Which field camera for usage with 90mm lens

[Times2]

Hi,

I'm looking into buying my first LF camera, a field camera (mainly due to its size), with the intention to use it with some 90mm lens. Movements are the main reason why I'm buying it. Due to their beds, I dont know which field camera can enable me a decent range of movements and which accessories (like recessed lens boards) are needed. Field camera caught my attention due to being somewhat cheap and portable.In case you have tried or know some which will work with no major restriction in camera movements I would very much appreciate your info.:)
Thanks!

[Peter De Smidt]

I use a 90mm with my Toyo AX without any issues.

[Benjamin]

I have a Linhof Super Technika IV with a Schneider Super Angulon 90mm F/8 with a recessed board. Using such a huge 90mm on the Technika IV is a bit awkward but manageable. I don't use it that much, but if 90mm were my choice lens, I'd go for a Technika V the next time.

Kerry Thalmann has some great suggestions for smaller, lightweight lenses, including 90mm, but they are not that easy to come by. http://www.thalmann.com/largeformat/lightwei.htm

I'm pretty sure most standard 4x5 field cameras can handle a 90mm lens with decent movements. Depending on your budget, you can find a good Toyo 45A II, Linhof Technika V or a Wista 45SP fairly easily on the used market.

[Times2]

I use a 90mm with my Toyo AX without any issues.

Which lens are you using? Are you using it with a special lens board?


@Benjamin,

How much recessed board needs to be recessed for Technika IV?

[Jody_S]

I had some difficulty using a 90/5.6 on a Zone VI (not sure whuch model), because of the small lensboard size. I had to remove the rear element to mount the lens board, remove the camera back then reach in through the bellows to reattach the rear element. PITA. But I did get reasonable movements.

[AJ Edmondson]

The Wista SP. VX, D are not great with a 90mm. They can be used straight-on but don't allow much movement and, even with a recessed board are not ideal. Best camera I have seen with a 90mm is the Calumet (CC402?) which is a monorail (admittedly short monorail) and can be had for about $150. The Wisner Tech Field (with normal bellows) will work but is a bit of a pain. OK with bag bellows. The Canham DLC is great with virtually all of the short focal length lenses (as well as longer focal lengths) but is quite expensive.
Joel

[cuypers1807]

No problems with my Chamonix 045N-2 using a 90mm. Recessed board not needed.

[Times2]

@cuypers1807

Initially I thought I was going to purchase Chamonix 045N-2 but its price (1500$) combined with 30% of tax made me look towards something more affordable.


The Wista SP. VX, D are not great with a 90mm. They can be used straight-on but don't allow much movement and, even with a recessed board are not ideal. Best camera I have seen with a 90mm is the Calumet (CC402?) which is a monorail (admittedly short monorail) and can be had for about $150. The Wisner Tech Field (with normal bellows) will work but is a bit of a pain. OK with bag bellows. The Canham DLC is great with virtually all of the short focal length lenses (as well as longer focal lengths) but is quite expensive.
Joel

Are there any restrictions with Wista SP in terms of movement with 90mm? Do I need a recessed lens board?

As for now it seems Wista SP and Toyo AX are in the mix.

[Willie]

Linhof Technikas have work well for David Muench and so many other Landscape Photographers for decades. Many similar cameras on the marketplace. A lot of lightweight wooden cameras will have the movements you think you want.
Or, try an older wide angle Calumet monorail. Easy to work with, lightweight and designed for wide angle lenses - a choice many Architectural photographers used for a long time.

[Benjamin]

I never use the Wista because mine has a small problem in the back - and I do prefer the feel of the Technika -, but, as you can see, plenty of range with the movements (rise shown with the 90mm).

After that, of course, it's a matter of making sure you have a large enough image circle to do the movements you want to do.

If you were in Montreal I'd let you take it out for a spin. :cool:

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[Benjamin]

As a P.S. to my previous post, not sure a recess board is needed. Mine came with the lens. You should do a search about that. Plenty of people with a lot more knowledge than me can answer. As I said, I never use the 90mm, generally starting at 125mm and up.

