Ilford Cooltone FB

[Greg Y]

Somewhere in another thread, Drew W mentioned in passing that he really liked Ilford's Cooltone paper. On a whim, I added some in my following B&H order. Sure enough I like it ....but haven't used enough of it to really pinpoint why it shines ....but IMO it does. I've used it in 8x10 & 16x20 with a range of negatives from subtle to contrasty, with both Ansco 130 & LPD. It's sure a gem with mountain scenes in bright light.I like it as much as the Warmtone & more than the Classic. It's snappy and the tones are clean and the tonal range seems to be long. Would anyone else who's used it a bunch care comment about the characteristics they like in Ilford Cooltone.

217386

[Drew Wiley]

Is that in the Bugaboos? I now routinely keep Cooltone on hand for all kinds of appropriate scenes, though part of my ongoing projects involves retrieving old high Sierra and Wind River Range negs and reprinting them, or just printing them for the first time, since some of them proved daunting to render back in Graded paper only days. I've also made a number of silver internegs from old 4X5 color chromes, which have come out quite rewarding on this particular paper. I routinely use gold toner afterwards for sake of real cooling. MGWT is the other paper I now routinely keep around, for sake of a different category of images; but it is sometimes appropriate even for mtn scenes if desert ranges are involved, or even to replicate more of a warm glow dawn effect to high altitude granite. But my old ice axe? I once routinely carried that, but now it's just hanging on a wall; and I recognize it will outlast not only me, but what little still remains of our glaciers here.

[JMO]

Thanks for this post, as I've had a box of 12x16in Ilford FB Cooltone in my dark room since I established it in 2014, but don't recall that I've actually used any of it. One reason for that is my favorite easel is a Saunders VT 1400 that's not designed for anything larger than 11x14in paper (but I have another LPL Saunders for up to 16x20in, which size paper I've also neglected). Now I'll have to use some of the FB Cooltone, and I'll report back here if I have anything worth adding. I usually lean toward Warmtone papers and use an Ansco 130 equivalent developer, or sometimes Dektol. ...

[Drew Wiley]

It will probably go somewhat annoyingly greenish in Dektol; you won't get a true neutral black. That also seems to be the case with other "cold tone" MQ developers. Fresh 130 works nicely. Amidol will do the trick, but there are some caveats.

[Greg Y]

Thanks Drew. Yes, the photo is in the Bugaboos. I've had the good fortune to spend hundreds of days there, both as an amateur and professional, ski touring and mountain climbing, and also heli-ski guiding for CMH Heli-skiing. It is one of those places that never loses its magic.

[Drew Wiley]

Well, maybe once the border opens back up, someday I'll be able to visit the Bugaboos myself, if I'm not already so old as to be mistaken for a limping local mountain goat. I'm still rolling the dice with respect to this summer or early fall, guessing where we'll be free from severe forest fire smoke. Couldn't get away from it anywhere last year.

[Greg Y]

Drew, I'm guessing we all have our fingers crossed. I still have the Wind Rivers on my hit list.

[Drew Wiley]

I did a two-weeker in the northern Winds two summers ago with 4x5 gear - saw more moose than people, but that's what I was hoping for. Three reasons why I might not opt for there again this year: exceptionally high gas prices; a climber friend of mine who warned that a particular section of it I want to photograph is likely seeing far more visitation by climbers during pandemic circumstances than normally (not the Cirque of the Towers; I wisely timed that trip a number of years ago for bad climbing weather/superb photo weather); and third, talking to Rangers recently here at Pt Reyes, on loan from Rock Mtn NP and its fire crews, telling me lots of bad fires have been already been sprouting in Colorado and Wyoming for several months now. But the Winds have ample big walls in certain portions with seemingly zero climbers around, if that's what you're after. The highest peaks like Gannett and Fremont do get routine visitation, as does Titcomb Basin and the Cirque. Still worth seeing.

The Winds per se do have dead pine stands, but these are relatively limited in size. But smoke coming in from other areas like the Absaroka Range or southern Idaho could be an issue. When I was last there, we were smelling smoke from a fire in the Wasatch Range in Utah. It spreads. Last year smoke from that monster fire in the over 8000 ft deep section of the San Joaquin River canyon just upriver from my home town reached all the way to Western Europe! The thermal cloud from that event was nearly 80,000 feet high for about a week, breaking all previously known records.

