A few advise before I dive !

[danielha]

Hi folks,

I'm on my way to dive into 4x5 photography. I'll buy an Intrepid camera as it is light weight and inexpensive. So I won't hesitate to carry it in a back pack and go shooting outside (landscape / cityscape). I plan to first buy a wide angle lens and found a 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon mounted on a Compur 1 electronic shutter. The lens seems clean (no scratch, no fungus, no fog). It is a version from 1970 (looked into the schneider serial numbers database) so it should be a single coated version of the lens if I'm not mistaken. The shutter also seems in good shape. The seller is an online shop from which I've already bought once. They seem to be trust worthy. They offer a 6 monthes warranty on the lens / shutter. The price is surprisingly not too high compared to japan prices on ebay.

I know the shutter needs a battery which is not easily found. I also know this battery can easily be replaced by other newer batteries. So it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

My concern is that I won't receive the Intrepid before 6 / 8 weeks. So if I buy the lens now I won't be able to quickly test it.

What else should I check before I buy the lens ?

215975
215976

Many thanks for your help,
Daniel

[Tin Can]

I suggest you buy a standard spring Copal, all black from a known seller

[danielha]

Thanks for the suggestion Tin Can ! I haven't planned a budget for a second shutter, but I will consider this option with care :-)

Daniel

[lenicolas]

90mm are not rare lenses. And since you’re buying online anyway, Why not find one in a copal shutter like Tin Can suggested?

[Corran]

What Tin Can and others said. And not a second shutter, a different lens properly in a normal (clockwork) shutter.

90mm lenses are so common they can be hard to even sell here, where most already have equipment! You should be able to find a nice f/8 lens (smaller and lighter) for $200-400 depending on brand and condition. If you get one in an older silver-ring Copal 0 shutter, it can be just as good, but some of these seem to be needing service if they haven't been cared for over their years. I have bought several 90mm lenses in these older shutters for $100-150, but YMMV.

[danielha]

Lenicolas,

I may have misunderstood Tin Can. I thought he was saying to buy a copal shutter without a lens in order to have a spare. I understand that Copal shutters have a better reputation than other brands. So buying one lens mounted on copal would be a better choice.

The price is 280 € including VAT from a local online shop. So no need to deal with added taxes (20% VAT + ~5% import taxes) when buying from Japan, UK or the USA (I'm in France). The lens is clean, the dealer did test the shutter and provides new batteries. There is a 6 monthes warranty. 90mm f5.6 Super Angulons often go in the 400$ - 500$ range on ebay. I think it is a fair deal. The drawback being the weight as the Super Angulon is heavier than a Fujinon 90mm.

Am I missing something ?

Daniel

[danielha]

Corran,

you are right, I can easily find nice 90mm lenses on ebay in the 200-400$ range. However, as they mostly are from Japan, I will have import taxes and VAT applied. I understand that importing in the USA is cheaper as VAT and import taxes are only applied over a specific amount (I thing I have read 400 $). Corret me if I'm wrong.

Daniel

[Corran]

Wasn't sure of your location as you did not specify.

Most here do not use electronic shutters. Some do, and they seem to be fine with them, but personally I like my clockwork shutters and wouldn't want an electronic one unless it was an absolute necessity for a given lens. I understand import taxes and such can be burdensome, but I personally would pass on that one. It's still an older lens, and for that money even with VAT you'd likely be able to get a newer Super Angulon f8 in the black Copal as mentioned earlier. And since you don't have your camera yet, there's no rush, right?

Also realize the aperture "stick" and battery container are not common for most users and may have some issue with the Intrepid's front standard or rise knobs. I can't say for sure, but I thought I'd mention that.

[Benjamin]

Lenicolas,

I may have misunderstood Tin Can. I thought he was saying to buy a copal shutter without a lens in order to have a spare. I understand that Copal shutters have a better reputation than other brands. So buying one lens mounted on copal would be a better choice.