[jim_jm]

I've had a Shen Hao TZ45-IIb and have been able to use 90mm lenses without much problem with the stock bellows. Many 4x5 Shen Hao cameras have the capability to replace the standard bellows with a bag bellows, which allows for much more movement and wider lenses. If I used the 90 more, or wanted to use a 75, I would opt for the bag bellows. They've got a few current models (4x5 Field cameras) with bellows extensions of 50mm or less, I'm assuming with the standard bellows installed.
If you look for one on the used market, this may fall within your price range. The new prices on these have more than doubled since I bought mine 15 years ago. Here's a listing at Badger Graphic Sales (https://www.badgergraphic.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=2_22).

[Bernice Loui]

Majority of 4x5 field folder view cameras can easily deal with a 90mm lens with varying degrees of camera movement often limited by the camera and standard bellows as a pair. If the image goals are the current fashion of outdoor landscapes on a hike or similar, the camera movements required using a 90mm lens is most often modest at most. This is one of the reasons why field folder cameras are made they way they are and have limited camera movements, standard bellows, lowest weight and all that. Field folder view cameras are a specific tool designed and intended for a specific image making goal.

Current fashion and market demand drives market values and prices on stuff like this, or why field folder view cameras have become IMO so very pricy for what they are in this current world of view cameras.

If a field folder is pressed into camera movement demanding images such as architectural photography, non-standard studio view camera images and such, the light weight field folder view camera will meet with very serious camera limitations due to it's inherent design and intended way of being used. This is where a GOOD monorail camera is a FAR better choice. The monorail view camera is the far less desirable-fashionable view camera of today partly due to market inertia and found on countless web pages-videos of what defines today's view camera. It is also why GOOD monorail cameras remain lower cost today. Keep in mind, demanding camera movements demand lenses with enough image circle to meet this demand.

Given the mention of needing camera movements, question is how much and what kind of images will be your goals?

What other lenses will this camera be expected to be used with?

As for recesses ad top hat lens boards, IMO absolute pain in the user as these are camera band-aid helpers in an attempt to cure a problem designed into the camera. Recessed lens boards often bring on difficulty of accessing the shutter and related. Top hat lens boards results in a lens and board combo that can be the equal of a camera that was capable of using the lens on a flat lens board with no helper aids.



Bernice








Hi,

I'm looking into buying my first LF camera, a field camera (mainly due to its size), with the intention to use it with some 90mm lens. Movements are the main reason why I'm buying it. Due to their beds, I dont know which field camera can enable me a decent range of movements and which accessories (like recessed lens boards) are needed. Field camera caught my attention due to being somewhat cheap and portable.In case you have tried or know some which will work with no major restriction in camera movements I would very much appreciate your info.:)
Thanks!

[Peter De Smidt]

Which lens are you using? Are you using it with a special lens board?





Rodenstock Grandagon 90mm f/6.8 on a flat board.

[Benjamin]

As for recesses ad top hat lens boards, IMO absolute pain in the user as these are camera band-aid helpers in an attempt to cure a problem designed into the camera. Recessed lens boards often bring on difficulty of accessing the shutter and related.

This. Accessing the switch to open and close the shutter on the recess board is a PITA.

Plus, I had to buy a special - i.e., expensive - Linhof shutter release cable that would fit on the older style board.

Bernice is right. Amount of movements really depend on what you want to do. I mostly do landscape and portraits and therefore use very little movements - mostly tilt for focus and a bit of rise.

I've seen interesting effects done in landscape with wide-angle lenses using back movements, which, if that's your goal, shouldn't be a problem with most cameras mentioned int the thread.

[Doremus Scudder]

While the Technikas are great and well-made cameras, I'm not sure they fall into the price category that the OP is interested in.

Also, we need to better define "field camera." Metal cameras like Technikas and the Wista and Toyo metal cameras are heavy and often have more limited movements than wooden folding field cameras.

