Roll film and Digital fixed lens camera habits-expectations imported into view camera

[Bernice Loui]

Noted the number of discussion from folks new to this view camera stuff with difficulties using lenses and related that are proving to be difficult.

Seems there are those new to view camera that have essentially imported their lens fixed to the camera body ideas, habits and ways that simply do not apply to this view camera stuff. They impose their expectations gained from using these fixed lens cameras to a view camera expecting much to be the same.

Except this is simply not the way it is, followed by disappointment and possible frustration over why their habits, ways and expectation of what must or should be with their new view camera.


~Discuss.


Bernice

[Serge S]

"their lens fixed to the camera body ideas"


~Discuss.


Bernice

Hi Bernice,

Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Thanks!
Serge

[GRAYnomad]

...essentially imported their lens fixed to the camera body ideas, habits and ways that simply do not apply to this view camera stuff. They impose their expectations gained from using these fixed lens cameras to a view camera expecting much to be the same....

That implies they are coming from a point and shoot or at least a transition camera. Would that be the case? I would think most people graduate to LF after many years working with SLR/DSLR cameras, or maybe MF but many MF cameras have interchangeable lenses as well.

[Bernice Loui]

Consider and ponder what cameras might be and were often used by folks that gain interest in view cameras..

More often than not, their camera history is rooted in roll film cameras like 35mm or 120 roll or digital. How many of these camera have no reflex mirrors, allowance for altering the lens mounting position to be moved, roll film holder or digital image sensor position to be moved relative to camera body or lens and no camera brand mandated lens mounting? Much the same applies to digital cameras. While there are shift-tilt lenses available to these essentially lens mount fixed to the camera body cameras, these tilt-shift lenses are considered a speciality item.

If those are an image makers roots, experience, history, habits.. how to these translate to most any view camera?
At some point, there comes a realization a view camera is quite different than the lens fixed to the camera body camera.


Bernice




Hi Bernice,

Can you elaborate on what you mean?
Thanks!
Serge

[Havoc]

I must say I do have problems with the view camera but they are mostly related to the ground glass/focusing and very slow iso 100 film. It is just so dim and a mess getting a good view or getting the loupe into place. Turning that knob back/front tens of times to see if what you want in focus is now in focus (no, mostly it is not). And then ending up with f/29 1/4 if you are lucky meaning you are limited to bedrock, buildings and dead wildlife/flowers. When it is absolutely windstill or you can just go back home because everything will be blurred anyway. Even worse if you dare to put any filter on it and you have. No flags standing proud, no bikes allowed in the field of view, not even pedestrians, no dogs, certainly no cats or birds... Not a single chance of getting a shot of water that is moving unless you like paste smooth water. Even snails can be risky and only sloths that have passed a taxidermist are a safe bet to get sharp on the negative.

By the time you have set up shop (setting up the tripod, leveling, putting on the camera, "deploying" it, selecting the lens, unpacking it, mounting it, cocking the shutter and opening the the shutter, course setting the bellows, finding the loupe, fixing the cloth) you can just start packing it all up again because the sun has set.

And then you can only go out when it is nice and sunny! Just don't dare to use a darkcloth when there is a bit of wind or it rains! Your bellows get soaked even in the lightest drizzle because it taken ages to set up. Wet gets into the film holders glueing the sheets to the septum if there is more than a suspicion of mist. And your sac is full of water by the time you have taken a single shot.

[Serge S]

OK Bernice - I see what you are getting at.
It seems like anything else, you start shooting like you are accustomed and then slowly take advantage of the capabilities inherent in LF - movements come to mind.
That's how I started, I like the look of the larger format and did not think much about the movements, but soon started using them -
Just looked at the groundglass (WYSIWYG)
Fun to learn something new + break out of a rut & do something new:)
Also the LF camera makes you work differently - so your work is different - I like that -
I tend to the more time, play with reciprocity etc.


Consider and ponder what cameras might be and were often used by folks that gain interest in view cameras..

More often than not, their camera history is rooted in roll film cameras like 35mm or 120 roll or digital. How many of these camera have no reflex mirrors, allowance for altering the lens mounting position to be moved, roll film holder or digital image sensor position to be moved relative to camera body or lens and no camera brand mandated lens mounting? Much the same applies to digital cameras. While there are shift-tilt lenses available to these essentially lens mount fixed to the camera body cameras, these tilt-shift lenses are considered a speciality item.

If those are an image makers roots, experience, history, habits.. how to these translate to most any view camera?
At some point, there comes a realization a view camera is quite different than the lens fixed to the camera body camera.


