Best 4x5 camera to accommodate a 65mm lens?

[voe]

Hi all,

Could you please help advise which 4x5 camera that can accommodate a 65mm lens would recommend?
I currently have Shen Hao hzx45-iia but my Nikon 65mm SW lens cannot focus to infinity. I understand a bag bellows would help, but before I further invest in it I was wondering what are the better alternatives out there for wide lenses (like the 65mm).

Many thanks,

Voe

[Huub]

It amazes me that you can't focus your 65mm on a HZX-IIa, as i have no issues focussing my 58mm on the same camera. The 58 is mounted on a flat lensboard and I have to admit thet it results in a pretty cramped bellows, but it still is very workable. Is your 65mm mounted on a recessed lensboard?

[Mick Fagan]

I have the same camera and I have a 65mm lens, but my lens is the Fujinon 65mm f/5.6.

I can just focus to infinity with the original bellows, but my lens is on a recessed lens board, which probably helps. My recessed lens board is a 10mm recess, I think. Not much, but it works a treat.

I have the bag bellows for the Shen Hao, it really makes life very easy with anything from 90mm down. In fact with the extremes of movement I sometimes use with the 90mm with architectural photography, you definitely can use the bag bellows and huge movements without twisting the standard bellows and thereby eventually destroying the original bellows.

The bag bellows fold flat as a pancake and only take around 2 minutes to change over, tops.

Attached are the bag bellows with a 90mm lens, rear look at the bag bellows and 90mm lens with extreme movement that will eventually destroy a standard bellows, the 65mm mounted on a recessed board.

The bag bellows, ex factory stock is quite cheap, or was when I bought mine around 12-15 years ago from a North American photographic dealer, including posting to Australia.

Mick.


213851213852213853

[Tobias Key]

Depends on how you are using the camera and how much portability you need but I picked up a Toyo 45C monorail with a short rail and bag bellows (and a roll film slider) for £250. That's only slightly more than a set of new bag bellows, and is probably better for architecture than a field camera. All large format cameras come with compromises, it just depends what is important for you.

[John Earley]

Like Mick I have the same HZX-lla and the 65/5.6 SWD Fuji and it focuses to infinity with the standard bellows but without any movement. With a bag bellows I would likely get a small amount of movement with this lens at infinity.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Horseman 45FA

[djdister]

It will be easier with a camera without a fixed front bed, so a Canham 4x5 DLC, with normal or bag bellows.

[Drew Bedo]

UMmm . . .A travlWide or Will Travel?

Dunno if either are "best" but both will do it pretty well.

Is a recessed lens board a viable option?

[Drew Bedo]

It will be easier with a camera without a fixed front bed, so a Canham 4x5 DLC, with normal or bag bellows.


I have not used one in years but . . .

A Speed Graphic has the ability to drop the front track and still focus the front standard while very close to the GG. I have done this with a 90mm, but never with anything as short as 65mm.

[Corran]

You already own a perfectly capable camera. I'll admit the SH is a bit confusing at first (there are a LOT of knobs) so my guess is you may be completely unaware that you can move the rear standard forward. Go back and read your manual if it came with one, or sit down and fiddle with it. I tried a 47m XL on mine and it worked fine.

[Dan Fromm]

A Speed Graphic has the ability to drop the front track and still focus the front standard while very close to the GG. I have done this with a 90mm, but never with anything as short as 65mm.

So you'll know, the 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic's minimum extension is 66.7 mm. It will focus some, not all, 65s. Check the candidate lens' flange-to-film distance at infinity.

The 4x5 Crown Graphic's minimum extension is 52.4 mm. It is a much better choice for short lenses than a Speed.

Remember that these cameras' only usable movement is front rise.

[Paul Ron]

i am a bit confused about using short lenses. ive tried using a 75mm caltar on my wista and the rear lens was so close to the gg. i was advised to mount the lens on a ressesed board n did but the distance to the gg id still the same despite being able to advance the front the same distance of the recess.

so my confusion stems from the fact no matter how you use the lens, the rear lens will always be the same distance from the gg.

so why does it matter which camera or how the lens is mounted make any difference?

