How is Large Digital C-prints made?

[norly]

Hi.
Just out of curiosity. How do you make a large Digital C-print.

I would guess you need a rail mounted enlarger that can project digitally (perhaps laser or Leds) to a wall mounted paper. Then in to a classic automatic paper developer machine or?

If so, can anyone point me towards any names or models thats being used? I know about the auto labs like Polielettronica LaserLab and Durst Lambda and so on. Also the DE VERE 504DS Digital Enlarger is a interesting concept, but it can only do table top sizes.


C-print Definition: C-print is a photo lab print produced on light-sensitive color paper then processed in wet chemistry. Digital C-print is the same but with a paper projection using a digital original.

thanks

[ic-racer]

These are, I believe, outdated now. Though, I think Bob Carine has one: Durst Lambda printer....a pretty amazing device, having its own 'darkroom' enclosure.
216846

[bob carnie]

I still use this machine for silver prints and negs.... Cprints are slowly moving out out of the mainstream, I doubt any commercial labs are using enlargers other than home hobbyists.. The Chromira is one device, The Lambda is another that can produce Cprints .

[pdmoylan]

Dodge Chrome in DC/Silver Spring and Taylor Photo in NJ both produce C Prints using Chromira machines (last that I looked). They may have changed during pandemic.

Durst Lambda prints were for me the best output from high res scans of 4x5 chromes. I used both of the above companies for Chromira prints and found I liked them less than Durst, but more than inkjet/pigment prints. Having said that, there is purportedly more detail/color differentiations with the newest inkjet technology, or at least that is the hype. For color I’m not sure how one confirms that but LF stalwarts such as Charles Cramer and Joseph Holmes are inkjet converts, at least from what I’ve read.

[norly]

Well inkjet is of course much easier, but not relevant to the question.

I had the impression that you could use the same paper developer machine as in analog, and only find a special type of enlarger, or similar. like the DE VERE 504DS Digital Enlarger, but more powerful.

So normally the labs has a machine that does both the exposure and printing/devolping of the paper?

[koraks]

Labs use something like the devices mentioned, so chromira, lambda or Oce LightJet or any other rgb laser scanning unit. No enlargers. Processing is likely only inline/integrated with the exposure unit in pro labs.
The paper used can also be used in the home darkroom with a normal color enlarger, nothing "digital" is needed. I use "digital" paper all the time.

[Drew Wiley]

There are several brands of large laser printing devices in use. They have to be fully integrated with drum scanners, big automated roll paper cutters, and equally size RA4 processors and dryers, of course. An expensive investment, and fussy to maintain an keep consistent on a day-to-day basis, but otherwise realistic for high-production environments. But for the rest of us, enlargers with a colorhead work just as fine, probably even better once one gets truly skilled at it. Handling big rolls of RA4 paper in the dark by hand is one of trickier parts.

"C-print" is just old terminology for a chromogenic RC paper color print in distinction from direct-positive dye-destruction chromolytic Cibachrome prints of the era, or the much more complicated dye printing process certain big labs still offered. Now it's easier to just call them RA4 prints, since that is the chemical process almost universally involved, and since these themselves are offered not only in RC paper version, but also in transparency and high-gloss polyester base as well.

[agregov]

You certainly don't need a lightjet to make mural c-priints. Any standard 4x5 to 8x10 enlarger with a color head should be able to make murals. You just need a drop table and focusing extension. That said, exposing c-paper in a darkroom is not easy. Without things like a vacuum easel and/or a space where you don't have to get on your knees to layout roll paper in the dark, making making exhibition quality analog c-prints can be tough. It's just too easy to ding the paper at some point between exposure and feeding into a processor. I've done C murals myself and it was a painful process.

Contact LA has a rental darkroom where you can make mural c-prints using their 8x10 enlargers. You expose the paper in a dedicated darkroom, rollup the paper to put it into a transport box and feed it into the same processor they use for making digital c-prints for clients. I know David Benjamin Sherry makes 40x50 enlarger made C-print murals there. For myself, I do enlarger based c-printing in my home darkroom with Saudners 4x5/color head using either a Fujimoto tabletop processor (up to 11x14) or Jobo CPP3 for up to 20x24. My enlarger is mounted to the wall with a drop table and could in theory print 30x40. So, a wall projection style enlarger or digital setup is not a requirement. To Bob's point, I know of no serious photographers (who still shoot color films) in my hometown that can print c-prints locally. I stumbled into a solution for myself but I believe it's rare to see most anyone printing color work in an analog darkroom these days. For the most part, one must head off to a few labs that still offer a digital c service. A friend just completed a 30x40 digital c-print with the help of Laumont in NYC and her results were stunning. Side note of interest for color printers here, the Laumont printer mentioned that he thought the highest quality c-paper today is a new paper from Fuji - Maxima. Good sign if manufacturers are still coming out with new c-paper. While inkjet prints can certainly be great today, I still prefer a well made c-print any day.

