Best dual axis bubble spirit?

[Christianganko]

Hello all!

Just getting into using my field camera. I use a ball head on my tripod. Just preference.

But i have been finding i need a spirit level.

I purchased one but its really difficult to fit on the hot shoe of the camera, I have a technika.

Would anyone have any experience with a good dual axis level?

Thank you

[David Lindquist]

I've used this with my Technika: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/287111-USA/Linhof_002599_Double_Spirit_Level.html

It's Linhof's part number 002599.

This Manfrotto branded item bears a striking resemblance and costs rather less: https://www.adorama.com/bg337.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwqIiFBhAHEiwANg9szsQECu-16CKC1ShGqP5jNldrF0To3MjAybAoT3YAqXG71tywG1w32RoC-g0QAvD_BwE&gclid=CjwKCAjwqIiFBhAHEiwANg9szsQECu-16CKC1ShGqP5jNldrF0To3MjAybAoT3YAqXG71tywG1w32RoC-g0QAvD_BwE&utm_source=adl-gbase-p

David

[Ari]

This one is even less expensive and is likely the same as the Linhof and Manfrotto: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1265741-REG/flm_12_02_901_type_2d_bubble_level.html/overview

[Drew Bedo]

The horizon is pretty reliable. I use it often when outside.

I have often seen bulls-eye levels and other configurations of bubble level in counter displays at my ACE hardware store . . . often for a buck or two.

When doing studio work; portraits, table tops etc, I have used an app on my iPhone that seems to work very well for me. Don't know what its called, so check the apps store.

[Alan Klein]

I use this one. It's a three-axis so you don;t need two mounts.
If for some reason it's too wide to fit the flange, you can always file it down a little.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/780406-REG/Vello_BL_HS3_Three_Axis_Hot_Shoe_Bubble_Level.html

[Christianganko]

Thank you all.

Ooof the linhof and manfrotto ones are crazy Guaranteed they are from the same factory somewhere in Asia.

Wil give them a look and see what I come across. Wil post results.

Thank you!

[Christianganko]

I use this one. It's a three-axis so you don;t need two mounts.
If for some reason it's too wide to fit the flange, you can always file it down a little.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/780406-REG/Vello_BL_HS3_Three_Axis_Hot_Shoe_Bubble_Level.htmlThis is the one I have. But it doesn't fit my linhof.

It seems the rails on the bubble are too thick.

[Christopher Barrett]

The broader the base of a spirit level, the greater the accuracy. I don't place much stock in shoe mounted levels. In 25+ years of shooting architecture for a living, I've always relied on a "torpedo" level... placed along the groundglass for plumb and on the top of the format frame for level.

My two cents.

[Paul Ron]

Those B&H prices are totally nuts for made in china garbage.

Take your pick of these on amazon.... and send me the difference?

https://www.amazon.com/camera-level/s?k=camera+level

.

[Ari]

The OP asked for dual spirit level, but these are mostly decorative.
They're ok if you need to get in the ballpark in a hurry.
For more precise work, you'll need a torpedo level, as Christopher suggests.
I use a card level made by Ebisu. They're about $30 shipped on eBay, but they're worth the extra $$.

This one:
215987

[Drew Wiley]

All those camera shop branded ones are utter toys. So is all that Amazon crap. But admittedly, most folks aren't wiling to pay for anything of serious machinist quality, but that's the kind of source where you'd look. A decent torpedo level has a strong casting and a machined prime edge. Stabila is a good brand at reasonable price, well below machinist pricing. Stanley and other home center brands usually aren't reliable enough for the scarecrow of the Wizard of Oz. I've seen em all sectioned in half in order to sort marketing BS from fact. Quite a bit goes into a good level, even a tiny one. Or for an assortment of basic options, go to the appropriate page of the McMaster online catalog. If you need cheap, a gravity pendulum angle finder will be way more accurate than any inexpensive level. I always kept one of those in my architectural shooting kit.

Any serious small twin-vial level like the Starrett cross-test bubble level is designed to be so precise that you'd go nuts trying to level it on any camera or tripod surface anyway. A simple single-tube Starrett pocket level is more realistic, and won't cost you a hundred bucks. If you want a little acrylic cube level, I again recommend Stabila, but won't go into the "why" of it here. Let's just say that for every level you've ever seen, I've probably sold a thousand professional ones, and know the fine details of manufacturing which make a real difference.

