bellows. Listed in the Norma catalog, never seen one in decent shape -ever.- So I had Keith build me one to catalog specs. Going to the 5x7 Intermediate Standard in the middle adds a lot of stability to this setup. As does the Plaubel Peco Profia Camera Stand.

[Drew Wiley]

Sharktooth - Sinars are still and probably will be the easiest to repair, simply because you can get a used version so cheaply and easily these days, that cannibalizing parts is easy. A person can often acquire a whole replacement camera these days for less than what a single major replacement part cost during the heyday of Sinar Bron. There are still in fact outlets carrying service parts too. And even old Normas are so well made that they were designed to be tuned up periodically. Of course, one has to do their homework when buying a new one. An example with a clean original bellows is going to command a higher price than one with issues. And those original 4X5 tapered bellows are more versatile than the subsequent box bellows. But quite a few clean Normas have turned up in recent years.

Recommending one go to a camera dealer instead of the web auction site isn't as simple as it once was. Yes, even our local camera store sometimes has a used Sinar of some kind for sale. But it's not like the old days. Don't expect anyone on staff there to know what they're talking about. And they'll probably be asking three times as much money as the thing is realistically worth. Frankly, there's a glut of Sinar for sale overall. Some of it is cobbled together out of spare parts, for better or worse. A beginner probably wouldn't know that an F1 front standard doesn't realistically match a P rear carrier. But that's what forums like this are for - simply ask experienced Sinar users!

Of course, I'm not knocking other view camera brands at all. Once just has to decide, given a single introductory camera, whether it should be monorail or folder design, and where to go from that point, selection-wise. But I've never personally been of the philosophy that beginners should start out with lower quality. That can lead to frustration and just starting all over again before long. My "beginner" view camera proved to be a lifetime piece of gear, at least in a system sense.

The original question I think I already answered earlier, F2 vs Norma. I have em both. The Norma is a more handsome and rugged and about a pound heavier, similarly equipped. The original tapered bellows is deluxe by comparison. But the later F2 has smoother focus gearing.

[Joshua Dunn]

I have been photographing with Sinar cameras since the late 90s. I have used Normas but never owned one. I have Sinar F2 cameras in 4x5 and 8x10, P in 4x5, 5x7, 6x17 (customized to use the Canham 6x17 roll film back) and 8x10, and the P2 in 4x5. I agree with a lot of what has been said in favor of the F2 as a first camera but would offer a few additional points.

If you are patient, you can find good Sinar F2s for $400 or less. That’s often cheaper that a Norma. Parts and accessories are way easier to find than a Norma. But most importantly to a photographer new to large format, it will be the easiest system to grow with. You often don’t know what you want or need when jumping into large format. You do your research and then at some point you pull the trigger on a system. The difference is that most photographers learn what they want from a camera after using it for a while. So, buying a camera that doesn’t meet your needs after six months can be an expensive mistake to correct.

One of the great things about a Sinar is its modularity. As you grown and learn large format the format can change and grow to meet your needs. There is almost no configuration you can’t come up with using a Sinar F2. I shoot multiple formats with lenses from 38mm (to be fair I use it rarely) to 600mm. You just modify the configuration of your camera to suit your subject. That alone makes it a great camera for a new photographer to start with. And lastly they hold their value. You can buy a used one, use it for years and if you decide to sell it you can more than likely get what you paid for it.

One thing I would recommend is learning how to pack the F2. If you get creative you can still get it compact and safely stored in a backpack.

Just my 2 cents.

-Joshua

[sharktooth]

O.K., I have to admit I've been completely wrong on this issue. i sincerely bow to your superior knowledge and sage advice.

There's no question that Sinars truly are virtually indestructible. Possibly even anointed by a higher being.

So, head on over to eBay or Google and snap up your own Norma for $250 (or preferably less).

What could possibly go wrong? Nothing, apparently.

Silly me. I'm hoping it was just a temporary lapse of reason. :cool:

[rdenney]

O.K., I have to admit I've been completely wrong on this issue. i sincerely bow to your superior knowledge and sage advice.

There's no question that Sinars truly are virtually indestructible. Possibly even anointed by a higher being.

So, head on over to eBay or Google and snap up your own Norma for $250 (or preferably less).

What could possibly go wrong? Nothing, apparently.

Silly me. I'm hoping it was just a temporary lapse of reason. :cool:

Glad you “came around.”

Rick “lol” Denney

[sharktooth]

Indeed. My serving of humble pie came in Sinar recessed board. Still though, it was quite tasty.

[Bernice Loui]

Now ya know and have met the tribe of "filmy_old" Sinar users here on LFF...

;)
Bernice



Indeed. My serving of humble pie came in Sinar recessed board. Still though, it was quite tasty.

[Bernice Loui]

Better to get involved with a view camera system that the creative artist image maker can grow into than a view camera that the creative artist image maker develops out of...