[Drew Wiley]

Most C paper today tends to lie very flat on its own. It's not like hydroscopic fiber-based paper. I'm equipped to efficiently make up to 30X40 inch prints on both my 8x10 vertical color enlargers. I dismantled my horizontal one long ago because it took up too much floor space; and I have high ceilings appropriate for relatively big vertical enlargements instead. It isn't difficult, and just takes some experience to learn how to evaluate and adjust results. A precisely made master negative taken of a MacBeth Color Checker Chart with the light or camera filter precisely matched to 5500K really helps. You work with that for any specific batch of paper until you arrive at the best possible CC balance in the print itself replicating the original chart, especially with respect to a truly neutral gray scale. Getting on first base like that takes a hour or two, but saves time and fuss overall.

[norly]

You certainly don't need a lightjet to make mural c-priints. Any standard 4x5 to 8x10 enlarger with a color head should be able to make murals. You just need a drop table and focusing extension. That said, exposing c-paper in a darkroom is not easy. Without things like a vacuum easel and/or a space where you don't have to get on your knees to layout roll paper in the dark, making making exhibition quality analog c-prints can be tough. It's just too easy to ding the paper at some point between exposure and feeding into a processor. I've done C murals myself and it was a painful process.

I remembered the lab I had at school. We had a rail mounted enlarger and a roll-paper cutting machine. Worked fine with a metal wall and strong magnets. I also had the opportunity to work with a studio that had (according to themselves) the largest vacuum wall in Europe. That was quite cool.

Anyway, the question is how to get a digital fil projected on the paper and still getting a good result. That is to me the tricky bit.

Naturally a full automated all inclusive Prolab machine would work. I just figure, that when for example they do prints for museums and archives it would more of a manual process. Imitating the classical darkroom.

Sidenote: Ive got a tabletop ra-4 developer in the attic. But it limited to sheet and ≈15" (If I remember correctly). Se image below. Quite nice little machine anyway :)

216899

[BKP]

Large C prints or Mural Prints were limited by the throat of the processor. 50 inch was the accepted largest size because the racks that transported the paper were supported on the two ends and would sag towards the center giving all sorts of problems.
As brought up earlier, the paper is in rolls, which hopefully is Roll Paper Dispenser, It is in a different room than the mural enlarger. At the last lab that I worked at in NYC, our enlarger was a 10x10 Fotar on tracks bolted into the floor. One would roll out a lot of paper, re roll it, put in a bag then a box many times, focus sheet, then a few test prints (strips) then the real sheet, loaded carefully into the processor. (thinking about it is going to give me nightmares tonight)
The digital prints are not projected as in the past. The technology has evolved many times. I had the service manual for a writer for a while. They have film writers and paper writers. As the drum spins a light pen almost touches and based on what color is to appear a combination of chemical compounds and varying current emit the wavelength desired. This happens many times until it is processed. That was early nineties. (I like the old days)
I had a twenty inch Colenta EP-2 processor( 12 min.) When RA-4 came out it was converted (4 min) RA Rapid Access.
My Ilford Cap 40s which was made for Cibachrome and processed many has been processing RA-4 (the 2 min per bath not a concern if the temperature is adjustable)

[Mick Fagan]

Large C prints or Mural Prints were limited by the throat of the processor. 50 inch was the accepted largest size because the racks that transported the paper were supported on the two ends and would sag towards the center giving all sorts of problems.
As brought up earlier, the paper is in rolls, which hopefully is Roll Paper Dispenser, It is in a different room than the mural enlarger. At the last lab that I worked at in NYC, our enlarger was a 10x10 Fotar on tracks bolted into the floor. One would roll out a lot of paper, re roll it, put in a bag then a box many times, focus sheet, then a few test prints (strips) then the real sheet, loaded carefully into the processor. (thinking about it is going to give me nightmares tonight)
The digital prints are not projected as in the past. The technology has evolved many times. I had the service manual for a writer for a while. They have film writers and paper writers. As the drum spins a light pen almost touches and based on what color is to appear a combination of chemical compounds and varying current emit the wavelength desired. This happens many times until it is processed. That was early nineties. (I like the old days)
I had a twenty inch Colenta EP-2 processor( 12 min.) When RA-4 came out it was converted (4 min) RA Rapid Access.
My Ilford Cap 40s which was made for Cibachrome and processed many has been processing RA-4 (the 2 min per bath not a concern if the temperature is adjustable)

We had 72" wide paper that we processed through (I think) 76" wide rollers. Our largest single prints were 1.8m x 6m and you really needed to get the paper going into the processor dead straight, otherwise............................