But unless your purpose is for sake of stitching exposures, any architectural nitpickiness falls apart due to the fact that film seldom sits precisely square in the holder itself, and buildings are seldom truly level and plumb. True squaring should be done during the printing step. The newest, tallest, and most expensive highrise building in SF is fully 18 inches out of plumb top to bottom, and the error can be seen with the naked eye, especially in relation to adjacent tall buildings. No camera level can cure that; even the engineers are having a hard time figuring out how to correct it. But lawyers are sure having a happy field day over it.

[BrianShaw]

Double-check affordable bubbles. I recently replaced the bubble level on my tripod. Although I bought it from an “authorized parts vendor” it appears to be a cheaply-made Chinese product. Looks right; fits right. But is 2 degrees off from center.

[esearing]

for horizontal flat surfaces a turntable bubble level is fairly accurate. Usually less than $30 . you can get some larger center bubble spirit levels with degree markings.

[Peter De Smidt]

Unless you can adjust them all to a single reference, camera bubble levels rarely agree.

[Tin Can]

How accurately can you level your camera? 2008

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?39987-How-accurately-can-you-level-your-camera/page2

[Alan Klein]

The broader the base of a spirit level, the greater the accuracy. I don't place much stock in shoe mounted levels. In 25+ years of shooting architecture for a living, I've always relied on a "torpedo" level... placed along the groundglass for plumb and on the top of the format frame for level.

My two cents.

With my 4x5, I just lay it flat along the top of the standards to check the levels. I don;t bother inserting it in any of the "shoes". Frankly, my eye works best for the most part.

[ernie57]

Only Linhof could ask $90.00 for a $9.00 made-in-China level and get people to buy it. Gotta love them.

[Bernice Loui]

To "needle" Drew, checkout this EDA precision level with a spec of 0.0001" per 10". It is used to set up machine tools.
216006

Examples of good levels can be found here at the Geiger & Bluhm web page:
https://www.geier-bluhm.com

Level# 3-0507, 7mm dia X 16mm long works for replacement levels for Sinar.
216007

Circular levels often work better than two axis levels for setting up the camera for apron level. That said, better to use the GG grid lines to "square up" the image to be made as leveling alone is often a coarse set up only approximation due to the reality most buildings and such are seldom absolute level to the ground. This along with a long list of other factors renders levels on cameras with moderate usefulness.

What is a good thing to do, level the tripod or similar camera support or the image will shift in odd ways if the camera is panned to adjust the GG image.



Bernice

[Drew Wiley]

That looks like a wonderful source, Bernice! I got hooked on Starrett selling it to machinists and mechanics starting when I was only 22 years old, back when all their business transactions were still hand written with paper and ink. I worked alongside an older fellow who had previously been a NASA optical machinist for satellite programs, who really knew his stuff. But I acquired my own levels much later when selling Starrett simply as a minor accessory line to cabinetmakers. If you want a square to check if other squares are really square on not (they seldom are), that's what you use. I've been using my Starrett squares and center punches this whole past two weeks on a project. And during that same era we were by far the largest Stabila dealer in the country, and I got free samples from them, and even better free samples from manufacturers now long gone. Mepro was another well-machined level brand, made in Israel. Most people nowadays don't even understand what a machined level is; everything is squirrely anodized extrusions with uneven paint layers.

One old trick I'd use in buildings was to bring along a marble or ball bearing and see which way it would roll on a smooth floor. All a level does on a camera standard - if even that is precisely set - is tell you just how rare truly square and plumb rooms and buildings are. That's what sneaky back swings and tilts are for! Now for picture hanging purposes, I have an adjustable story pole attached to a portable handtruck with a laser platform on it, for my self-leveling crosshair laser - again, a serious domestic brand and not a Chinese knockoff. But if a prominent linear moulding or ceiling line or window line is adjacent, and not itself level, then I have to offset the pictures themselves to match that, or they'll get blamed for not being level. For serious stuff I use linear cleats, not nails and picture wire.

[Bernice Loui]

G&B is a good source for levels and such. There is SO much of these levels made in Asia today, it would not be surprising to discover they all are made in the same factory in Asia some where.

Starrett has been one of the industry standard measuring instrument suppliers for decades. Mostly good precision and really well made stuff that is reliable and last. They make a GOOD automatic or spring powered center punch that just ~works~ and works and works.

