Avoiding purple tones with selenium...

[Dwayne Martin]

Hi Gang, has anyone worked out a way to tone ilford mg fb classic with selenium and keep it black rather than purple ish? I am using the stronger 1/9 mix but I get purple even with a short time of one minute. The selenium is ilford brand...

Thanks

[Durst L184]

I haven't worked much with Ilford MG or Ilford's brand of selenium toner. But I would think that 1:9 is just way too strong to avoid the color shift. 1:20 or weaker I think might solve your problem. When I am treating a paper that insists upon color shifting, I sometimes make even much weaker dilutions --1:30, 1:45. I am only after deeper blacks, by the way --not necessarily archival effects. I frankly don't know myself, but some folks feel (presumably on respectable authority of some sorts) that there is no archival effect without a color shift. I'm not sure and venture no opinion on that question.

[jim_jm]

I haven't used Ilford toners, but with Kodak Rapid Selenium I get very little to no color shift at 1+20 with Ilford FB MG Classic. I usually leave it in the toner for 3-5 minutes.
Try the Ilford at a higher dilution and see if this helps.

[neil poulsen]

My solution . . . avoid selenium.

Even at 1:20, I don't like the effect that selenium toner has on an image. (I print with Ilford Warmtone.) It would be nice to get the limited archival properties that Se toning can bring to an image. BUT, not at the expense of the image.

[koraks]

Hi Gang, has anyone worked out a way to tone ilford mg fb classic with selenium and keep it black rather than purple ish? I am using the stronger 1/9 mix but I get purple even with a short time of one minute. The selenium is ilford brand...

Thanks
Dilute further or shorten toning time. Since your time is already short, further dilution is the most sensible approach.

If you like this paper's tone without selenium toning, then just skip toning. The notion that very light selenium toning would contribute to print permanence is a myth.

[esearing]

Print and Fix as normal (make several test prints or cut some prints up) - WASH !!!
- Bleach print entirely or at least through the middle tones but the blacks should have some reduction using a reducing bleach (Farmers reducer or Pot-Ferri)
- fully redevelop using 1/4 to 1/10 strength developer (may take 10-15 minutes)
- WASH!!! (let dry, color may be warmer than before or less dense in shadows)
- rewet, fully selenium tone - color will shift to more of a brownish tone.

You can do the bleach and redevelop in room light. The effect is different for images with lots of highlights vs mostly dark tones. The redeveloper can be different than the original developer and may yield different results. I generally use LPD as the second developer as it has a warming tonality of its own when diluted 1:8.

I like a 1:15 toner mix which is the compromise between speed and control if doing partial toning but it still goes purple if toning right after printing.
Ilford MGFB Warmtone is a warmer color than the classic paper with selenium.

Partial toning or full toning with Thiourea, Nelsons Gold Toner, or the poly toners will give you more color choices.
If you use a dichromate bleach you will get a warmer tone than a reducing Pot-ferri bleach and yields more edge sharpness because it can harden and tan the emulsion in the darker tones.
Pyrocat HD as the second pass redeveloper gives a warm olive-ish tone and has an increased visual sharpness. 10-10-1000 will do a couple of 8x10s but like film developing is used one shot. Slow redevelopment and image goes muddy for a while, let it fully develop. Paper will stain.

Water quality may make a difference in all of this. Use distilled or filtered water if your area has lots of chemicals or impurities.

[John Layton]

I'm completely with Neil on this one...I will only use selenium (or any other toner for that matter) if I absolutely feel that it actually helps a given image to achieve what I want it to visually. All else (including any supposed gains in "archival" properties) is secondary!

Oh...yeah (not so fast Oren!) - the actual question: I find that 1:19 for between four and seven minutes, at least for Ilford Classic, gives a tonal shift without going purple. But YMMV.

