Making J Lane Positive Plates? (Famous Format Monobath?)

[m00dawg]

Curious, I'm sure I'm not the only person that was thinking J Lane dry plates might be a good compromise to going full wet plate? Specifically, I've been wanting to go to a local market days in a small town where I think doing 1800's style Polaroids would be really fun. But I'm not quite ready to go full wet-plate, and that involves steps that J's dry plates solve.

The problem of course is you get a negative normally and I found, at least using HC-110, that simply putting something dark behind the glass (like black cardboard) doesn't create a positive look. But I noticed in his FAQ (https://www.pictoriographica.com/technicals-and-tips.html) he mentions using FF No.1 MONOBATH DEVELOPER to create an Ambrotype.

Has anyone tried this? Being a monobath, that would couple well with doing 'field' development rather well!, though I generally have avoided monobaths like the plague :) but in this case, it might be worth a shot? I'm curious what makes it work like this compared to, say, HC-110?

Likewise, are there any other developers that could be used to try and get a positive look or has anyone tried a reversal process?

As far as the J Lane plates themselves, while I've only shot one so far (waiting on a proper dry plate holder in the mail for ease of loading and unloading), it turned out beautiful! Super excited to shoot more!

EDIT: Aha! I think this might be dated info, but a bit more info about what's going on (and an optional dev non-monobath dev):

https://www.pictoriographica.com/store/p17/dryplate_ambrotype.html

Those are hand coated onto black glass. I see only 8x10 is in stock though. I would guess J Lane is probably super busy now that his plates are available in several places outside of his Etsy store, but I might reach out to see if this is still an option.

[RedGreenBlue]

Just a suggestion. To make an ambrotype try exposing and developing another plate so that you get a thin negative. Ambrotypes are actually thin negatives with a black backing.

Scott

[Tin Can]

I ordered J Lane 8x10 Black Glass ASA 25 today

2 more sets of 8X10 left

If i mess them up, I can reuse the plates after cleaning them, wet or dry

Back in the day, child labor cleaned used plates for reuse

[m00dawg]

Just a suggestion. To make an ambrotype try exposing and developing another plate so that you get a thin negative. Ambrotypes are actually thin negatives with a black backing.

Scott

Oooooh great point! That might be part of it. My test shot was done in HC-110 to the specified times and it's a bit dense. I had the pleasure of taking to J Lane himself today about the ambrotype method and he also has a developer he sometimes has available that may perform better than the FF Monobath (though I ordered a bottle to try out). You can also order black glass occasionally from him. I think that info gets posted on a Facebook page though my New Years resolution was to not use FB :) However for others, that's something to consider.

For now I'm going to try using my current clear black backing just to see. Good call on the thin negative though. I definitely think that's part of it. That test shot scanned fine but I haven't tried printing it (contact or enlarging). I'll likely do that after I shoot a few more shots that aren't just haphazard portraits with a color chart ;)

If I can get decent result with clear glass with a dark backing, this may work out better I think. If means I can frame the print with the emulsion facing inward and while that might look odd at off-angles, it might better protect the emulsion? I'll have to do some testing with that though, but sure would be nice to give folks a ready to take home result, frame in all, that was also reasonably protected so hoping that works.

I guess we'll find out once the monobath and my proper dry plate holder arrives!

[RedGreenBlue]

If means I can frame the print with the emulsion facing inward and while that might look odd at off-angles, it might better protect the emulsion? I'll have to do some testing with that though, but sure would be nice to give folks a ready to take home result, frame in all, that was also reasonably protected so hoping that works.


Yes, the backing is applied over the emulsion and the ambrotype is viewed through the glass. I think there's no need to be concerned about viewing through the glass - that was the method. And of course, the emulsion is protected by the black coating. I hope this works out for you.

[Tin Can]

https://blog.scienceandmediamuseum.org.uk/find-out-when-a-photo-was-taken-identify-collodion-positive-ambrotype/

However a few here have moved the game

Tri Tran for one

[Nodda Duma]

The method OP is referring to is the combination of using the dry plates and a developer which causes (as far as I can tell) dichroic fog of a type resulting in an off-white toned silver grain.

In addition, results look best on smooth black glass plates that I found for wet plate shooters.