More of a Etalon (internal bore gauges), Mahr (specialty), Mitutoyo(most all are good and good values), Compact(dial indicators), Kafer(dial indicators) or EU centric measuring instrument fan.

:)
Bernice


That looks like a wonderful source, Bernice! I got hooked on Starrett selling it to machinists and mechanics starting when I was only 22 years old, back when all their business transactions were still hand written with paper and ink. I worked alongside an older fellow who had previously been a NASA optical machinist for satellite programs, who really knew his stuff. But I acquired my own levels much later when selling Starrett simply as a minor accessory line to cabinetmakers. If you want a square to check if other squares are really square on not (they seldom are), that's what you use. I've been using my Starrett squares and center punches this whole past two weeks on a project. And during that same era we were by far the largest Stabila dealer in the country, and I got free samples from them, and even better free samples from manufacturers now long gone. Mepro was another well-machined level brand.

[Michael R]

I have a Starrett straight edge inherited from a machinist. It’s terrific. The grinding patterns are like art.

Rather than having precision bubble levels on my camera, which I think are basically useless, I’d much prefer some kind of miniature laser depth gauges on the rear standard facing the front standard so that I could quickly make the standards perfectly square/parallel (“zeroed”).


That looks like a wonderful source, Bernice! I got hooked on Starrett selling it to machinists and mechanics starting when I was only 22 years old, back when all their business transactions were still hand written with paper and ink. I worked alongside an older fellow who had previously been a NASA optical machinist for satellite programs, who really knew his stuff. But I acquired my own levels much later when selling Starrett simply as a minor accessory line to cabinetmakers. If you want a square to check if other squares are really square on not (they seldom are), that's what you use. I've been using my Starrett squares and center punches this whole past two weeks on a project. And during that same era we were by far the largest Stabila dealer in the country, and I got free samples from them, and even better free samples from manufacturers now long gone. Mepro was another well-machined level brand.

[Peter De Smidt]

Sinar bubble levels are adjustable. If you take the time to calibrate them, then can help speed up setup...but they are still small levels. In some ways, the old pendulum-style indicators used on old cameras would more reliable and easier to use, as even older eyes can read them quite easily.

[Drew Wiley]

I have a collection somewhere of Starrett catalogs going clear back to 1905. Their actual dealer price lists clearly indicated which items are still US made in the MA plant, and which are imports. For instance, their dial and vernier calipers are still US made, but their popular electronic calipers are Chinese (not outsourced junk by any means - it's a dedicated manufacturing line - but not really equal to US product). So yeah, my own electronic caliper is Mitutoyo, made in Japan; and its distinctly better than the Starrett version (more expensive too). There's nothing worse than an imprecise "precision tool". Even my ordinary carpenters squares and try squares were checked using a Starrett machinist square first; sometimes I'd have to sort through a pile or twenty or more squares to find an actually square one! Others I'd true myself. Same goes for grunt levels.

[Alan Klein]

I shoot mainly landscapes, not buildings. Just how important is leveling LF with landscapes?

[Drew Wiley]

Landscapes? - been doin' them for the past fifty years. Never once have I used the built-in levels on any of my Sinar cameras. I completely ignore them. What is important is to keep horizontal is the visual level of an ocean horizon or big lake; but one doesn't need a vial level to do that, or even grid lines on the groundglass. It's intuitive enough. A related issue is vertical pine trees. Very few of them are truly vertical, so all I aim for is a visual approximation of their verticality that will look natural on the print, which might or might not equate to actual plumb. It's all about esthetic decisions. I don't want to turn nature into a Lego toy project where everything fits in a predictable manner.

[Michael R]

You’re fine using your eyes. Even for architecture/urban/interior stuff I usually shoot, I haven found spirit levels very useful.


I shoot mainly landscapes, not buildings. Just how important is leveling LF with landscapes?

[Michael R]

Reminds me of Bob Ross haha. He would always remind the viewer when he was putting in things like water lines to make sure they are basically level and straight or else the water will run off the side of the canvas and get your floor all wet. :)


Landscapes? - been doin' them for the past fifty years. Never once have I used the built-in levels on any of my Sinar cameras. I completely ignore them. What is important is to keep horizontal is the visual level of an ocean horizon or big lake; but one doesn't need a vial level to do that, or even grid lines on the groundglass. It's intuitive enough. A related issue is vertical pine trees. Very few of them are truly vertical, so all I aim for is a visual approximation of their verticality that will look natural on the print, which might or might not equate to actual plumb. It's all about esthetic decisions. I don't want to turn nature into a Lego toy project where everything fits in a predictable manner.