As for the Sinar F.. it can fold up like this:
218018

218019


F2 folded...
218020


Bernice



I have been photographing with Sinar cameras since the late 90s. I have used Normas but never owned one. I have Sinar F2 cameras in 4x5 and 8x10, P in 4x5, 5x7, 6x17 (customized to use the Canham 6x17 roll film back) and 8x10, and the P2 in 4x5. I agree with a lot of what has been said in favor of the F2 as a first camera but would offer a few additional points.

If you are patient, you can find good Sinar F2s for $400 or less. That’s often cheaper that a Norma. Parts and accessories are way easier to find than a Norma. But most importantly to a photographer new to large format, it will be the easiest system to grow with. You often don’t know what you want or need when jumping into large format. You do your research and then at some point you pull the trigger on a system. The difference is that most photographers learn what they want from a camera after using it for a while. So, buying a camera that doesn’t meet your needs after six months can be an expensive mistake to correct.

One of the great things about a Sinar is its modularity. As you grown and learn large format the format can change and grow to meet your needs. There is almost no configuration you can’t come up with using a Sinar F2. I shoot multiple formats with lenses from 38mm (to be fair I use it rarely) to 600mm. You just modify the configuration of your camera to suit your subject. That alone makes it a great camera for a new photographer to start with. And lastly they hold their value. You can buy a used one, use it for years and if you decide to sell it you can more than likely get what you paid for it.

One thing I would recommend is learning how to pack the F2. If you get creative you can still get it compact and safely stored in a backpack.

Just my 2 cents.

-Joshua

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I haven't personally encountered anything resembling a clean Norma as low as $250. Anything that "too good to be true" would probably have issues like leaky bellows. If one already has another Sinar bellows on hand, no problem, just switch it out. But as I already mentioned, I really prefer the original tapered 4X5 Norma bellows to the later box-style ones. And I was perfectly happy to pay triple that alleged price for an especially clean unit. It was still a comparative bargain, considerably less in fact than almost any new wooden folder.

I have seen some used F+ and F1 4x5's down in that $250 range. The problem with those is that the front standard is really just the same thing as an intermediate bellows standard, and wears out a lot faster than the improved F2 front standard. But if in good condition, these models are still desirable if one is on a tight budget and wants to get into the Sinar system.

Normas do seem to need a bit of tightening up screws and so forth more often than F's. And the early ground glasses are based on a supplementary screen diffusion layer rather than actual grinding, so are dimmer, and should ideally be replaced. But unless something is significantly worn out, a set of jeweler's screwdrivers and small metric allen keys is about all you need.

Carry-wise, review my numerous backpack posts. I leave em all set up in the top compartment of my external frame pack. I've had Sinar along on many an ice climb in younger days. Recently found a few of those negatives never printed yet, so am doing some of that lately. Some of the glacier scenes simply are no more.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Hmm It's not an alleged price. It's right here. Simply told Kumar don't need board nor bellows. $250 delivered.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/sold-sinar-norma-4x5-camera.185441/

KEH had one that went on Ebay not that long ago for $250 plus shipping so bought that one. And another Ebay auction went low at around $250 last year. That camera was a total shelf queen but focus operating smoothly so no reason to do anything at this point.

Norma Tapered Bellows are what I have been ordering from Custom Bellows and they know exactly what I want, Keith is very familiar. Very very quick except during the worst of covid last year.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51338033327_c66e0c65c6_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyQHD)Kumar Norma 2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mdyQHD) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Normas have exterior plugs that are removed to reach the interior allen screws which release the mechanism tension. It's easy to completely bugger a Norma by just turning a screw or two. The plugs that align the rail are often very worn down. Sanding down the plug surface flat and reinstalling it can cut out wobbling of the standards.

[Scott Davis]

I got lucky on my Norma- it was a 5x7 that I picked up for $300. The reason it went so cheap was the photos weren't good and made the bellows look like they might be moldy. In fact it was just dusty and the photos had lots of glare on them. I've since added front and rear 4x5 standards and an intermediate standard, and the most expensive piece, a Sinar Shutter (wish I had grabbed one a few years back when they were going for $300 a pop all day every day). But mine had just come back from a CLA, and had both of the cable releases and the flash sync plug. Now if I could only find a Norma 8x10 back and bellows for a "reasonable" sum :D

[Drew Wiley]

Daniel, the fact you had to order a bellows for it tells us that you did not really get a complete camera for $250. Glad you did find a bargain, but you'd have to give the full sum involved in any apples to apples discussion. I have various bellows on hand, including bag bellows for wide-angle work, but I'm primarily a long lens shooter. Back in my predominantly F2 days, I routinely kept the extra long (28 inch) Horseman bellows on it. That doesn't sag or need an intermediate support like the regular Sinar box bellows. But with the tapered Norma bellows I can handle my full typical range of 4x5 lenses, 120mm to 450mm, just fine without stressing it. I imagine these were somewhat expensive to make, and maybe that's why they transitioned over to the square box style, which they could just section off lengths of. The tapered bellows is also less subject to internal flare issues, though I always have a compendium shade in place anyway.