In my mind, a "field camera" is a lightweight wooden folder. Metal folding cameras are hybrids; more portable than a full-featured monorail, but not nearly as packable and transportable in the field (not to mention backpacking) as a wooden folding camera.

Wooden folders, on the other hand, are often less fully-featured and may not have the precision movements that a metal camera has.

@OP,

If you are only planning on doing landscape work with your 90mm lens, most folding cameras will fit the bill. On the other hand, if you (like me) do a lot of interior and architectural work that requires a lot of front rise and other movements, then you may want to look at cameras with wide-angle bellows of some kind, either a bag bellows or a "universal"-type bellows that is part bag bellows and part pleated bellows. While many of the cameras with standard pleated bellows will accommodate 90mm lenses, movements may be limited by bellows compression, even with a recessed lensboard. If you're using extreme movements a lot, a wide-angle bellows of some kind will make your life a lot easier (or look at cameras with short bellows designed for wide-angle use like the Shen Hao TFC45; just be aware that longer lenses won't work on them at all).

Many of the Shen Hao models advertise bellows draw from 50mm upward and would certainly be able to focus a 90mm lens. A recessed board will afford more movement with the standard pleated bellows too, and therefore, may do fine for your needs. Wista DX cameras and Tachihara cameras would be similar. I use a Wista DX with a 90mm lens all the time and use rather extreme movements at times, crimping the bellows when needed. That said, I really, really love my Wista SW with interchangeable bellows. With the wide-angle bellows mounted, I can more than use all the 235mm of image circle my 90mm f/8 Nikkor SW offers.

Here's a photo of it in action:217354

As you can see, I've used point-and-tilt to get even more front rise and lateral shift as well. I was at the edge of the 229mm of coverage on my 135mm Wide-field Ektar.

Several Chamonix cameras come with universal bellows, which also have rather long total bellows draw, making them very versatile. I've never hand my hands on one, but I'd look at them seriously if I needed another 4x5 camera.

If you're looking to buy used (which I'd recommend) then patience may be your best friend in finding what you want. I waited a long time for the Wista SW to come up; they're fairly rare.

Hope this helps a bit,

Doremus

[Luis-F-S]

Any camera that you can place the front and rear frames 90mm or less apart should work. I believe that would include many (most) 4x5 field cameras.

[Two23]

I routinely use a Nikon 90mm f4.5 on my Chamonix 045N with universal bellows. No problem at all. I even use a 75mm with that camera & bellows.


Kent in SD

[Times2]

I'm planning to use it for images of interiors and houses. I really want those parallel lines:) But I would also like to be able to shot portraits (ofc with a different lens). I'm not big on long lenses if that matters.
Horseman L45 although monorail entered my mind. Still not sure what to think of it, mainly due to how time-consuming it seems to assemble and disassemble it and ofc its weight.
Choosing LF camera seems like a mandatory compromise:)

[Two23]

I'm planning to use it for images of interiors and houses. I really want those parallel lines:) But I would also like to be able to shot portraits (ofc with a different lens). I'm not big on long lenses if that matters.
Horseman L45 although monorail entered my mind. Still not sure what to think of it, mainly due to how time-consuming it seems to assemble and disassemble it and ofc its weight.
Choosing LF camera seems like a mandatory compromise:)


A monorail camera has the most movements and usually more accessory options. Good for architecture and "product" shots. But they are a pain in the ass to hike with. Best for studio or location use. A field camera is a great general purpose camera. If you're working in a studio most of the time a monorail is an obvious choice. If you only work on location the field camera with good movements pulls ahead. My Chamonix 045N will do everything you mentioned.


Kent in SD

[jeroldharter]

Most any 4x5 will work. However, generally speaking the longer the bellows the more they will be compressed with the 90. If the bellows are compressed, movements are very stiff and it can be harder to lock the camera down without any slippage. I used a Toyo AX and it worked but it was tight. My Arca Swis F-Line Metric was better and it took a bag bellows. I think interchangeable bellows with a bag bellows option would be ideal, especially if you require lots of movements.

