Doubts about Schneider Tele-Xenar 360mm 5.5

[afotandolaciudad]

Hello

I've just bought one of these lenses. Serial number tell it is from 1954.

Shutter is copal 3 but it isn't its original shutter (max aperture is 4.5 instead of 5.5. See pic #1. I guess this can be corrected with the new focal lenght and shutter data.

But I'm worried about cells separation. I need to know how it is mounted other lenses like mine. I have several brochures about tele Xenar lenses. They say that total lenght (h1) is 110mm. Mine is 102.5mm (!). And rear leght to seat is 27.1mm. Mine is 22.3mm. See pics #2 and #3.

I wonder if can be different versions of this lens. I have different data on angle and IC as you can see in pics #4 and #5. One says 32 degrees and 206mm. Other says 35 degrees and 230mm. What a mess!

Csn somebody give me advice on this. Maybe I have to ad shims to get the correct distance...



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210601/c54702172a7ec1d2369dd95bcf5c4eef.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210601/556cfe4bda074f27542e201c1a4518e0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210601/cbf4c8d81e042a33b88b2322e35f5381.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210601/8a317bc232683c6d132022c351c562fc.jpg

[afotandolaciudad]

Pic #5https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210601/ee3df72834a2004f69500b9effd4ca08.jpg

[Leszek Vogt]

Have you to had a chance to install this lens on the camera ? Just measured mine (w/o calipers) and it's very close to 108mm. My shutter (Copal No.3) is from F5.5 to F32, however when I checked it physically, it opens up little more and closes more beyond F32....there is that. Part of this conundrum is that Copal No. 3 could also be 3S or any number of imposter shutters, where the thread can be different....and not annotated properly. There was a thread on this some time ago....no solid conclusions. Hope this is of some help.

Les

[afotandolaciudad]

Thanks for you reply.

So your h1 (overall length) is 108 (aprox). Mine is 102.5mm and a friend's copy is 109.6mm.

How about h2 (shitter seat to lens rear). Mine is 22.3mm. My friend has 19.22mm. Brochure says 27.1mm (pic #3) and other brochure says 30.8mm (pic #5). What's yours? I guess the fifth number here.

[Bernice Loui]

Copal# 3S shutters were not made circa 1954. This means the 360mm Tele Xenar lens cells were re-mounted into this Copal# 3S shutter. Given this, the original lens cell setting has been lost over those decades. The only way to have some assurance of proper lens cell fitment to this Copal# 3S shutter is for a qualified optical specialist to check and re-set up the lens cell set to this shutter.

Anything less than this cannot assure proper optical performance. Guesses on "length and etc.. are of little value other than entertainment value as the tolerances involved are in the 0.001" or 0.04mm range.

Give up any expectations this 360mm Tele Xenar will have the optical performance it was originally designed-produced with.




Bernice

[Tin Can]

Bernice is right

It is hard to trust any old lense now and they are all old

I will try to remember to check mine tomorrow

Now I need to send myself an email delivered in the morning...

Mine is definitely original and works

[abruzzi]

I'll add that I'd be surprised if there weren't multiple version of this lens. I have a 360mm Tele-Arton and a 270mm Tele-Arton, and when I got them, I was looking things up and found evidence of some significantly different versions. Even if they are not opticallly different, the size of the front and rear groups are differen't making a simple measurement a little difficult to say much about. For example, my 270mm has a small front group and huge rear group like this:

https://www.keh.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2ebdbedaccdf4a424bbc6b73229cdac6/3/5/355917_03_1000x1000.jpg

But others have a huge front group and a small rear group:

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/283847388696_/Schneider-Tele-Arton-270mm-F-55-Lens-for-Linhof-Technika.jpg

So the point is, don't necessarily trust the spec sheet you have. A quick google showed me at least two physical versions--one with a tapered front barrel and one with a straight front barrel. The straight barrel looks newer. I see multiple different ones witha tapered barrel, but those may be cosmetic changes. I also see a very long M42 one, but that doesn't count.

[Leszek Vogt]

Thanks for you reply.

So your h1 (overall length) is 108 (aprox). Mine is 102.5mm and a friend's copy is 109.6mm.

How about h2 (shitter seat to lens rear). Mine is 22.3mm. My friend has 19.22mm. Brochure says 27.1mm (pic #3) and other brochure says 30.8mm (pic #5). What's yours? I guess the fifth number here.


Since I have a lens board in the way, my h2 reads as around 20.5mm....again, no calipers to read this more accurately. I had this optic on the camera, so I can verify that it functions accordingly.

Les

[Paul Ewins]

That era of Tele-Xenar would have been in a Compound III/7, which is the same as the 300/5.6 Symmar. Overall length is given as 110mm or 111mm in a few different brochures from the 50s and 60s. The tube length of a Compound III/7 is 37 mm while the thickness of a Copal 3 is 31.5mm so there is a potential discrepancy right there.

