View Full Version : new (and first) 4x5 camera
Ok, i'm looking to buy my first 4x5 camera. The budget is quite low (otherwise i'd buy a chamonix, god they're beautiful) and i'm in Europe, the used market here is quite scarce and prices are waaay superior than in USA, UK, Japan.
I will mostly do landscape photographs with some (very few) portraits, surely i won't do any table-top or studio work.
I will put it in a backpack, not for multi-days treks but i don't want to bring along a big, heavy, bulky monorail.
Now to the point of this post: on the new cameras i've looked for an intrepid or a stenopeika hyper-etc. On the used market i found a toyo 45cf that will cost some euros more than the stenopeika, it looks quite ok.
What would you choose? A, B, C, none?
I found a lot of informations about these cameras, and they are all described as great, poor, adequate [for a moderate use], flimsy, fragile, sturdy [all things considered], i think for every aspect there are both positive and negative comments on everyone of them. I cannot say i've got my mind clear... :confused:
PatrickMarq
12-May-2021, 06:21
Remember the UK left the EU so when buying an Intrepid you have to include taxes etc.
I have an Intrepid and Chamonix and indeed the Chamonix is beautiful and great.
Tin Can
12-May-2021, 06:26
Toyo
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/257305-REG/Toyo_View_180_106_4x5_45CF_Field_Camera.html
Of the three, the Toyo is the steadiest of the bunch, with the Chamonix a close second.
Toyos are overbuilt, solid and the weight is quite manageable.
And tons of cheap accessories are regularly available on eBay and elsewhere.
It's clear from the first post that Chamonix is out of the question.
Remember the UK left the EU so when buying an Intrepid you have to include taxes etc.
I have an Intrepid and Chamonix and indeed the Chamonix is beautiful and great.
Yes, with taxes and whatnot it will cost about 400€, 200€ less than the stenopeika.
Of the three, the Toyo is the steadiest of the bunch, with the Chamonix a close second.
Toyos are overbuilt, solid and the weight is quite manageable.
And tons of cheap accessories are regularly available on eBay and elsewhere.
I'm talking about the Toyo 45CF, that is the one Tin Can linked: it weighs slightly more than an intrepid, i cannot say it's overbuilt, but it probably will do the job.
There's nothing wrong with the Intrepid-- but it does have some niggles that will make it more difficult for a novice LF photographer. There are no detents or markings for getting the film plane and front standard parallel. The front standard can swing when you don't intend it to. The back can be a little fiddly.
Do not know the Stenopeika well. I know the one you're looking at is mostly 3D printed, which isn't a complaint. In the same price range (more or less) is the Chroma Carbon Adventurer-- a friend of mine received one, and it's a nice camera.
The Toyo is always a good option (assuming it's in good condition).
I'm talking about the Toyo 45CF, that is the one Tin Can linked: it weighs slightly more than an intrepid, i cannot say it's overbuilt, but it probably will do the job.
Yes, I was talking of that camera and of all Toyo cameras in general.
They're solid and overbuilt, very tough cameras, giving you a steady platform to work from.
All-metal, it won't flex or warp or be sensitive to the elements.
Keep in mind, this being your first camera, no matter what you end up getting, you'll likely sell it for another camera that will be better-suited to your working methods.
There's nothing wrong with the Intrepid-- but it does have some niggles that will make it more difficult for a novice LF photographer. There are no detents or markings for getting the film plane and front standard parallel. The front standard can swing when you don't intend it to. The back can be a little fiddly.
Do not know the Stenopeika well. I know the one you're looking at is mostly 3D printed, which isn't a complaint. In the same price range (more or less) is the Chroma Carbon Adventurer-- a friend of mine received one, and it's a nice camera.
The Toyo is always a good option (assuming it's in good condition).
I think Stenopeika is all made of wood and metal, it's not 3d printed at all (well, maybe some knobs, i don't know).
I looked at chroma, but the carbon adventurer costs about 600£ (700€) + let's say 30% VAT&duties = 900€, it's quite higher than the other contestants here.
Oren Grad
12-May-2021, 07:46
Yes, I was talking of that camera and of all Toyo cameras in general.
They're solid and overbuilt, very tough cameras, giving you a steady platform to work from.
All-metal, it won't flex or warp or be sensitive to the elements.
The 45CF is not metal - the body is made of polycarbonate/glass fiber composite. There were numerous reports early on of quality control issues with the 45CF - don't know whether they ever got that under control before the camera was discontinued. It did not have a long sales life as view cameras go. I would not buy one without either being able to inspect the particular sample before committing or else having a reasonable return period.
The 45CF is not metal - the body is made of polycarbonate/glass fiber composite. There were numerous reports early on of quality control issues with the 45CF - don't know whether they ever got that under control before the camera was discontinued. It did not have a long sales life as view cameras go. I would not buy one without either being able to inspect the particular sample before committing or else having a reasonable return period.