I'm waiting for my friend to return from his climbing in Wyoming with his usual sidekick, the former CEO of Black Diamond. As both photographers, we were planning on a two-weeker with some off-trail in Kings Canyon late summer; but drought conditions might make that dicey in sections. I'm nearly 72, so don't move as fast as I used to over long-haul terrain, especially with bulky camera gear along. Frankly, I'm getting lazy. But I'm looking for a little tune-up trip at high altitude soon, hoping it coincides with some stormy weather; but there's none on the forecast for July yet. Just storms of mosquitoes still.

[Greg Y]

Thanks for this post, as I've had a box of 12x16in Ilford FB Cooltone in my dark room since I established it in 2014, but don't recall that I've actually used any of it. One reason for that is my favorite easel is a Saunders VT 1400 that's not designed for anything larger than 11x14in paper (but I have another LPL Saunders for up to 16x20in, which size paper I've also neglected). Now I'll have to use some of the FB Cooltone, and I'll report back here if I have anything worth adding. I usually lean toward Warmtone papers and use an Ansco 130 equivalent developer, or sometimes Dektol. ...

JMO, I just finished some more prints with Cooltone & rather than open a new box of 11x14...I used some remaining Foma Variant 12x16. I've got some big easels.....but the 12x16" fits just inside the frame of the Saunders 11x14 easel (which was in position on the baseboard)....with the blades retracted all the way to the edges it works like a charm.

[JMO]

I'll check it out, thanks....

[esearing]

I never got the "cool" blueish tones out of ICt the way Agfa Brovira and Oriental Segul papers did in the 1980's. It turns really purple in Selenium for me, though I remember reading somewhere that someone got a mix of blue and purple tones along with a contrast boost. When I want slightly colder tones I use Bergger VC Glossy and fresh 130, but its pricey for not much difference than the Ilford MGFB classic Glossy and sometimes hard to find.

[John Layton]

I only use Cooltone FB rarely...but for certain subjects I find it very effective:

248403
Cooltone FB in Moersch SE-6

[Michael R]

I never got the "cool" blueish tones out of ICt the way Agfa Brovira and Oriental Segul papers did in the 1980's. It turns really purple in Selenium for me, though I remember reading somewhere that someone got a mix of blue and purple tones along with a contrast boost. When I want slightly colder tones I use Bergger VC Glossy and fresh 130, but its pricey for not much difference than the Ilford MGFB classic Glossy and sometimes hard to find.

One thing you can do is get some PMT (which is also the active ingredient in Moersch Finisher Blue). Add small amounts to any print developer and you get cold blue-black. Depending on how pronounced you want the shift to be, generally the warmer tone papers tend to change most. Tiny amounts can be used to just tweak or “neutralize” papers like MG Classic etc.

[Drew Wiley]

The only paper I've ever gotten a blue-black out of, without blue toning per se, was Polygrade V combined with a special MQ developer I brewed up for that exact purpose. I wouldn't call the ole DuPont papers or Brovira, or certainly not Oriental Seagull, blue-black papers, even using amidol developer. Azo could shift that direction. I have tweaked Bergger Neutral tone to a rich neutral black, and several other "neutral tone" papers too, which otherwise trend a bit warm.

The Bergger product jumps off the diving board into DMax a little faster than Cooltone does, more reminiscent of Seagull G but without that same image tone. I'm about to try Foma VC Neutral tone FB paper, which sounds somewhat flexible.

Ilford Cooltone just shot through the roof in price; so I need a workaround. And Classic just doesn't satisfy me the way MGWT does when I want to go warm.

[interneg]

One thing you can do is get some PMT (which is also the active ingredient in Moersch Finisher Blue). Add small amounts to any print developer and you get cold blue-black. Depending on how pronounced you want the shift to be, generally the warmer tone papers tend to change most. Tiny amounts can be used to just tweak or “neutralize” papers like MG Classic etc.

Ilford Multigrade developer also uses PMT from what I recall - not that I'd expect the incredibly precious defenders of Ansco 130 to accept that 130 is pretty chemically questionable (or at least reflective of the problems of an era of less precise formulation & chemical knowledge) given what is now known about developer components - and that Ilford did a lot of research in the 1990s into how to make significantly warmer and cooler results via specific developer alterations. Either way, MGCT is noticeably cold in Multigrade and can be made much colder.