The price is 280 € including VAT from a local online shop. So no need to deal with added taxes (20% VAT + ~5% import taxes) when buying from Japan, UK or the USA (I'm in France). The lens is clean, the dealer did test the shutter and provides new batteries. There is a 6 monthes warranty. 90mm f5.6 Super Angulons often go in the 400$ - 500$ range on ebay. I think it is a fair deal. The drawback being the weight as the Super Angulon is heavier than a Fujinon 90mm.

Am I missing something ?

Daniel

I know nothing about the advantages or disadvantages of battery operated shutters, but having dealt recently with insane import taxes after buying products from both Japan and the US, I totally understand your logic. You seem to have done your homework thoroughly. I'd go for it. The 6 months warranty protects you somewhat, and you can still resell the lens later if you end up not liking it.

Too bad you don't already have the camera, as sometimes local sellers will allow a one or two-week tryout on used lenses (in the sense of you buy it but can bring it back after a week if you have time to develop your film and realize there is a problem with the lens).

[Alan Klein]

Hi folks,

I'm on my way to dive into 4x5 photography. I'll buy an Intrepid camera as it is light weight and inexpensive. So I won't hesitate to carry it in a back pack and go shooting outside (landscape / cityscape). I plan to first buy a wide angle lens and found a 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon mounted on a Compur 1 electronic shutter. The lens seems clean (no scratch, no fungus, no fog). It is a version from 1970 (looked into the schneider serial numbers database) so it should be a single coated version of the lens if I'm not mistaken. The shutter also seems in good shape. The seller is an online shop from which I've already bought once. They seem to be trust worthy. They offer a 6 monthes warranty on the lens / shutter. The price is surprisingly not too high compared to japan prices on ebay.

I know the shutter needs a battery which is not easily found. I also know this battery can easily be replaced by other newer batteries. So it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

My concern is that I won't receive the Intrepid before 6 / 8 weeks. So if I buy the lens now I won't be able to quickly test it.

What else should I check before I buy the lens ?

215975
215976

Many thanks for your help,
Daniel
How does the seller know the shutter is in good shape if he doesn't have a battery to test it?

[danielha]

Benjamin,

I try to do my homework before asking out :-) Yes the tax thing can be scary (after all, I'm in France :-) ) And yes, I think the lens is worth the price asked by the dealer.

However, Corran and Lenicolas have an interesting alternative point of view. I would sum things up this way :

- One older, heavier, nice lens (in good condition) with a shutter not as reknown as copals, at a fair price, from a local store I already used once (to buy 4x5 chassis for my pinhole camera). The lens is already picked up by the seller but I do not have an alternative. I have a long warranty on the lens, but I need to decide quickly.
- One younger, lighter, nice lens (in probably good condition too) with a most reknown shutter with a final price probably not that different if choosen wisely from an internet store (but with added complexity). I have tons of lenses to choose from. I can find as much good ones as there are bad ones. And I don't know the seller yet. I have shorter warranties but I have time to choose.

This is a tough decision :-)

Thank you all for your time and expérience !

Daniel

[danielha]

Alan,

I had a phone call with the seller. He did test the shutter and provides a new battery with it. This only is a spoken word, but the question was asked and answered :-)

Daniel

[Chuck Pere]

One question would be why would someone want to use an electronic shutter instead of a standard spring shutter? Must be some advantage to it.

[LabRat]

What I think everyone here is trying to explain here is the electronic shutters were uncommon, and IF this shutter has any issues now or in the future, there is almost no one that can service this for you, so you will be stuck alone with it...
And no service parts are available for them...

Another issue is that with a odd battery type, some do not respond well in cold or damp conditions, and you might not use the lens for awhile, and when needed might not be ready to shoot normally... And batteries can leak over time requiring service...

Normal serviced spring shutters can work for decades well, but a battery shutter is taking a chance... If it came with a camera, or cost little or nothing, or was on a special lens or size ok, but for a common lens at retail price, don't buy it...

Electronic shutters seemed like a good idea at the time, but didn't catch on...

Steve K

[Bernice Loui]

Planning on a lightweight field folder then marry that with a whopper lens?

Not good for a long list of reasons.

While electronic shutters can be accurate, consistent and more. They are more problems than solutions and they add bulk for your needs.