[Bernice Loui]

Skip ALL those field foldable cameras as they are not an ideal fit for home interior images. Using 4x5 sheet film format:

~90mm focal length is often too long. Do not be surprised to discover needing lens focal length down to 47mm, then pressing the lens & camera for all minuscule amounts of camera/lens movement this combo is capable of.

~often used focal length for interiors would be 75mm with a 65mm often. Again once adding camera movements and all, these field folders are not going to allow ease of image making at all.

~Bag bellows is mandatory, non-option. Another requirement that does not fit well on the majority of field folders.

~Full camera movements Front and Rear. Majority of field folders easily meet the front camera movement requirement, few if any can duplicate ALL the identical camera movements at the rear.. which is a time saver and frustration reducer for interior images. A ground glass with accurate grid is mandatory.

Been and done the Horseman L monorail, GOOD camera, they are on the heavy_ish side. They were at one point in view camera time the absolute bargain monorail view camera. Keep in mind the Horseman L monorail was designed and intended to be used as a in-studio camera which was THE majority view camera market back when these were new. It was feature on the cover of time magazine with AA (ponder why no light weight field folder in AA's later years).
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IMO, your ideal camera would be a Sinar Norma in GOOD condition (cleaned, lubed, and properly adjusted) with a bag bellows or Sinar F/F2. Sinar allows little if any camera limitations, meets each and every need in a very nice way and expandable beyond most any possible view camera image making needs.

The question of weight and portability comes up often, Sinar Norma is 7.5 pounds, lightweight field folder about 3.5 pounds. Fact is 3 pounds is not that significant for those not backpacking or hiking mile after mile with their view camera outfit.

Set up is typically easier and faster with a Sinar monorail as the camera can be stored compete with lens in it's case. Set up means taking the entire camera with lens out of it's case then putting it on the Sinar tripod rail clamp. Takes seconds, no unfolding, fiddling with centering the standards, racking this or that our or... Example of what is not so easy if at all possible on a field folder.
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ALL cameras are a mandatory compromise, they are specific tools designed and intended to do what they have been specifically designed and intended to do.
Making demands or expectations above and beyond what they were designed and intended to do often does not work out so good at all.


Bernice





I'm planning to use it for images of interiors and houses. I really want those parallel lines:) But I would also like to be able to shot portraits (ofc with a different lens). I'm not big on long lenses if that matters.
Horseman L45 although monorail entered my mind. Still not sure what to think of it, mainly due to how time-consuming it seems to assemble and disassemble it and ofc its weight.
Choosing LF camera seems like a mandatory compromise

:)

[Corran]

Just get a used Chamonix if the new price is too high. Any model is good. "Universal" bellows will be best for large movements. A monorail is a cheap alternative with a large weight penalty.

As others have said in the past, just get anything and learn what works for you. No LF camera can do-it-all; there's always a compromise. Even a cheap Crown Graphic can use a 90mm and do movements fairly well.

IMO it's better to have a lighter and more portable camera that you'll actually get out and use than an anchor you never take out.

[Peter De Smidt]

Bryan gives good advice, and Bernice makes some good points. The best LF cameras for Architecture/Interiors are the high quality monorails, Sinar Norma, F2, Arca Swiss F, all with bag bellows. They aren't that big or heavy. But, they aren't that much fun to hike with, although it can of course be done.

The Chamonix isn't as precise, but it's significantly lighter and more compact.

My Toyo AX has less movements, but it's more rugged. If I could only have one 4x5, I'd keep the Toyo and sell my Sinars, but I'd miss them for architectural work.

Here's another option: https://www.walkercameras.com/XL_4x5.html

A Toyo VX would also be a good choice.

[John Power]

I chime in here knowing that the previous posters all have soooo much more experience than I. Take all of this with a novice-sized grain of salt. I've read it, now that I've written it, and it sounds like a sales pitch, but I swear I have no affiliation with Kenko!