[Drew Wiley]

The key ingredient of 130 is glycin. And 130 is NOT as cold tone developer, although you can tweak it a little cooler by increasing the hydroquinone and substituting benzotrizole for the KBr restrainer; but that pretty much spoils the look 130 is prized for. Rather, it's the warming effect of 130 when combined with a cold gold toner like GP-1 which creates a deep neutral black. Again, the proof is in the pudding, including with respect to MG Cooltone, which simply doesn't go truly black otherwise in my experience. Alternative MQ and PQ cold tone developers just lend that annoying greenish-inflected Dektol look to it.

[Michael R]

Ilford Multigrade developer also uses PMT from what I recall - not that I'd expect the incredibly precious defenders of Ansco 130 to accept that 130 is pretty chemically questionable (or at least reflective of the problems of an era of less precise formulation & chemical knowledge) given what is now known about developer components - and that Ilford did a lot of research in the 1990s into how to make significantly warmer and cooler results via specific developer alterations. Either way, MGCT is noticeably cold in Multigrade and can be made much colder.

I seem to remember some old SDSs for both Moersch SE3 and SE6 indicating PMT but that was a long time ago and the current SDSs for those developers do not list it - although that doesn’t mean much. In any case it’s a simple way to turn papers cold/blue-black by direct development without toning so I often mention it in threads that get into cold tones. I’ve never been able to dig anything definitive up regarding what path Ilford/Harman chose for the old Cooltone developer. There are hints but nothing certain.

[interneg]

I seem to remember some old SDSs for both Moersch SE3 and SE6 indicating PMT but that was a long time ago and the current SDSs for those developers do not list it - although that doesn’t mean much. In any case it’s a simple way to turn papers cold/blue-black by direct development without toning so I often mention it in threads that get into cold tones. I’ve never been able to dig anything definitive up regarding what path Ilford/Harman chose for the old Cooltone developer. There are hints but nothing certain.

I think the clues tend to suggest that PMT for cold, modified phenidones/ blends of phenidones for warm were the outcome of the research - along with hints about where ascorbates could be exploited. And as PMT is a routinely used emulsion additive anyway, it would not surprise me in the least if Ilford added the right amount of it (or similar categories of addenda) to MGCT that will synergise with Multigrade developer to deliver a visibly cold tone. I could be wrong, but didn't the CT developer from Ilford fall off the market before FBCT came to market?

What is interesting is the way you can track where Moersch seems to have derived quite a few of his formulae from, especially in the patent record - and where he deviates from the more solidly grounded science.


The key ingredient of 130 is glycin. And 130 is NOT as cold tone developer, although you can tweak it a little cooler by increasing the hydroquinone and substituting benzotrizole for the KBr restrainer; but that pretty much spoils the look 130 is prized for. Rather, it's the warming effect of 130 when combined with a cold gold toner like GP-1 which creates a deep neutral black. Again, the proof is in the pudding, including with respect to MG Cooltone, which simply doesn't go truly black otherwise in my experience. Alternative MQ and PQ cold tone developers just lend that annoying greenish-inflected Dektol look to it.

If Glycin really had the effects that people claim, it would be widely available. Instead, it's pretty obvious that the right PQ balance, alkalinity and choice of restrainers are far more effective. I can tell you that MG Cooltone delivers a properly chilly cold black in Ilford Multigrade with visually excellent Dmax, all of which are clearly obvious under an array of lighting conditions including ones that comply with reference standards (and interestingly it can be made to go chillier still with selenium, before it goes purple). Given that you have stated elsewhere that you have not used Dektol since well before FBCT came to market, and that Multigrade developer has chemically significant variance from Dektol, and that Ilford will have used Multigrade as their reference while building FBCT, I think any reasonable person has very solid grounds for scepticism about your dismissal of anything other than the fetishistic cults of Ansco 130 and Amidol.

[Michael R]

I think the clues tend to suggest that PMT for cold, modified phenidones/ blends of phenidones for warm were the outcome of the research - along with hints about where ascorbates could be exploited. And as PMT is a routinely used emulsion additive anyway, it would not surprise me in the least if Ilford added the right amount of it (or similar categories of addenda) to MGCT that will synergise with Multigrade developer to deliver a visibly cold tone. I could be wrong, but didn't the CT developer from Ilford fall off the market before FBCT came to market?