[Drew Wiley]

Good thing real trees never look like Bob Ross trees. You need lots of vaseline over your lens to attain that effect. Or maybe that is the way they actually look like viewing them from underwater, looking up.

[Bernice Loui]

Never looked at the camera level(s) for this one. Only grid lines on the GG, adjust camera as needed.

216020


IMO, camera levels have limited utility.
Bernice






You’re fine using your eyes. Even for architecture/urban/interior stuff I usually shoot, I haven found spirit levels very useful.

[Peter De Smidt]

Does anything have unlimited utility?

[LabRat]

IMO, the uber-precise machine set-up levels are way overkill for general photo applications, as they are so sensitive that with a camera on a tilt head, a bare tweak to the tilt will send bubble hard to the other side, so not really practical in the field... It is useful to calibrate other levels and I use to level benches, enlarger tables, machinery, set-ups etc... But VERY hard to use casually... I use them as reference standard...

For camera alignment during overhauls, I have found machinist's adjustable tri-squares to be invaluable to align standards, re-zero settings and locks, is the bed or rail really straight etc... You can usually find a flat to rest the base on while the rule goes up to check if a standard is tilted a little while set at zero etc... Rules for my Mitutoyo are up to 24", and make fine straight edges too... Great for fixing enlargers, easels, camera backs etc... And very useful in the print mounting/matting department... And for wood/metalworking is very valuable!!!

As a former architectural photographer, just used to use a decent torpedo level... Worked fine and better than camera levels...

Got rid of gridded GG's... Too distracting, as I now allow image to "float" on GG and establish new relationships with the borders and negative space...

Note that front to back leveling only works on one level plane, forcing front rise/fall, possibly creating an unnatural look sometimes... To create relationships with other verticals, I often tilt camera up and down quickly until verticals harmonize, then use front rise to frame edges... And have found different horizontal levels when shooting upwards of buildings etc to create dynamics (that look natural)... And sometimes use tilt movements to add a little distortion, but that's just me... ;-)

Grids and levels can be just relative...

Steve K

[Drew Wiley]

No view camera ever made has standards that are exactly calibrated and squared and level anyway, in the sense a machinist would think about his surface blocks or other references. We're not into photogrammetry or aerial mapping and so forth. Leave that kind of gear for government budgets. The adjustable calibrations on my humble Norma are plenty adequate for my own needs; and that camera gets a lot of compliments from bystanders too.

[Michael R]

A way to quickly square the standards without clunky detents etc. would definitely be useful for me. I don’t want any tilt or swing when I don’t want it. All it would need are four little laser depth gauges.

I’d have thought you of all people would have rigged something like this up long ago.


No view camera ever made has standards that are exactly calibrated and squared and level anyway, in the sense a machinist would think about his surface blocks or other references. We're not into photogrammetry or aerial mapping and so forth. Leave that kind of gear for government budgets. The adjustable calibrations on my humble Norma are plenty adequate for my own needs; and that camera gets a lot of compliments from bystanders too.

[Christopher Barrett]

I've long been curious about this little tool...

http://walkercameras.com/a_aligner.html

[Gord Robinson]

I downloaded a couple of bubble level apps for my phone and they seem to be accurate

[Michael R]

I had a Titan SF and the lens aligner. It’s a clever accessory but I found it somewhat fiddly and not very convenient. Just my opinion though - which should probably be taken with a grain of salt as I’ve always had an unhealthy concern/obsession with this particular aspect of variable geometry cameras in general. :eek:


I've long been curious about this little tool...

http://walkercameras.com/a_aligner.html

[Doremus Scudder]

Late to the party here...

I have installed/attached small bull's-eye bubble levels to all of my cameras. I set up the camera for a shot of a scene with vertical lines that are guaranteed plumb, e.g., a modern building, etc. and then align the verticals carefully with the grid on the ground glass (after making sure the camera back fits well, etc.).

I then lock everything down and install/attach the bull's-eye level so that it is centered. This sometimes involves shimming a bit on one or two sides. You don't need an expensive bubble level as long as you know that the centered position is correct; I don't need to know how far off I am from level, only when things are in the right position.

After that, I use the bubble level to set up the camera, fairly confident that it will get me close. For fine adjustments for architectural work, however, the grid on the ground glass is what I adjust to.

