Long Process Lenses for Landscape? 24" RDA? APO-Nikkor 610/9?

[CreationBear]

Like several people here on the forum it seems, I've decided to try my hand at contact printing this summer, acquiring an 8x10 back for my Sinar Norma and a couple of nice lenses to cover mild WA and longish-normal applications. I keep thinking about the long end, though (~600mm)--and given my outfit (and budget!) process lenses "in barrel" seem like the best option.

The one question I have is about bokeh--given that I'm yomping through the hills and hollers of the Eastern Woodlands and not fetched up out West shooting planar subjects like, say, the Alabama Hills, I definitely have to give a thought to out-of-focus areas, especially with forest canopy sifting the light.

I'm curious, then, what y'all's experience has been with the 24" Red Dot Artar or Nikkor 610/9 for general landscaping duty (from reading various forum threads, I know that Drew W. posited that the latter might draw with some gnarly double-line bokeh.)

Otherwise, I'd be curious about the other options (say in 450-600 range) that might be out there that would handle these kinds of OOF areas with aplomb.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Sinar Norma sold Apo Ronars in the Norma catalog, I have a fairly complete set and I like them. Thirty years ago I used the 240mm f9 a lot for landscape 4x5 shooting even in mountainous areas. Glenn Evans made the "donut" to forward mount the 600mm F9

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49913138718_a1eb394583_h.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2j3DTcd)Norma Rodenstock Apo-Ronar collection (https://flic.kr/p/2j3DTcd) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I'm dusting these off to use again. My longest is a 760mm F14 that I bought for 200 Bucks. Amazingly it screwed right into a board I already had on hand. Using the Norma is a huge advantage for telephotography.

For examples of Apo Ronar 8x10 images look at Reinhart Wolf's famous books, and also his giant color prints on display in Museums and Galleries.

https://www.google.com/search?q=reinhart+wolf&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Rck44-FUvCYhWM%252CpmxrKZTmns_GbM%252C%252Fm%252F05xw7_t&vet=1&usg=AI4_-kRpoii-T3YSBfBeeq6_pl6ci0KjZg&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjsw5CYvs7wAhWIKM0KHcgdD60Q_B16BAgZEAE#imgrc=Rck44-FUvCYhWM

He was an award winning Art Director and Master Photographer. I particularly like his black and whites taken in rural Georgia USA

I'd say try it and if you don't like it, sell it on

[Vaughn]

Dang -- everything is in focus...sorry...:cool:

I use a 24 RD occasionally on 8x10, but no experience with out of focus area's look.

[CreationBear]

I particularly like his black and whites taken in rural Georgia USA

Excellent, I knew Wolf's famous architecture photos from Europe and NYC, but I'll have to look up his work from the Deep South. Otherwise, an enviable Norma collection--that 760mm must be awesome in Colorado.

Vaughn-- Ha, I definitely envy y'all's wide open spaces and "climax" forests...even in "old growth" I find myself walking on my knuckles a lot here Back East.

[Tracy Storer]

FWIW, the 610 Apo NIkkor (f/9) is huge compared to the 24" RDA (f/11).
If you can find a 600 Apo NIkkor it's a little smaller than the 610.

[Bernice Loui]

There was a time when the used lens market was "flooded" with APO process camera lenses of a large variety of focal lengths. Market prices were low due to the massive supply -vs- market demand. Not any more. The longer focal length 24" - 600mm and longer are in high demand due to the uber large format folks as these have become their lenses of choice.

Out of several 24" f11 APO artars cycled decades ago, this one ended up being the keeper. It's good, very good.
215922

Used as a longer than normal focal length lens on 5x7 and 8x10. IMO, a bit short as a tele for 8x10, focal length of 800mm or longer would produce a stronger tele effect on 8x10. On 5x7, the tele effect is more than often enough, on 4x5 the tele effect is pronounced. Often not discussed, APO artar (Red Dot or non Red Dot) in barrel has very good out of focus rendition. This is partly due to the very round iris in the Goerz barrel. Lots of these have been re-mounted into later Copal# 3 which does not have a round iris impacting the out of focus rendition. Know most do not use an APO artar this way, most stop these lenses down well past f22 rendering the out of focus rendition insignificant.


Bernice

[CreationBear]

FWIW, the 610 Apo NIkkor (f/9) is huge compared to the 24" RDA (f/11).

Thanks! I admit it's a habit of mine to leverage a weak mind and strong back, but I wasn't looking forward to toting 95mm filters if I couldn't find the gel inserts.

Bernice, excellent info on the RDA's--thank you. For the present time (read: until somebody starts paying me cash money) I'm taking ~600mm as my upper limit as to what I can reasonably handle in the field. Otherwise that's excellent news about the Artars rendering--I'm not out to try to shoot an 8x10 like a medium format camera of course, but it sounds like much the more versatile lens for the "intimate" landscapes I find myself exploring.