Yes the CT developer was out of production for several years before FBCT came along. There was Ilford MG Cooltone RC paper during the CT developer era, but I don’t know if that paper was the same as the current version. Ilford’s instructions for using the CT developer with the CT RC paper were quite specific: Development times were longer than for the other RC papers (along with a longer indicated induction time) and the stated throughput capacity of CT developer was substantially reduced when paired with the CT paper versus other RC papers.

After CT developer was discontinued people on APUG kept asking Simon Galley for the formula. He eventually did raise the topic at Harman but the answer came back that it could not be disclosed mostly for IP reasons - one of the ingredients was a proprietary compound made in house by Harman R&D.

[esearing]

where does one buy PMT (PhenylMercaptoTetrazole) ? I once got a blue tone with contaminated LPD + Selenium (or possibly Thiourea) in a second bath tray, but I never tried to replicate it. I have been wanting to try Moersch Blue Toner just to see what it does, especially with Foma papers which have a weird color to start with.

[Michael R]

where does one buy PMT (PhenylMercaptoTetrazole) ? I once got a blue tone with contaminated LPD + Selenium (or possibly Thiourea) in a second bath tray, but I never tried to replicate it. I have been wanting to try Moersch Blue Toner just to see what it does, especially with Foma papers which have a weird color to start with.

Currently the easiest way to obtain PMT is to buy Bellini from Freestyle:

https://www.freestylephoto.com/2510049-Bellini-Antifog-Paper-5-Gram

Or buy a bottle of Moersch Finisher Blue developer additive which contains it.

Alternatively it might be worth contacting Artcraft. While it is not in their catalog they seem to be open to acquiring things. For example they recently started selling DTPA following a request, and at a reasonable price.

Formulary used to sell it in handy methanol solutions but they haven’t stocked it for several years now.

[Drew Wiley]

LOTS of people use glycin, Interneg. That is no coincidence. Fresh glycin is easy to get from Formulary. But any reserve of it should be kept frozen or it will shift. But going back a few decades when a lot of these reformulation things were going on, I just drove down the street to the local chemical supply house, and they always had high-quality glycin and amidol on hand. Yes, they catered to darkroom workers; but the bulk of their business was in relation to pharmaceutical manufacturers and medical research applications. So they even sold different quality grades of these chemicals. The photographic amidol and glycin they sold was actually the top grade! Most of it back then was actually manufactured by Spectrum. In other words, the whole 130 glycin thing isn't just a passing fad; it has a solid pedigree.

[interneg]

one of the ingredients was a proprietary compound made in house by Harman R&D.

That was my recollection too - I would not be surprised if something similar made its way into the emulsion for the FBCT - in fact it would make a lot of sense as it would make the emulsion colour much less developer sensitive. There's a fair few Ilford patents both for modified Phenidones & PMT going back a long way (and Ilford had a sufficiently large interest in mercaptans to have a research group working on them, who according to oral history accounts, were so memorably bad smelling that people who shared buses with them complained about it). The RC CT is somewhat different - it is quite possible that the costs of harmonising the ranges was greater than the sales of RC CT would support. There's also some really interesting hints in the patent literature about the desirable inhibition effects of PMT in film developers (and taken into a product in the form of Ilfosol 3).


LOTS of people use glycin, Interneg. That is no coincidence. Fresh glycin is easy to get from Formulary. But any reserve of it should be kept frozen or it will shift. But going back a few decades when a lot of these reformulation things were going on, I just drove down the street to the local chemical supply house, and they always had high-quality glycin and amidol on hand. Yes, they catered to darkroom workers; but the bulk of their business was in relation to pharmaceutical manufacturers and medical research applications. So they even sold different quality grades of these chemicals. The photographic amidol and glycin they sold was actually the top grade! Most of it back then was actually manufactured by Spectrum. In other words, the whole 130 glycin thing isn't just a passing fad; it has a solid pedigree.

Glycin and Amidol's continued existence has essentially nil to do with photography and everything to do with other uses in analytical and organic chemistry - at a scale sufficient for some fine chemicals supplier(s) to produce them & flog them off through the usual suspects as well as some retailers like the Photographers Formulary. If they had meaningful effects other that that could be achieved by fine tuning PQ, MQ, alkalinity, restrainers/ inhibitors etc (and large scale regression analysis seems to have been done on this by the 70s/80s across the industry) they would be turning up in the patent literature. What is clear is that Ilford etc will happily produce a specialist component (e.g. a modified phenidone) if it has a meaningful effect that cannot be achieved by other means. That they abandoned glycin (a substituted metol) is rather suggestive of a better understanding having been found of its mechanism of action- and that it could be achieved by less complex means. Ansco 130 owes much of its reputation to an influencer from California, not to double blind print sampling.