Mick.

[norly]

Went to a pro lab today, and they get me a long tour of the Durst Lambda laser they are using. He explained about a lot of other things, like the lack of papers, the slow delivery times of Kodak and some new super fantastic printing machine from switzerland thats to expensive for anyone to buy... but he still preferred the full analog way :)

thank you all for all the great responsen. I feel Ive got a better concept of the printing process now. Thanks!

[koraks]

the slow delivery times of Kodak
They shouldn't be complaining about this; here in Europe it seems like Kodak Endura papers have become unobtainium.

[norly]

Well, Kodak papers and chemicals are partly owned by a British kemi company now. So I guess the whole Brexit mess probably won't help the EU...

[koraks]

Yeah, maybe that's it. Although agphotographic still mention on their website that all Kodak paper is manufactured in the US and they import it to Europe (from where they now would need to import it to the UK in turn since Brexit...) But maybe their website is outdated. Tetenal in the UK seems to have none in stock (or only a couple of finishes/sizes), which as been like this for well over a year now.

[norly]

I dont know... Was just told that parts of the paper business is now in British hands. But I'm sure other people here knows a lot more about this then me.


all Kodak paper is manufactured in the US and they import it to Europe According to this article, they also produce in China.

https://petapixel.com/2020/07/13/kodak-paper-and-chemistry-business-sold-to-chinese-company-report/

[koraks]

Yeah, conflicting and unclear information all over the place. Frankly, I can't make any sense of it anymore. All I see is that Endura paper supply was interrupted somewhere around the start of the Covid crisis and that apparently in Europe it still hasn't recovered.

[profvandegraf]

Chromira Machine is long gone at Dodge-Chrome, unfortunately. Still do dip and dunk E6, C-41 and Black and white film processing though.


Dodge Chrome in DC/Silver Spring and Taylor Photo in NJ both produce C Prints using Chromira machines (last that I looked). They may have changed during pandemic.

Durst Lambda prints were for me the best output from high res scans of 4x5 chromes. I used both of the above companies for Chromira prints and found I liked them less than Durst, but more than inkjet/pigment prints. Having said that, there is purportedly more detail/color differentiations with the newest inkjet technology, or at least that is the hype. For color I’m not sure how one confirms that but LF stalwarts such as Charles Cramer and Joseph Holmes are inkjet converts, at least from what I’ve read.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm having a hard time finding a preferred Fuji wide roll paper. Also apparently a pandemic issue.

[jdk]

You certainly don't need a lightjet to make mural c-priints. Any standard 4x5 to 8x10 enlarger with a color head should be able to make murals. You just need a drop table and focusing extension. That said, exposing c-paper in a darkroom is not easy. Without things like a vacuum easel and/or a space where you don't have to get on your knees to layout roll paper in the dark, making making exhibition quality analog c-prints can be tough. It's just too easy to ding the paper at some point between exposure and feeding into a processor. I've done C murals myself and it was a painful process.

Is that what is demonstrated in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-3IBi5tC08

[LabRat]

To avoid creasing in the handling stage, a good practice to leave on the roll, secure edge, and carefully roll out material on flat easel, then cut while still flat (one at a time)...

Always allow material to nicely roll up and follow it's natural curve, or those clamshell marks will appear somewhere on print... (This includes RC/fiber/ink jet paper...) Like unrolling a big old map...

Go with the flow...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Fujifilm suffered a ransomeware attack. Fujifilm did not pay the ransom demand. They shut it down, then re-loaded from back up.. done.
https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/fujifilm-resumes-normal-operations-after-ransomware-attack/

Properly run large organization that understands operations, logistics, value of technology and the folks who work there.

Bernice



I'm having a hard time finding a preferred Fuji wide roll paper. Also apparently a pandemic issue.

[Drew Wiley]

Bernice - that's not why I having trouble with Fuji paper. It is manufactured in large quantities. But distribution itself is not even for one thing, and any kind of shipping and warehousing is dramatically influenced by pandemic issues at this time. One of their important manufacturing sites is in the Netherlands, which has been hit particularly hard. What that recent ransom ware event did is de facto increase their overhead for awhile. Their backup files were not of the nature that could be instantly re-loaded, but took a lot of effort and involved understaffing. So that will affect wholesale pricing, just as they formally announced.