[Dan Fromm]

so why does it matter which camera or how the lens is mounted make any difference?

Flange-to-film distance is flange-to-film distance is flange-to-film distance. Not all cameras have the same minimum distance between the standards. Mounting a lens on a recessed board increases the distance between the standards for a given flange-to-film distance.

[Bernice Loui]

Best view camera for a 65mm lens.. assuming this is a wide angle, depends on what is needed to be achieved. There are NO best, just a mixed set of trade offs.

Field folders tend to lightweight, easy portable but limiting in various ways from the need for a recessed lens board (which restricts how shutter controls can be accessed). There is camera movement question, for images that require no significant movement a field folder would be no problem at all. If camera movements are required, issues and questions like ability for the bellows to accommodate camera movement, preventing the front bed of the camera from appearing in the image, ability to focus the lens with the front standard recessed. Generally, a mono rail with bag bellows works easiest, has the greatest ability to access the lens capabilities with short focal length lenses, but it gives up ease of portability, lightest weight and ...

Now, what are the image making needs? Again, this is what should decide camera, not camera deciding lens.



Bernice

[mdarnton]

The reason for the recessed board is to give more flex for movements, since the bellows are less compressed. It can't change the characteristics of the lens!

For 65mm I use a Cambo, recessed board, bag bellows, short rail. A couple of years ago that was a dirt cheap setup. . . .less so now. Anyway, that camera is for 65 to 108mm for me.

[jnantz]

what 65 do you have ?
I use a Schneider super angulon (65 ) with both a speed graphic (pacemaker) and toyo cx (with recessed lens board)

[Paul Ron]

i am a bit confused about using short lenses. ive tried using a 75mm caltar on my wista and the rear lens was so close to the gg. i was advised to mount the lens on a ressesed board n did but the distance to the gg id still the same despite being able to advance the front the same distance of the recess.

so my confusion stems from the fact no matter how you use the lens, the rear lens will always be the same distance from the gg.

so why does it matter which camera or how the lens is mounted make any difference?


Flange-to-film distance is flange-to-film distance is flange-to-film distance. Not all cameras have the same minimum distance between the standards. Mounting a lens on a recessed board increases the distance between the standards for a given flange-to-film distance.


i understad the recessed board gives standard to standard spacing to accomodate different cameras, but doesnt solve the problem of the rear lens being so close to the film. no matter how or what you do that seems to always be a problem.

are there special wide lenses that can increase the distance between the film and rear of the lens?

[Corran]

Paul, why is that a problem?

Secondly, what you are looking for is a retrofocus lens, as is common with SLR cameras. Most modern wides are very slightly RF but there was one, a Komura if I remember, that was very retrofocus. Someone will tell you the exact model I am sure, but just search 75mm large format retrofocus and I'm sure you'll find it.

[Bernice Loui]

Retrofocus lenses are virtually a given for Single Lens Reflex cameras due to the lens flange to film distance mandated by the mirror. Retrofocus design lenses compensate by increasing the back focus distance being longer than the lens focal length optically. This can help reduce effected light fall off by reducing the angle of the light cone reaching the film, trading off optical complexity with greatly increased optical elements, mechanical complexity of the lens and weight.

One of the wide angle boat anchor lenses once owned in the past was the 50mm f2.8 Zeiss Distagon for Hasselblad. Good lens, HEAVY, BIG and all that. Has an effective focal length shorter than it's back focal length.

Retrofocus lenses for view cameras are not common or needed as they have a different set of requirements and design trade offs. There is no need to allow for reflex mirror clearance or fixed back focus distance. There is a need for largest reasonable image circle and other optical advantages retrofocus lens designs do not offer.

This is much a camera question, not a lens question. IMO, 65mm lenses can be used effectively on field folders with specific limitations. Accept and live with them, move on.


