Getting back into 4x5 -- Need some Suggestions

[dbla]

Forgive me, film gods, for I have sinned. Five years ago, out of an abundance of professional fatigue and shortsightedness I sold all of my film equipment. Well, I have seen the error of my ways and I desire to return to the LF light.

But in all seriousness, I am looking to get back into 4x5. Years ago I shot with a Linhof Super Technika and really enjoyed the "press" style cameras that would fold a lens inside of them.

I'm also considering one of the Chamonix cameras, which are beautiful and I can get one brand new...Specifically, a 45N-2 and probably a Nikkor 150mm 5.6 to get started...

Are there any others I should consider?

I primarily shoot environmental portraiture or really environmental scenes in general. Think Alec Soth with far less talent and Guggenheimery...

Anyway, any guidance would be GREATLY appreciated...I need to find myself some film holders I guess.....

[maltfalc]

pacemaker speed graphic if you want maximum lens compatibility but somewhat limited movements, crown graphic if you want to go a little wider than a speed graphic at the cost of being limited to lenses with shutters, or maybe a wista d.

[Corran]

You had a Linhof, so why not get another one? They've come down in price in the past few years it seems (used). A Master Technika would be the best one to get in terms of flexibility - having the top flap and tripod mount for using fall with the camera upside down is something I appreciate having. They do have some downsides due to the clamshell design, but using normalish lenses avoids most of those issues (90mm and longer).

Of course the Chamonix is also an excellent camera and much lighter. Easier to use super wides, more flexible in movements, with a small trade-off in terms of zeroing out movements.

You haven't stated a budget. If tight, get an Intrepid Mk.IV and just take a bit more time with setup to make sure you've got good parallelism. And don't drop it. As stated above, a Crown/Speed would be the cheaper clamshell option.

All 4 options above have their own quirks and applications, no camera is perfect.

[Two23]

I have a Chamonix 045n and love it. However it's strengths (lens movements, wide range of lens lengths) are things you don't need for portraits. Plus you really can't use a Chamonix hand held. You might consider a camera with a focal plane shutter. You can then use some really cool early barrel lenses (Petzvals etc.) that don't have a built in shutter.


Kent in SD

[dbla]

pacemaker speed graphic if you want maximum lens compatibility but somewhat limited movements, crown graphic if you want to go a little wider than a speed graphic at the cost of being limited to lenses with shutters, or maybe a wista d.


You had a Linhof, so why not get another one? They've come down in price in the past few years it seems (used). A Master Technika would be the best one to get in terms of flexibility - having the top flap and tripod mount for using fall with the camera upside down is something I appreciate having. They do have some downsides due to the clamshell design, but using normalish lenses avoids most of those issues (90mm and longer).

Of course the Chamonix is also an excellent camera and much lighter. Easier to use super wides, more flexible in movements, with a small trade-off in terms of zeroing out movements.

You haven't stated a budget. If tight, get an Intrepid Mk.IV and just take a bit more time with setup to make sure you've got good parallelism. And don't drop it. As stated above, a Crown/Speed would be the cheaper clamshell option.

All 4 options above have their own quirks and applications, no camera is perfect.


I have a Chamonix 045n and love it. However it's strengths (lens movements, wide range of lens lengths) are things you don't need for portraits. Plus you really can't use a Chamonix hand held. You might consider a camera with a focal plane shutter. You can then use some really cool early barrel lenses (Petzvals etc.) that don't have a built in shutter.


Kent in SD

Hey all thanks foe the input. I’m not particularly interested in any of the “graphic” style cameras… been there shot that years ago. I do think I need to look into linhofs again on eBay I guess. Probably more cost effective than the Chamonix.

Budget wise I’m looking at roughly 2k or less on a setup. “Setup” being camera, lens, holders, etc….

[Corran]

I bought another Linhof Master Technika last year for $450, including a lens. To be fair, That was a steal from an estate sale, and it has some issues with the bellows. I think you could easily get an MT, 2-3 lenses, and all the necessary accessories for that $2k, and have some left over depending on lens choice.

[alan_b]

Depending on why you aren’t interested in the Graphics, one of the Toyo 45A variants might work for you.

[abruzzi]

I'd second (or third) the suggestion to look at used Technikas. I have an early Master, and I liked it so much more than the Shen Hao that was my first LF camera. Its just so rigid and precise compared to the Shen Hao. I got mine for ~$800. I've since had to replace the bellows, but that wasn't too hard. I now much prefer my Technikardan, which I got for a steal about a year ago, but today that camera used would eat most of your $2k budget.

