Are Andrew Ross engraving calligraphic styles inconsistent?

[mhayashi]

I recently bought Andrew Ross Portrait No.4 380mm f3.3.
I enjoy learning and looking up the histories of this lens.

The serial numer 2641 indicates circa 1855, thanks to Roseman.
The front and rear element diameters are 115mm. The lens covers 8x10 and even more.

I looked up vade mecum and A.Ross lens samples on internet. Ross engraving calligraphies seem to be inconsistent unlike Dallmeyer.... Each engraving samples of A.Ross have slightly different calligraphic styles. Also sometimes there is a dot after A, some don’t. there is a comma after Ross, some don’t. Maybe each craftsman of A.Ross might expressed who made the lens by different engraving calligraphic styles?? Any insights are appreciated.

At the time my sample was made, the stops were like washers as in here.

https://flic.kr/p/dmgFTq

The waterhouse slot was cut over the barrel after 1858(year of invention of waterhouse stop), after the production of the lens circa 1855 and the cut part with the engraving seemed put on the barrel in the opposite direction against the normal direction.

The original engraving position of the outer barrel must be the opposite side of the rack and pinion. A craftsman cut the outer barrel brass part for the waterhouse stop.

I have confirmed the ross engraving plate was taken from the original outer barrel, based on that the thickness of thin
part and thick part of the engraving plate match to the outer barrel thick part and thin part. I also identified the original position of the plate somewhere in the middle of the waterhouse cutout from the outer barrel.

I aligned the plate to anywhere on the cutout perimeters but didn’t match the cuts and the thin and thick part alignment is in the middle position as in the picture.

so the comma(,) if any was certainly lost because the engraving plate was in the middle of the cutout and unnecessary part was further cut off when attaching to the outer barrel.

The vade mecum says in this kind of conversion to waterhouse slot, the original engraving part is thrown away and a new engraving is made on the outer barrel. That was not the case to this
sample. The original engraving plate was kept by the craftsman kindly to keep the originality.

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I found some info about A.Ross in other threads which are very helpful.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?58528-Your-Oldest-Lens&highlight=ross+engraving
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?87614-Portrait-Lens-Andrew-Ross-(London)-1850s&highlight=ross+engraving

[mhayashi]

some more pics.
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[Steven Tribe]

I havn’t read everything closely yet..
BUT Ross used the Old fashioned fs to represent ss until a serial number that is much higher than yours! Fs was also used on pre 1839 telescopes/brass instruments etc in copperplate engravings.

[Steven Tribe]

Ross must have used at least a couple of engravers in the workshop (generations, illness etc.) and there must have been a slight difference in fine details made from individual to individual.
This is a lovely example of what done in connection with the adoption of Waterhouse slots. Sometimes, just a few words or letters remain on the barrel - next to the cut square. The normal system is to use 4 screws to mount the plate somewhere else on the barrel. There is currently a Voigtlander around which has a wonderful genuine engraving on the lens hood. This was obviously in connection with the lens being converted to Waterhouse slot/cut-out and the identity was “reestablished” by the people at Braunschweig.

You might want to check that the velvet seal in the inside of the brass sleeve is still intact! You can see from the reverse side of the cut-out piece that there is a wide grove where the velvet ribbon has been.

I call these insert hood stops “cup” stops and very few have survived. UK makers went over to WHS very soon after 1857/8. They continued in France much longer. In fact, Lerebours & Secretan continued with them until they went out of business and a good percentage of these lenses still have.

[mhayashi]

Thanks Steven for your insight! I was expecting a reply from you about this topic.
Your mention about the Voigtlander must be this!

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What you mean by velvet seal must be this!
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There is a strip along the thinner part of the outer barrel rim inside.

I also noticed the light leaks from spaces in between the rack and pinion gear base and the inner barrel inside.
Were there some stuffing or taping to prevent the light leak originally?
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[mhayashi]

I also noticed the waterhouse curtain ring for light trap is big for certainty so the effective aperture is lost from f3.3 to f4ish.
I may remove the waterhouse curtain ring or cut the ring to widen the hole diameter to gain more light and the original f3.3.
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If I do this, I would have to make a custom made waterhouse stop to prevent light leak from the slot hole.

[Steven Tribe]

I also noticed the light leaks from spaces in between the rack and pinion gear base and the inner barrel inside.
Were there some stuffing or taping to prevent the light leak originally?
215158

Most makers used some kind of semi-permanent mastic/putty. Perhaps it fell away during the significant work done on the barrel.
Some makers (both English and French) used black paper tape - the same type used to cover drying-out cracks in mahogany plate holders. Sometimes it is possible to identify an unpainted black strip parallel to the track where the original tape has fallen off.

[mhayashi]

Thank you Steven for clarification.
The serial number #2641 production date is corrected to circa 1855, according to Roseman.
The wiki Ross serial numbering periods seem to be unmatched.
He told me to publish about Ross serial numbering soon.

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Ross_serial_numbers

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Thank you Steven for clarification.
The serial number #2641 is corrected to circa 1855, according to Roseman.
The wiki Ross serial numbering periods seem to be unmatched.
He told me to publish about Ross serial numbering soon.

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Ross_serial_numbers

Who is 'Roseman' ?

[mhayashi]

Ron, Roseman is him.
https://flic.kr/p/dmgFTq

[Steven Tribe]

Here is an example of preventing light leaks between the barrel and the steel track.
An English sliding box lens from Horne & Thornthwaite ca. 1851. This is a sort of tar soaked linen tape which still functions,

[mhayashi]

It’s very helpful, Steven. Good to learn.
Thank you!

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Ron, Roseman is him.
https://flic.kr/p/dmgFTq

Thanks you, I believe is name is Ivan Rose, a very competent woodworker (making sliding box camera's)

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Ron, Roseman is him.
https://flic.kr/p/dmgFTq

Many thanks.....he commented not long ago on my self made sliding box camera (https://flic.kr/p/2menMwZ); he's a really experienced craftsman (woodworker and machinist on the lathe) himself

[mhayashi]

Hello, Ron! What a coincidence!
You guys are in Europe so tell us when you visit his atelier someday about his camera work and impressive lens collection!!!

[mhayashi]

Dear Ron and Steven, Mr. Corrado mailed me the new book is published and I have ordred the book just now.
Ivan Rose is the coauthor, who implied the new publication when I contacted him last time!
There should be some answers to the serial number dating of Andrew Ross period.

————————
my latest book on Photographic lenses in 19th century Great Britain and Ireland has just been printed. The book was written in collaboration with three lens experts: Ivan Rose, Mark Carter and Ugo Menichini. Contains 376 pages and 750 photographs. Like my previous books, the cost is € 80 + shipping.

[Ron (Netherlands)]

Dear Ron and Steven, Mr. Corrado mailed me the new book is published and I have ordred the book just now.
Ivan Rose is the coauthor, who implied the new publication when I contacted him last time!
There should be some answers to the serial number dating of Andrew Ross period.

————————
my latest book on Photographic lenses in 19th century Great Britain and Ireland has just been printed. The book was written in collaboration with three lens experts: Ivan Rose, Mark Carter and Ugo Menichini. Contains 376 pages and 750 photographs. Like my previous books, the cost is € 80 + shipping.

Thank you for this useful information. Is this book an update from the Corrado book?
Is there a link to the book or ISBN?

[mhayashi]

Hi Ron, this book is a new publication and the third book since the 19th century lenses about Geman and French books.
There is no link in his site to order this book currently but email him to order.