Bernice

[Bernice Loui]

All that said..

Sinar Norma example.

5x7 Norma short, the rear element of the 75mm Gradagon is about 30mm from the ground glass. Optically, this can never work, camera is not the limitation. ~The will not post in original image position problem again.

213934


With bag bellows and shift-rise. Same front to rear standards distance.
213933


Bernice

[Paul Ron]

Paul, why is that a problem?

.

first we arent talking about mf or 35mm... thats a different animal n the problem has been cured for those formats.

never mind if its 75 or 65mm..... the problem is the rear of the lens is very close to the film plane limiting what you can do with it.... thats the limitation of lf cameras n lenses. so recessed lens boards n bag bellows n different cameras dont make any difference.... am i correct?

[Dan Fromm]

first we arent talking about mf or 35mm... thats a different animal n the problem has been cured for those formats.

never mind if its 75 or 65mm..... the problem is the rear of the lens is very close to the film plane limiting what you can do with it.... thats the limitation of lf cameras n lenses. so recessed lens boards n bag bellows n different cameras dont make any difference.... am i correct?


I already explained to you that a recessed board can make a difference. A compressed bag bellows is shorter than a compressed standard bellows. This can make a difference. Not all cameras have the same minimum distance between the standards. This can make a difference.

All that said, why are you hung up on back focus? What matters is flange-to-film distance.

[Corran]

But, why is it a problem? I fail to see how the distance to the film plane makes any difference. Bag bellows and recessed lens boards help overcome issues that arise in terms of movements, due to compression of the bellows when focusing a lens that short.

If it was actually a problem, retrofocus lenses would be more in vogue for LF.

[Bernice Loui]

Problem could be expectations and habits from using lens fixed to the camera body cameras.. These habits and expectations simply do not apply to a view camera.. most any view camera. Coupled with a refusal to change and accept the view camera for what it is.. essentially a light tight box that is flexi in the center that is so very different than a lens fixed to the camera body .. camera.

It is much about trying to impose what once was to a image making means that is quite different than what once was.


Bernice



But, why is it a problem? I fail to see how the distance to the film plane makes any difference. Bag bellows and recessed lens boards help overcome issues that arise in terms of movements, due to compression of the bellows when focusing a lens that short.

If it was actually a problem, retrofocus lenses would be more in vogue for LF.

[djdister]

I have used a 65mm lens on a Horseman 45FA, and used the drop bed feature, but it was a bit dicey. And I've used a 75mm lens on a 5x7 Canham MQC without too much trouble. Just slid the front and rear standards close to the front, no bed dropping necessary.

[Matted]

Certainly not the cheapest option, but my Arca F Field (141 rear Standard) can focus my 55 Grandagon-N with the standard bellows and still allows for some movements. I have a bag bellows but never use it.

[Per Madsen]

I have the Nikon 65/4 and i use it on my Toyo 45AII with a 1 " recessed board (not made anymore, but can be obtained on E-bay).

Works fine, but if you use front movements (downwards) you get the camera bed in the picture, if you are not carefull.

[robphoto]

All that said..

Sinar Norma example.

5x7 Norma short, the rear element of the 75mm Gradagon is about 30mm from the ground glass. Optically, this can never work, camera is not the limitation. ~The will not post in original image position problem again.

213934


With bag bellows and shift-rise. Same front to rear standards distance.
213933


Bernice

The amazing thing with that setup is that the 75mm 6.8 Grandagon just about covers the 5x7, with some fall off of course.

Beautiful Norma camera!

[esearing]

My list of cameras that work with a 65MM lens without a recessed board.

Calumet Monorail - barely
Ikeda Anba - bellows fully compressed, No movements without racking it out first.
Shenhao HZ something - I sold it.
Chamonix N2

I had one Nagaoka wood field camera that would not allow rear standard movement enough to go below 75mm due to metal parts construction.

[Paul Ron]

All that said..

Sinar Norma example.