As for MGWT? I'd much rather not tone at all...but go to a developer like Moersche SE-6. Incredible stuff for subjects like this: (have cooled those highlights somewhat in final prints)

216314 216315

[Drew Wiley]

Depends on the specific paper and developer involved. Good ole Galerie graded paper was the only one I ever worked with that didn't shift brownish in selenium. Purple-brown was more characteristic of Brilliant Bromide, and now MCC VC paper. When I want a true cold tone, I tone with gold chloride instead; but it's ironically coolest when you use a slightly warm developer first, like 130. MGWT and similar warmtone VC papers tend to split tone if that is taken far enough; but that's a slightly different topic. I personally use selenium very very conservatively, for just a tweak of extra tonal depth or balance in relation to other toners. It sometimes makes all the difference between a nice print and a truly outstanding one.

[Duolab123]

Depends on the specific paper and developer involved. Good ole Galerie graded paper was the only one I ever worked with that didn't shift brownish in selenium. Purple-brown was more characteristic of Brilliant Bromide, and now MCC VC paper. When I want a true cold tone, I tone with gold chloride instead; but it's ironically coolest when you use a slightly warm developer first, like 130. MGWT and similar warmtone VC papers tend to split tone if that is taken far enough; but that's a slightly different topic. I personally use selenium very very conservatively, for just a tweak of extra tonal depth or balance in relation to other toners. It sometimes makes all the difference between a nice print and a truly outstanding one.

Another vote for Gold. I use Kodak Blue Toner which goes cold blue with warmtone papers. I love gold with chloride rich papers like Azo, just goes pure black.
I use Kodak Selenium strong, 1+3, 2 minutes @ 20°C. With Ilford RC, I get better D max, not purple.
As described it's very tricky, extend toning times with VC papers (like the famous Polywarmtone) and it splits like crazy.

[Ulophot]

Temperature has not been mentioned, and I note that Devorobin lives in Sarasota, FL, though presumably with air-conditioning. In any case, selenium toning speeds up as the temp rises. You might wish, along wit hthe higher dilutions recommended above, to hold your toning bath at 68 degrees F, or a bit lower.

[Doremus Scudder]

If your paper tones too quickly, use a weaker dilution. In my experience, dilution does not affect the final image tone, however; it just takes longer to reach with a weaker dilution. Still, using a weaker dilution will give you time to pull the print before it becomes too purple for your taste.

The other option is to use a different paper that tones differently. Choices these days are rather limited, however. I really miss the old Seagull G and how it toned in selenium. The old Ilfobrom (not Galerie) toned beautifully in selenium too, as did Brilliant and even Kodak Elite. All gone now.

We have to work with what we have,

Best,

Doremus

[Dwayne Martin]

Temperature has not been mentioned, and I note that Devorobin lives in Sarasota, FL, though presumably with air-conditioning. In any case, selenium toning speeds up as the temp rises. You might wish, along wit hthe higher dilutions recommended above, to hold your toning bath at 68 degrees F, or a bit lower.

It is hot here no doubt about it but I keep my darkroom at a constant 71 degrees, that is warmer than ideal but probably not a deal breaker. It would take a lot of extra effort to cool things further with tempering baths of something similar.

I would also point out that in my case the color shift seems to be a lot less the next day when the print has dried.

Thanks

[Mark Sampson]

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

[esearing]

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

I get a purple aubergine tone every time regardless of dilution on MGFB Classic with selenium, it just takes longer. Water impurities/differences maybe? People used to say there were different tones based on developer and fixer used but I have never been able to prove that.

[Michael R]

I get a purple aubergine tone every time regardless of dilution on MGFB Classic with selenium, it just takes longer. Water impurities/differences maybe? People used to say there were different tones based on developer and fixer used but I have never been able to prove that.

It is possible different developers might influence this to a limited extent. Toning could also take longer if a hardening fixer is used, although that is rare these days.

Ilford MG Classic tones much more strongly than MGIV. Ilford designed it to do that, so I found with KRST in order to just "neutralize" the colour of MG Classic, I had to dilute to at least 1:20 (or even 1:30-1:40) with my preferred toning time of 5 minutes. Any stronger than 1:20 and I got a significant colour shift with that toning time.

Of course there are variables here, which could explain the difference between what I see and what Mark is seeing. People perceive colours in different ways. Lighting can make a difference too.

