Strange black blur spots on 4x5 320 Trix

[gerardboyer]

Hi everyone,
it's my first time I write here askinf for help.
I spoke with colleagues, people that are LF professional for years, and nobody saw this. I'll attach an image.
Triying to resume dev process.
1. using distilled water all the time at 20 Celsius degrees.
2. prewash, develop, etc as Ilford or Kodak standard process.

I have a doubt, could be this black spots about distilled water, or something occur when insert or extract sheet film from holders ¿?

Every answer for me is good to know.
Thanks!!!

Gerard

216812
216813

[Chuck Pere]

Always a good idea to first look at a sheet of film straight out of the box and see if it shows any problems. If it's clean you can move on to looking at processing problems.

[paulbarden]

What film did you use, and is it within its freshness date?

[Bruce Watson]

Hi everyone,
it's my first time I write here askinf for help.
I spoke with colleagues, people that are LF professional for years, and nobody saw this. I'll attach an image.

I have a doubt, could be this black spots about distilled water, or something occur when insert or extract sheet film from holders ¿?

Dark spots on a positive (print) are caused by light spots on the negative. This usually indicates a lack of exposure. And this usually indicates dust blocking the light from the lens. If the spots are sharp and well defined, the dust is on the film at exposure time. If the spots are fuzzy and poorly defined, they are floating between the lens and the film (they are out of focus). People often forget to clean the inside of the bellows. Just sayin'.

So, first thing I would do is put that film on a light table and look at the spots with a loupe. What do you see?

[Alan Klein]

As an aside, I'm new to 4x5 and have trouble getting my fingers all over the film when I insert it into the holder and remove it. Gloves don't work for me. I do wash my hands very clean before doing this and dry them well to eliminate skin oils and sweat. Will inadvertently touching the film cause any issues?

[Bill Poole]

Using a filter? I have seen similar with dust on filter and small aperture.

[lab black]

If you are using a developer that you have mixed from powder, consider filtering the developer before use. A funnel and a coffee filter can be used.

[gerardboyer]

Always a good idea to first look at a sheet of film straight out of the box and see if it shows any problems. If it's clean you can move on to looking at processing problems.

Thanks, I inspect it and was clean.


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[gerardboyer]

Dark spots on a positive (print) are caused by light spots on the negative. This usually indicates a lack of exposure. And this usually indicates dust blocking the light from the lens. If the spots are sharp and well defined, the dust is on the film at exposure time. If the spots are fuzzy and poorly defined, they are floating between the lens and the film (they are out of focus). People often forget to clean the inside of the bellows. Just sayin'.

So, first thing I would do is put that film on a light table and look at the spots with a loupe. What do you see?

Hi Bruce, it’s a possibility to have dust on film, on Monday I attach a detail scan of this marks. This spots are well defines on the scans, but always different. This two pictures, are from two sheets of six batch in a jobo 2500, developed in a cpe2 plus as always. Thx!

[gerardboyer]

As an aside, I'm new to 4x5 and have trouble getting my fingers all over the film when I insert it into the holder and remove it. Gloves don't work for me. I do wash my hands very clean before doing this and dry them well to eliminate skin oils and sweat. Will inadvertently touching the film cause any issues?

Probably Alan, but I take care of it, the marks are different
Thx

[gerardboyer]

If you are using a developer that you have mixed from powder, consider filtering the developer before use. A funnel and a coffee filter can be used.

I will do it with xtol lab black, thx

[gerardboyer]

Using a filter? I have seen similar with dust on filter and small aperture.

No, i’m not using a filter, and from 6 sheets developed at same time, its irregular on every sheet
Thx


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[jp]

I would guess dust on the film before exposure. Clean in side the camera, film holders, keep film holders in antistatic bags or atleast ziplock bags.

[gerardboyer]

Thanks! I'll do it next time.
I attach another picture with more detail.
:-)

216844


I would guess dust on the film before exposure. Clean in side the camera, film holders, keep film holders in antistatic bags or atleast ziplock bags.

[citychicago]

I am also having problems with Tri-X 320, but on 5x7. I recognize the vignetting and the bellows light leak here...

But there are these small black spots all over. I can't figure out what is causing this.
I clean my holders thoroughly every time I load film. I'm using a clean camera and modern glass. This was processed in D-76 1:1 in a Patterson Tank on 20th Century Camera reel.

