Color of Ansco/PF 130

[esearing]

Just mixed my third batch in 5 years of Formulary 130 paper developer (Ansco 130). The very first batch I ever made was a very light tea color - 1 liter kit 2016. Second batch was 8 liters and was a medium tea color in 2018 and it has darkened with age but still tea color. This last batch is 2 liters and it is almost the color of a cola.

What color should it be?
I have read that it functions normally even if diluted working solution is kept for a couple of months and turns dark. Just not sure it should start out that way.

[Chauncey Walden]

If the glycin gets old that will happen. If the image comes up in the usual time (hard to tell if submerged in the dark 130 though) then it is working OK. Keep your spare well sealed glycin in the freezer.

[Conrad . Marvin]

I used to mix Ansco 130 in 5000 ml batches with glycin bought fresh from the formulary then stored in 500ml containers filled up to the top. It will keep for a long time stored this way.
If the glycin is fresh it will be white and the mixed developer will be a very light tea color. I only bought enough for the batch I was going to make because if I tried to save money by buying a large amount , it would oxidize and turn gray rendering it useless. If you buy glycin and it’s not pure white, change your supplier.

[Alan9940]

I keep my glycin in the original black plastic bag (from Photo Formulary) with as much air as possible pushed out, then held closed with a rubber band. This "package" then goes into a freezer Zip Lock bag, again with as much air as possible removed. Then, it goes into a freezer. I've worked out of and had the same bag for a few years without issue. The powder is still as white as the day I bought it.

[Conrad . Marvin]

That’s a good idea, when my dark room is back up and working I will give it a try. 130 is a very nice tool to have in ones pocket.

[Drew Wiley]

Glycin powder itself goes from a slightly yellowish off-white when new, to greater degrees of tan, to mocha brown, to a deeper chocolate color, and then finally to almost black as it progressively oxidizes. The staining effect on your prints will also progressively change, at a certain point affecting just the highlights, and eventually staining the paper entirely. So you can fine tune your desired effect by the color of the glycin powder itself. For me, once it goes deep chocolate, its worthless. So I try to use up any thawed powder within six months. My strategy is to have three separate 100g bottles of powder on hand, one on the darkroom shelf, the other two completely sealed in the freezer until needed.

[esearing]

the Glycin was tan-ish and the kit was at least 8 months old plus however long it sat on PF's shelf, so my bad for not mixing it right away. I dilute the stock 1:2 most of the time so if the developer is still active I will be able to see through it. I have some Ethol LPD as backup.

[jnantz]

the Glycin was tan-ish and the kit was at least 8 months old plus however long it sat on PF's shelf, so my bad for not mixing it right away. I dilute the stock 1:2 most of the time so if the developer is still active I will be able to see through it. I have some Ethol LPD as backup.

sorry to hear of your troubles. I've used a130 for more than 20 years off / on and never heard of the PF shipping out old product. my poor guess is it was most likely during the 8 months at your place the Glycin got dark, the PF makes a fresh batch of Glycin every 2 weeks. they are the last place that still manufacturers the chemical and its a time consuming process. Maybe covid changed things but I don't think they would be. in the habit of selling substandard / old chemistry.

[Drew Wiley]

Yes, it's always a very light, fresh color when I get it from PF. But even back when I obtained in from a local dealer for Spectrum Chemical, it was at very pale tan, so relatively fresh. And they told me that photo grade glycin and amidol actually need to be purer and fresher than medical grade! - the assumption being that anything used for a pharmaceutical application was going to be further refined anyway, and just a component or intervening step in a more complex product chain.

[j.e.simmons]

Don Cardwell insisted on the old APUG that the failure of glycin due to age and tanning was an internet myth. He said he used old, dark glycin and it worked as well as new.

[jnantz]

I wonder if there is a simple test .. like the binary test to see if xtol has died or regular print developer is dead ( putting a scrap of film or paper in it with the lights on to
see if it reacts and how fast ) with glycin ( or metal or HQ &c to know how well the raw components are working... simpler the better because the more complex the test the easier it is
to screw it up ( or at least that is true for me ) ...

[Michael R]

I wonder if there is a simple test .. like the binary test to see if xtol has died or regular print developer is dead ( putting a scrap of film or paper in it with the lights on to
see if it reacts and how fast ) with glycin ( or metal or HQ &c to know how well the raw components are working... simpler the better because the more complex the test the easier it is
to screw it up ( or at least that is true for me ) ...