[Doremus Scudder]

This is odd, but... I've been printing with Ilford Multicontrast Classic and Adox MCC lately, and I can't get any color shift at all with KRST @1:20. Doesn't matter how long I leave the print in the toner (at nominal room temp). I wouldn't mind a bit of color shift... one of these days I'll test at stronger dilutions. 1:3 will do it I'm sure!

I use both these papers and have no problem getting a tonal shift with KRST. A stronger dilution will likely get you some results, but don't jump to 1+3 from 1+20... Maybe try something in between. However, print developer can make a difference here. I use mostly ID-62 and D-72 these days (Bromophen and Zone VI in the past) and get fine toning. I used to use the Formulary glycin developer BW-65 and had a hard time getting a tonal change with that (the tone from the developer was beautiful by itself, however).

BTW, if you haven't read my posts about replenishing and re-using selenium toner, I'll recommend it (just search here on my name and selenium...)

In a nutshell, you add small amounts of toner concentrate to the working solution till you get toning times that you like. When toning times get too long, add a bit more to bring the toner back to strength.

You tone till you get the visual change you desire, not by the clock (which is pretty useless IM-HO).

Filter the working solution before and after use through filter paper or a coffee filter. It will last indefinitely this way. I have jugs that have been going for more than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

[Dwayne Martin]

I use both these papers and have no problem getting a tonal shift with KRST. A stronger dilution will likely get you some results, but don't jump to 1+3 from 1+20... Maybe try something in between. However, print developer can make a difference here. I use mostly ID-62 and D-72 these days (Bromophen and Zone VI in the past) and get fine toning. I used to use the Formulary glycin developer BW-65 and had a hard time getting a tonal change with that (the tone from the developer was beautiful by itself, however).

BTW, if you haven't read my posts about replenishing and re-using selenium toner, I'll recommend it (just search here on my name and selenium...)

In a nutshell, you add small amounts of toner concentrate to the working solution till you get toning times that you like. When toning times get too long, add a bit more to bring the toner back to strength.

You tone till you get the visual change you desire, not by the clock (which is pretty useless IM-HO).

Filter the working solution before and after use through filter paper or a coffee filter. It will last indefinitely this way. I have jugs that have been going for more than 10 years.

Best,

Doremus

I’m curious what you would be filtering out with the coffee filters? Residual silver, or a mix of everything the paper was immersed in before hand? Just curious. Obviously the selenium itself must pass through the filter….
D

[Doremus Scudder]

I’m curious what you would be filtering out with the coffee filters? Residual silver, or a mix of everything the paper was immersed in before hand? Just curious. Obviously the selenium itself must pass through the filter….
D

The used tones produces a fine black precipitate, a silver compound of some sort most likely. Since I transfer prints directly from the second fix to the toner, they still have fixed-out silver thiosulfate compounds in them. These go into the toner and bind with the selenium and precipitate out.

The selenium (and anything else) that is dissolved in the toner stays there when filtering; only the precipitated solids get removed. My toner remains very active for two or three toning sessions before needing a bit of replenishment.

Best,

Doremus

[Mark Sampson]

Well, once I get a small a/c unit for the darkroom, I'm going to make some tests and figure it out. I've been printing for forty years and my results are... anomalous... to say the least. Not unpleasant or unacceptable, but I want to know what's going on.

[esearing]

Thought I would share this image from my experimentation. All three images are Bergger CB Warm Tone paper developed with Photographers Formulary 106. Selenium 1:5 - Left 5:00 minutes, center 2:30, right untoned.
https://www.searing.photography/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/selenium_compared-1.jpg

[Ben Calwell]

I actually like the very slight purplish tone change that I get with Multigrade FB Classic. I tone at 1:10 for 6 minutes. If I remember from reading Fred Picker's book, he, too, liked the "cool purple" look of a selenium-toned print.

[esearing]

For those of you that don't like purple - Ilford MGFB Warmtone has a richer red-brown tone in Selenium when fully toned.
https://i1.wp.com/www.searing.photography/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/toning_comparison.jpg?w=1460&ssl=1