5x7 Norma short, the rear element of the 75mm Gradagon is about 30mm from the ground glass. Optically, this can never work, camera is not the limitation. ~The will not post in original image position problem again.

213934


With bag bellows and shift-rise. Same front to rear standards distance.
213933


Bernice

and there you have it!

its not the camera or bellows or recessed boards... the problem is the rear of the lens is so close to the ground glass, you are limited by how much adjustments you can make without hitting the gg or film using short focal length lenses.

so it doesnt matter which camera or bellows or recessed boards you use... you are limited by the short focal length... thats just the nature of the beast like it or not.

[Corran]

Chicken or egg Paul?

On my Toyota GII with bag bellows you could tilt or rise or shift to the limit of the camera. There isn't enough image circle to support it. I'm still unsure what's the hangup with FFD.

[Bob Salomon]

My list of cameras that work with a 65MM lens without a recessed board.

Calumet Monorail - barely
Ikeda Anba - bellows fully compressed, No movements without racking it out first.
Shenhao HZ something - I sold it.
Chamonix N2

I had one Nagaoka wood field camera that would not allow rear standard movement enough to go below 75mm due to metal parts construction.

LInhof 45 Technika. LInhof Technikardan.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48566797021_690b4a2bef_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gZFwHk)Reprint DII Rock Bridge 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2gZFwHk) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Rock Bridge, Hocking Hills, Southern Ohio

This is the 58mm Rodenstock Graflex XL Grandagon, mounted in a very deeply recessed homemade custom Norma board. I was doing a lot of wide photography and needed something wider than 65mm for 4x5. The front and back standards of the Sinar Norma can be made to touch each other, without a board or bellows attached. That in my mind is about as good as you can get.

A Biogon design that covers 9x12cm, or 4x5 if focused hyperfocally. But you can see all four corners of the image circle in this shot

[Tin Can]

Good


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48566797021_690b4a2bef_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2gZFwHk)Reprint DII Rock Bridge 3 (https://flic.kr/p/2gZFwHk) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Rock Bridge, Hocking Hills, Southern Ohio

This is the 58mm Rodenstock Graflex XL Grandagon, mounted in a very deeply recessed homemade custom Norma board. I was doing a lot of wide photography and needed something wider than 65mm for 4x5. The front and back standards of the Sinar Norma can be made to touch each other, without a board or bellows attached. That in my mind is about as good as you can get.

A Biogon design that covers 9x12cm, or 4x5 if focused hyperfocally. But you can see all four corners of the image circle in this shot

[Daniel Unkefer]

Thanks Tin Can! I had to hike many miles in thick brush to get to this site. When I got there I was glad Norma was along :)

I have a barrel mounted Sinar Norma 65mm F8 Super Angulon, with direct operating mickey mouse aperture cable. Because of that it was forward mounted at the Sinar factory, so it would work full range with the Norma shutter. I bought it decades ago from Glenn Evans. That lens is on a flat board, on a top hat, and it still focuses full range and has full moves on the Norma

[Paul Ron]

Chicken or egg Paul?

On my Toyota GII with bag bellows you could tilt or rise or shift to the limit of the camera. There isn't enough image circle to support it. I'm still unsure what's the hangup with FFD.

egg!
reptiles were laying eggs long before chickens existed.

btw DU, great shot!

.

[Daniel Unkefer]

Thanks Paul :)

[Joshua Dunn]

Questions like this is why I am such a proponent of the Sinar F2. You can get a Sinar F2 for less than $500, often less than $400. You then have a foundation to make a configuration to do almost anything you can think of. I find this is extremely helpful for students of mine starting out in large format. Once they learn the basics of large format they don't have to change camera systems to configure their camera to their personal style of work. With a Sinar they can use it for anything from ultrawide angle lenses with recessed lens boards and bag bellows to multiple standards and bellows for use with long lenses or macro work, or anything in between. You can also easily change the rear stand to change your format. There is a tradeoff as they are a little larger, heavier and more difficult to pack. However, especially for the price, they are hard to beat for versatility.

