shutter choice for a newbie

[danielha]

Hello all,

Shutters are at least as deep a sea as lenses are. Basically we have Copal, Compur, Seiko and probably some few others I have not yet heard of. 99% are mecanical spring based. A few models are called electronic (Some Compurs for instance). So how to I find my way in this ?

Electronic shutters are a bad idea. Not that they are not working well but because there is not that much people who will know how to repair them. So when all goes wrong, there is not much to be done. That, I do understand.

I also understand that Copal models are appreciated. If I have the choice, newer model B Copal shutters (all black) is probably the best idea. What about model C (thick silver speed ring) or model S (thin silver speed ring) ? They are older (model C) or much older (model S), so obviously less reliable. So can I still rely on them or should I walk away from them !

Same question applies to Compur and Seiko shutters. I probably have not yet searched enough. But I don't have much information on them. So can I trust them or should I walk away from them ?

Obviously, I know we're talking about tiny mecanical objects that may be decades old. So there is no undisputable truth. I can end up with a bad Copal B shutter or find a nice seiko that will last years without any issue.

I could put this differently : I understand that younger / better looking shutters (& lenses) are probably a better idea. But this does have a cost. So how far, should I follow this rule ?

Daniel

[Ron (Netherlands)]

things to think about:
1. are you going (to learn) to service shutters yourself;
2. are you going to have them serviced by someone else;
3. are you not having them serviced but want out of the box as perfect as possible working shutters.

If it only comes down to costs, then all 3 options may seem different in that aspect, but no 1 although upfront may seem less costly, will take more of your costly time; as for the others, since nr. 3 are hard to find, nr. 2 seems what most people are after.

[Alan9940]

I own lenses with Copal, Seiko, and Ilex shutters. Most of the Copal shuttered lenses I've had for 40+ years and never had one serviced. The Ilex shutter is the only one I've ever had serviced and I did that only because the slower speeds were running too slow.

[Tin Can]

Buy Black

ULF usually needs Galli (https://www.google.com/search?q=galli+shutter&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS850US850&oq=galli+shutter&aqs=chrome..69i57.4919j0j15&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)or Packard



some use a hat

[danielha]

Hi Ron,

Many thanks for your answer !

Option 1 is probably not for me. But maybe I'll discover something about me that I don't know yet :-) So I will probably do as mot people do and have my shutter(s) serviced by skilled people when they need to.

However, my question is still valid. As a newbie, I want to avoid unnecessary risk. I'd say that I want to find a lens & shutter that work reasonably well on day 1. I understand that if a shutter works on day 1 it doesn't mean it will work on day 150 (and it will most probably need service before day 1200 !).

So if there is anything to avoid, any specific model less reliable than others... , I'd like to hear about it before buying the first bad lens & shutter available on the internet :-)

Obviously "Ask the seller" is the first good advise I can use.

Maybe a simple rule such as "If the shutter is not too old and very clean, use it until service is needed. If the shutter is old or not too clean, have it cleaned & lubricated before anything" is enough to stay away from trouble. However, it feels like there is more to it than that !

Daniel

Daniel

[BrianShaw]

“ Maybe a simple rule such as "If the shutter is not too old and very clean, use it until service is needed. If the shutter is old or not too clean, have it cleaned & lubricated before anything" is enough to stay away from trouble. However, it feels like there is more to it than that !”

It really is that simple for the most part. It depends on your goals. If you want to really minimize risk and maximize reliability an old shutter (and they are ALL old now) should get a professional overhaul. A bit more risk is to use until it shows signs of needing service, like slower speeds under-performing. I feel confident buying a shutter that the slower speeds are too slow but not one with broken shutter/aperture blades, for instance. Normal wear is generally easily resolved; broken is not.

[Daniel Unkefer]

If you buy a Sinar Mechanical Copal Shutter you can adapt it to your boards and camera(s), and then use any barrel lens on those. Very economical in that sense and gives you a lot of choices

[danielha]

Thank you all for your advises !

Tin Can, I'll start modest with 4x5. Anyway, I'll try to think & buy a hat too :-)

BrianShaw, I'll keep that in mind.

Daniel

[Dan Fromm]

daniel, demandez chez galerie-photo.com/forum

[Len Middleton]

Electronic shutters are a bad idea. Not that they are not working well but because there is not that much people who will know how to repair them. So when all goes wrong, there is not much to be done. That, I do understand.