[Drew Wiley]

What a cynic! I found amidol quite useful in a manner not duly served by typical MQ and PQ developers back when Bromide graded papers were still around. Not much anymore during the current reign of VC papers. Formulary bought up a bunch of cheap Chinese amidol which is hell to work with due to its stubborn orange contamination stain (nickel??). I got more of the good Euro amidol from Artcraft in NYC instead.

Formulary makes their own glycin for sake of both freshness and constant demand. You aren't the only chemist of the planet. Nobody is flogging a surplus of it on them. But that idea does deserve to be flogged. You want it fresh to begin with.

Double blind? Yep. Ya gotta be blind in both eyes not to detect certain real differences. I'm very particular about final image tone. I don't know where you come up with the folklore of 130 being a California thing. Now it's made in Montana where they throw rocks at any of us with Calif. license plates. AA only elliptically referred to it as producing an interesting staining effect which some people find rewarding. And he was NOT a stickler for image tone - more a Dektol addict - but could at least he could detect something special when present. For one thing, glycin can be partially aged just like a fine wine for sake of the amount of the stain effect, at least up till a certain point.

Then you've got the whole matter of economics. There are bottled liquid formulas to mimic amidol like BW-65, and cold-toned PQ tweaks too, designed to mimic this or that. And they might make sense from a convenience point of view for sake of those unwilling to mix their own ingredients. But mix it yerself is way more affordable. Same reason I'm reluctant to spend top dollar on premixed Moersch products, although I'm glad they are available for sake of many other folks.

And I don't really care if it's chemistry or alchemy that gets the job done. I'm interested in the final visual result. (Yeah, I had 3 yrs of organic chem in college - but all that is worth forgetting in this case; and I'm an expert in forgetting). And if glycin is "substitute metol," how come the 130 formula requires both?

[esearing]

Not a double blind sample but a tested preference - I tested the same prints in LPD, Ilford Multigrade , PF Liquidol, and PF130 side by side on 3 different papers over a period of several weeks. Multigrade and Liquidol were blah comapred to the other two, mushy in middle tones. LPD dilute gives a warm-neutral not achieving max black, but seems to have greater detail in the highlights, which works for some images. Fresh PF 130 just popped compared to all the others for my typical waterfall shots. I even ripped a sheet in half and compared it to liquidol to make sure it wasn't anticipation bias. Today I tend to use 130 1:2 or even mix old with new to get less pop out of it especially with warmtone papers where I want a softer older appearance. LPD seems to be out of stock when I need it or the stock solution goes off after about a year. They changed from cans to plastic bags for packaging and it doesn't seem to keep as well.

[mihag]

Not a double blind sample but a tested preference - I tested the same prints in LPD, Ilford Multigrade , PF Liquidol, and PF130 side by side on 3 different papers over a period of several weeks. Multigrade and Liquidol were blah comapred to the other two, mushy in middle tones. LPD dilute gives a warm-neutral not achieving max black, but seems to have greater detail in the highlights, which works for some images. Fresh PF 130 just popped compared to all the others for my typical waterfall shots. I even ripped a sheet in half and compared it to liquidol to make sure it wasn't anticipation bias. Today I tend to use 130 1:2 or even mix old with new to get less pop out of it especially with warmtone papers where I want a softer older appearance. LPD seems to be out of stock when I need it or the stock solution goes off after about a year. They changed from cans to plastic bags for packaging and it doesn't seem to keep as well.

Can you name the papers?

[interneg]

Not a double blind sample but a tested preference - I tested the same prints in LPD, Ilford Multigrade , PF Liquidol, and PF130 side by side on 3 different papers over a period of several weeks. Multigrade and Liquidol were blah comapred to the other two, mushy in middle tones. LPD dilute gives a warm-neutral not achieving max black, but seems to have greater detail in the highlights, which works for some images. Fresh PF 130 just popped compared to all the others for my typical waterfall shots. I even ripped a sheet in half and compared it to liquidol to make sure it wasn't anticipation bias. Today I tend to use 130 1:2 or even mix old with new to get less pop out of it especially with warmtone papers where I want a softer older appearance. LPD seems to be out of stock when I need it or the stock solution goes off after about a year. They changed from cans to plastic bags for packaging and it doesn't seem to keep as well.