Bernice

[Higo]

I must say I do have problems with the view camera but they are mostly related to the ground glass/focusing and very slow iso 100 film. It is just so dim and a mess getting a good view or getting the loupe into place. Turning that knob back/front tens of times to see if what you want in focus is now in focus (no, mostly it is not). And then ending up with f/29 1/4 if you are lucky meaning you are limited to bedrock, buildings and dead wildlife/flowers. When it is absolutely windstill or you can just go back home because everything will be blurred anyway. Even worse if you dare to put any filter on it and you have. No flags standing proud, no bikes allowed in the field of view, not even pedestrians, no dogs, certainly no cats or birds... Not a single chance of getting a shot of water that is moving unless you like paste smooth water. Even snails can be risky and only sloths that have passed a taxidermist are a safe bet to get sharp on the negative.

By the time you have set up shop (setting up the tripod, leveling, putting on the camera, "deploying" it, selecting the lens, unpacking it, mounting it, cocking the shutter and opening the the shutter, course setting the bellows, finding the loupe, fixing the cloth) you can just start packing it all up again because the sun has set.

And then you can only go out when it is nice and sunny! Just don't dare to use a darkcloth when there is a bit of wind or it rains! Your bellows get soaked even in the lightest drizzle because it taken ages to set up. Wet gets into the film holders glueing the sheets to the septum if there is more than a suspicion of mist. And your sac is full of water by the time you have taken a single shot.

Re taxidermic sloths,etc. please obtain books by the Kearton Bros. mostly about 1910 and examine. I remember one photo of a fox that took about 5 hours to get and was still very slightly blurred because it was a young fox and continually playing.

[Tin Can]

I find I am learning a bit with my Levy Process camera, posted elsewhere this week

I am shooting X-Ray 8X10 2-1 Macro + with it

The only movement is 3" of fall and rise

Amazing at what that does on my GG

and tiny dancer lighting

[Dugan]

I'm new to LF photography.
I just bought a carbon fiber 8x10 camera, and an APO 58mm f1.2 lens, because the internet said it was the bestest.
I am having trouble focusing it, because the image is upside down, and the autofocus doesn't seem to be working when I try to use it hand- held.
Is it broken?
If so, who can I sue?
Also, I'm looking for the best dedicated flash for it.
I can't seem to find the auto-bracketing feature or the HDR mode.
Would I be better off with a zoom lens?

《Tongue firmly in cheek》

[Drew Bedo]

There do seem to be a number of posts rellated to smart phone apps for lens selection and DOF etc. My earliest instruction in LF usage included the phrase, " The Ground Glass is truth."

Whatever a photographer does before opening the lens and ducking under the dark cloth is just prep for getting it all on the GG; angle of view, composition DOF . . .and everything else.

The digital world is so different from LF. The last five to ten years have seen digital cameras become nearly as fully automatic as the Mark-I eyeball (and that is a good thing). But almost every step in creating an image with LF gear requires a cvoncious thought from screwing the camera body to the legs to rigging it all down again and all that comes besewn.

That is a significant part of what I enjoy about the creative process and workflow in using a view camera.

[Drew Wiley]

An upside-down image? You accidentally ordered the Southern Hemisphere model !

[Jim Noel]

I must say I do have problems with the view camera but they are mostly related to the ground glass/focusing and very slow iso 100 film. It is just so dim and a mess getting a good view or getting the loupe into place. Turning that knob back/front tens of times to see if what you want in focus is now in focus (no, mostly it is not). And then ending up with f/29 1/4 if you are lucky meaning you are limited to bedrock, buildings and dead wildlife/flowers. When it is absolutely windstill or you can just go back home because everything will be blurred anyway. Even worse if you dare to put any filter on it and you have. No flags standing proud, no bikes allowed in the field of view, not even pedestrians, no dogs, certainly no cats or birds... Not a single chance of getting a shot of water that is moving unless you like paste smooth water. Even snails can be risky and only sloths that have passed a taxidermist are a safe bet to get sharp on the negative.

By the time you have set up shop (setting up the tripod, leveling, putting on the camera, "deploying" it, selecting the lens, unpacking it, mounting it, cocking the shutter and opening the the shutter, course setting the bellows, finding the loupe, fixing the cloth) you can just start packing it all up again because the sun has set.

And then you can only go out when it is nice and sunny! Just don't dare to use a darkcloth when there is a bit of wind or it rains! Your bellows get soaked even in the lightest drizzle because it taken ages to set up. Wet gets into the film holders glueing the sheets to the septum if there is more than a suspicion of mist. And your sac is full of water by the time you have taken a single shot.