A key issue with electronics is the ability to get the bits needed to keep them going are generally only going to be from the manufacturer of the unit, and electronics typically have a relatively short marketplace lifetime.

Mechanical bits can be potentially reworked or new ones made, or old shutters cannibalized, if the skills and desire exist.

Not so for electronic circuit boards (especially flexible ones required for packaging), nor for specialized electronic components (integrated circuits).

[danielha]

Thanks for the reminder Dan ! I sometimes forget to check french forums :-)

Daniel

[Tin Can]

OP

We insist you make a couple images without a 'normal' shutter

Think about it and make some

All paths lead back home

[danielha]

Tin Can,

Does this count for a "normal" shutter ? The pinhole does works. The 4x5 "holder" is made from 2mm thick carbox. I can choose between a .3mm or a .4mm pinhole for the shooting. And I have 3 focal length (90mm, 70mm and 50mm). However, I did not take the wide angle into account. So I can only use 90mm if I want to use the full 4x5 film :-)

I call it "The dude" :cool:

Lesson learned :-)

This indeed was fun to "build" :-)

216375

Daniel

[Tin Can]

Excellent!

You know what you are doing! ...i was a little worried...

Buy the newest looking all black Copal as originally mounted with a modern lens, I shop Japan

One day soon all the good stuff will be gone

I screw around a lot, but when I want a good neg, the above always works


Tin Can,

Does this count for a "normal" shutter ? The pinhole does works. The 4x5 "holder" is made from 2mm thick carbox. I can choose between a .3mm or a .4mm pinhole for the shooting. And I have 3 focal length (90mm, 70mm and 50mm). However, I did not take the wide angle into account. So I can only use 90mm if I want to use the full 4x5 film :-)

I call it "The dude" :cool:

Lesson learned :-)

This indeed was fun to "build" :-)

216375

Daniel

[danielha]

Hello again :-)

It took me quite some time to find a couple of lenses I'd want to buy. So I now have to make the final choice.

On one side, I do have a Fujinon SW 90mm f8 with a Copal 0 model C (thick silver speed ring). Both lens and shutter seem splendid. I have no clue on a manufacturing date.

On the other side, I do have a Schneider Super Angulon 90mm f8 with a Copal 0 model B (all black). Serial Number brings the lens back to 1986 / 1987. Logically I'd go with the Super Angulon with its younger shutter. However the lens is not as clean as the fujinon's. Do I have to fear this :

216383

I understand that the paint missing is not too much of a concern but there's still something I don't understand in the center of the lens. If anyone has an opinion, I'd be happy to discuss it.

Regards,
Daniel

[BrianShaw]

Have no fear. Don’t fear that.

BTW, some of the best performing shutters can be the older ones. Age, alone, is not a very good criteria.

[Bernice Loui]

Those are areas circled in red can happen to any lens (Zeiss, Fujinon, Schneider, Nikon, Rodenstock and others). It is edge painting chipped off. Can often be made to look better by applying a black Sharpie marker to the affected area. Has essentially near zero effect on the film image produced by a lens with this.

IMO, this is not a proper criterial for optical performance of any lens. What IS important, image produced on film by any given lens. Visual beauty of a lens does not mean or define it's optical performance in many ways.

Lens choice should be made based on the image produced on film and not it's visual appeal alone.


Bernice




Hello again :-)

It took me quite some time to find a couple of lenses I'd want to buy. So I now have to make the final choice.

On one side, I do have a Fujinon SW 90mm f8 with a Copal 0 model C (thick silver speed ring). Both lens and shutter seem splendid. I have no clue on a manufacturing date.

On the other side, I do have a Schneider Super Angulon 90mm f8 with a Copal 0 model B (all black). Serial Number brings the lens back to 1986 / 1987. Logically I'd go with the Super Angulon with its younger shutter. However the lens is not as clean as the fujinon's. Do I have to fear this :

216383

I understand that the paint missing is not too much of a concern but there's still something I don't understand in the center of the lens. If anyone has an opinion, I'd be happy to discuss it.

Regards,
Daniel

[danielha]

Thank you for your comment Bernice !

I did ask because I was not able to tell if this was important or not. I know that paint chipping off may not be a problem. But I had never seen some "paint correction" inside a lens and I didn't understand what I was seing on the picture !