[Two23]

I think the first thing you need to determine is if you will always want to use a tripod or not.


Kent in SD

[neil poulsen]

I don't know whether or not you liked the range finder on a Linhof, but you might consider the "Linhof like" Wista SP. It's much like a Wista, except that it's a little smaller. One advantage, it has the ability to use interchangeable bellows. (Bag versus accordion.) It's well built.

I had one for a bit and decided to return to my rail camera.

[Doremus Scudder]

Different styles of cameras have different strengths and were designed for different purposes.

Handheld 4x5? Get a press camera with rangefinder.
Interior architecture with ultra-wide lenses? Get a full-featured monorail with precision movements and interchangeable bellows.
Hiking/backpacking in rough terrain? Get a lightweight wooden folder and compact lenses.

You get the idea. Before you decide which camera you want, really think about how you want to use it. That will guide your decision.

"Hybrid" styles like the Master Technika or the other metal folders (and some full-featured wooden cameras) try to hit the middle ground between the flexibility and precision of a top-notch monorail and the field camera. The trade-offs are weight, flexibility, speed of operation; heavier than field cameras, less flexible than a monorail, slower than both. Sometimes these fit the bill just fine. I'd never carry one in the field, though...

FWIW, my Wista DXs fold with smaller lenses inside. I can even get the 240mm f/9 Fujinon A squeezed in on the old-style ones.

Most cameras will work in most situations. However, if you have any "special needs," you need to consider them in your choice.
Ask yourself if you need:

A really long bellows for lenses 300mm and up (a common 12" bellows will accommodate up to 240mm lenses well, even a 300mm on a top-hat board; longer than that and you need a telephoto lens or a much longer bellows).

Capacity for really wide lenses coupled with lots of movements (think interior architecture, etc.). A wide-angle bellows or interchangeable (or universal-style) bellows are really, really nice if you need lots of movement capability with lenses 90mm and shorter.

Lots of movements or not, and just what movements you consider essential (e.g., for me, I would never own a camera without some shift capability, plus I need front rise and swings/tilts of some kind on both standards). Also, be aware that most folding cameras come with base tilts only. If you really want/need axis tilts (I don't) look for models that have that as a feature.

A Graflok back for accessories. If so, then be sure the camera you get has one (many wooden folders don't).

A really lightweight camera. If so, you will need to compromise on features a bit. If you plan on just unpacking things from your car and carrying your equipment just a few feet to the shoot, then weight isn't an issue, so go for the full-featured models and bigger lenses. If you need the lightest possible kit, wooden and compact is the way to go along with compact lenses in the non-extreme focal lengths.

New, used, expensive, cheap, etc.

Finally, ask yourself which compromises you are willing to make. Every camera involves a compromise of some kind.

Best of luck and welcome back to the film world,

Doremus

[dbla]

This has been helpful. I wound up finding a nice wooden field camera locally with a lens so I grabbed that. Looking forward to shooting again soon!!

[r.e.]

Budget wise I’m looking at roughly 2k or less on a setup. “Setup” being camera, lens, holders, etc….


[EDIT: I posted this without seeing the post just above :). May as well leave it in case someone finds it useful in the future.]

Reading your first post and the above, you might consider an Arca-Swiss Discovery. Arca-Swiss sold the Discovery as an entry to its F-Line at a significant discount. I believe that the purpose of the discount, which was substantial, was to attract college photography and art students to the brand.

The camera is completely modular. I purchased one myself and over time acquired further components which enable me to set up the camera for both 4x5 and 8x10. I now have a 700mm bellows, with sufficient rail, in addition to the original Discovery bellows and rail. My longest lens is a 600mm Fujinon C. With the right components, the Discovery can also be set up for 6x9 and 5x7.

It is light and extremely easy to carry/transport. Stock, it comes with a 300mm rail. In Discovery mode, I just carry it by my side with one hand holding the centre of the rail and the standards hanging down. My widest lens is 120mm, but my understanding is that the Discovery bellows will take a 90mm. The main difference between the Discovery and the standard F-Line is that the front standard focus is not geared. It works by friction. Arca-Swiss U.S. representative Rod Kuklas wrote this detailed paragraph on the differences between the Discovery and the standard F-Line in 2018:

"The Discovery was made into late 1990's. It is recognizable by it soft yellow color knobs. The main difference to it from other F-line siblings, is the lack of geared focus on the front standard, and knob locks for lateral shift on both standards. It is a 171 series camera with basic carriers sporting swing and base tilt, as well as lateral shift and rise/fall, on both front and rear standards."