[Bernice Loui]

The APO ronar 600mm f9 and APO Nikkor f9 are HUGE. What gives the APO artar some added appeal, at f11, it is smaller and a bit easier to manage than a f9 lens at this focal length.

There are two versions of the APO artar, the original Goerz versions have a brass barrel (like the one pictured) these tend to be heavy. Later versions were made with an aluminium barrel. These are lower weight with the same optical performance and nice round iris. IMO, if taking a lens like this outdoors, the lighter weight aluminium barrel version would be preferred, but far more difficult to find these days.

Lesser known are Boyer APO-Saphir, Repro Claron (not sure they made a 600mm), APO skopar, APO-Germinar (Zeiss Jena) and .. these should be considered as longer than normal focal length lenses.


Bernice


Thanks! I admit it's a habit of mine to leverage a weak mind and strong back, but I wasn't looking forward to toting 95mm filters if I couldn't find the gel inserts.

Bernice, excellent info on the RDA's--thank you. For the present time (read: until somebody starts paying me cash money) I'm taking ~600mm as my upper limit as to what I can reasonably handle in the field. Otherwise that's excellent news about the Artars rendering--I'm not out to try to shoot an 8x10 like a medium format camera of course, but it sounds like much the more versatile lens for the "intimate" landscapes I find myself exploring.

[Vaughn]

...Vaughn-- Ha, I definitely envy y'all's wide open spaces and "climax" forests...even in "old growth" I find myself walking on my knuckles a lot here Back East.
I have used the 24" RD with 8x10 and 7x17 in the redwoods...not often. Even the 19" RD does not see a lot of action, but both more under the redwoods than out under the open skies. Mostly due to the lack of a shutter (another reason why rarely have out of focus areas -- I have to close down enough to get at least a one second exposure. I have done 1/2 second and even 1/4 second (accurately is a different story), but I prefer to work around 2 to 4 seconds if possible. The heck with f64 -- let's do f90!

[Tracy Storer]

A photo for reference, the late, aluminum barrel 24" RDA on top of the Apo NIkkor 610.


FWIW, the 610 Apo NIkkor (f/9) is huge compared to the 24" RDA (f/11).
If you can find a 600 Apo NIkkor it's a little smaller than the 610.

[CreationBear]

A photo for reference, the late, aluminum barrel 24" RDA on top of the Apo NIkkor 610.

Ha, that is a bulky lens, but one thing that led me (halfway) down the path was that the 610/9 still isn't quite as heavy as the Nikon 600mm tele.

Vaughn--your times are interesting: with FP4+ I'm almost always having to deal with reciprocity and exposures between 30 seconds and three minutes. (Your canopy might be high, but I guess mine is thick.)

Otherwise, thanks for all the replies. One more question, what would be the process for fitting an RDA into a Sinar board assuming I don't have an universal iris clamp? I'm thinking SK Grimes might be the place to start, but any tips appreciated.

[Dan Fromm]

CB, out of curiosity I did a search for RD Artars' weights, found this: https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/archive/index.php/t-82143.html. It gives a weight of 41 oz for the 24 incher. Could be for a lens in a brass barrel.

My Nikon catalogs say that the 600/9 (tessar type) and 610/9 (dialyte type) Apo-Nkkors weigh, respectively, 775 and 1,450 g. FWIW, my 610/9 A-N is in an aluminum barrel and weighs 1,377 g.

[Vaughn]

Those times were for out in the sun and trying to use a shutter-less lens.-- in the redwoods it is several minutes plus.

[CreationBear]

Could be for a lens in a brass barrel.


Thanks for the info--I think you're right about yours being a brass construction, though in the cosmic scheme of things folks use those plasmats-as-big-as-your-head in-shutter and seem no worse for wear.:) Otherwise, that's an interesting data point about the relative sizes of the APO-Nikkors, though I've not seen a 600mm listed.

[Maris Rusis]

https://live.staticflickr.com/3857/14654726504_8a192e1f70_b.jpg
Snow Gum Dance, Charlotte Pass
Gelatin -silver photograph on Ultrafine Silver Eagle VC FB photographic paper, image size 24.6cm X 19.5cm, from a 8x10 Fomapan 100 negative
exposed in a Tachihara 810HD triple extension field view camera fitted with an Apo-Nikkor 610mm f9 lens working at f128.