And did you try Multigrade or Liquidol at 1+6 or 1+4?

At 1+1, 130 has something like 50% more carbonate than Dektol/ D-72 at 1+2, nearly triple the amount of KBr, and more developing agents. A reasonable test would be to pull the bromide in D-72 up to level with 130, and then do a metol concentration series (of at least 2, 3, 4, 5g, preferably many more) and see if you can match 130. Better yet, do the same with Phenidone at 0.2, 0.3, 0.4, 0.5g etc - and while you're at it, take a look at Ilford's approaches with ID-78 (which firmly post-dates 130) and Kodak Ltd's D-163.


amidol which is hell to work with due to its stubborn orange contamination stain (nickel??).


For one thing, glycin can be partially aged just like a fine wine for sake of the amount of the stain effect, at least up till a certain point.

They're both effectively forming couplers via oxidation - for which properties Kodak seem to have investigated them thoroughly. And if they went that deep into them, they will have run many B&W developer test series too. The real magic comes from HQMS salts (whether formed in situ or added as a specific ingredient from the outset).


Formulary makes their own glycin for sake of both freshness and constant demand.

Whether they are supplying to or from TCI, glycin is (by organic synthesis standards) merely relatively nasty to make - which is a way of saying that it would be more widely made if there was real evidence that it was doing something that optimised M:Q or P:Q ratios couldn't. The fact that Ilford went down their own synthesis routes to something else rather than an established one to a long known ingredient should tell you what you need to know about what is actually effective with modern emulsions and what isn't.


Then you've got the whole matter of economics. There are bottled liquid formulas to mimic amidol like BW-65, and cold-toned PQ tweaks too, designed to mimic this or that. And they might make sense from a convenience point of view for sake of those unwilling to mix their own ingredients. But mix it yerself is way more affordable. Same reason I'm reluctant to spend top dollar on premixed Moersch products, although I'm glad they are available for sake of many other folks.

BW-65 is supposed to be a phenidone-130. And Moersch is effectively attempting to use the framework of E-6's first developer and some knowledge that can be traced to patents that have not really seen proper commercialisation (there's a fair bit out there that Ilford doesn't seem to have ever brought to market, for example - same witg Agfa). There's plenty out there that clearly shows the R&D labs worked out what glycin is doing, and how to get there better.


And if glycin is "substitute metol," how come the 130 formula requires both?

Because it probably was easier to adjust quantities of glycin rather than adjust the M:Q ratio - and/ or Ansco's researchers did not know how to exploit M:Q relationships. There are some documentary accounts of people working for Ansco in the 1930s and they were only slowly scientising (relative to Kodak for example), so a lot of these formulae need to be seen as driven by haphazard luck - i.e. someone was working on a developer, added some Glycin on a guess, got an improvement, added more until it got worse again, but did not have a more fundamental understanding of what glycin was doing, and how to get the same effect with fewer ingredients. Much of that knowledge would not be gained until the 1950s and does not seem to have percolated out beyond the silver curtains of the big manufacturers' R&D till the 1970s.

[John Layton]

Major PTSD taking hold here - fears about that dream coming back...the one where I show up for my organic chem final having done absolutely nothing to prepare - and I'm really late so that everyone looks up at me...just as I look down and...oh, no - my pants...I'm not wearing pants! :eek:

[Drew Wiley]

Interneg - you're mixing up marketing incentives and chemistry per se in your last glycin comments. The FACT is that the demand IS there, and specifically for sake of photo related purposes needing fresh powder. And effective recipes don't always necessarily need a hard chemistry pedigree. Alchemy is just fine, even if a toe of newt in the same cauldron happens to be redundant. What works, works. The endpoint isn't a textbook, but visually successful prints with something special about them. Do you think Michelangelo had access to a mass-spectrometer when choosing his pigments for the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel?

The most disappointing thing about this tit for tat chemistry substitution discussion is that it rarely even recognizes what some of us consider very important in terms of subtle image tone control, and specifically in relation to current papers. What might seem inconsequential to a chemist might be a big deal indeed to a meticulous craftsmen.

And even some "accidents" might be happy ones. Even that toe of newt might have somehow factored in, whether you can explain the reason or not.