[Ari]

Have you tested by exposing any film using this lens? Or focusing it on a ground glass?
Maybe it's fine.

[Bernice Loui]

Given the factual realities of this specific example of a clearly molested 360mm Tele Xenar, it should be returned to the seller for a full refund.

Yet, this lens is a good example of pressing all the current market desirability buttons:

~Copal shutter.

~Vintage lens.

~Possible bargain price.

~Folks new to view camera are vulnerable to a long list of exploitable beliefs-ideas due to stuff published on the web (must be factual and true as it was found on the web).

~Newly minted view camera user is not likely going to have a lot of experience with what truly exceptional images view camera optics are capable of producing. Note this is not the same or should be accepted as lens "personality".. or as Dan would say, " Lens Abuse."

Possible the image produced on the GG is ok, question remains, does this lens perform as designed, as originally produced by Schneider circa 1950's ?



Bernice

[afotandolaciudad]

Thanks to all for your replies. I`ve read and appreciate all of them.


That era of Tele-Xenar would have been in a Compound III/7, which is the same as the 300/5.6 Symmar. Overall length is given as 110mm or 111mm in a few different brochures from the 50s and 60s. The tube length of a Compound III/7 is 37 mm while the thickness of a Copal 3 is 31.5mm so there is a potential discrepancy right there.

You have the key. I`ve tried to unscrew both cells and only get max. 106.2mm of total length. I don`t have a Compound III/7 (only a Compund IV/10 totally useless here).

[afotandolaciudad]

I have found a table that says Compound III / 7 + 3.

What does that "+ 3" mean?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210604/a4c809d09575f5042691aafd04ca0c97.jpg

[Dan Fromm]

III/ 7 + 3 is a model designation. See https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?23904-Compound-shutter-sizes

[afotandolaciudad]

it's okay. I will ask in a different way. What is the difference between these pairs?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210604/6ba0a8643cf8ae8e7ddd6784dd5a3a4b.jpg

[Dan Fromm]

What is that table? Where is it from?

[afotandolaciudad]

What is that table? Where is it from?Friedrich W. Voigt: Schneider- Objektive fur Foto, Film und Fernsehen, Seebruck 1971.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Can you mount the lens and look through it? I use a 10X printer's loupe and really examine the glass image. Stop it down and see what happens!

I have a fairly complete collection of Tele-Xenars, and Tele-Artons, and they are all quite good. This is a 5x7 lens

BTW my clockmaker friend once told me that the most robust, and longest lasting without future problem shutters, are the air-powered Compounds.

[Paul Ewins]

I have found a table that says Compound III / 7 + 3.

What does that "+ 3" mean?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210604/a4c809d09575f5042691aafd04ca0c97.jpg

At a guess, it means it was available in either a Compound III/7 or a Copal 3. See the one directly below it the lists a V/12 + 5FS, that would be a Compound V or a Compur-Electronic 5S.
(edit) I guess the plus sign makes more sense if we say that it is available in both a Compound III/7 and a Copal 3.

[afotandolaciudad]

At a guess, it means it was available in either a Compound III/7 or a Copal 3. See the one directly below it the lists a V/12 + 5FS, that would be a Compound V or a Compur-Electronic 5S.
(edit) I guess the plus sign makes more sense if we say that it is available in both a Compound III/7 and a Copal 3.You're right. I found in this book that "3" is the name that Mr. W. Voigt give to Compur Electronic 3. So it refers to the availability of the lens in both compound iii and compur electronic 3.

Thanks!

[afotandolaciudad]

I have tested (loupe on the gg) the lens against other mounted on Compound iii. My lens is totally soft on the copal 3 but when mounted on this compound it turns sharp as the other lens. It seems that the 7mm shorter when mounted on the copal 3 is the problem. Front cell is very similar in distance to iris in both lenses so all the problem is in the rear cell. I have ordered a spacer by Rafcamera (10mm m56x0.75 male to m56x0.75 female). I hope this solve the problem.

[Daniel Unkefer]

I have tested (loupe on the gg) the lens against other mounted on Compound iii. My lens is totally soft on the copal 3 but when mounted on this compound it turns sharp as the other lens. It seems that the 7mm shorter when mounted on the copal 3 is the problem. Front cell is very similar in distance to iris in both lenses so all the problem is in the rear cell. I have ordered a spacer by Rafcamera (10mm m56x0.75 male to m56x0.75 female). I hope this solve the problem.