Any suggestions for what is going on here? Thank you community!

219233219234

[Joe O'Hara]

FWIW, even with blowing out the film holders before loading, I was still troubled by this problem occasionally until I started to blow off the film after it was slipped into the holder and just before I closed the dark slide. How the dust got on the film I don't know, but I haven't had a black spot on a print since I began doing that.

BTW do you load film in a darkroom, or in a loading tent (or bag)? I've used a loading tent and usually gotten away with it, but I can't imagine how you can really ensure there is no dust in them when you're working.

[Joe O'Hara]

As an aside, I'm new to 4x5 and have trouble getting my fingers all over the film when I insert it into the holder and remove it. Gloves don't work for me. I do wash my hands very clean before doing this and dry them well to eliminate skin oils and sweat. Will inadvertently touching the film cause any issues?

I've never seen any issues from it. Film doesn't have to be sterile or semiconductor fab clean, or we'd all be in a lot of trouble. Developers are usually so alkaline that any oily stuff on the film is going to be happy to float off and get suspended as soon as it gets wet.

[LabRat]

FWIW, even with blowing out the film holders before loading, I was still troubled by this problem occasionally until I started to blow off the film after it was slipped into the holder and just before I closed the dark slide. How the dust got on the film I don't know, but I haven't had a black spot on a print since I began doing that.

BTW do you load film in a darkroom, or in a loading tent (or bag)? I've used a loading tent and usually gotten away with it, but I can't imagine how you can really ensure there is no dust in them when you're working.

I was shooting with another pro outdoors and noticed him blowing off the outer slide with one of those rubber air blowers while holder was inverted so new dust could be dislodged and fall off before shot... I started doing this, and it helped... The crud does not spin in the air when slide is pulled and land on film while in camera...

Some cameras get filthy with dust inside, so occasional vacuuming with a shop vac (with a dry wall dust filter bag) cleans camera, holders, cases etc well..


Treating slides with anti-static spray does not attract and hold dust on outside slide... And those anti-static bags for holders also help...

Steve K

[citychicago]

This info is worth a lot to me, thanks! I usually load in a changing bag, so I have no good way to blow air after the holder is loaded with film. I will try loading a holder in the community darkroom (not in a bag), blow it after it’s loaded, and try again. Thanks for the tip!

[citychicago]

I was shooting with another pro outdoors and noticed him blowing off the outer slide with one of those rubber air blowers while holder was inverted so new dust could be dislodged and fall off before shot... I started doing this, and it helped... The crud does not spin in the air when slide is pulled and land on film while in camera...

Some cameras get filthy with dust inside, so occasional vacuuming with a shop vac (with a dry wall dust filter bag) cleans camera, holders, cases etc well..


Treating slides with anti-static spray does not attract and hold dust on outside slide... And those anti-static bags for holders also help...

Steve K

More good advice, thank you!

[Pat Kearns]

[QUOTE=citychicago;1612865]I am also having problems with Tri-X 320, but on 5x7. I recognize the vignetting and the bellows light leak here...

But there are these small black spots all over. I can't figure out what is causing this.
I clean my holders thoroughly every time I load film. I'm using a clean camera and modern glass. This was processed in D-76 1:1 in a Patterson Tank on 20th Century Camera reel.

Any suggestions for what is going on here? Thank you community!

CityChicago,
Your small black spots are air bells on the film when the developer is poured in. Air bubbles form on the film surface leaving slightly under development where the bubbles form and many times have halos around them. The spots on the street surface have halos all around them. That's a dead give away.

There are two ways to eliminate them. First, you can do a presoak of the film for about 3 minutes before pouring in the developer. Second, if you don't want to do a presoak, immediately after pouring the developer into your tank you need to bang the tank on the counter about for about 5 seconds. This will dislodge the air bubbles from the surface of the film. Your Patterson tank is made of plastic so rapping the tank on a hard counter will crack your tank. To keep from cracking your tank take a bar towel and fold it several times making a cushion to absorb the force of banging of the tank.