It’s still experimental, but as you can see looks very promising. These are 8x10’s, emulsion coated on black glass, shot at ASA 25, developed in a monobath developer designed for the purpose by Lee Lira

Further refinements awaiting a shipment of more black glass, as I am almost out of the first shipment. That and my day job is super busy (I’m presenting a formal detailed optical design review every week from mid-February to end of April for the project I’m leading a team of lens designers on)

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[m00dawg]

Ok first, your day job sounds really cool!! Second, that's one thing I kept meaning to ask in our Etsy convo (I'm BitByBit Photo over there) - there wouldn't really be any difference in processing between the ISO 2 normal plates and the ISO 25 speed plates right (other than maybe time)? That is to say, the ISO 2 plates should still produce the ambrotype like effect if using the same developer?

I think for doing the ambrotype method for portraits, the speed plates seem like the way to go but I have several of the normal plates still since I had planned on using those mostly for not-people and enjoy being able to shoot at a super low ISO in large format. It's fun! I had though, too, the normal plates might be a decent option if I couple it with strobes (noting I'd have to do quite a bit of testing there, and may need some pretty powerful strobes as well).

[jnantz]

The method OP is referring to is the combination of using the dry plates and a developer which causes (as far as I can tell) dichroic fog of a type resulting in an off-white toned silver grain.

In addition, results look best on smooth black glass plates that I found for wet plate shooters.

It’s still experimental, but as you can see looks very promising. These are 8x10’s, emulsion coated on black glass, shot at ASA 25, developed in a monobath developer designed for the purpose by Lee Lira

Further refinements awaiting a shipment of more black glass, as I am almost out of the first shipment. That and my day job is super busy (I’m presenting a formal detailed optical design review every week from mid-February to end of April for the project I’m leading a team of lens designers on)

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I have been thinking a lot about dichroic fog

thanks Jason !! great stuff you do!
John

[Nodda Duma]

I have been thinking a lot about dichroic fog

thanks Jason !! great stuff you do!
John

John I don’t know if you’re on facebook, but if so this is an ongoing active topic of conversation in Dry Plate Photographers group.

If you had any thoughts, Lee Lira would love to hear them...he’s been obsessed with trying to make it work. :)

[m00dawg]

Hopefully those of ya'll that are on FB can perhaps report back? :) Can we entire Lee to maybe come over here and stop by perhaps? ;)

[Tin Can]

I don't believe a MonoBath is best ever, it was used historically for expediency

Now another https://cinestillfilm.com/products/df96-developer-fix-b-w-monobath-single-step-solution-for-processing-at-home

https://emulsive.org/articles/darkroom/review-comparing-ff-no-1-and-cinestill-df96-monobath-developers

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/developing-film-in-the-cassette.341735/

[Nodda Duma]

Yeah I’m not necessarily a monobath fan, but that’s just how these developers came together as the easiest way to throw ammonia into the mix.

[m00dawg]

I'm all ears, Tin, if you have some thoughts but I think J is spot on here (I mean they are his plates ;) )- it's only one of two known ways to get the ambrotype look with the dry plates as far as I know? The other one is, if I connected the dots correctly, something Lee is working on. And that may be superior to the monobath in quality, but this at least lets me experiment around. And between nothing and an experiment, I'll take the latter.

I normally don't like monobaths either. I'm an XTOL guy normally, though given the current state of that, may have to jump ship here pretty soon :/ but in this case, I have a very specific use case - trying to create something like an ambrotype and, though a lesser degree, the monobath would simplify things for my fairly specific use case.

When I'm dev'ing the dry plates as a normal negative, so far, I've been sticking to the recommendations, which is HC-110. I will test XTOL for funzies once I can get my hands on it again. But HC-110 worked great! Beautiful grain! I think I may be over-developing a bit but otherwise, it's great!

[urnem57]

This was interesting and along the same lines of this discussion, I think.
https://youtu.be/tbh3qQUXdzU

[Tin Can]

Yes interesting

I am not a chemist nor expert on wet or dry plates

I experiment

However I do prefer to vary one chem, process, tech at a time

Mystery solutions are always mysterious and mutable

A still existing problem, common to many photographers since the beginning of image making is intentional misdirection

Books do lie

and now we add in Photoshop and digital untruth in many online images we see, others some post in such low rez the image is mud

I still cannot get much REAL info on Gas Burst from members, so I do it my way

'show and tell'

Kindergarten competition

[m00dawg]

This was interesting and along the same lines of this discussion, I think.
https://youtu.be/tbh3qQUXdzU

Aha! I was trying to find where I saw someone doing reversal for plates and I think this was it. Super interesting!