Given the Intrepid will have limited camera movements using a 90mm lens, lightweight and not the most stable-rigid-precise view camera, the larger image circle and size-bulk of any f5.6 or f4.5, 90mm wide angle lens would not be a good choice. Adding to the disadvantages would be the electronic shutter.

IMO, better to get a 90mm f8 in a proven reliable/accurate Copal or similar fully mechanical shutter. This would fit your image making need and lightweight field folder camera better than any f5.6 or f4.5, 90mm wide angle lens.

Any 90mm f8 wide angle from Schneider, Rodenstock (90mm f6.8 grandagon), Fujinon, Nikkor in a modern copal shutter would be ideal. Optical performance wise, they are all equal enough to be regarded as much similar than different. Don't rush into a lens purchase as there should be plenty of these on the market, don't spend too much on a 90mm f8 as there are plenty of them on the market, right of return should be part of the pre-purchase deal. If the lens is a dud optically or mechanically, is needs to be returned to the seller for a refund.


Bernice



Hi folks,

I'm on my way to dive into 4x5 photography. I'll buy an Intrepid camera as it is light weight and inexpensive. So I won't hesitate to carry it in a back pack and go shooting outside (landscape / cityscape). I plan to first buy a wide angle lens and found a 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon mounted on a Compur 1 electronic shutter.

What else should I check before I buy the lens ?


Many thanks for your help,
Daniel

[danielha]

LabRat,

It doesn't take too much brain cells to understand that "electronic" shutters are uncommon :-) This was the first one I saw after spending countless hours trying to figure out if I should dive into LF photography or not. So I know there are some risks choosing this lens for this reason. Risk is inevitable buying lenses and shutters decades old. It is "a little" bigger when the part is uncommon. I do agree with you.

The question of the battery doesn't seem to be a big concern after carefull thinking. The original battery can be replaced with a more recent one which is easily available and probably more stable over time than the original ones. And if I remember correctly the specs I've read last week (the shutter works from 3V to 6V), a USB battery delivers enough volts to make the shutter work ! I'm used to carry 3 batteries for my Olympus E-M1, a USB battery and a charger for the Olympus (a french saying : "Belt, strap and an umbrella") ! Nothing new there.

I understand your caution words ! I do.

Many thanks for your input !

Daniel

[Benjamin]

Daniel, seems to me you're getting more than one red flag, and from quite a few experts.

After reading them, I would amend my earlier statement to say that you might have a lot of problems reselling it if you realize it doesn't suit your needs.

As I said, I understand the tax element. But I do think it's preferable to pay a little more to get what's good for you than take a chance with something that will cost less but that you'll be desperate to get rid of in a couple of months. The warranty is probably for broken parts, not for "I don't like it after all".

My feeling is that lens won't sell any time soon. I'd take that chance. Once you get your camera, if you still want it, ask for a money-back tryout, if possible.

If you can't get that, or if the lens is sold, you'll have no problem finding a good 90mm lens with a standard shutter.

[danielha]

Benjamin,

You're right about the number of red flags ! And you're right about the warranty. It's for broken parts, not for a change of heart !

It did seem to be a good opportunity :-) It might not be...

Thank you all for your kind advise.

Daniel

[Michael77]

We have taxes in France but it's not...uncommon
It's not a red flag. From Japan you add 20% for VAT + import fees (via the carrier) 25-30€ : you are in known field, not an issue

nobody but you can chose between an electronic ou classic shuttter but the former is rare, unkown from most, the latter reliable in the end

you had good experts opinion here : you can always ask french large format photographers on http://www.galerie-photo.info/ if you want more points of view

[Bernice Loui]

Schneider serial# 11580010 dates this 90mm f5.6 Super Angulon to about 1970, making this lens and shutter about 50 years old. To believe or think an electronic shutter of that age will function perfectly is extremely unrealistic.
https://ground-glass.net/schneider-lenses-age/

Much the same applies to a mechanical shutter.