My mistake, I had it confused with another variation of the Toyo 45a type cameras, the 45ar. Thanks for pointing that out, Oren.
OP, based on Oren wrote here, it doesn't sound like the CF would be a reliable option unless you got lucky with a solid camera.
If pursuing this style of camera, look at Toyo A, AII or similar, IOW, all-metal. Or you could also consider a Wista folder, very tough as well.
My mistake, I had it confused with another variation of the Toyo 45a type cameras, the 45ar. Thanks for pointing that out, Oren.
OP, based on Oren wrote here, it doesn't sound like the CF would be a reliable option unless you got lucky with a solid camera.
If pursuing this style of camera, look at Toyo A, AII or similar, IOW, all-metal. Or you could also consider a Wista folder, very tough as well.
yep, that was exactly my problem with it.
But i'm limiting the search to lighter cameras, an all-metal folder will weight twice those (based on some reading here and there).
Chris Mast
12-May-2021, 08:04
I have been shooting 4x5 since I was a teenager. So 44 years. I am also a college professor who teaches photography. So this advice is not given lightly. You can carry just about any 4x5 camera made in a backpack short distances. I shoot most of my work in a large city and simply put my camera and tripod on a folding 2 wheeler. Over the years I have collected many 4x5 cameras and have found that all of them have very specific strengths and weaknesses.
If you want to get your feet wet a used press camera is the way to go. An old Crown or Speed graphic or MPP is a good start. Also, don't discount a rail camera at this point. Many Toyo rail cameras have been produced for student use. These are full system cameras and are very light. They are easy to take apart and pack well. They are mostly plastic and aluminum and the models with the tapered bellows are especially compact to travel with.
Using a view camera is like playing a musical instrument you must practice with it. The only way to know if a camera is right for you is to use it. I have used all of the major brands of 4x5 cameras and have found the most expensive ones to be a little better than the cheapest. I currently use a Crown Graphic, several Super Cambos, Calumet CC Wide, and a Sinar F2. I gave up on the Toyo field cameras years ago because they are slow to set up and are heavy.
I think Stenopeika is all made of wood and metal, it's not 3d printed at all (well, maybe some knobs, i don't know).
I looked at chroma, but the carbon adventurer costs about 600£ (700€) + let's say 30% VAT&duties = 900€, it's quite higher than the other contestants here.
Eep! That's a bonkers VAT. At that point, the Chamonix 45N-1 makes a bit more sense. :)
You're right on the Stenopeika-- I was confusing it with the low end Gibellini, which has had some QC issues from posts by others.
There are a number of Toyo 45A or 45 A ll available for reasonable prices in Japan.... even factoring in VAT....they are a good sturdy camera and preferable to the carbon fiber CF in my opinion. With the VAT & shipping charges I'd be inclined to just stretch once...& not bother with old press cameras or starter cameras like the Intrepid. You can buy a Toyo from Japan for $350-500 USD... and it's a reliable camera that you'll get years out of.
Eep! That's a bonkers VAT. At that point, the Chamonix 45N-1 makes a bit more sense. :)
That’s 22% VAT and something for custom duties. I don’t know the exact amount, but 30% is in the ballpark.
That’s also the problem with Japanese or American stuff: prices are usually great, but with this added amount they need to be REALLY REALLY great.
You can carry just about any 4x5 camera made in a backpack short distances. I shoot most of my work in a large city and simply put my camera and tripod on a folding 2 wheeler.
Unfortunately a 2 wheeler or a cart of some sorts isn’t that great in woodlands or in the alps, otherwise I’d have already found lots of monorails, they are quite cheap.
If you want to get your feet wet a used press camera is the way to go. An old Crown or Speed graphic or MPP is a good start. Also, don't discount a rail camera at this point. Many Toyo rail cameras have been produced for student use. These are full system cameras and are very light. They are easy to take apart and pack well. They are mostly plastic and aluminum and the models with the tapered bellows are especially compact to travel
There are not lots of metal folding cameras in the used market here, and you can find really expensive and beautiful mint linhof or similar, or some graflex that probably was passed over by a tank but at the price of those new cameras I listed.
I was looking at some monorails, but it seems that even the lightest ones are over 4kg.
Alan Gales
12-May-2021, 09:36
Toyo 45CF cameras are few and far between. Lately, I've seen prices higher than the Toyo 45A and 45All. The 45A and 45All are more capable but weigh more.
If considering the metal Toyo 45A or 45All, I'd also look at metal Wista VX or SP cameras.
It's hard to beat the price of an Intrepid. Just understand that it is an entry level camera. You will probably sell it later and buy something else. Of course that could be said about anything. If you buy used and later sell you will recoup most of your money back if you buy right. I'd try to find a used Intrepid over a new one.