The friction focus works fine unless you need to make very fine adjustments. I eventually upgraded to geared focus, but that's because I started using macro lenses. Kuklak's statement that the Discovery is a 171 series camera refers to the fact that Arca-Swiss later moved from 171mm lens boards to 141mm boards. The 171mm boards are readily available.

[abruzzi]

"Hybrid" styles like the Master Technika or the other metal folders (and some full-featured wooden cameras) try to hit the middle ground between the flexibility and precision of a top-notch monorail and the field camera. The trade-offs are weight, flexibility, speed of operation; heavier than field cameras, less flexible than a monorail, slower than both. Sometimes these fit the bill just fine. I'd never carry one in the field, though...


I'm surprised you find the Technika and similar cameras slower than a wooden field camera. I've found exactly the opposite. I've found that I can setup my Technika with a lens pre-focused to infinity in about 2 minutes, less if it is a small lens that I leave installed.

Also, to the OP, I'll throw out a quick comment that while generalizations of "monorail" vs. "wooden field camera" vs. "techical camera" vs. "press camera" are useful, remember that specific cameras in each of those groups may upend those generalizations. For instance the general idea that monorails are large, heavy, and don't fold up well for transport, can be true, but the Technikardan 45 (just as an example) is small, of moderate weight, and folds up quite compact. Another example--many wooden folders are lighter than metal technical cameras, but my first large format camera--a Shen Hao HZX45--was a wooden folder, and while I didn't actually weigh it, holding it in one hand and the technika in the other, they basically feel identical.

[Mick Fagan]

This has been helpful. I wound up finding a nice wooden field camera locally with a lens so I grabbed that. Looking forward to shooting again soon!!

Wonderful news, when you have been using it for some time, please get back and tell us about it.

Mick.

[Vaughn]

This has been helpful. I wound up finding a nice wooden field camera locally with a lens so I grabbed that. Looking forward to shooting again soon!!

Excellent! The best camera is one you can get started with! Have fun!

[Doremus Scudder]

abruzzi,

Of course, I was generalizing broadly just for the sake of simplification and overview. The Technika is indeed one of the faster cameras to set up. However, I can get my Wista DX set up and be viewing an image in significantly less than two minutes if I need to; that's including setting up the tripod and digging the camera out of the bag. If I have to change the lens that's mounted on it, then a bit longer. The Technika does have the advantage of infinity stops though, so let's call it a draw :) Set up time is less of an issue with LF anyway.

And you're right about the heavy wooden folders too. I have a Zone VI that never gets carried far from the car. I keep it around because I can use my 450mm lens with it, but at 6+ pounds, it is twice as heavy (not to mention bulkier) than my lighter wooden folders.

We can subdivide the camera categories ad nauseum; each individual model has its differences from other cameras, but I think your 'generalizations of "monorail" vs. "wooden field camera" vs. "technical camera" vs. "press camera" ' categorization has merit.

@OP,

Have fun with your new acquisition! The best way to find out what features you really need is to spend time photographing.

Best,

Doremus

[abruzzi]

Of course, I was generalizing broadly just for the sake of simplification and overview. The Technika is indeed one of the faster cameras to set up. However, I can get my Wista DX set up and be viewing an image in significantly less than two minutes if I need to; that's including setting up the tripod and digging the camera out of the bag. If I have to change the lens that's mounted on it, then a bit longer. The Technika does have the advantage of infinity stops though, so let's call it a draw :) Set up time is less of an issue with LF anyway.

Fair enough. I had a bit of a less than ideal experience with my Shen Hao which has made me less trusting of wooden field cameras. Someone should loan me a /good/ wooden camera to reset my expectations on wood. ;) For me, the Shen Hao was slow, and never felt rigid. Everytime I inserted the film holder (or numerous other actions), something moved and the film holder had to be removed so I could reset it. When I upgraded to a Master Technika, the rigidity was what sold me on it. Locked down things stayed locked down. At the moment though, I mostly use the Technikardan which is definitly a slower camera, but using it makes me very happy.

[dbla]

Wonderful news, when you have been using it for some time, please get back and tell us about it.

Mick.

Shot a couple of sheets last night here ya go:

https://i.ibb.co/cDVv5gr/Negative-Lab-Pro-v2-2-0-Color-Model-B-W-Pre-Sat-3-Tone-Profile-LAB-Highlight-Soft-WB-Auto-Neutral-LU.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/bFqfCCV/Negative-Lab-Pro-v2-2-0-Color-Model-B-W-Pre-Sat-3-Tone-Profile-LAB-Standard-WB-Auto-Neutral-LUT-Fron.jpg

[kmallick]

looks like you are back to incredible-ness :)