Be aware the battery is a PX21, which is not so common.
Read this page on Compur shutters before acting on any lens in Compur shutter:
https://skgrimes.com/products/shutters/compur-shutters/

"The latest version of the Synchro Compur began production in the early 1970’s and is still in limited production. It has a new design torsion type mainspring and was originally available in sizes #00, #0, #1 and #3. Here, I show the #1 in the largely unsuccessful battery timed “electronic” version. Most of the electronic versions don’t work. Battery vendors for the PX 21 can be found via a Google search."


Bernice

[sharktooth]

The 90mm f5.6 is both huge and heavy, as Bernice has already mentioned, and goes against your original intent of having a lightweight system. For a beginner, it's probably better to start out with something in the range of 135 to 150mm, since those are the standard focal lengths for 4x5. This will give you options for light weight, small size, and relatively low cost.

We all suffer the effects of having eyes bigger than our stomachs when starting something new.

[Corran]

Regarding the above, many suggest the 135/150 focal length for a 1st lens. If you have your eyes set on the 90mm after considering how you shoot on other formats, stick with it. 90mm is my most used focal length. However the 150mm lens I bought along with a 90mm f/8 as two my first lenses for LF is also still with me, so keep your eyes open either way ;).

Never too many lenses after all... :cool:

[Tin Can]

Tiniest 90mm with good shutter

Raptor 90 mm Wide Angle f6.8 (https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?104244-Wollensak-Raptar-90mm-f-6-8-surprising-coverage!&p=1036124&viewfull=1#post1036124) Great lens

on my lightweight Travelwide

Point and shoot handheld with very lightweight flash bulbs if needed

[danielha]

Corran,

I do shoot at 12 to 17mm on an Olympus E-M1, so basically a 24 to 34 mm equivalent on a full frame camera. 90mm on a 4x5 film will be good for me. I'll look for a 105 - 120mm as a second lens but that's a story to be writen later :-)

Tin Can, Thanks for the tip about the Raptar

Daniel

[Jody_S]

I will second the recommendation for the 90/8 Super Angulon. In my somewhat limited experience it's a better lens than the cheaper 90/5.6 lenses you might find, and much more friendly to lightweight cameras and backpacking.

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

I had a phone call with the seller. He did test the shutter and provides a new battery with it. This only is a spoken word, but the question was asked and answered :-)

Daniel

Why don't you ask him for the part number of the battery he has so you can check beforehand if there are replacements available? Often, old models are replaced with new models with new model numbers. You can check with the battery companies on their website to see what replacements are available.

[Alan Klein]

The 82mm filter thread requirement makes filters more expensive. If you add a center filter eventually, you'll need way over 100mm. Another reason to pick a smaller f8 90mm lens.

[danielha]

Alan,

The question about battery is not important. Original batteries for the Compur electronic are PX21 (4.5V) and can be found on amazon or specialised web sites if you dig a little. They are easily replaced with PX28 (6V wich is OK in the compur shutter specs) which are easily available. Would there be any problems with PX28, I could still use either AA / AAA batteries or 3LR12 batteries or even any low end USB battery to produce 4.5V !

However, the question of the filter thread is a different subject ! It is indeed one more point towards newer f8 models !

Thanks for your help,

Daniel

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

The question about battery is not important. Original batteries for the Compur electronic are PX21 (4.5V) and can be found on amazon or specialised web sites if you dig a little. They are easily replaced with PX28 (6V wich is OK in the compur shutter specs) which are easily available. Would there be any problems with PX28, I could still use either AA / AAA batteries or 3LR12 batteries or even any low end USB battery to produce 4.5V !

However, the question of the filter thread is a different subject ! It is indeed one more point towards newer f8 models !

Thanks for your help,

Daniel

Being able to use the same filter set on all your lenses is important when shopping for lenses. I have a 90mm f.4,5 Nikor with a center filter that requires a 105mm filter. I currently have 77mm filters that fit on all my other lenses (3) with step-up adapters. I still haven't bought any filters for my 90mm because of its large size. I just haven't convinced myself it's worth the money to spend on a second filter set. Frankly, if I was to do it over again, I would not have gotten this particular 90mm lens. When I need to use a filter, I;ll use my 75mm lens which accepts the 77mm filters I have. This limits the purpose of even having the 90mm lens.