For example, specific formulas which seem to obtain identical results under standardized parameters, such as 20C, might diverge in terms of specific ingredient activity at nonstandard temperatures. Hydroquinone behaves like that; and its effect on final image tone can be altered by differences in developing temperatures - significantly enough to throw a curve ball at Ilford Cooltone paper itself, which I've seen to almost split-tone in an unpleasing sense due to that, or maybe in a pleasing sense instead. Not every image and composition is the same in terms of what paper developer regimen is ideal for it.

Likewise, some images work best only when the glycin is the freshest and gives the coolest result. In other images, you might want glycin powder which has age oxidized for a few month first. Such subtle differences can have a real impact turning merely acceptable prints into great ones or not.

[esearing]

Can you name the papers?
I even documented some of my early tests with Liquidol https://www.searing.photography/liquidol-paper-developer/ and Ilford Multigrade https://www.searing.photography/review-ilford-multigrade-developer/
And this test between Warmtone developers https://www.searing.photography/testing-lpd-vs-pf106/ with a 2 bath test resulting in a blueish color.

Ilford MGFB Classic Glossy
Ilford MGFB WarmTone Glossy
Bergger VC NB

[Michael R]

I even documented some of my early tests with Liquidol https://www.searing.photography/liquidol-paper-developer/ and Ilford Multigrade https://www.searing.photography/review-ilford-multigrade-developer/
And this test between Warmtone developers https://www.searing.photography/testing-lpd-vs-pf106/ with a 2 bath test resulting in a blueish color.

Ilford MGFB Classic Glossy
Ilford MGFB WarmTone Glossy
Bergger VC NB

The split development experiment that produced the cold tones is interesting. I wonder what the mechanism would have been there.

[Drew Wiley]

What I found is that with Cooltone per se, and certain other papers, you actually get a more consistent cold tone by developing it in ordinary 130 first, then by gold toning it afterwards (similar to GP1, though I have my own more affordable tweak on that). Whenever I tried a cold-tone developer per se, typically with a benzotriazole restrainer rather then KBr, along with the "usual suspect" cooling ingredients, the results were not as clean a black as I wanted. I haven't tried any PMT yet.

VC papers aren't as predictably simple in this respect as classic old graded papers. You've obviously got two or even three emulsions to content with, rather than just one, and they don't always stay on the same track in terms of exact hue. And it can take a fair amount of experimentation and experience to master any unfamiliar new paper.

Conspicuous split toning, with warm versus blue-black in the same image is something else entirely. I've done that with numerous "neutral" as well as warm papers. MGWT is especially cooperative in that respect. But two or even three subsequent toning steps might be involved.

[mihag]

I even documented some of my early tests with Liquidol https://www.searing.photography/liquidol-paper-developer/ and Ilford Multigrade https://www.searing.photography/review-ilford-multigrade-developer/
And this test between Warmtone developers https://www.searing.photography/testing-lpd-vs-pf106/ with a 2 bath test resulting in a blueish color.

Ilford MGFB Classic Glossy
Ilford MGFB WarmTone Glossy
Bergger VC NB

Thanks.

[esearing]

The split development experiment that produced the cold tones is interesting. I wonder what the mechanism would have been there.

There may have been other contaminates in the tray I was not aware of. I doubt that the Benzotriazole supposedly in LPD made a difference as LPD does not produce blueish tones. Or could be that the shock of two different developers interacting/replenishing caused it. I do know that adding selenium or thiourea to PF130 has no impact on color.

[PRJ]

Glycin makes a difference in tonality. I call it the "Glycin bump". In negatives it brightens the upper midtones and in prints it makes lower midtones richer. I've observed that with multiple developers, films and papers. It is there.

The bluest tone I ever got developing paper straight was with a strong Agfa Neutol back in the late 90s, the version that wasn't NE or WA (might have been eco?) and Forte MG (not polywamtone). The prints looked almost like they were blue toned. Quite striking.

[interneg]

Glycin makes a difference in tonality. I call it the "Glycin bump". In negatives it brightens the upper midtones and in prints it makes lower midtones richer. I've observed that with multiple developers, films and papers. It is there.

The bluest tone I ever got developing paper straight was with a strong Agfa Neutol back in the late 90s, the version that wasn't NE or WA (might have been eco?) and Forte MG (not polywamtone). The prints looked almost like they were blue toned. Quite striking.