[citychicago]

Pat Kearns,

Thank you so much for this info and tips. I typically tray process my sheet film, so this is all new to me. When processing my roll film I always pre-soak; not sure why I didn't do it with this new 20th Century Camera reel... maybe just excited to see what I would get with it. I sincerely appreciate the tips and will report back with examples based on your suggestions.

[ericantonio]

I'm with PatKearns on this one. I haven't used distilled water since the 80's for film. I use plain h2o for stop and prewash. In trays, I use the same prewash as my stop. Whatever is on the negative IS ON THE NEGATIVE regardless on how you agitate, bounce, voodoo magic, sloshing around in the fixer. The fixer "fixes permanent on film whatever is on there". You can't re-bake a cake, it's done as soon as it is in the fixer. You can even turn the light on about 5 seconds after you put it in fix, and agitate it around and you'll see it clearing. There is no longer any silver to be processed once it is in there. I pretty much process film like John Malcovich in a bathroom in Cambodia. Whatever works...

I don't see a post on what instrument you are using to process the film. Some sort of tank? Trays? If a tank, make sure you give it a WHACK at the start like what Pat said. The samples I'm seeing does look suspicious like air bubbles. My next guess is that the tank is not fully dry, maybe there was some spots of water in there? If it is a tray, maybe sure there is nothing in there. LIke pieces of PB&J crumbs from lunch.

For loading film, make sure you have a consistent method. The notches are on the top right always. If you are right handed, your entire process should have the notches on the top right, from loading the film, to processing the film, to hanging the film. That way your fingers only touch the corner of that film, and you know, it's just the corner where the notch is.

I've loaded hundreds of sheets a day back when I worked in studios in Mahanttan, I rarely "blew" dust off the holders since we used them constantly. Besides, the dust is on the acetate side, not on the emulsion side of things. If anything, I wipe the holder a little bit each time I remove it but usually the felt on the holder takes care of it. Also, in the upright coffins I used to load film in, it would get really hot and humid in them. I've never had a problem with my fingerprints on the film. You really need to press it right in the middle to get a good imprint of your fingerprint on the emulsion. You can get away with it on the back side, but just take care not to touch the business end of the film.

[Alan Klein]

I'm with PatKearns on this one. I haven't used distilled water since the 80's for film. I use plain h2o for stop and prewash. In trays, I use the same prewash as my stop. Whatever is on the negative IS ON THE NEGATIVE regardless on how you agitate, bounce, voodoo magic, sloshing around in the fixer. The fixer "fixes permanent on film whatever is on there". You can't re-bake a cake, it's done as soon as it is in the fixer. You can even turn the light on about 5 seconds after you put it in fix, and agitate it around and you'll see it clearing. There is no longer any silver to be processed once it is in there. I pretty much process film like John Malcovich in a bathroom in Cambodia. Whatever works...

I don't see a post on what instrument you are using to process the film. Some sort of tank? Trays? If a tank, make sure you give it a WHACK at the start like what Pat said. The samples I'm seeing does look suspicious like air bubbles. My next guess is that the tank is not fully dry, maybe there was some spots of water in there? If it is a tray, maybe sure there is nothing in there. LIke pieces of PB&J crumbs from lunch.

For loading film, make sure you have a consistent method. The notches are on the top right always. If you are right handed, your entire process should have the notches on the top right, from loading the film, to processing the film, to hanging the film. That way your fingers only touch the corner of that film, and you know, it's just the corner where the notch is.

I've loaded hundreds of sheets a day back when I worked in studios in Mahanttan, I rarely "blew" dust off the holders since we used them constantly. Besides, the dust is on the acetate side, not on the emulsion side of things. If anything, I wipe the holder a little bit each time I remove it but usually the felt on the holder takes care of it. Also, in the upright coffins I used to load film in, it would get really hot and humid in them. I've never had a problem with my fingerprints on the film. You really need to press it right in the middle to get a good imprint of your fingerprint on the emulsion. You can get away with it on the back side, but just take care not to touch the business end of the film.

Wearing rubber gloves just doesn't work for me. So, when I load or remove 4x5 film in the holder, I wash my hands first to get all the oils off. Does that help?

[ericantonio]

Wearing rubber gloves just doesn't work for me. So, when I load or remove 4x5 film in the holder, I wash my hands first to get all the oils off. Does that help?