Scott, I passed up a very nice 5X7 Norma. I love that longer rectangle format. But I really had to draw the line in terms of accumulating too many options. My 8X10 is a folder, and I can always crop a little from that to get a more stretched rectangle if needed. And getting older, I find myself resorting to 6X9 format more often, and get the same pleasing composition proportion in that manner. But it's really the fact that my punch and register film gear is set up to do either 8X10 or 4x5 or smaller masks and so forth that is the sticking point. Yes, I have the ability to do 5X7 too, but only on the short side of the film. This is a big deal to me, especially in color printing.

[Scott Davis]

Daniel, the fact you had to order a bellows for it tells us that you did not really get a complete camera for $250. Glad you did find a bargain, but you'd have to give the full sum involved in any apples to apples discussion. I have various bellows on hand, including bag bellows for wide-angle work, but I'm primarily a long lens shooter. Back in my predominantly F2 days, I routinely kept the extra long (28 inch) Horseman bellows on it. That doesn't sag or need an intermediate support like the regular Sinar box bellows. But with the tapered Norma bellows I can handle my full typical range of 4x5 lenses, 120mm to 450mm, just fine without stressing it. I imagine these were somewhat expensive to make, and maybe that's why they transitioned over to the square box style, which they could just section off lengths of. The tapered bellows is also less subject to internal flare issues, though I always have a compendium shade in place anyway.

Scott, I passed up a very nice 5X7 Norma. I love that longer rectangle format. But I really had to draw the line in terms of accumulating too many options. My 8X10 is a folder, and I can always crop a little from that to get a more stretched rectangle if needed. And getting older, I find myself resorting to 6X9 format more often, and get the same pleasing composition proportion in that manner. But it's really the fact that my punch and register film gear is set up to do either 8X10 or 4x5 or smaller masks and so forth that is the sticking point. Yes, I have the ability to do 5X7 too, but only on the short side of the film. This is a big deal to me, especially in color printing.

I have a number of lenses that I've acquired, either by design or by accident, that are meant for 5x7. So the Norma 5x7 was a natural acquisition, since when combined with the Sinar shutter, I can use any number of really cool old brass barrel portrait lenses. If I want to take the 5x7 format in the field (which I have done) I have a separate full complement of lenses that cover, and fit on my Canham wood field 5x7, which is a much better camera for travel (I've hauled that particular beast to California - I'm on the East Coast- and as far away as Argentina). I've also brought it in 5x12 configuration out to San Francisco... thinking of which I need to bring it back with me to SF to re-shoot Seal Rock at low tide when you can see the hole in it. But the Norma has been genius for doing studio still lifes.

[Daniel Unkefer]

All three Normas were purchased recently in the under $300 price range as originally stated. The one from Kumar that arrived two days ago came at my request without bellows, and Kumar reduced the asking price appropriately in that case. I certainly don't want or need any more square 4x5 Sinar bellows, I have at least a dozen I've accumulated of all types over 30+ years.

Shipping via EMS isn't free, it was included in Kumar's price to me. Subtract $50 or so for EMS shipping from Japan, I'd estimate I paid just a bit over $200 for this latest Norma seen just above ^^. Not bad at all and that is my point. It is doable if you are patient

[Drew Wiley]

Scott - Among folders, I've always coveted the Canham 5X7 wooden folder; I regard it as the "sweet point" in his whole camera design lineup. But when I finally got around to acquiring a folder to supplement my primary Sinar usage, I did it for sake of long-term planning with advancing age in mind, so went with a distinctly lightweight little Ebony 4X5 folder instead, which still accommodates up to a 360mm regular lens. But for long-haul backpacking trips, I tend to use 6X9 backs with the Ebony, since Quickload and Readyload 4X5 sleeves are now gone. It's just really difficult to plan long hikes at the moment, due to so much smoke and ongoing forest fire risk all over the West.

I don't know what camera I'll carry tomorrow or Friday. Either the Sinar Norma or some Pentax 6X7 gear; I need to finish shooting the rolls in them. Three or our natural arches off the coast just north of SF have collapsed over the past two winters. Glad I got nice 8x10 shots of them first. A woman died two days ago hiking to one of them, not realizing that all the trail and formerly secure footing was now gone, and the arch itself washed away. I can imagine her peering down at the edge of the cliff wondering where it is. At low tide, one could once walk right through it.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I see that Kumar also advertised my latest Norma acquisition here at LFF as well as over at Phototrio. $325 including square bellows and shipping from Japan is still a great deal IMO. For me getting it without the bellows for $250 (including shipping) was a bonus!

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?164554-FS-Sinar-Norma-4x5-Camera&highlight=sinar+norma

Next from Keith at Custom Bellows: Two 5x7 Norma Bellows (extra long tapered), and an extra long 8x10 Norma Tapered Bellows. I try to send things in in groups to cut down on shipping costs. I've been buying original Norma Bellows cheaply when I can find them in completely trashed condition. I buy them mainly to get the Norma format frames, then I send them to Keith. Voila-- brand new Norma Bellows for what I think is a very fair price!

http://www.custombellows.co.uk/

BTW Custom Bellows has been making bellows since 1895! :)