Discolored white borders on prints

[Ben Calwell]

Well, I've been having some processing issues in the darkroom. In another thread (from yesterday), I discussed strange gray speckles on the backs of some of my prints along with brownish stains visible when the print is backlit. When backlit, light shines through where the gray specks are.
Today, I rinsed and selenium toned two prints. I mixed fresh toner with distilled water. After washing the prints with the help of Perma-wash, I hung them to dry. As you can see from the attached image, the borders are discolored with some sort of stain. This staining is only visible when the print is backlit.
I use Ilford rapid fix (1 minute). Could this be some sort of selenium-fixer interaction?
My fixer tests as good using hypo check.
One of the prints from today had the gray speckles on the back, but the other didn't. Both, however, have the stained white borders. Some of this staining is probably into the image area, although I cannot see it.
I thought perhaps my selenium toner might be dirty, as I tend to re-use it again and again. I mixed fresh today with distilled water, but still see the staining.
After a 5 minute rinse, followed by Perma-wash, I washed both prints for 15 minutes in running water, shuffling them and dumping the tray at frequent intervals.
Before toning, I held the wet prints up to the light and did not see any staining. So the toning must be causing something -- right?
Sorry to be so wordy, but it's hard to describe what's going on without rambling on.212639

[Renato Tonelli]

I think you're right in thinking that it's the toning causing the stain; I had the same experience a few years ago. Not sure what's causing the speckles.

This is the sequence I now use to prevent the Selenium from staining (Ilford FB paper) - it is taken whole from an excellent book on printing by Carson Graves:

After the fixer:

Wash for 10 minutes
Perma Wash for 3 minutes
Selenium Toner (distilled water) for -3-5 minutes
Perma Wash for 5 minutes
Rinse in running water for 30 secs.
Wash for 45 minutes

This is a lengthy sequence and I sometimes shorten it this way:

After the fixer:

Was for 10 minutes
Tone in a bath of Selenium/Perma Wash (distilled water) for 5 minutes
Rinse for 30 secs.
Wash for 45 minutes.

The downside to this Selenium/Perma Wash bath is that Perma Wash does not last indefinitely.

https://www.routledge.com/Elements-of-Black-and-White-Printing/Graves/p/book/9780240803128

[LabRat]

In practice, grey on prints is usually a fixer issue, as when fixer is loaded up to capacity, free silver can build up as dark grey soot like fine particles... (Think the color of an old lab fixer tank/tray...) Eben when cleaned, can be contaminated...

Try new fix after vessels have been cleaned with tray cleaner...

Steve K

[Doremus Scudder]

Ben,

Basically, two things cause this kind of staining (i.e., selenium toner stains). 1. trying to tone prints that are inadequately fixed and 2. transferring prints from an acid solution directly to the toner.

Are you transferring the prints directly from the fixer to the toner? If so, Ilford Rapid Fixer at the 1+4 dilution may be too acid, thereby causing stains. If this is indeed the culprit, you have two solutions: 1. wash prints thoroughly before toning. 2. Use a less-acidic fix before toning. I use the weaker 1+9 dilution immediately before toning as fixing bath two.

If that's not your problem, then the fix is, so make sure your fix is really doing its job. Hypo-check is totally inadequate for the job of testing fixer for fiber-base prints processed for optimum permanence. It's better to use fresh fix and use throughput for a guide. Use two-bath fixation and fix no more than 35-40 8x10s per liter of bath one.

If you're not using two-bath fixation, your fixer capacity is really low; no more than 10 8x10s per liter for optimum permanence.

You can transfer prints from bath two directly to the toner if the fixer is not too acidic, as noted above. You can use an alkaline fix for bath two, but I've had great results for years with good old Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer at the 1+9 dilution.

A final thought; what paper and developer are you using? I had staining problems with Liquidol and Adox MC-110. That wouldn't be your combination, would it?

Hope you find your problem,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Ben,

Basically, two things cause this kind of staining (i.e., selenium toner stains). 1. trying to tone prints that are inadequately fixed and 2. transferring prints from an acid solution directly to the toner.

Are you transferring the prints directly from the fixer to the toner? If so, Ilford Rapid Fixer at the 1+4 dilution may be too acid, thereby causing stains. If this is indeed the culprit, you have two solutions: 1. wash prints thoroughly before toning. 2. Use a less-acidic fix before toning. I use the weaker 1+9 dilution immediately before toning as fixing bath two.

If that's not your problem, then the fix is, so make sure your fix is really doing its job. Hypo-check is totally inadequate for the job of testing fixer for fiber-base prints processed for optimum permanence. It's better to use fresh fix and use throughput for a guide. Use two-bath fixation and fix no more than 35-40 8x10s per liter of bath one.