As long as you know your paper doesn't have any developer incorporated in the emulsion, then you can test to see if a developer is dead.

Testing for the activity level of specific developer components is a lot less straight forward - particularly when more than two developing agents are present (as is the case in Ansco 130), because if the metol and HQ are fine you'll get basically the same results whether the glycin is dead or alive.

[Drew Wiley]

I don't know who Don Cardwell was, but it was him foisting a myth. Glycin-based 130 is my most commonly used developer, and I have a pretty darn good idea at this point of how its behavior does indeed shift with progressive oxidation. Plenty of other highly experienced darkroom workers have noticed the same thing too, not to mention the folks who make the stuff to begin with. But some people seem perfectly content to confuse dirty dishwater for the next evenings bowl of soup.

[esearing]

I wonder if there is a simple test .. like the binary test to see if xtol has died or regular print developer is dead ( putting a scrap of film or paper in it with the lights on to
see if it reacts and how fast ) with glycin ( or metal or HQ &c to know how well the raw components are working... simpler the better because the more complex the test the easier it is
to screw it up ( or at least that is true for me ) ...

come on man, that sounds way too easy and will never work, total wast of time, Maybe I need to buy an expensive lens to take a test shot with. (sarcasm). Waiting on a shipment of paper so can try this weekend.

[Renato Tonelli]

Ansco 130 will 'work' (it will develop paper) with old, off-color Glycin but it will stain the paper; it is immediately apparent in the white borders of the print.

Over the past few years I've used Ansco 130 (purchased from the Formulary). As others have stated, the Glycin changes color as it gets old. It keeps well in the freezer. Once mixed, the developer has a very long life in the container (air sucked out).

[jnantz]

I don't know who Don Cardwell was, but it was him foisting a myth. Glycin-based 130 is my most commonly used developer, and I have a pretty darn good idea at this point of how its behavior does indeed shift with progressive oxidation. Plenty of other highly experienced darkroom workers have noticed the same thing too, not to mention the folks who make the stuff to begin with. But some people seem perfectly content to confuse dirty dishwater for the next evenings bowl of soup.

He never foisted any myth about anything. He had been known to know a great deal about many photographic subjects and post examples of his work along with information he spoke about. He wasn't the type of person with a heavy opinion, and who threw insults towards people he didn't know or was acquainted with, and ..he'd post examples of work when they spoke about various subjects. Its too bad you have to insult people claiming they are foisting myths and spreading BS...

come on man, that sounds way too easy and will never work, total wast of time, Maybe I need to buy an expensive lens to take a test shot with. (sarcasm). Waiting on a shipment of paper so can try this weekend.

good luck ! 130 is one of my favorite developers, if you need a Schneider xxl triple I might have one for you to borrow but it only works on a huge ebony..

[LabRat]

Well, 130 contains a healthy amount of other developing agents also, so if (when) the glycin is exhausted, it should still develop (differently) with the glycin inert in its coffee like color...

Steve K

[Drew Wiley]

BS is BS. There are obviously things that guy didn't know, and by deliberately using the term"myth", he was putting himself in the position of having the term boomerang right back at him, if that's what he actually said. Plenty of people know the actual aging characteristics of glycin, not just me. But he evidently wasn't one of them, again, if he actually ever stated that.

And as per glycin hypothetically "still working" after it's highly discolored - well, the problem is that it learns to do something additional - stain the paper overall. If you like that soaked in tea look, fine. I don't. It obscures too much tonality, even if you can tolerate the brown. But it was fun learning those boundaries or parameters, even if the handful of resultant prints instantly went to the reject stack.

[esearing]

Update: I finally got the enlarger fixed and had some free time this morning . The dark PF 130 performed as usual with no apparent staining. Mixed it 0.5Liter PF130 + 1 Liter of water. Ran through about 8 sheets of 11x14 and it was still going strong.

[Drew Wiley]

"As usual" doesn't say much. You'd have to make comparisons with actual fresh glycin and along the way down the road at intervals, using the same paper. There will be a tipping point when its unusable. In other words, if you want it to last, the powder should fresh (off white or barely tan) when you buy it. If you start out with brownish, it's already partially oxidized and has less of a useful lifespan left on it.