Here are my thoughts after a month with my Horseman L45.
Hiking with it is totally fine. If this is what stopping you, dont hesitate to pull the trigger! I've hiked and biked hours and hours at a time with mine on my back, often off track, up and down gullies here and gorges and "mountains", looking for cascades. My camera folds FLAT, maybe 35-40mm thick at its thickest, and sits inside a carry-on sized backpack perfectly with a whole heap of room for everything else. I understand that as people get older, or if they have injuries, they need lighter stuff, but for most of us 8kg (total, with all other gear included) on your back isnt a deal breaker, or wont be with a bit of practice.

In terms of set up, again, I'm a newcomer but its about 90 seconds from zipping open my bag to having the camera ready to go. That includes aligning/zeroing standards, installing belows, installing lens and levelling the whole thing with a spirit block. And crucially, this also means the camera is balanced fore/aft on top of the tripod head. The weight of any sized lens can be counterbalanced by the back standard using the geared knob that moves the whole rail along the mounting plate. This gear also heaps massively when doing macro stuff on my kitchen table... focusing by moving the whole camera, rather than a standard, is really helpful

The movements are awesome, the image circle of the lens, it seems, will usually be limiting factor in movements. Having geared, smooth rise and fall and side to side movements is nice. I focus 90% of the time with the back standard. The front and rear standards and mounts are identical and can be interchanged (with riser blocks) for 5x7 and 8x10 units at rear. Changing from landscape to portrait mode is a 5 second job. It can (apparently) accept down to 65mm lenses without the need for a recessed lens board.

Other things in the WIN column are that it was super cheap, its solid as heck, and Ansel Adams used and loved one too.

What don't I like about it?
The grease in mine (and almost all of them I suppose) is old and the tilts and swings are a bit tight in cold weather (which is now in Australia). I work them for 10 seconds, back and forth and theyre then fine. They are pretty easy to service, though, and to adjust that friction plate. I'll do that sometime soon.

What else don't I like? It doesn't have a classic look like wooden folder, and with the bag bellows, ballooning out when focused at infinity with my 125mm lens, i might even call it a bit ugly. But its a beast and there hasn't been a moment that I've regretted getting it. I was looking at a Wista SP before I saw Ansel's discussion of the Horseman, then I saw Giulio Speranza (http://www.giuliosperanza.com/) taking his on MASSIVE epics into the Italian mountains and I realised that it was all going to be fine, and I'd have a tool that was as useful for still life, architecture and portraits as it is for landscapes.

[Bernice Loui]

IMO, Horseman L series monorails were THE best used monorail value camera on the market. That was a time when less than $200 would result in an excellent Horseman L series with extras like bag bellows, lens boards and more. Not so much any more as the market has figure out how good these Horseman L series monorails are. Far better camera at the used price point than the Sinar F or F2, heavier, far less plastic bits than the Sinar F series. Better of all, most of the Sinar bits work on the Horseman L from Lens boards to Sinar shutter and etc.. This was the last Horseman L series camera (LM) before it found another home.
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They remain an excellent value at their current market $ of about $400 with extras. Like this one complete with bag bellows which is a requirement for what your image goals are:
https://www.natcam.com/products/4x5-horseman-l45-w-bag-bellows/

IMO, don't spend too much on the camera which is not a lot more than a light tight box that is flexi in the center. Be far more generous with lenses and those other image creation bits, that is often far more significant than the camera. What a camera like the Horseman L, Sinar, Toyo or similar monorail camera can do is make life and creation of the image easier. Stuff like a camera movements with easy to apply front and back movements, center detents and all often makes the difference between simplicity of applying camera movements with accuracy and precision and knowing the camera will stay put once set or struggle with centering the standards, excessive or unwanted camera movements as they are adjusted.

Two sample house room pictures made using a 5x7 Sinar Norma, guess the lens focal length used and what camera movements were applied:
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If you're driving to a house to make interior pictures, ponder how and why a few extra pounds (about 3lb or so) in the camera impact the ability to transport the camera and ALL related to image making of rooms inside a house (hint, it is NOT important at all in many ways) ?


Bernice