If you're not using two-bath fixation, your fixer capacity is really low; no more than 10 8x10s per liter for optimum permanence.

You can transfer prints from bath two directly to the toner if the fixer is not too acidic, as noted above. You can use an alkaline fix for bath two, but I've had great results for years with good old Ilford Hypam or Rapid Fixer at the 1+9 dilution.

A final thought; what paper and developer are you using? I had staining problems with Liquidol and Adox MC-110. That wouldn't be your combination, would it?

Hope you find your problem,

Doremus

Doremus,
Thanks for the input. No, I'm not going directly from the Ilford Rapid Fix to the toner. After fixing, I rinse/wash the prints for 5 to 10 minutes in running water, shuffling and dumping the water and refilling, etc.
After that -- and it might be the next day -- I soak them and then put them into the selenium toner.
I use a single fix bath (1+4), and you're right, inadequate fixation is probably my problem. But I don't make high volumes of prints -- maybe two or three (not including multiple test strips) in one session. So I'm assuming my single-bath fix (1+4) remains good for multiple darkroom sessions. I store it in a brown glass bottle and check it with Hypo Check.
So it must be inadequate fixation. As per Ilford's direction, I fix prints for 1 minute.
I would have never noticed this problem if not for accidentally viewing the prints with back light. They look fine under normal, from above, illumination.
Is there a better way to check the fix's strength? And I guess I need to start using a two bath fix? Don't have a lot of room in my sink for multiple trays, though.
Thanks to everyone for advice -- much appreciated.

[Ben Calwell]

Forgot to mention -- I'm using Ilford Multigrade Classic and Multigrade paper developer. As well as Ilford stop and Ilford rapid fixer. Thanks again!

[Doremus Scudder]

Ben,

I'm placing my money on inadequate fixation then. If not that, then inadequate washing before toning; maybe 5-10 minutes isn't enough.

Maybe my workflow will help you, since yours seems similar already.

During my "printing" sessions, I develop, stop and give fix 1 (Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 for 1.5-2 minutes). I then wash (60 minutes in a slot-type washer) and dry the prints. Those that make the final cut after that get collected over time and go to a toning session.

During my "toning" session, I soak the prints and give them fix 2, which is always freshly-mixed before the session (again, Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9). Prints then go from fix 2 directly to the toning bath. After the desired amount of toning has been reached, the prints go directly to a hypo-clearing bath (mixed from scratch; sodium sulfite and bisulfite). From there, a quick rinse and into the washer. I don't worry about going directly to the hypo-clearing bath, although the carried-over toner does diminish the capacity. I have lots of sulfite and bisulfite on hand and can mix more easily; having the extra tray and step would be a lot more of a hassle.

Two things I really recommend.
First is two-bath fixing. By mixing the second bath fresh and keeping the throughput low, you are always ensured of well-fixed prints (more later).
Second is not trusting the Ilford short-fix sequence. In theory, using strong fix for a short time should fix the emulsion without letting fixer soak into the paper base and thereby shorten wash times. I imagine if I were working with one-bath fixation (and the small capacity it requires) and small prints, it would work fine. In practice, however, keeping the fix fresh enough (only 10 8x10s per liter, remember) and the fixing time to just 60 seconds is difficult for me. Heck, a 16x20 print takes 20+ seconds to drain completely - do I include that time in the total fixing time? Or not? Fixing longer than the 60 seconds lets the paper base get saturated with fixer, which requires a longer wash time. I'm happy to wash longer :)

Still, if you want to try, here's Ilford's optimum permanence sequence: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/
Note that they give a separate sequence for selenium toner (scroll down a bit) and that they transfer directly from fixer to toner without an intermediate rinse. Note also that the wash time is rather long; 30 minutes.

Finally, a word about fixer longevity. If you use Rapid Fixer one bath and want to process for optimum permanence, 10 8x10s per liter is your limit. For "commercial" standards, Ilford says 40 8x10s per liter. With a two-bath regime (either 1+4 or 1+9) the capacity is increased: 35-40 8x10s per liter of bath one (remember, there's a bath two as well, so overall it's about 20 8x10s per liter for the whole thing). That's throughput; keep count of your prints (and test strips, etc.) and forget the hypo-check; it's not nearly sensitive enough for print fixer (barely enough for film fixer). And, keep track of how long you keep your fix. It will last 7 days in an open tray, one month in a partly-full bottle and six months in a full, tightly-capped bottle. I rarely keep fix around for 30 days...

With two-bath fixation, after you run 35-40 prints through bath two, you can turn around and use it for bath one for the next printing session. That makes it even more economical.