-Joshua

[Bernice Loui]

Explain why the rear of the lens being close to the Ground Glass a problem? Yes, this has been discussed more than a few times.
The Sinar Norma or Lego_ized Sinar camer has zero issues with the rear of the lens being close to the ground glass or using any similar camera has any functional image making issues..

Again, explain what and why is there a problem with the rear of the lens being close to the ground glass? ..... Or would the rear of the lens being close to the ground glass being your expectation of what a LF wide angle optic should NOT be?



Bernice


and there you have it!

its not the camera or bellows or recessed boards... the problem is the rear of the lens is so close to the ground glass, you are limited by how much adjustments you can make without hitting the gg or film using short focal length lenses.

so it doesnt matter which camera or bellows or recessed boards you use... you are limited by the short focal length... thats just the nature of the beast like it or not.

[Daniel Unkefer]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50322638263_532d02d514_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c)Sinar Norma Handy Lowboy 1 (https://flic.kr/p/2jEQF9c) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

Last year I finished building in my workshop this custom made "Handy" Sinar Norma camera, it uses original Norma parts, including the Norma Helical Mount for the chrome 65mm F8 Super Angulon. Yes this one is HANDY they named it right :) Can be handheld or tripod mounted. The viewfinder is for the Mamiya 7 43mm and works pretty good. The strap lugs bolted to the Norma Standard Frame came from the Pentax 6x7.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50299452847_3418a21bf0_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD)Sinar Norma Handy w TTL Sinarsix metering (https://flic.kr/p/2jCMQVD) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50547233136_f496b269a7_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2k1FMnA)Ashton Pond Norma Handy HRU Mic-X (https://flic.kr/p/2k1FMnA) by Nokton48 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/18134483@N04/), on Flickr

This camera is an absolute BLAST to use and attracts a lot of attention if people are around especially photographers

Ashton Pond Columbus Ohio Sinar Norma Handy 4x5 Fuji HR-U XRay 65mm F8 at F22 Schneider CF + Sinar Norma Dark Yellow 103mm Glass Disk 1 sec at F22 Legacy Mic-X replenished stock in tray 18 mins at 62F Arista #2 RC 4x 8x10 Multigrade dev Omega DII with 180 black Rodagon and Omegalite

[John Layton]

Linhof Technikardan

[ic-racer]

I scanned the thread because, as a Horseman FA user, I don't think it is the best. In fact it is pretty difficult to use a 65mm. It is doable, and there is a focus scale for 65mm lens on the camera, but not what I'd call the 'best.'

[maltfalc]

So you'll know, the 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic's minimum extension is 66.7 mm. It will focus some, not all, 65s. Check the candidate lens' flange-to-film distance at infinity.

The 4x5 Crown Graphic's minimum extension is 52.4 mm. It is a much better choice for short lenses than a Speed.

Remember that these cameras' only usable movement is front rise.a pacemaker can do rise, fall, tilt and shift, though you won't be getting much of any of those with a 65mm lens.

[Dan Fromm]

a pacemaker can do rise, fall, tilt and shift, though you won't be getting much of any of those with a 65mm lens.

I have four Pacemaker Graphics and I think you're badly mistaken. Front rise, yes. Front fall using the standard as is, not. Front fall using the standard on a dropped bed works for a limited range of focal lengths and focused distances. Front shift, a little as long as the standard is in front of the bed struts. Forward tilt, yes. Backwards tilt, yes with the standard on a dropped bed but works for a limited range of focal lengths and focused distances.

Mince words and quibble all you want, practically speaking a Pacemaker Graphic is a terrible substitute for a view camera.

[maltfalc]

I have four Pacemaker Graphics and I think you're badly mistaken. Front rise, yes. Front fall using the standard as is, not. Front fall using the standard on a dropped bed works for a limited range of focal lengths and focused distances. Front shift, a little as long as the standard is in front of the bed struts. Forward tilt, yes. Backwards tilt, yes with the standard on a dropped bed but works for a limited range of focal lengths and focused distances.