Best,

Doremus

[Lachlan 717]

Only Linhof could ask $90.00 for a $9.00 made-in-China level and get people to buy it. Gotta love them.

Nah; Leica could as well…

[Drew Wiley]

Are you claiming someone's pricing isn't on the level?

[Ulophot]

Drew, you rascal!

[grat]

Are you claiming someone's pricing isn't on the level?

Just wait for the bubble to burst.

[Drew Bedo]

I can't believe that this thread has gone over 4 pages.

Just how big a deal can it be? Get a level. Us it as best you can till you find another that you like better . . .and use that one. As the labeled instructions read, "Lather, Rinse, Repeat"!

I once got a father's day gift that was a tpe measure with both a bubble level and a calculator built in. . . .and it was a cheap item too (father's day right?). Turned out to be really handy for LF. Used it till the calculator bit the dust. Now I use the horizon when out doors and an app on my cell phone when doing critical work inside. To nail down bellows correction a bit of cloth seamstress measuring tape takes up no space and weighs a few grams.

While my Kodak 2D and the Zone VI have been referred to as "furniture grade" by a bystander, as tools they are not what LF photography is about. The prints are.

[Drew Bedo]

OK . . .now we are all square, plumb and level.

Has anyone tested their shutters lately? Just how close o the marked speed sre your shutters?

I am using my fingers to figure this out now, but . . . .
1/500 should be 2 milli seconds right?
And 1/250 should be 4 milli seconds . . .
Setting 1/125 ought to be 8 milli sec.

Just how close are we on these slpit seconds?

[Doremus Scudder]

OK . . .now we are all square, plumb and level.

Has anyone tested their shutters lately? Just how close o the marked speed sre your shutters? ...

I test my shutters regularly (at f/22, which is close to my normal shooting aperture), average the results and note that average to the nearest 1/3 stop. The times get printed on a label, which gets stuck on the appropriate lensboard. I'm fairly sure that I'm within 1/3-stop or so when I set my shutter speed. That's close enough for black-and-white negative material (I might be more of a stickler if shooting transparency materials).

There is lots of imprecision and inaccuracy in all the aspects of metering and making a photograph. Fortunately, the window of acceptable exposure is wide enough that we can build in safety factors (usually simply by erring on the side of overexposure a bit) that compensate for the worst-case scenario of all variables being at their worst.

Still, I like to be as precise and accurate as possible, with the realization that there is always a rather significant margin of error.

Best,

Doremus

[grat]

All of my shutters (with one exception awaiting a CLA) are within 1/3 of a stop. So I just don't care. :)

[William Whitaker]

If your camera isn't level, you need a bigger ground glass!

[Alan Klein]

If your camera isn't level, you need a bigger ground glass!

Pls explain.

[Rick Rycroft]

Just how big a deal can it be?

What, leveling a camera? Well I like to have my images level when I want that. I've tried several of the accessory add-on levels and they all don't agree with each other so some or all of them must not have their mounts square.

[Drew Wiley]

Groundglass screens even with grid lines seldom rest in their frame exactly square, film in the holder is not necessarily perfectly centered and level, let alone truly flat, and most cameras standards themselves are not machined to high tolerances of level and plumb. Then you've got the probability of less than ideal levels. The mere glue thickness or tape on the back on one might mess up even a good one. Go figure. What counts if the shot does need to look level and square involves the internal proportions relative to one another. You basically have to level the image planes when printing anyway, that is, if it's the kind of subject requiring that.

[John Earley]

Although I only occasionally use a level I do have an electronic one like this when the need arises.
https://www.amazon.com/Klein-Tools-935DAG-Electronic-Measures/dp/B07ZWW3BW5/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=electronic+leveler&qid=1622842799&sr=8-9

It's surely not as accurate as my Starrett 8" machinist level but it is better than the tiny vials that came with my cameras. Since I carry my gear in a jogging cart the extra weight isn't a concern.

[Drew Wiley]

I trust domestic Klein pliers, but anything cheap and electronic like that they unquestionably outsource. A real Starrett level or the equivalent should be in every shop, if for no other reason than to verify the accuracy of your lesser levels before trusting them; similarly with squares. But I still assert that when it comes to cheap, a basic pendulum angle finder beats most levels any day of the week;
and it doesn't need a battery. As far as programmable levels that beep at you when level, I personally reviewed prototypes of the very first ones on the market several decades ago, so can't be accused of being unfamiliar with the principle. Do I own one of those myself? - heck no! One more decade and leveling lasers did the same thing much better. But then in turn, lots of those got outsourced and junkified too.