I understand that the visual aspect may not mean everything about a lens. But I have to trust some guy halfway accross the globe based on criterias which are not the "image produced on film" as you say.

So far, I understand that both lenses, if working as expected, should be able to produce very nice images. Do I know if any of them have misaligned glass or any other kind of problem ? I know that they have no haze or fungus. I know that they have no extreme scratch and maybe one or two more details. That's all for now. I'll ask the seller. But chances are that the answer will be "The lens is good. No problem with it. Look at the picture, it's nice.".

So, for me, having clean lens & shutter tells me that both may have been treated with care. It's a start. It's not enough, especially when talking about 40 years old lenses. I understand that.

Daniel

[Bernice Loui]

Test any potential lens for ownership extensively before making a commitment to own, this is often a long term relationship. This is why right to return is SO important. If the lens in question radiates with stunning beauty, but optical performance a total dud.. consider what might justify a long term relationship with that lens?

Age of any lens is often insignificant, many of the lenses used to this day were made in the 1950 or earlier. One Cooke Aviar was made about 1919, optically GOOD. Most recent lenses would be the two Schneider 110mm & 150mm Super Symmar XL and 72mm Super Angulon XL made in the late 1990's. What should be the prime criteria for developing any relationship with any individual lens.. Does that lens meet your image goal needs, does not need to win a beauty contest, it needs to meet your image goal requirements, expectations, demands.

In this specific case of a modern 90mm wide angle, makes about zero difference between the Schneider or Fujinon or Rodenstock or Nikkor, they can both easily exceed your image goal needs_if there is a good understanding of what the limitations are inherent in any view camera wide angle lens based on the current understanding of the way Nature is. The more common problem area for view camera lenses, shutters, due to their mechanical nature. Lens cells and glass can be subjected to weird stuff that can cause them to not perform as designed, as produced. Be aware of lens cells that have been re-shuttered. Some of these lens cells were once in a dead shutter, then moved to a different shutter. Common and usually ok if proper attention is paid to lens cell spacers and cell spacing with accuracy and precision required (tolerances are in the 0.001" or 0.04mm or less range) for proper optical performance. Another common lens cell source would be Sinar DB mounted lenses, same requirements apply. Absolute give-away lens has been hanker_ed with, incorrect aperture scale, incorrect shutter for the age of the lens cells, and similar. One example appeared on LFF recently:
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?163945-Doubts-about-Schneider-Tele-Xenar-360mm-5-5

Basically, do LOTs of testing before accepting or making a try for a long term relationship with said lens.


Bernice



Thank you for your comment Bernice !

I did ask because I was not able to tell if this was important or not. I know that paint chipping off may not be a problem. But I had never seen some "paint correction" inside a lens and I didn't understand what I was seing on the picture !

I understand that the visual aspect may not mean everything about a lens. But I have to trust some guy halfway accross the globe based on criterias which are not the "image produced on film" as you say.

So far, I understand that both lenses, if working as expected, should be able to produce very nice images. Do I know if any of them have misaligned glass or any other kind of problem ? I know that they have no haze or fungus. I know that they have no extreme scratch and maybe one or two more details. That's all for now. I'll ask the seller. But chances are that the answer will be "The lens is good. No problem with it. Look at the picture, it's nice.".

So, for me, having clean lens & shutter tells me that both may have been treated with care. It's a start. It's not enough, especially when talking about 40 years old lenses. I understand that.

Daniel

[abruzzi]

While I can certainly understand Bernice's desire to test lenses prior to ownership, in many cases its just not practical. In my case, since beginning playing with 4x5, two years ago, I have never seen another person shooting a LF camera and the only camera shop in my city of 200k is Best Buy. I'm sure there are some other LF shooter here, but I've never met them.

So to test I'd need to do a mail order rental or something like that--or a private person loaning me their by mail. If I was buying a $2000 lens, hell yeah, I'd want to do that. But I bought a 90mm ƒ8 SA sight unseen from KEH recently for $100.* It was listed as "Ugly" but I'd call it immaculate. You can find the SA 90/8 for $1000 on ebay, but the vast majority of them are well under $300.

The point is that beginners (which I'd still definitely consider myself) are mostly shopping at the bottom end of the market and much of that thourough detailed approach is better done after purchase, and for that reason getting other's feedback optical qualities, and using proxies such as cosmetic condition are a tried and true approaches.