And you don't think that any other developer at a stronger dilution with more metol or phenidone wouldn't do incredibly similar things? There seems to be pretty fundamental ignorance that a developer with about 32g of carbonate/ litre in recommended working solution (1+1) and more developing agent is going to be rather more active than one with 22g/l and less developing agent in the 1+2 working solution.

For the record, things like ID-78 and all the Neutols (you can find them in the patent literature) thoroughly post-date Agfa/ Ansco 130 - and I would be more surprised if 130 was not part of comparative testing than if it was.

[John Layton]

Would be interesting if someone threw some of Moersch's developers into their testing routines. For me, I've had great luck with different combos of Ilford's (WT/CT/Classic) papers and Moersch developers - specifically 4812 and SE-6. Have not tried his warm-tone version yet, but have not felt the need.

[Drew Wiley]

Much of this " formula this versus formula that" debate ignores how the respective emulsion layers of a VC paper shift in relation to each other not only with respect to exposing light color, but also processing temperature differences. This impacts final, or at least pre-toning, image color, including the semi-split tone look of Cooltone in typical MQ or PQ developers. That is the kind of question largely being ignored by a "chemistry only" approach. Merlin knows better.

The old Neutol look is completely different from what 130 provides on current papers. But that involves two different sets of variables - an obsolete developer on obsolete paper versus a very much alive developer on present paper.

130 calls for 80g/liter of sodium carbonate. I use 130 at 1:3 dilution. That's the sweet spot for me.

Substituting benz. for KBr at 1/10 gram weight, or using both together, does shift the initial image color cooler; but it's just the reverse when you gold chloride tone the paper afterwards. The safety data sheet for the PMT available from Freestyle doesn't mention any benzotriazole at all in it.

It's just not realistic for my budget to test various pre-mixed developers. Paper by itself has already increased dramatically in price.

[Michael R]

Drew, PMT is short for Phenyl Mercapto Tetrazole. The whole point is it isn’t Benzotriazole (which does pretty much nothing as far as image colour is concerned) although it is related.

[interneg]

130 calls for 80g/liter of sodium carbonate. I use 130 at 1:3 dilution. That's the sweet spot for me.


Monohydrate, not anhydrous. If you've been using 80g/l of anhydrous, then that's a bit of a problem for any meaningful comparisons.

[Michael R]

Would be interesting if someone threw some of Moersch's developers into their testing routines. For me, I've had great luck with different combos of Ilford's (WT/CT/Classic) papers and Moersch developers - specifically 4812 and SE-6. Have not tried his warm-tone version yet, but have not felt the need.

I sort of did this back when Ilford introduced the reformulated papers, although the Moersch developers I used in the experiments were only the Warmtone, SE-3, and SE-6. I documented some of it including experiments with PMT on APUG but that’s long gone. Anyhow the short version for what it’s worth is I found (somewhat surprisingly) objectively the Moersch developers did what they advertised - as opposed to most everything else out there including the silly Cookbook antiquities which are good for pretty much nothing but historical documentation.

[Drew Wiley]

Michael - Benz restrainer (vs KBr) DOES typically print shift image color cooler. This has been known for a very long time, and I've personally experimentally known about it for decades in relation to my own work with multiple papers. The proof is easily visible. But like I already mentioned, that relationship can reverse or invert when gold toning is involved afterwards.

Interneg - Yes, monohydrate. That's what typically used for the formulation. I don't know about early literature. Mono is more readily available here.

[Michael R]

Michael - Benz restrainer (vs KBr) DOES typically print shift image color cooler. This has been known for a very long time, and I've personally experimentally known about it for decades in relation to my own work with multiple papers.

I think “…known for a very long time,…” is the key phrase. A hundred years ago, maybe.

[Drew Wiley]

Just as true today as back then. If I mixed up with and without solutions ten minutes from now and printed the same image using each respective developer, it would still be a valid statement. Besides, we're talking about Cooltone paper in particular here, which hasn't been around all that long. I've tested all kinds of developer tweaks with it, including 130 formulas using different restrainers, along with mixed amounts of the two in question (benz vs Kbr).
Nice try, however. Maybe you'll land a fish next time.

[Michael R]

You should really have one of them YouTube channels.

[Drew Wiley]

I might watch U Tube if you tell me how to link onto your Fishing tutorials. I think you need better bait.

[Michael R]

I’m telling you, you’d have the best YouTube photography channel by a country mile, and you’d be a YouTube star.

[Drew Wiley]

Zzzzzzz .... snore .... zzzz.