[Tin Can]

My order of J Lane asa 25 black 8X10 glass just arrived

Most likely not to be used until mid summer

Thanks Jason

[m00dawg]

Woo that's awesome though! Hope you can share results, even if it's a ways off!

[m00dawg]

Been thinking about this while waiting for the monobath and dry plate holder (so I can stop using the Graflex one with a bunch of gaffer tape all over it ;) ). For creating a positive in the field, if the ambrotype method doesn't quite pan out, I was thinking perhaps cyanotypes?

At least the time I did cyanotyping (with the sun) the exposure times were long enough not to need an enlarger and short enough to be just a few minutes. I was using pre-coated fabric though and haven't yet tried to coat onto paper yet. The issues here would be a consistent UV light source (or getting really good at estimating the sun) and water for washing.

[dabsond]

I just recently received some of the plates for my 4x5 camera. Maybe this has been brought up before but, could you contact print one plate to another and get a positive? Could a contact print from a normal negative be made on a plate end up in a positive? Just wondering...

[Tin Can]

Yes


I just recently received some of the plates for my 4x5 camera. Maybe this has been brought up before but, could you contact one plate to another and get a positive? Could a contact print from a normal negative be made on a plate end up in a positive? Just wondering...

[urnem57]

A still existing problem, common to many photographers since the beginning of image making is intentional misdirection

Anecdotally, I have been researching photographers and their studios logos from the time when this was the state of the art. Many of them are quite similar to the practicing magicians of the day. So it would make sense to me that each guy would keep his recipe and techniques secret. I would imagine that going to sit in front of a guy with a big box who could then hand you something that was not a painting but a realistic representation of reality. That probably was magic to a lot of people. I still see the same magic I saw as a little kid watching images develop before my very eyes in a tray. Good stuff.

[Nodda Duma]

Wall laments in his book on emulsion-making the commercialization of dry plates and the end of the era of amateur dry plate makers freely exchanging information. R&D moved behind closed doors with the commercialization of dry plate making.

[urnem57]

Interesting. So it was more of a “Trade secret” type of thing? As an aside, I was at Freestyle today. They have a whole display case on the wall dedicated to J. Lane Plates, holders, and accessories for dry plate photography. They are in the process of moving down the street, so the store is kind of pared down a bit. They have been in the same location on Sunset Boulevard for over 50 years.

[Nodda Duma]

That’s awesome. I haven’t been out there on travel close enough to stop in, but that’s cool.

Yes, basically... with commercialization and competition, developments and improvements accelerated (imagine having a fully equipped lab and team of dedicated scientists solving your photography problems vs just you in a basement), but it understandably had to happen behind closed doors. My day job company doesn’t share my cutting-edge optical designs with its competitors, nor are they publicly available for similar obvious reasons.

But..if you know how to look, you can glean bits and pieces, and when a bit of technology was no longer relevant to competition (gold sensitization, for example), then the research would be published.

So really what Wall lamented was years- and decades-delay in openly sharing advances in dry plate and film making.

[urnem57]

It’s great that you share your knowledge freely. Thank you. It inspires me to keep learning.

[ZoltanKarpathy]

I just recently received some of the plates for my 4x5 camera. Maybe this has been brought up before but, could you contact print one plate to another and get a positive? Could a contact print from a normal negative be made on a plate end up in a positive? Just wondering...

I realize this is a bit late, but I don't see it mentioned elsewhere. There is a fellow in Europe who also makes plates. He recently did a video on contact printing two plates to get a positive as you ask. Search for Zebra Dry Plates and you'll find him.... if you haven't already found the video.

[Nodda Duma]

For those interested, dry plate ambrotypes (emulsion coated black glass) are available as a regular product in 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, and 11x14 (other sizes enquire). The developer formula is posted on the product listing, and following the process gives very nicely toned highlights. I’m not set up to make the developer kits, but the chems are available from places such as Bostick & Sullivan or Photographers Formulary.

https://www.pictoriographica.com/store/p17/dryplate_ambrotype.html

We’ve been shooting them at Photo Retro studio (analog photography shop I opened in Amherst NH)

224574

[pound]

i have a video made one year ago on shooting Jason Lane Dry plates on black glass. i still have a few plates left so maybe I will shoot them again.

https://youtu.be/cMua7u-HRnU