* I think it was this cheap because it was listed as "24MT", i.e. a 24mm mount, or Copal 00. But the one then sent me was in a copal 0 shutter. Even so, these are mostly inexpensive lenses.

[danielha]

Thanks for the detailed advice Bernice !

Daniel

[Bernice Loui]

If the lens in question could be shipped to your receiving address, package can be shipped out from that same location/address lens testing is absolutely possible. It comes down to right to return, shipping cost, film, time and related resources required to test-check out the lens for ownership.

Loaner lens might not have the same optical performance or mechanical performance as the lens for purchase.

All that said, there appears to be a set of Foto habits carried over from digital or 35mm/120 roll film foto gear habits that do not apply to this view camera stuff. Vast majority of view camera stuff was never designed, made or intended for "hobbyist" photographers. The view camera market was majority working photographers, creative artist and image makers very serious about their work. This is due to the nature of view camera as a photographic method and practice.

View camera lenses are simple compared to roll film or digital camera lenses. This innate simplicity greatly reduces the demands on much touted marketing Toots like "electro" beam uber multi-coating using exotic rare earth materials that makes little if any difference or have any advantage over single magnesium fluorite coating from circa 1940's. This fact is due to the number of optical elements involved with view camera lenses compared to the modern digital or roll film camera lens. Add to this, typical magnification ratio or enlargement for sheet film to print size is typically lower than roll film reducing the optical performance demands lens and film materials.

There is zero budget or "bottom end" about a 90mm f8 Super Angulon. A good example will trounce any 35mm roll film lens of similar angle of view for image making performance. It goes back to the fact and reality view camera lenses were never designs for "hobbyist" market or do not be deceived by the current overly discounted market price as they were not low cost back in the times when these lenses were new.

Know the odds of acquiring a extremely fine view camera lens goes up if the creative image maker stays with a modern lens design like the 90mm f8 Super Angulon, or view camera lens from any of the big four Fujinon, Schneider, Nikkor, Rodenstock. These are typically produced in a modern Copal, Seiko, Compur, Prontor shutter. As previously written, the shutter has more possibility of being an issue due to it's mechanical nature, lens cells less so but quite possible.

Most common focal length set for 5x4:

~90mm wide angle.

~150mm <-> 210mm "Normal".

~270mm <-> 360mm "Tele Photo".


That is essentially it. Decided on lens focal length needed to achieve your image goals, then decide on what camera meets the needs of the lens choices. Lens drives camera's ability. This is opposite from the digital-roll film camera universe. It is due to the non-fixed light tight box nature of a view camera and the lenses designed to a given focal length without a fixed back focal distance.


Bernice





While I can certainly understand Bernice's desire to test lenses prior to ownership, in many cases its just not practical. In my case, since beginning playing with 4x5, two years ago, I have never seen another person shooting a LF camera and the only camera shop in my city of 200k is Best Buy. I'm sure there are some other LF shooter here, but I've never met them.

So to test I'd need to do a mail order rental or something like that--or a private person loaning me their by mail. If I was buying a $2000 lens, hell yeah, I'd want to do that. But I bought a 90mm ƒ8 SA sight unseen from KEH recently for $100.* It was listed as "Ugly" but I'd call it immaculate. You can find the SA 90/8 for $1000 on ebay, but the vast majority of them are well under $300.

The point is that beginners (which I'd still definitely consider myself) are mostly shopping at the bottom end of the market and much of that thourough detailed approach is better done after purchase, and for that reason getting other's feedback optical qualities, and using proxies such as cosmetic condition are a tried and true approaches.

* I think it was this cheap because it was listed as "24MT", i.e. a 24mm mount, or Copal 00. But the one then sent me was in a copal 0 shutter. Even so, these are mostly inexpensive lenses.

[danielha]

Abruzzi,

Thanks for sharing your point of view !

Bernice,

The only concern I do have about buying abroad from ebay is simple as that : If I need to send the lens back, I'm still loosing 25% tax (I'm pretty sure I won't get that back). This is something that just hit me last night.

Anyway, thanks for your last message, there is much to consider in it :-)

Daniel

[ridax]

I am for Compurs and Compaunds.... And my reasons are not about durability:-

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?105191-Shutter-Efficiency-amp-Picture-BEAUTY

That said, I actually use my Packard more often. :)

[danielha]

Thanks for joining the conversation Ridax !

I will need to read your thread a couple of time before I am able to fully grab all the information :-)

Daniel