[Bob Salomon]

I trust domestic Klein pliers, but anything cheap and electronic like that they unquestionably outsource. A real Starrett level or the equivalent should be in every shop, if for no other reason than to verify the accuracy of your lesser levels before trusting them; similarly with squares. But I still assert that when it comes to cheap, a basic pendulum angle finder beats most levels any day of the week;
and it doesn't need a battery. As far as programmable levels that beep at you when level, I personally reviewed prototypes of the very first ones on the market several decades ago, so can't be accused of being unfamiliar with the principle. Do I own one of those myself? - heck no! One more decade and leveling lasers did the same thing much better. But then in turn, lots of those got outsourced and junkified too.

Was was on a factory trip to our suppliers in Germany after I got my first iPhone. In the Kaiser factory I happened to be standing next to one of their granite work tables in their prototype shop so I used it to check the level function in the iPhone. Surprisingly it was dead accurate!

[Drew Wiley]

Working for a Starrett dealer nearly fifty years ago, we were given a demonstration of an electronic meter that measured in millionths. They took a pink granite machinist's surface reference block (their own, the best and most stable you could buy), and even the temperature change of you breathing on it would create a dimension change registered by that meter. Before the time I retired at another Starrett account, that kind device had evolved into something that would draw a contour map of your surface in millionths. But that was certainly not something that could be lugged around as a salesman's sample; it also cost over a million dollars.

[Drew Wiley]

Bingo! Just an hour after chatting about this, an Amazon ad for a small digital angle finder pops up in my e-mail. Ain't it nice to have internet privacy? (speaking facetiously).

[grat]

I've switched to a browser called 'brave', which is based on Google Chrome, but minus all the Google bits. It also places an emphasis on privacy, so I haven't had that happen to me in awhile. You probably don't care about "brave rewards".

[Tin Can]

Yep, iPhone is a very good level

and meter

I never call anyone

damn good camera too

I use the latest SE2, new $200

and always in my cig pocket

I don’t smoke


Was was on a factory trip to our suppliers in Germany after I got my first iPhone. In the Kaiser factory I happened to be standing next to one of their granite work tables in their prototype shop so I used it to check the level function in the iPhone. Surprisingly it was dead accurate!

[Drew Bedo]

I had heard that using a smart phone was not a reliable light meter.

What model phone and which app?

[John Earley]

I trust domestic Klein pliers, but anything cheap and electronic like that they unquestionably outsource. A real Starrett level or the equivalent should be in every shop, if for no other reason than to verify the accuracy of your lesser levels before trusting them; similarly with squares. But I still assert that when it comes to cheap, a basic pendulum angle finder beats most levels any day of the week;
and it doesn't need a battery. As far as programmable levels that beep at you when level, I personally reviewed prototypes of the very first ones on the market several decades ago, so can't be accused of being unfamiliar with the principle. Do I own one of those myself? - heck no! One more decade and leveling lasers did the same thing much better. But then in turn, lots of those got outsourced and junkified too.

If a level isn't regularly tested and certified as accurate to a standard how would you know they are better than some of the "lesser levels".

[Bill Poole]

"My Lightmeter Pro" ap for iPhone is my go-to lightmeter, Drew. Works for me as average, spot, and incident. I checked it with other meters for a while. and almost it always agreed. I only do that now in very iffy situations.

[Drew Wiley]

John - the real deal levels are certified, with the certification note right in the box, just like lots of the US made Starrett precision equipment. Each piece is tested against a factory standard. They make more than precision equipment, so that's not the case with one of their own label common carpenter's square or holesaw or hacksaw blades etc. But it is routine with the pricey items. Some kinds of levels are re-adjustable, but others fixed, and basically unalterable unless the machined housing itself corrodes to the degree that it is not longer perfectly flat. That can happen. For instance, I once sold a person a custom especially long precision Starrett straightedge, accurate along the whole length to about .0002 inch. He waited six months for delivery, but didn't pay attention to the instructions, and then just stuffed it unboxed in a closet in this salt air climate. He didn't realize that the kind of steel involved requires routine oiling to prevent rust. When he took it out a few months later, that $800 straightedge was no more accurate than a $10 one because the edge was pitted. But for a nominal fee, he sent it back and they re-machined the critical edge, and had to wait a few months more in order to have it on hand.