If it were me I would sell the Copal #3 and buy another Compound III. Then spacing problems go away and all you would have to deal with is computing the new f/stops which can be done with direct measurement. A good gas powered Compound has very little to service over time excepting the piston getting dirty. My clockmaker friend says they are the most reliable type of shutter over time. Air pressure is very constant consistent. I have three Tele-Xenar 360s and they are all GOOD. One is set up for Plaubel Makiflex Automatic Iris automation.

[afotandolaciudad]

Thanks Daniel.
I've written a WTB announce in the forum some days ago but it seems something not easy at all.
My most used camera (MPP Mark viii) has some problems when mounting copal 3 (I need to go slowly and to rise a little the front standard). No problems when mounting compound III. But for now is the easiest way to go.

[David Lindquist]

At the risk of information overload, at one time Copal supplied Schneider with No. 3 shutters with threads and tube length that matched the No. 3 Compound, see: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?155781-Copal-3-Shutter

I have a 360 mm Tele-Xenar mounted in a No. 3 Copal. Its threads are consistent with the M55.69 x 40 threads per inch of the No. 3 Compound and its tube length is 37 mm, also consistent with the No. 3 Compound. These dimensions are not consistent with a standard No. 3 or 3s Copal, the No. 3 being threaded M58-.75 with a tube length of 32 mm and the 3s being threaded M56-.75 with a tube length 28.6 mm. By its serial number my Tele-Xenar was made circa 1967-1968. I have a hunch that it later years Schneider used the standard No. 3 Copal but I don't know that for sure.

David

[afotandolaciudad]

At the risk of information overload, at one time Copal supplied Schneider with No. 3 shutters with threads and tube length that matched the No. 3 Compound, see: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?155781-Copal-3-Shutter

I have a 360 mm Tele-Xenar mounted in a No. 3 Copal. Its threads are consistent with the M55.69 x 40 threads per inch of the No. 3 Compound and its tube length is 37 mm, also consistent with the No. 3 Compound. These dimensions are not consistent with a standard No. 3 or 3s Copal, the No. 3 being threaded M58-.75 with a tube length of 32 mm and the 3s being threaded M56-.75 with a tube length 28.6 mm. By its serial number my Tele-Xenar was made circa 1967-1968. I have a hunch that it later years Schneider used the standard No. 3 Copal but I don't know that for sure.

David
Very interesting.
Your shutter is some kind of hybrid. Mine is labeled as Copal 3 but threads are 56x0.75 (3s).

Edit.
Can you help me measuring f-stop numbers in this copal 3. I would need diameter full open, 5.5, 8... 32. This would be exceptionally helpful. My shutter belongs to other lens (I don't know what lens) and begins at f/4.5. Maybe it came from xenar 210.

[Paul Ewins]

To confuse things slightly more; when the Compur 2 and Compound III, IV and V became unavailable Schneider responded by using the next shutter size up with adapter rings/bushes to make up the differences in diameter. Sometimes when you remove the cells from the shutter the ring will stick in the shutter, other times it sticks to the cell and it isn't immediately obvious that there is an adapter ring in place. So the 240 Symmar (and 150 Xenotar) went from a Compur 2 to a Copal 3 and the 300 Symmar (and the 360 Tele-Xenar) went from a Compound III to a Copal 3. The 360 Symmar went the other way, going from a Compound IV to a Copal 3 and being reborn as the 355/6.8 Symmar. This also seems to be the case if you wanted the Compur Electronic which wan't available in a size 2 or 4. In any case, in the US at least, you could order a lot of lenses in other shutters like the Alphax/Betax or Ilex if you desired.

[afotandolaciudad]

I've received the ring from Rafcamera, put it on the rear cell and adjust to 110mm overall length.
Now the image on the GG is sharp (it was very soft before and overall length was 102,5mm).
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210630/1b51e4e140ab2448939f7e0df97c3e57.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210630/3b26e9c88575951cc943e0036d97fcfc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210630/bb459d7ea819517ff880d09196ba86d3.jpg

[Tin Can]

Ok, good news!

Now the odd news

There is a member here that shoots beautiful portraits with only the front half of that lens

I leave it to my friend to tell that story

[afotandolaciudad]

Ok, good news!

Now the odd news

There is a member here that shoots beautiful portraits with only the front half of that lens

I leave it to my friend to tell that storyI would like to see these images!

[Tin Can]

Making your own is far better

for you


I would like to see these images!

[linhofbiker]

I know this is an old thread, but I just obtained a Tele Xenar 360 in a Compur electronic 3 shutter in really fine condition. It is a Linhof selected lens serial # 11,46X,XXX and looks like it was originally put into this shutter. I cleaned up the two contacts and used a new battery and the speeds all work. I like these shutters because they are simple with one mechanical speed that is moderated by electronics from the space age i.e. 1950's into the 1960's and perhaps the 1970's. This serial number is from about 1970.