Of course there are used Chamonix cameras out there. Just be patient.
Bernice Loui
12-May-2021, 09:59
Go back to what your image goals are, then what lenses are needed to achieve these image goals, where these images and how these images are made then camera.
Too many decide on a camera first only to discover their first view camera cannot function with the lenses they need to used to achieve their image goals.
Bernice
Toyo 45CF cameras are few and far between. Lately, I've seen prices higher than the Toyo 45A and 45All. The 45A and 45All are more capable but weigh more.
If considering the metal Toyo 45A or 45All, I'd also look at metal Wista VX or SP cameras.
It's hard to beat the price of an Intrepid. Just understand that it is an entry level camera. You will probably sell it later and buy something else. Of course that could be said about anything. If you buy used and later sell you will recoup most of your money back if you buy right. I'd try to find a used Intrepid over a new one.
Of course there are used Chamonix cameras out there. Just be patient.
yes, i'm also searching the used market, but frankly i don't think i've ever saw an intrepid or a chamonix. Never lose hope, though!!
Go back to what your image goals are, then what lenses are needed to achieve these image goals, where these images and how these images are made then camera.
Too many decide on a camera first only to discover their first view camera cannot function with the lenses they need to used to achieve their image goals.
Bernice
well, my first post comes after that thinking:
- landscapes, woodlands, some other things
- not creepy wide lenses, my hasselblad's 50 is the least used one
- not super tele
- preferably portable, "backpack-able", even in some steep hikes and with some non photo gear with me
- budget
the cameras i listed are all pretty light, the price is reasonable (for me, obv), they support probably wider lenses i'd like to use, they have similar movements that (i think, here i need the experts e.g. this forum) are suitable for my needs. Stenopeika does not have front shift but has back swing, toyo does not have any back movement (apart those derived from the drop bed), i think they are quite similar, all things considered.
That's that.
Bernice Loui
12-May-2021, 20:05
IMO, purchase a GOOD used flat bed folder like a Toyo 45 or similar metal folder. Wood can be ok with proper construction, wood choices and such. None of this will be low cost.
Camera needs to have no less than 300mm of bellows and camera draw. Do take the time to read this LF info page on Lenses, Cameras and more.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/
IMO, stay away from newly offered budget field fiolders and such as they come across as flimsy, not a great value (new, is less important as long term serviceability/reliability and all that) and not nearly as well designed-made as cameras offered by long established view camera makers that have been at this for decades.
As for press cameras, they have a place, but they have specific limitations and advantages. Know 4x5 press cameras were originally designed to be used hand held with a medium wide lens and flash bulb gun to achieve "enough in focus at f16" using the lens focused distance scale and stops or rangefinder. When these press cameras are pressed into more serious view camera work that involves significant camera movements, really wide angle or telephoto lenses and such, the tend to hit their limits rapidly.
Bernice
yes, i'm also searching the used market, but frankly i don't think i've ever saw an intrepid or a chamonix. Never lose hope, though!!
well, my first post comes after that thinking:
- landscapes, woodlands, some other things
- not creepy wide lenses, my hasselblad's 50 is the least used one
- not super tele
- preferably portable, "backpack-able", even in some steep hikes and with some non photo gear with me
- budget
the cameras i listed are all pretty light, the price is reasonable (for me, obv), they support probably wider lenses i'd like to use, they have similar movements that (i think, here i need the experts e.g. this forum) are suitable for my needs. Stenopeika does not have front shift but has back swing, toyo does not have any back movement (apart those derived from the drop bed), i think they are quite similar, all things considered.
That's that.
Pamsails
13-May-2021, 09:28
One option for carrying gear around is a jogging baby stroler. It is easy to push,even on trails. it can hold a lot of gear and has rain covers.
John Kasaian
13-May-2021, 10:08
Is Argentum still building cameras?
One option for carrying gear around is a jogging baby stroler. It is easy to push,even on trails. it can hold a lot of gear and has rain covers.
yeah, i think it's easy when the trail is like a land rover trail (and a flat one), but i don't think it would work quite smooth on a trail like this: http://ridingthebuses.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/The-trail.jpg (first picture of a trail i've come across)
Is Argentum still building cameras?
their price list is quite similar to the chamonix one, i think
Heroique
13-May-2021, 10:46
One option for carrying gear around is a jogging baby stroller. It is easy to push, even on trails. It can hold a lot of gear and has rain covers.
If I passed curious hikers, I'd be tempted to ask if they'd like to see my one-eyed baby under the rain covers. ;^)
B.S.Kumar
13-May-2021, 16:58
1. The Toyo 45CF is discontinued, and parts are not available. If something breaks, there is no way to repair it.
2. The Japan-EU FTA mandates no customs duty on Japanese goods imported from Japan. Only the importing country's VAT and courier handling charges (if applicable) are charged.
