Schneider Corp. of America (Kern) Gold Dot Dagor 14" f/8 (355/8)

[jurgenestanislao]

Hello,

I recently got handed down a Schneider GD Dagor and I wanted to seek the group's general consensus or feedback about this lens, real world pros and cons, and perhaps which application it shines the most.

I have done my fair share of research but it would be good to hear more recent feedback about it from those who've had experience using it from before and/or recently.

I have also read that Gold Dot Dagors are convertible, hence I would like to understand what that means and if it applies to my lens.

I shoot with an 11x14 Wisner Field Camera a d an 8x10 Deardorff.

Thanks!

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[Jim Noel]

The best answers for you will come when you try it on each camera.

[Drew Wiley]

You need to be more specific. There was more than one version of this. If it was indeed a Swiss-made Kern (Schneider US was merely the marketing entity), there was a single-coat version in Copal 3s shutter, and after that, the final multi-coated version most often seen in Compur 3 shutter. I disliked the Compur shutter because it had no T setting, and had a distinct buzz vibration to it.

These lenses have a tiny bit of focus shift wide open, so I recommend focussing them at f/11. The contrast rendering is high, especially the MC version, making subtle tonal distinctions exceptionally good. With color film, the balance is slightly warm. I've used both types. Unless you are pointing them head-on, with minimal movements, these lenses are scant on sufficient coverage for 11X14, but are quite suitable for most 8x10 applications. If it was "handed down" to you, you are quite lucky. Both now sell for very high prices.

There will be a problem attaching filters. I have simply made slip rings which slide over the front barrel and accept 67mm filters threads. But if you don't know how to do that, an outfit like SK Grimes could make one for you.

[jurgenestanislao]

The best answers for you will come when you try it on each camera.Agree.

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[jurgenestanislao]

You need to be more specific. There was more than one version of this. If it was indeed a Swiss-made Kern (Schneider US was merely the marketing entity), there was a single-coat version in Copal 3s shutter, and after that, the final multi-coated version most often seen in Compur 3 shutter. I disliked the Compur shutter because it had no T setting, and had a distinct buzz vibration to it.

These lenses have a tiny bit of focus shift wide open, so I recommend focussing them at f/11. The contrast rendering is high, especially the MC version, making subtle tonal distinctions exceptionally good. With color film, the balance is slightly warm. I've used both types. Unless you are pointing them head-on, with minimal movements, these lenses are scant on sufficient coverage for 11X14, but are quite suitable for most 8x10 applications. If it was "handed down" to you, you are quite lucky. Both now sell for very high prices.

There will be a problem attaching filters. I have simply made slip rings which slide over the front barrel and accept 67mm filters threads. But if you don't know how to do that, an outfit like SK Grimes could make one for you.Mine is mounted on an older Copal #3 shutter—i'm assuming it's the single coated one and does not have threads for screw in filters—thanks for reminding re: SK Grimes makes sense to have a slip on filter ring to adapt 67mm filters.

Thanks for sharing your experiences—seems like a fine lens, would take your tip ok focusing at f/11.

On the other hand saw an old brochure online saying GDD's are "convertible" lenses, I know some lenses are designed to work with both the front and rear elements or just one of them depending on the application—is this GDD of mine one of them?

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[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. Dagors are double anastigmats. All double anastigmats are convertible. How well single elements perform is an empirical question.

OP, whether a single element of your new treasure will perform well enough to satisfy you depends on your standards. So ask the lens, not us.

[Hugo Zhang]

That lens is good one for 8x10. You will have soft corners for 11x14 if you shoot at infinity. I found this out on a trip with my 11x14 camera a few years ago. Incredibly sharp where it covers. I use a 14" Trigor lens for my 11x14 camera now. Covers with sharp corners.

[Drew Wiley]

Dagors are symmetrical fully cemented 3/3, just like they have always been. Hence only four air-glass interfaces total. In fact, the MC Kern 14" had the highest contrast and greatest color saturation of ANY lens I have ever worked with, in any format. Frankly, it was just too over the top for the color chrome films I then used - too contrasty. That's why I switched to the single-coated version. I certainly would not classify them as convertible, especially given the very high quality characteristics the late Kern versions are relied upon for. Earlier dagors of that focal lengths were often put in bigger 4 or 5 shutters. And I suspect the reason the newer ones will not cover 11X14 as well is simply due to the mechanical vignetting of the smaller no.3 shutter. But that doesn't necessarily mean the older f/7.7 dagors had better corner performance at analogous working stops. Earlier on contact printing was more the norm, and many practitioners simply wouldn't have noticed qualitative loss further out.

A 355/9 G-Claron plastmat will give you a bigger image circle suitable for 11X14, distinctly better near-macro performance for close-ups, even better sharpness even at infinity, and significantly better tangential performance at serious front tilts or swings. I don't shoot 11X14, so use the still better yet analogous MC Fujinon A 360 in lightwt no. 1 shutter whenever those particular features are a priority. Trigors were process lenses and are no longer a secret, but came in barrel so need a supplemental shutter. But for portraiture and general landscape work, the dagor design has its own special look prized by many. Don't expect dreamy soft background blur or "bokeh" in out-of-focus portions; but there is still a kind of special tonality and edge rendering involved with these late Kern Dagors. And in terms of color film use - hue accuracy - wow!

Overall, a great 8x10 lens. And it might be suitable for straight-on 11X14 portraiture where the subject is mainly in the center of the image, with something like a soft studio backdrop behind.

[John Layton]

Years ago I tested the latest Swiss Kern versions of the 14" Gold Dot Dagor and 14" Blue Dot Trigor on 11x14, both purchased concurrently (test both, sent one back) from Lens and Repro in the mid 1980's. The Dagor's field curvature was visible on this format (although great for 8x10), while the Trigor was absolutely flat and sharp to the edges. Stellar. No focus shift. I'd taped strips of 35mm agfapan 25 to center and edges of an 11x14 film holder for these tests - and the Trigor tests stood up well to a series 3 50mm Leitz Summicron set at f/8 - on this same film. Amazing!

[neil poulsen]

So a
. . . Ask the lens, not us.

Still, there's nothing wrong with others sharing their experiences and perceptions. The OP might get insights that would otherwise be missed. And, it gives the rest of us a chance to put our knowledge on display.

[neil poulsen]

. . . These lenses have a tiny bit of focus shift wide open . . .

I knew it! That's why I sold mine for a price that was about double an amount, which itself was then considered a high price.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, I made the fumble of dropping my MC Kern with sweaty hands on a hot trail, and scratched the front coatings, but still sold it for more than it cost me brand new; and the purchaser (a dealer) still had to pay for the recoating before raising the price even more. I wanted the single-coat version anyway by that point, which was a lot more affordable then than now, even for a mint example. "Cult lenses".