That was back when I was selling mainly to machinists and mechanics. Much later, at a different business, I was dealing with very high-end ($$$$) cabinet shops and custom furniture makers. The Starrett tools they used comprised many of the same model numbers as back when Starrett first began in the latter part of the 19th C - combination squares, wing dividers, etc. But things were so well machined and standardized all along that someone could come in with a combination square head made in 1905, and I could order a blade made a 110 years later, and it would fit perfectly. Happened rather frequently in fact. The only real difference is that a modern blade has a satin chrome finish, easier to read, plus metric options if one wishes. I keep both metric and inch blades on hand. Another thing one notices is that once you tighten the knob to a Starrett combination square, everything ends up perfectly square every time. That simply doesn't happen with ordinary hardware store combination squares; you have to check each time if the application is critical.

Remember, generations of machinists have relied on the reputation of companies like Starrett and Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo, etc. It isn't like what one encounters in Cheapo Depot where tens of thousands or even millions of a particular tool item gets outsources, shipped, and marketed without even a single one of them ever being tested, not even the prototype. Happens all the time in those kinds of venues. Whole different ballgame. Just like I hinted in the preceding paragraph, the serious level models in question have are time tested for at least a hundred years. If you find a clean one in your grandfather's toolbox, it will probably be just as precise today. Otherwise, there are ways of testing.

The same outfit I last worked for, and served as buyer for in a number of categories, was also by far the largest Stabila level dealer in the country. No, not machinist quality, but certainly a cut above most other options. Even the bubble position black markings were physical and inside the vial, rather than painted or a decal outside it. There was a distinct reason for that, even though it required a certain amount of fussy hand-tuning every instance. Lifetime warranties were involved; but there were always a certain number of dummies who mistook a level for a crowbar, so each complaint had to go through a distinct inspection protocol before replacement. Some of their models were readjustable, others permanently fixed in epoxy and especially stable box extrusions, with one true machined edge. Basically, you get what you pay for. The Chinese can clone the look of darn near anything, but not the quality.

[Michael R]

So basically what you’re saying is you can’t help me out with my laser depth gauge lens board-ground glass alignment idea?


John - the real deal levels are certified, with the certification note right in the box, just like lots of the US made Starrett precision equipment. Each piece is tested against a factory standard. They make more than precision equipment, so that's not the case with one of their own label common carpenter's square or holesaw or hacksaw blades etc. But it is routine with the pricey items. Some kinds of levels are re-adjustable, but others fixed, and basically unalterable unless the machined housing itself corrodes to the degree that it is not longer perfectly flat. That can happen. For instance, I once sold a person a custom especially long precision Starrett straightedge, accurate along the whole length to about .0002 inch. He waited six months for delivery, but didn't pay attention to the instructions, and then just stuffed it unboxed in a closet in this salt air climate. He didn't realize that the kind of steel involved requires routine oiling to prevent rust. When he took it out a few months later, that $800 straightedge was no more accurate than a $10 one because the edge was pitted. But for a nominal fee, he sent it back and they re-machined the critical edge, and had to wait a few months more in order to have it on hand.

That was back when I was selling mainly to machinists and mechanics. Much later, at a different business, I was dealing with very high-end ($$$$) cabinet shops and custom furniture makers. The Starrett tools they used comprised many of the same model numbers as back when Starrett first began in the latter part of the 19th C - combination squares, wing dividers, etc. But things were so well machined and standardized all along that someone could come in with a combination square head made in 1905, and I could order a blade made a 110 years later, and it would fit perfectly. Happened rather frequently in fact. The only real difference is that a modern blade has a satin chrome finish, easier to read, plus metric options if one wishes. I keep both metric and inch blades on hand. Another thing one notices is that once you tighten the knob to a Starrett combination square, everything ends up perfectly square every time. That simply doesn't happen with ordinary hardware store combination squares; you have to check each time if the application is critical.

Remember, generations of machinists have relied on the reputation of companies like Starrett and Brown & Sharpe, Mitutoyo, etc. It isn't like what one encounters in Cheapo Depot where tens of thousands or even millions of a particular tool item gets outsources, shipped, and marketed without even a single one of them ever being tested, not even the prototype. Happens all the time in those kinds of venues. Whole different ballgame. Just like I hinted in the preceding paragraph, the serious level models in question have are time tested for at least a hundred years. If you find a clean one in your grandfather's toolbox, it will probably be just as precise today. Otherwise, there are ways of testing.