My personal issue is all the hoops I have to jump through to get certain roll products because they are trying to protect specific lab niches. That is common practice in numerous industries, and deliberately tries to weed out the little nuisance guy. I've been on both sides of that tug-of-war one time or another, so understand. But I'm hardly competition in any volume sense. I'm merely after top quality paper which they restrict. They have distribution policies in position favoring large volume roll paper users who not only preferably use their own big laser printing devices with integral service contracts, but only their own proprietary tweaks of chemistry. Closed-loop markets. But technically, whatever they claim is required in terms of proprietary chemicals or special software can easily by mimicked or even improved via optical enlargement and small-volume process timing, especially by someone as well equipped as me.

Their latest flagship product is basically a clone of their superb Fujiflex emulsion onto more affordable and not quite as shiny RC paper base. But I'll probably just forget the whole issue and go back to Fujiflex per se. It's just harder to display well in really large prints due to its very high gloss. I do know how to handle secondary reflections, but it involves very expensive framing glazing. Some images look wonderful in that super-glossy "Ciba" kind of look, some don't. But I can always revert to Super-C for the latter. And when I get a chance, I'll follow up on Greg's posted lead.

[koraks]

One of their important manufacturing sites is in the Netherlands, which has been hit particularly hard.
Hit hard - how, with what? I have no signs whatsoever that they were hit harder than the convenience store at the corner. Probably less hard, in fact.
Furthermore, while supply of Kodak color papers here in Europe has been non-existent for at least 18 months now, there are no signs of anything comparably bad with Fuji. If you have any issues with supply of Fuji materials in the US, it's likely to be a pure logistics problem and not related directly to the Dutch manufacturing plant - which, as far as I can tell, is running normally. Albeit of course with color paper and flexo plates being under market pressure anyway, with focus of this plant shifting towards medical membranes etc.

[Drew Wiley]

koraks. I used to specialize in distributing product lines from the EU, especially Germany. It is a radically different ballgame at the moment, and this is unquestionably due to pandemic issues. Orders are now running at least six months behind. A marketing entity is only as good as its weakest link. It doesn't matter if the breakdown occurs at the supply end, as a labor shortage, within manufacturing itself, or in the phase of shipping and warehousing elsewhere. For example, here in the US, even though there's a significant backlog demand for new cars and trucks, everything is on hold at a number of plants simply because they can't get the electronics chips they need in time. That's all it takes. One literally little thing missing. I have a Dutch family member with dual citizenship, and even he couldn't get into the Netherlands for months as his brother was dying. Didn't even make it in time for the funeral. Everything was on lockdown.

[koraks]

Drew, with all due respect, I'm Dutch, I live in The Netherlands, my professional career + PhD research have all been about high-tech supply chains & buyer-suppleir collaborations, the FujiFilm plant you talk about is about 1 mile from my home...and the situation here wasn't different from anywhere else in the EU. My question was about how the Fuji plant was hit 'particularly hard' as you put it. It wasn't hit any harder than anything else over the past 18 months.

[Drew Wiley]

Hit no harder than"Anything else" includes just about everything from the EU. I wasn't singling out the Fuji plant per se, if that is what you thought I meant. Just re-read what I previously posted. If things can't even get out of port on a timely basis, and onto trucks, it makes no difference if the plant itself is operating normally or not. Most plants aren't anywhere near normal. Nothing of this nature can affordably be sent in volume to distribution warehouses inter-continental by mere air parcel shipment. Truckers are stretched very thin regardless. Just getting a reply to a phone inquiry concerning availability has taken months more than usual here. That's not normal, though things are slowly improving. And I can't believe things are less a mess there. The supply chain is crippled at the moment. Everyone knows that, and that's all I was referring to. All kinds of things are hard or impossible to get at the moment. A phD thesis can't change that fact.

[Jim Michael]

My wife still prints with a Lambda for the few artist clients still getting C prints. She said they haven’t experienced supply issues yet, but I imagine they stock a lot of the same emulsion.

[Drew Wiley]

It gets complicated because certain products might have in fact been available in warehouse in significant volumes all along. But at lesser turnover rates under present conditions, the inventory might not be as fresh. It takes me quite awhile to use up a big roll, so I want to start out with as fresh a batch as possible. But like I already hinted, just getting straight answers has been a headache. And I don't want just any product. I'll probably have to segregate the negatives I want to turn into full gloss Fujiflex prints from the ones better suited to softer RC presentation, and just print one category at a time.