You're using it at 1:2 dilution, which is fine. I prefer 1:3. Starting with 500ml of formula (1/2 liter), I could easily do not only eight 11X14's, but eight 16X20's. It's rather stable and efficient, though I discard developer at the end of the day.

As far as image staining goes, there are two different ways this is talked about when it comes to 130. The first manner is the gentle nuance of "glow" obtained in highlights in the print due to glycin, which subtly shifts toward warmer as the glycin ages. The other kind of stain is overall, when even the borders of the print get discolored due to excessively old glycin. When glycin powder is really old, it looks almost black.

[esearing]

I made my developer comparisons a few years ago. I evaluated Ethol LPD, PF130, Ilford Multigrade, Ilford Universal, Liquidol, Dektol, Eco Pro and even some specialty developers like PF106 and PF120 on MGFB Classic Glossy paper. I ran 3 different contrast images through them to see what I liked best. I may try PF102 one day as it is a glycin developer without metol.

PF130 was the one that stood out among them all and gave the cleanest whites and darkest blacks. It can be really cold when used freshly mixed and 1:1 on Bergger VC papers.

Ethol LPD 1:4 or 1:8 on warm tone paper gives a very soft subtle feeling for low contrast middle tone images that has its own look, no real blacks. It takes 5+ minutes to fully develop but you can watch it go from muddy to clear as it completes.
Using LPD 1:1 on glossy paper is rich but not quite as nice as PF130.

I found the others to be merely adequate and blah in comparison.
I liked Liquidol the least but it was being branded as the new sliced bread at the time. Maybe better for RC papers.

As an experiment one day for an image that has a broad range of tones, I would like to try partial development in PF130 1:1 and partial in LPD 1:4 just to see what it does. Similar to how they used to control contrast using hard vs soft developers on graded papers.

[j.e.simmons]

With 130 you can also make small contrast variations - similar to using a water bath with amidol - by varying agitation time. For instance agitate for half the development time and let the print lie still in the developer for the other half.

[esearing]

With 130 you can also make small contrast variations - similar to using a water bath with amidol - by varying agitation time. For instance agitate for half the development time and let the print lie still in the developer for the other half.

I didn't know that - will have to try it as I usually just keep things moving in the developer. I have noticed the lighter grey tones seem to come in later than the rest of the dark and mid tones .
Also going to attempt bleach + very dilute second pass developer (1:10) this weekend to see if it alters the tone to a warmer or brownish tone. I don't think it will.

[Drew Wiley]

I strongly recommend against any kind of water-bath/amidol development of either Ilford Classic or Cooltone. Somebody might succeed if they can keep agitation going; but more likely things will come out splotchy, especially in open skies etc. I don't know why that is the case with these two. MGWT doesn't have the same idiosyncrasy, and would be a better choice. I've pretty much abandoned amidol for any VC paper, and now standardize on 130.

Reducing and bleaching also depends on the specific paper and developer, also on what specific toners are involved. Sometime, for better or worse, you end up with a localized split-tone effect. It a fun tweak to experiment with, and has sometimes landed me wonderful effects, and sometimes bellyflops. Whenever I have that kind of tinkering in mind, I make sure I have made spare prints in advance, with at least one or two left alone. It's easy to over-do this.

[esearing]

Also going to attempt bleach + very dilute second pass developer (1:10) this weekend to see if it alters the tone to a warmer or brownish tone. I don't think it will.

Update: Ansco/PF 130 as a second pass at 1:10 strength has almost no color change once dry. There may be some perceived differences due to the bleaching opening up the blacks some. Wet it does kind of look like it might go warmer.
Pyrocat-M as a second pass developer at 1:1:100 does have a much warmer tone when wet but dries just slightly warmer brown and may be due to slight paper stain. But its the look I am after so may try some warmer base papers in the future.
Both took about 10 minutes to bleach and then between 6 and 8 minutes to redevelop the image, going longer has no impact.
used plain tap water for dilution so your results may vary

MGFB Matte vs Glossy - nearly identical - differences could be original print differences but both have the same warmth.

[jnantz]

With 130 you can also make small contrast variations - similar to using a water bath with amidol - by varying agitation time. For instance agitate for half the development time and let the print lie still in the developer for the other half.

+1

[esearing]

With 130 you can also make small contrast variations - similar to using a water bath with amidol - by varying agitation time. For instance agitate for half the development time and let the print lie still in the developer for the other half.