The same outfit I last worked for, and served as buyer for in a number of categories, was also by far the largest Stabila level dealer in the country. No, not machinist quality, but certainly a cut above most other options. Even the bubble position black markings were physical and inside the vial, rather than painted or a decal outside it. There was a distinct reason for that, even though it required a certain amount of fussy hand-tuning every instance. Lifetime warranties were involved; but there were always a certain number of dummies who mistook a level for a crowbar, so each complaint had to go through a distinct inspection protocol before replacement. Some of their models were readjustable, others permanently fixed in epoxy and especially stable box extrusions, with one true machined edge. Basically, you get what you pay for. The Chinese can clone the look of darn near anything, but not the quality.

[Tin Can]

I use cheapest iPhone SE2 and always update asap, Bought new for $200, now $250!

https://www.walmart.com/cp/total-wireless/5238125?povid=1072335+%7C+2020-04-10+%7C+Total%20Wireless%20FC

Been using Total prepaid for years, it runs on Verizon, only service that handles my area.

and Walmart is far cheaper than Verizon, for some stupid reason


and I always guess exposure first, then meter! What if it fails!

In studio with strobes, I use my L758 Sekonic (https://www.sekonic.com/discontinued/l-758dr) and second guess never.

Bought new 2008 well before I came to LF sport.

My strobes match exactly to that meter stop by stop
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/pocket-light-meter/id381698089




I had heard that using a smart phone was not a reliable light meter.

What model phone and which app?

[Rod Klukas]

One of the issues is mounting shoe levels. You need to always, after inserting the level, push it to one side and all the way to the front of the shoe. This Squares the level with the camera and makes leveling easier as well.

A small angle fonder used against the ground glass and the lens board, if possible, is also a great way for, fore and aft, checking.

Rod

[Alan Klein]

One of the issues is mounting shoe levels. You need to always, after inserting the level, push it to one side and all the way to the front of the shoe. This Squares the level with the camera and makes leveling easier as well.

A small angle fonder used against the ground glass and the lens board, if possible, is also a great way for, fore and aft, checking.

Rod

Are shoe mounts really parallel to the film and camera? I lay my three-axis level on top of the wooden standards figuring that's closest to the sheet film holder on my 4x5.

[Bernice Loui]

All that only to discover what is being images is not level to the camera location.

Levels are at best rough estimates for camera set up. Use the GG grid for better results.


Bernice



Are shoe mounts really parallel to the film and camera? I lay my three-axis level on top of the wooden standards figuring that's closest to the sheet film holder on my 4x5.

[Drew Wiley]

I use a flash shoe mount for my Nikon and other cameras on the copy stand, which is itself precise and fully adjustable. Once any camera is installed, the bubble level attached to the hot shoe is adjusted to a reference level on the film plane itself. I rarely pull out a Starrett true machinist's level to do that, because it would amount to overkill. But behind every level in my shop there is indeed a better one, and yet a still better one behind that one. I don't take anything for granted, quality-wise.

Michael, I dont know what you're whining about. What specifically more do you need to know? Just like anything else, there are toy lasers and serious ones. Lasers cost everything from ten bucks to ten billion. Somewhere in between, nearer the bottom of that price list, but with at least one more zero behind it, is where you need to look. I'd personally add two more zeros, in other words, a thousand bucks or more; but since I had access to all kinds of them for sake of testing, didn't really need to spend a even a cent. I do have on hand a sample of an exceptionally good fully machined laser torpedo level, but have gotten more use out of it in the long-haul as dot-chasing toy for the cat than in actual shop applications. I can't think of anything equivalent today, of equal quality or precision within a very simple, non-programmable product. Now every compact laser level is plastic with a bunch of buttons on it. But overall, for sake of small surface leveling, I'd far rather have just a well made vial torpedo level with a true machined base than any cheapo version of a self-leveling laser.

What I think you have in mind, however, is more of a relatively precise laser distance measuring device. You'd have to come up with quite a bit of money and precise mounting positions to even begin to replace a common metric tape ruler. The ancient Egyptians and Maya precisely squared up their pyramids with just some string length and shadow tricks. No lasers back then, at least if other than aliens built the pyramids! Equalized lengths of ordinary piano wire has been used in many small scale projects.