Kumar
Steve Goldstein
13-May-2021, 17:56
The Intrepid has a lot going for it as a first camera. It's inexpensive, decently made, and as you're in Europe support isn't that far away. If you buy a new one you'll get the latest version with all the design improvements that have been made since the initial introduction, and at a price that's very competitive with much of the used gear on the market. If you ultimately decide that LF just isn't your bag you'll be able to sell it on without much trouble.
Every 4x5 camera has its own features and design compromises; whether they're good or bad is a highly individual matter. Some people like traditional wooden folders, some are happy with a camera like the Intrepid or Chamonix where the front standard detaches. And there are press cameras, and monorails, but maybe those aren't the best choices for what you say you want to do. Some people want or need lots of movements for their work, some are willing to trade off some of those capabilities for less weight. The only way to know what you want is to dive in and find out for yourself. It wouldn't be surprising if your first 4x5 isn't your last if you decide you really like working with LF - as you gain experience you'll learn what you like and don't like and that knowledge will guide your journey. It's different from working with MF.
Remember that LF is more than just the camera - you'll need lenses, lensboards, film holders, a loupe, a dark cloth, a tripod, and cable releases (you probably already have a light meter). Other bits will creep into your kit over time as you develop your personal working methods.
Get a camera, one lens, and the absolute necessities, and give it a go. Practice setting it up, taking it down, and working with it in your home before you take it out into the world. Read. Ask questions. Work deliberately and thoughtfully. You'll make mistakes and ruin film, we all did (and do). Keep notes and learn from your errors as well as from your successes. You may decide that LF just isn't for you so it's better to figure that out with a minimal kit before you're into it for a small fortune.
PatrickMarq
14-May-2021, 02:04
1. The Toyo 45CF is discontinued, and parts are not available. If something breaks, there is no way to repair it.
2. The Japan-EU FTA mandates no customs duty on Japanese goods imported from Japan. Only the importing country's VAT and courier handling charges (if applicable) are charged.
Kumar
Kumar,
I beg to differ.
As I have bought several items from you and also a Chamonix, I can confirm that there is customs to pay for everything that’s not coming from inside the EU here in Belgium.
Patrick
lassethomas
14-May-2021, 02:30
Kumar,
I beg to differ.
As I have bought several items from you and also a Chamonix, I can confirm that there is customs to pay for everything that’s not coming from inside the EU here in Belgium.
Patrick
And the same goes for Sweden
B.S.Kumar
14-May-2021, 02:57
Kumar,
I beg to differ.
As I have bought several items from you and also a Chamonix, I can confirm that there is customs to pay for everything that’s not coming from inside the EU here in Belgium.
Patrick
And the same goes for Sweden
The EU and Japan's Economic Partnership Agreement came into force on 1 February 2019. The EPA provides for a gradual reduction of duties starting from that date, with each year beginning on 1 April. If I am reading this document https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/august/tradoc_157229.pdf correctly, the base rate was 6.7% prior to the EPA coming into force. Until 31 March, 2019, it was 5.0%, 3.4% until 2020, 1.7% until 31 March, 2021 and 0% this year. If my reading is a year off, it is 1.7% this year. Please see page 95 of the document for photo equipment.
Kumar
PatrickMarq
14-May-2021, 08:43
The EU and Japan's Economic Partnership Agreement came into force on 1 February 2019. The EPA provides for a gradual reduction of duties starting from that date, with each year beginning on 1 April. If I am reading this document https://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/docs/2018/august/tradoc_157229.pdf correctly, the base rate was 6.7% prior to the EPA coming into force. Until 31 March, 2019, it was 5.0%, 3.4% until 2020, 1.7% until 31 March, 2021 and 0% this year. If my reading is a year off, it is 1.7% this year. Please see page 95 of the document for photo equipment.
Kumar
Hi Kumar,
Here is an example of a shipment from Japan.
Price of the item: 750€
Shipment cost: 50€
Now:
Import taxes 135,2 €
VAT: 203,11
And Customs paperwork 32
Total 370,31
215846
I don’t know why but this I must pay :-)
LocalHero1953
14-May-2021, 12:21
It's just bizarre - my experience in the UK (yes, I know, not EU......): I have bought three used lenses from Japan in the last couple of months. One incurred customs and VAT. The other two sailed through with no additions.
It's a lottery.
B.S.Kumar
14-May-2021, 23:24
Hi Kumar,
Here is an example of a shipment from Japan.
Price of the item: 750€
Shipment cost: 50€
Now:
Import taxes 135,2 €
VAT: 203,11
And Customs paperwork 32
Total 370,31
I don’t know why but this I must pay :-)
Patrick, the duty works out to 18.03%, much higher than the base rate of 6.7% shown in the pdf. Perhaps you should ask your customs office about it, and let us know so that we are better informed.
Kumar
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