Part of the reason for using a LF camera is that it takes longer allowing more time to think about the image prior to pushing the button.
As for sun, my preference is for the quiet light of cloudy days, or prior to sunrise, or just after sunset.
Practice and perseverance will teach you how to overcome the blowing dark cloth, how to work during inclement weather, the beauty of moving water and blowing trees.
It is a different world and those who enter may benefit because it slows them down in their very active, too fast moving world.
If I still lived in the fast paced world every day, I'm certain I would never have lived for 92 years. in other words, large format photography has played a part in lengthening my life. I still attempt to do something in photography every day, and that does not mean I point my telephone and hit the button then maybe spend the rest of the day sitting in front of a computer. I don't do that, I get out a nice, large camera, or work with a large negative in the darkroom making prints.

[Drew Bedo]

As a biology major in college I often had lab classes that involved microscope work. That image is also inverted. This can be disconcerting at first, but with practice or experience up-side-down and backwards becomes more comfortable to work with.

The deliberate nature of the view camera work flow makes each exposure a deliberate act of creative expression. Reactive or spontaneous grab shooting is not done with a classic view camera. The press cameras got around that slow speed photography.

There are other grab-shot alternatives in LF though. The TrasvelWide and Will Travel cameras for instance. The wave of Polaroid 110 conversions to 4x5 of ten years ago was a step towards the spontaneous hand-held style that originated in the 1930 with the Leica/Contax/Zeiss rangefinder cameras.

[grat]

The digital world is so different from LF. The last five to ten years have seen digital cameras become nearly as fully automatic as the Mark-I eyeball (and that is a good thing). But almost every step in creating an image with LF gear requires a conscious thought from screwing the camera body to the legs to rigging it all down again and all that comes besewn.


And that's why I picked up a film camera for the first time in 30 years about a year ago. Although I am amused by the process of setting up, composing, metering, checking, double-checking the settings, doing a test fire, pulling the dark slide, all for that 1/15th of a second long "CLICK"-- and then you tear it all down again. The actual act of taking the photograph is a bit of an anti-climax. :)

[Paul Ron]

its not only limited to large format transitions. many 35mm shooters have trouble going over to medium format. upside down reversed viewfinders, no mirror return, manual film advance n if you got an RB67 you have to crank the body n film seperately for every frame. as a repairmen, ive seen stuck lenses on out of sync bodies, jamed cameras that were forced n almost totally destroyed. small things like getting use to roll film vs canistered film and now loading n unloading single frame holders in total darkness. new processes n habits... expectations? the only expectation is better sharper images on large format film.

so going over to large format has its own idiosyncrasies. what it all comes down to isnt expectations, its a new learning curve.

i made a living using a technical lf camera for 30 yrs, then went over to a studio n rb67 set up complete with strobes for 20 years. when i went back to lf. i just had to relearn n gain new shooting skills n habbits.

oh digital machine gun cameras... hahahaha you can blow 1000 shots in one session n never had to focus or adjust snything except my attatude in front of a computer going over all that junk in search of 4 good images.

[John Earley]

I started in LF shortly after starting in 35mm and MF back in the 60's. There was less of a problem with the switch back then partly due to it all being analog. Eventually I shot less and less LF and more MF and then less of that with 35mm being an almost exclusive format just before the digital "revolution" began. Then when costs for film equipment went down I started the process again - 35mm, MF and then LF. Now the biggest challenge is the weight of the LF equipment.

I also find it interesting that digital shooters are forever trying to emulate the results that LF shooters get.

[ic-racer]

I'd have no idea. I think it has been at least ten since I spoke to anyone that also has a view camera.

[LabRat]

For me, one thing for sure, when I first used a fone or point and shoot digi, had no problem with the LCD screen as it reminded me of a lit GG...

Until the light from behind me flared up the screen... ,-(

Steve K

[Havoc]

For me, one thing for sure, when I first used a fone or point and shoot digi, had no problem with the LCD screen as it reminded me of a lit GG...

Until the light from behind me flared up the screen... ,-(

Steve K

Well, you can always use a dark cloth on your phone... An lcd behaves just the same as a GG when lit by direct sunlight so the solution is similar.

[esearing]

I have trouble using small formats now. With LF I take a handful of shots in a day and its generally at a researched location. With an SLR/RF I can run through a roll of 36 in a day but still only end up with one or two keepers. And I hate printing those because I have to adjust my 4x5 enlarger to accommodate the smaller format.
With my rangefinders I especially have a hard time remembering when to cock the shutter, did I take the lens cap off, averaging meter vs spot metering adjustments, which f-stop for DOF, what film is in the camera. And I always seem to run out of film early. I bought a 6x9 back for my 4x5 but have only taken a couple of shots with it. I just don't like to do the "extras" as much as I did with digital. My DSLR has sat in its storage pack for about 2 years now.

[Havoc]

which f-stop for DOF, what film is in the camera.

That is something that is the other way round for me. With 35mm (at least with older lenses) there is a useful DOF marking on the barrel. Might not be perfect but at least there is something. I miss this on LF because closing the lens just makes the GG so dim you have no idea what the dof might be.