Why f128? So I could give a 2 second exposure via lens cap. Can't do faster with any accuracy.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, the Nikkor is certainly handling the busy background at that aperture at least.:)

[Tin Can]

I use Nikkor 610 f9 APO aluminum

Very sharp light and useful on 11X14

in studio

or porch with wheelbarrow

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/3857/14654726504_8a192e1f70_b.jpg
Snow Gum Dance, Charlotte Pass
Gelatin -silver photograph on Ultrafine Silver Eagle VC FB photographic paper, image size 24.6cm X 19.5cm, from a 8x10 Fomapan 100 negative
exposed in a Tachihara 810HD triple extension field view camera fitted with an Apo-Nikkor 610mm f9 lens working at f128.

Why f128? So I could give a 2 second exposure via lens cap. Can't do faster with any accuracy.

Oooo. Like It!

[tgtaylor]

242554

This platinum-toned kallitype print was shot with the 610 apo-Nikkor at f/32, 1/8 second. I focused on the eyes/nose.

[arri]

The APO ronar 600mm f9 and APO Nikkor f9 are HUGE. What gives the APO artar some added appeal, at f11, it is smaller and a bit easier to manage than a f9 lens at this focal length.

There are two versions of the APO artar, the original Goerz versions have a brass barrel (like the one pictured) these tend to be heavy. Later versions were made with an aluminium barrel. These are lower weight with the same optical performance and nice round iris. IMO, if taking a lens like this outdoors, the lighter weight aluminium barrel version would be preferred, but far more difficult to find these days.

Lesser known are Boyer APO-Saphir, Repro Claron (not sure they made a 600mm), APO skopar, APO-Germinar (Zeiss Jena) and .. these should be considered as longer than normal focal length lenses.


Bernice

Schneider made a 610mm f/9 Repro Claron and it fits directly into a Compound V and Compur FS 5 shutter. I know it because I just offer one of this here.
Whats about the Apo Tessar lenses? I have a 300mm one in use for 4x5" and I´am very pleased with it. Lenses are available with uncoated and coated lenses. The earliest versions are made ~1910 and the latest in the 1960th I think.

[fj55mike]

While slightly shorter than 600mm, the 21 1/4" (540mm) Kodak Copying Ektanon is exquisitely sharp and can be had for peanuts. 15-blade aperture for silky smooth bokeh as well.

[Drew Wiley]

The modern 4-element dialyte design like an Apo Nikkor is likely to give better overall performance than a tessar formula. Being symmetrical, it's superbly corrected all the way from 1:1 clear to infinity.

[CreationBear]

Ha, the Ektanon is precisely the lens I ended up with….I actually sent it to SK Grimes to get it mounted and threaded for modern 77mm filters and still came in for much less than what a 600mm RDA would have cost. (I did manage to pick up a 16.5” RDA in an aluminum frame along the way—since I shoot FP4 mostly under canopy I haven’t missed having a shutter at all.)

[CreationBear]

BTW, Drew, am I remembering correctly that you use a 300ish Zeiss tessar when oof areas are important to you? I wanted to pick up a Fuji 420mm at some point for the same reason, though after falling down the alt print rabbit hole, it’s not quite the pressing matter any more.;)

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53074966301_97c5203690_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2oS45nT)30 inch and 40 inch Rodenstock Apo Ronars (https://flic.kr/p/2oS45nT) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

I like olde Apo Ronars, I have a set from 150mm F9 (A Gem! have three of them!) to the 1000mm F16 acquired recently from UK. 600 British Pounds, more than I have ever spent on a Dialyte, most likely from an olde Process Camera. Most Apo Ronars are not too expensive in barrel. I have a Zeiss 59cm Apo Planar that is pretty cool (and heavy!) I have used it for B&W 8x10 head shots, I once showed it to Ron Wisner, he said it's "worth every penny". He likes to talk about the mathematics of the lens design :) Drinking Beer and eating Gourmet Pizza in the basement of MPEX. And getting FIRST LOOK at the once-in-a-lifetime "Great B&J Warehouse Buyout".

[CreationBear]

Excellent, those are some impressive lenses, Daniel—for myself, I’ve decided that an extra 18” rail is about all I am willing/able to handle under field conditions….definitely could see how the wide open landscapes out West could call for a big hammer, though. :)

[Drew Wiley]

Hi, Creation Bear. Yes, I have a single coated 360/f9 Zeiss-made tessar which has lovely out of focus rendering, along with good 8X10 coverage, but still no shutter for it (it would easily fit in a Copal 3s), so I only intermittently use it via the lenscap method of long exposures. My most versatile lens of that focal length still remains the 360/10 Fuji A, so that's what I routinely carry for 8x10 applications, sometimes 4X5 too.

[CreationBear]

Excellent, thanks Drew—I will admit that I’m a bit of a lens snob when it comes to my MF kit, but still more “bang for your buck” when it comes to LF lenses. Definitely good to know options, though, should my aspirations/skills get to the point where I tackle those California School fine art silver gelatin prints. :)