FWIW, I've been using the above regime for 30+ years and never have a stained print...

Hope this helps,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Ben,

I'm placing my money on inadequate fixation then. If not that, then inadequate washing before toning; maybe 5-10 minutes isn't enough.

Maybe my workflow will help you, since yours seems similar already.

During my "printing" sessions, I develop, stop and give fix 1 (Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9 for 1.5-2 minutes). I then wash (60 minutes in a slot-type washer) and dry the prints. Those that make the final cut after that get collected over time and go to a toning session.

During my "toning" session, I soak the prints and give them fix 2, which is always freshly-mixed before the session (again, Ilford Rapid Fixer 1+9). Prints then go from fix 2 directly to the toning bath. After the desired amount of toning has been reached, the prints go directly to a hypo-clearing bath (mixed from scratch; sodium sulfite and bisulfite). From there, a quick rinse and into the washer. I don't worry about going directly to the hypo-clearing bath, although the carried-over toner does diminish the capacity. I have lots of sulfite and bisulfite on hand and can mix more easily; having the extra tray and step would be a lot more of a hassle.

Two things I really recommend.
First is two-bath fixing. By mixing the second bath fresh and keeping the throughput low, you are always ensured of well-fixed prints (more later).
Second is not trusting the Ilford short-fix sequence. In theory, using strong fix for a short time should fix the emulsion without letting fixer soak into the paper base and thereby shorten wash times. I imagine if I were working with one-bath fixation (and the small capacity it requires) and small prints, it would work fine. In practice, however, keeping the fix fresh enough (only 10 8x10s per liter, remember) and the fixing time to just 60 seconds is difficult for me. Heck, a 16x20 print takes 20+ seconds to drain completely - do I include that time in the total fixing time? Or not? Fixing longer than the 60 seconds lets the paper base get saturated with fixer, which requires a longer wash time. I'm happy to wash longer :)

Still, if you want to try, here's Ilford's optimum permanence sequence: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/ilford-optimum-permanance-wash-sequence-fb-papers/
Note that they give a separate sequence for selenium toner (scroll down a bit) and that they transfer directly from fixer to toner without an intermediate rinse. Note also that the wash time is rather long; 30 minutes.

Finally, a word about fixer longevity. If you use Rapid Fixer one bath and want to process for optimum permanence, 10 8x10s per liter is your limit. For "commercial" standards, Ilford says 40 8x10s per liter. With a two-bath regime (either 1+4 or 1+9) the capacity is increased: 35-40 8x10s per liter of bath one (remember, there's a bath two as well, so overall it's about 20 8x10s per liter for the whole thing). That's throughput; keep count of your prints (and test strips, etc.) and forget the hypo-check; it's not nearly sensitive enough for print fixer (barely enough for film fixer). And, keep track of how long you keep your fix. It will last 7 days in an open tray, one month in a partly-full bottle and six months in a full, tightly-capped bottle. I rarely keep fix around for 30 days...

With two-bath fixation, after you run 35-40 prints through bath two, you can turn around and use it for bath one for the next printing session. That makes it even more economical.

FWIW, I've been using the above regime for 30+ years and never have a stained print...

Hope this helps,

Doremus


Doremus,
Thank you — I really appreciate it.
So my problem is more likely to be inadequate fixing, ie, weak or exhausted fixer. And this, therefore, causes the print to stain when toned in selenium?
Or inadequate washing, or both?
I’m not a prolific printer, only doing a few 8x10s during a typical darkroom session. Based on your advice, then, if I want to stick with a single-bath fix, I need to really limit the bath to no more than 10 8x10s. And 1 minute ( per Ilford’s instructions) should be okay, if I don’t exceed that 10-print limit?
I’ve been using Hypo Check for a long time, blissfully thinking if it didn’t turn cloudy, then the fix was good.
After toning, I use Heico Perma-wash for five minutes, followed by the wash cycle in an 11x14 tray, shuffling, dumping, etc. if I had a slot-type print washer, it would make life easier.
Anyway, I appreciate your detailed response. I’ll mix up some fresh fixer next time and see if that cures the stained borders.

[LabRat]

For DWFB, if you are using a rapid type fix, you can use the film dilution for prints for 30 seconds, and this is helpful for archival conservation as the image completely is fixed, but much less time to start soaking into paper base, so washes better...

You still need to follow the bath capacity of 10 prints per bath...

Steve K

[Michael R]

This is strange. Considering Ben's stated throughput, as long as temperature is ok and there is agitation during fixing, 1 minute in Ilford Rapid Fix 1+4 should be fine, so I'm puzzled.