It'll help, anything helps. Especially with something large as 8x10. Can you try having a nail on a finger a little bit longer to pull the film from the back, and then pull up when unloading? Or a thin piece of cardboard like a screwdriver shape and stick i tin the back of the film. Film holders have a little semi-circle on top under the flap just for sticking a finger nail underneath.

But I can see and understand the gloves not working for you. Everyone is built different. Hmmm, what else can we brainstorm for you? I think collectively we can elimate a bunch of things so that you can have your own workflow that works for you.

[ggruber]

Hi everyone,
it's my first time I write here askinf for help.
I spoke with colleagues, people that are LF professional for years, and nobody saw this. I'll attach an image.
Triying to resume dev process.
1. using distilled water all the time at 20 Celsius degrees.
2. prewash, develop, etc as Ilford or Kodak standard process.

I have a doubt, could be this black spots about distilled water, or something occur when insert or extract sheet film from holders ¿?

Every answer for me is good to know.
Thanks!!!

Gerard

216812
216813

Those spots are not caused by dust anywhere. They are caused by the alkalinity of the water used to mix the developer. I fought them for at least a year when I moved to the the SOCAL desert until I realized the source of the problem.

[Greg]

Always a good idea to first look at a sheet of film straight out of the box and see if it shows any problems. If it's clean you can move on to looking at processing problems.

In the 1980s bought a 100 foot roll of 35mm film and bulk loaded several rolls. Shot, developed, and made proof prints. Everything looked OK, but when I went to enlarge the negatives, I discovered it was covered with random abrasion spots. Sent what was left of the 100 foot roll back to Ilford, and they sent me back a new roll with a letter of apology. Now shoot only 120, LF, and ULF film. When I open a box, I take one sheet out and expose half of it to around a ZONE V under my enlarger, process it, and then carefully inspect it. For expired film I carefully measure the base plus fog density. Last year I had to throw away a brick of very, very outdated 120 film, and glad that I caught it before shooting any of those rolls.

[ericantonio]

Those spots are not caused by dust anywhere. They are caused by the alkalinity of the water used to mix the developer. I fought them for at least a year when I moved to the the SOCAL desert until I realized the source of the problem.

I'm going to go with this theory, like 95% or more. I think also, it's somewhere in the developing liquid. Either there are bits and pieces of stuff in bottle, or water, or something. Nothing in the stop or fix will add stuff to a neg. Stop bath will just "stop" whatever is happening on the neg, good or bad. Fix will "permanent" fix whatever is on the neg good or bad.

The only other thing that can be added to a bad neg is bad flo at the end, or "drying marks". That's not a drying mark.

[LabRat]

The other possibility to add, is some films (like some Eastern Euro films) can react to too strong of a stop bath, where developer remains in emulsion generate gas bubbles in the presence of the stop, even tiny "explosions" making pinhead clear spots... You can look at the dry neg under high magnification to see if these spots have a jagged edge like a burst balloon...

For those "Euro" films, I found just using a plain water stop bath for a longer time (5 minutes) "stopped" the problem, and gained a benefit of slowly diluting remaining developer (in emulsion) slightly enhanced "edge" effects on image... Most noticeable on dry negs when bouncing light (on an angle) off of them, and surface appeared more "etched" with the image...

Steve K

[gerardboyer]

Those spots are not caused by dust anywhere. They are caused by the alkalinity of the water used to mix the developer. I fought them for at least a year when I moved to the the SOCAL desert until I realized the source of the problem.


Thanks everyone to contribute with your knowledge, and ggruber, could be this, as you said, at home we have so hard water, but I use distilled water for last 4 years now. Other ting I supect could be bad use of flo, but I think I solve it.
thanks a lot.
Gerard

[Keith F]

I was have the same problem with tri-x 320. I narrowed it down to more constant agitation, per kodak web site for this film, and changed dev from d76 to rodinal at 1:50. I had not experienced this with any other film I have shot recently (hp5, foma retropan 320, arista 400, tmax100). I have been tray processing only, and printing only, last shots with tri-x 320 in Rodinal 1:50 were free of these artifacts, although a little contrasty so I might need to exp with times/ agitation. I have been wanting to try Tri-x with Xtol dev and it is on the list.

This is my first post and I am thankful for all the wonderful information here. Thank you.
Keith