I tried it. It is subtle but to my eye the highlights just don't come in fully as they do with constant agitation.
I also read the Formulary instructions for PF130 again (below). I typically am in a hot darkroom so my temperature is closer to 75* and I usually agitate for 2 minutes at 1:2 dilution. The print does come up in 30-40 seconds and could be pulled at 60 but there are upper and middle tones that seem to darken and sharpen during that extra minute.

USING THE DEVELOPER (PF130 Tech sheet)
For normal contrast - prepare the working solution by a 1:1 dilution of the stock solution with water. Develop the
print for 45-60 seconds at 20° C/68° F.
For more contrast - develop the print for 45-60 seconds in undiluted stock solution at 20° C/68° F.
For softer results - dilute the stock solution 1:2 with water, and develop the print for 45-60 seconds at 20° C/68° F.


Makes me wonder if I should expose slightly longer and pull the print at 60 seconds - Step wedge testing might be coming in the near future.

[Drew Wiley]

1:1 is awfully strong. Doing 1:3 will give you better control due to longer time. Premature "pull processing" works poorly with most current silver papers, especially VC. Muddy results. It's not a good way to alter final tone. You also might want to try a cooling water jacket tray around the outside of the developer tray per se. Either a cold water drip line into that, or else a little recirculating aquarium pump and a blue ice pack should allow you to sustain a more realistic temp. Hydroquinone is one of the ingredients of 130, and image color can be affected when it's too far off standard temp one direction or the other. Exactly how depends on the specific paper and how you tone it afterwards. But it is noteworthy.

[Renato Tonelli]

1:1 is awfully strong. Doing 1:3 will give you better control due to longer time. Premature "pull processing" works poorly with most current silver papers, especially VC. Muddy results. It's not a good way to alter final tone. You also might want to try a cooling water jacket tray around the outside of the developer tray per se. Either a cold water drip line into that, or else a little recirculating aquarium pump and a blue ice pack should allow you to sustain a more realistic temp. Hydroquinone is one of the ingredients of 130, and image color can be affected when it's too far off standard temp one direction or the other. Exactly how depends on the specific paper and how you tone it afterwards. But it is noteworthy.

Good tip regarding the dilution. Some papers (I forget which one at the moment) developed very fast at 1:1; something like one minute - way too fast to control.

[esearing]

1:1 is awfully strong. Doing 1:3 will give you better control due to longer time. Premature "pull processing" works poorly with most current silver papers, especially VC. Muddy results. It's not a good way to alter final tone. You also might want to try a cooling water jacket tray around the outside of the developer tray per se. Either a cold water drip line into that, or else a little recirculating aquarium pump and a blue ice pack should allow you to sustain a more realistic temp. Hydroquinone is one of the ingredients of 130, and image color can be affected when it's too far off standard temp one direction or the other. Exactly how depends on the specific paper and how you tone it afterwards. But it is noteworthy.

I only use 1:1 with Bergger VC Glossy paper because it has a cooler tone than Ilford. With Ilford MGFB I use it 1:2 (2mins) or 1:4 (5mins) for a slightly warmer flatter tone. I polled some people I consider to be very good printers and the consensus was to leave it in for full development. All suggest their normal is longer than 2 minutes regardless of developer used. One also mentioned another technique used in the past where minimal exposure is given and the print left to sit in developer overnight. Not sure what that would do on a modern paper.

I have not really noticed much of a difference in tone due to heat or cold.

[Drew Wiley]

Just try cooling the image tone of the Bergger Neutral Tone with something like GP-1 gold toner afterwards. Or another tweak you could try is substituting benzotriazole for KBr as the restrainer in 130, but at 1/10th the gram wt quantity. Actually, I use an equivalent of GP-1 at about an eighth of the recommended dilution. Seems like every forumla wants to waste gold chloride, when it's entirely unnecessary. The paper will only hold so much. How long a VC paper needs to be developed depends not only on the temperature, but on how much the high contrast layer has been exposed in the first place, or a sufficient combination of both layers. There are no hard rules, and never will be. "Full development" all depends not only on the specific paper and development concentration, but the specific image as well. I develop anywhere from 1-1/2 minutes to 5 in 130, though 2 to 3 min would be the most common. Get that whole suite of variables pinned down and predictable, and then you'll begin to notice that significant temp variables DO themselves have an effect on final color. But all of this is in relation to the freshness of the glycin itself - one more variable that can be fine-tuned into the total outcome.