Mince words and quibble all you want, practically speaking a Pacemaker Graphic is a terrible substitute for a view camera.
i may be the humble owner of only a single pacemaker speed graphic, but i can achieve all those movements without even dropping the bed. if you haven't figured out how to do it with four pacemakers, it's a matter of your limitations, not the cameras'.

[Corran]

I've owned dozens of Graphics of all sizes and stripes and Dan is 100% correct. Almost all the movements mentioned are only usable in very limited circumstances. Don't forget too, not in vertical orientation!

[maltfalc]

I've owned dozens of Graphics of all sizes and stripes and Dan is 100% correct. Almost all the movements mentioned are only usable in very limited circumstances. Don't forget too, not in vertical orientation!no, he's not. i'll give you a hint: rise and fall require the exact same geometry between the lens and film, if you can achieve one you can achieve the other, without having to reposition the lens. and in vertical orientation you get reduced rise and fall, way more shift and you trade up/down tilt for left/right tilt.

[Dan Fromm]

i may be the humble owner of only a single pacemaker speed graphic, but i can achieve all those movements without even dropping the bed. if you haven't figured out how to do it with four pacemakers, it's a matter of your limitations, not the cameras'.

Front fall without dropping the bed? GMAFB! At the function carrier's lowest position in the standard, the lens' axis is centered in the gate. Front rise becomes front fall when the camera is inverted. Is that what you do? If so, how do you attach the camera to a tripod?

[maltfalc]

Front fall without dropping the bed? GMAFB! At the function carrier's lowest position in the standard, the lens' axis is centered in the gate. Front rise becomes front fall when the camera is inverted. Is that what you do? If so, how do you attach the camera to a tripod?

DING DING DING! the camera doesn't give a damn which side is facing up and it's no more difficult to use inverted. hell, the bed shades the lens and is great for clipping a dark cloth to. i use the tripod mounts and a pan/tilt head. an L bracket would work too.

[Dan Fromm]

DING DING DING! the camera doesn't give a damn which side is facing up and it's no more difficult to use inverted. hell, the bed shades the lens and is great for clipping a dark cloth to. i use the tripod mounts and a pan/tilt head. an L bracket would work too.

That's nice. But shift is minimal and limited by the bed struts and swings are still non-existent.

[Corran]

Look, I've got many of my Graphics modded to do forward tilt without dropping the bed. But that's not how it was designed. Hacking the camera is a different discussion.

[maltfalc]

Look, I've got many of my Graphics modded to do forward tilt without dropping the bed. But that's not how it was designed. Hacking the camera is a different discussion.

then why are you bringing it up? my speed graphic isn't modded (at least in terms of movements). it does forward tilt without dropping the bed, using only the capabilities it was designed to have. you not knowing the camera's capabilities doesn't mean it doesn't have them.

[Dan Fromm]

Bryan, all you have to do is turn your Graphic on its head or flop it on its side. You can't have all movements at the same time, but who needs them all at the same time? You, like me, lack imagination and desire and are too hung up on using your gear as its makers intended. Shame on both of us.

[Greg]

I use a 65mm Nikkor on my 45N-2 Chamonix with its normal bellows without any problems. Seriously thought about acquiring a 45H-1 or 45HS-1 Chamonix for using exclusively with my 65mm and 90mm optics, but just couldn't justify the costs since my 45N-2 works just fine.

[Corran]

then why are you bringing it up? my speed graphic isn't modded (at least in terms of movements). it does forward tilt without dropping the bed, using only the capabilities it was designed to have. you not knowing the camera's capabilities doesn't mean it doesn't have them.

No it doesn't, unless you turn the camera over and have modded the camera to have a mount that way. There is not a top tripod mount like on the Linhofs.

If your camera naturally has forward tilt without dropping the bed, then it has been modded to reverse the front standard- as I and many have done to their Graphics.