[otto.f]

You can easily get this lens in MC version with modern smooth copal in Germany or Austria for 500€ with right of returning in 30 days. Imagine you should return to Japan, pfff. Stay in Europe, is easy. MC gives often much cleaner images.

[seall]

A past discussion (APUG) which may be of interest to you:

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/does-anybody-have-a-schematics-for-compur-electronic-shutters.28920/

[Bernice Loui]

That would be a big NO on multi-coating often gives clearer images. Single coated LF optics are extremely often more than good enough.
Where multi-coating makes the greatest different would be in modern complex zoom lenses with a big pile of optical elements. This does not apply to LF view camera optics due to the often limited number of optical elements in a given lens. Modern wide angle lenses for LF tend to be the most complex of the optics commonly used for LF, yet they still do not have that many air to glass surfaces within the optical lens system.

What will make a real difference, Really GOOD and properly set up lens shade to stop stray light from hitting the lens and cropping off the excessive image circle inside the camera bellows to stop stray light from bouncing off the bellows on to the film.

MC = Marketing Come-On..


Bernice




MC gives often much cleaner images.

[danielha]

Seall,

This discussion is scary ! However, it would be as scary for me if it was about a non electronic shutter :-) Anyway, I get the point !

Otto, 500€ is too high a price for me ! 250 - 300 € is my goal. The remaining 200 € will probably serve for a new tripod or a stearman-press tank or a second lens or ... (the list is endless :-) )! I'll dig ebay and see what I can find knowing I must be carefull with the added taxes if buying outside EU.

Bernice, can I read your last message as "choose the shutter (mecanical one obviously) over the lens" ?

Once again, many thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge.

Daniel

[Corran]

Since I shoot into the sun often, MC lenses have proven their worth many times.

[Bernice Loui]

The shutter is often the source of view camera lens difficulties and problems due to the fact, it's mechanical and subject to all the things that can and does go wrong with mechanical items. Starting out with view camera is difficult as is, if the shutter or lens imposes grief, it makes the learning process that much more difficult due to the problems imposed by a problem shutter or lens. Or why a known good problem free view camera lens at the beginning of the view camera journey is SO important.

Lens cells are usually good long as some owner-user has not taken the lens cells apart then "tinkered" with them or damaged the lens cells in some way. Know there are some view camera lenses with lens cell spacers that are specifically calibrated and made for a specific lens cell set. It is not unusual for these spacers to become lost of forgotten over the passage of the lens lifetime. Missing spacers often results in odd optical performance of the lens with missing spacers.


Bernice




Bernice, can I read your last message as "choose the shutter (mecanical one obviously) over the lens" ?


Daniel

[otto.f]

That would be a big NO on multi-coating often gives clearer images. Single coated LF optics are extremely often more than good enough.
Where multi-coating makes the greatest different would be in modern complex zoom lenses with a big pile of optical elements. This does not apply to LF view camera optics due to the often limited number of optical elements in a given lens. Modern wide angle lenses for LF tend to be the most complex of the optics commonly used for LF, yet they still do not have that many air to glass surfaces within the optical lens system.

What will make a real difference, Really GOOD and properly set up lens shade to stop stray light from hitting the lens and cropping off the excessive image circle inside the camera bellows to stop stray light from bouncing off the bellows on to the film.

MC = Marketing Come-On..


Bernice

:D thanks

[otto.f]

Seall,

This discussion is scary ! However, it would be as scary for me if it was about a non electronic shutter :-) Anyway, I get the point !

Otto, 500€ is too high a price for me ! 250 - 300 € is my goal. The remaining 200 € will probably serve for a new tripod or a stearman-press tank or a second lens or ... (the list is endless :-) )! I'll dig ebay and see what I can find knowing I must be carefull with the added taxes if buying outside EU.

Bernice, can I read your last message as "choose the shutter (mecanical one obviously) over the lens" ?

Once again, many thanks to all of you for sharing your knowledge.

Daniel

I will pray for you that you will reach this goal with an import from Japan. At least I had a heartattack when I received a Nikkor 300mm from Tokyo, about 125€ on top of the selling price. Check it in advance at least, what you wrote about this before does not convince me given this experience.