I wonder if Perma Wash could be a factor somehow. Perma Wash is not exactly a hypo clearing agent, so it might be a variable to consider.

[Ben Calwell]

This is strange. Considering Ben's stated throughput, as long as temperature is ok and there is agitation during fixing, 1 minute in Ilford Rapid Fix 1+4 should be fine, so I'm puzzled.

I wonder if Perma Wash could be a factor somehow. Perma Wash is not exactly a hypo clearing agent, so it might be a variable to consider.

Thanks -- I'm puzzled, too. I just checked my jar of mixed (1:4) Ilford Rapid Fix that I've been using for several darkroom sessions with a strip of unexposed film, and it cleared in 1 minute, but with a magenta tint. As per Doremus's advice, tomorrow I'm going to print with a batch of fresh as a daisy fixer and see if the staining occurs again.
If the staining keeps reoccurring, perhaps I'll just give up on selenium toning. But I do like the effect it gives to prints.
As I mentioned earlier, I would have never noticed the staining had I not accidentally held a print up to light so that it's backlit. Viewed under normal lighting, the staining is invisible.

[Ben Calwell]

I've also been in contact via email with Ilford support. I sent them photos of the mysterious gray specks on the backs of some prints, as well as images of the staining. The gray specks tend to disappear when the print has dried. But when held up to light, you can see how the light comes through where the now-invisible specks were. Weird, I know. The gray specks don't show up on every print -- just some of them.

[Doremus Scudder]

Doremus,
Thank you — I really appreciate it.
So my problem is more likely to be inadequate fixing, ie, weak or exhausted fixer. And this, therefore, causes the print to stain when toned in selenium?
Or inadequate washing, or both?

Yes. You won't know which till you test.




I’m not a prolific printer, only doing a few 8x10s during a typical darkroom session. Based on your advice, then, if I want to stick with a single-bath fix, I need to really limit the bath to no more than 10 8x10s. And 1 minute ( per Ilford’s instructions) should be okay, if I don’t exceed that 10-print limit?

Yes, if you want to fix to Ilford's standard for optimum permanence. As I mentioned, Ilford also gives a standard for "commercial" use; the capacity for a liter of fixer at that standard is 40 8x10s.

Fixing more than 10 prints per liter may not make a difference in toning. You'll have to test... Personally, I like my prints to be fixed really well, so I just don't skimp on the fix, discarding it at well before capacity and using two-bath fixation. Still, for a low-volume situation such as yours, a one-bath regime will work fine as long as you don't exceed capacity. Certainly, the first few prints through fresh fixer are well fixed, so test those and see if you get stains. If so, it's not the fixer.

You can test the 1+4 dilution at one minute maximum fixing time, as Ilford recommends, also. Fix a print for one minute, fix another for longer and see if it makes any difference (you'll have to wash the second print longer).



I’ve been using Hypo Check for a long time, blissfully thinking if it didn’t turn cloudy, then the fix was good.
After toning, I use Heico Perma-wash for five minutes, followed by the wash cycle in an 11x14 tray, shuffling, dumping, etc. if I had a slot-type print washer, it would make life easier. ...

As mentioned, Hypo-Check just isn't up to the task of testing fixers for paper where optimum permanence is the goal. The allowable amount of dissolved silver in such a fixer is too low, even after capacity has been exceeded, for the Hypo-Check test to detect. Using throughput as a guide and then testing for residual silver on the prints themselves with Kodak ST-1 or the Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner test is much more accurate.

FWIW, since you have selenium toner around, here's how to test for residual silver with that:

Mix a test solution of KRST at 1+9 (or stronger; I often just use a drop of the concentrate; results are the same).
1. Place a drop of the test solution on the border of the (well-washed) print to be tested (or in the center of a piece of paper with no image on it that you've fixed and washed)
2. Leave the drop there for three minutes, then rinse.
3. Any stain other than a very faint cream color indicates inadequate fixation.

Your Perma Wash may be the problem too, see below. I've never trusted the stuff. Again, a test with regular HCA or just a sodium sulfite solution in place of the Perma Wash for a print or two to see if there's any difference would be in order. My recipe for wash aid: 1 Tbsp. sodium sulfite and a pinch of sodium bisulfite (or metabisulfite) per liter.


This is strange. Considering Ben's stated throughput, as long as temperature is ok and there is agitation during fixing, 1 minute in Ilford Rapid Fix 1+4 should be fine, so I'm puzzled.

I wonder if Perma Wash could be a factor somehow. Perma Wash is not exactly a hypo clearing agent, so it might be a variable to consider.

Michael,
I'm curious how you arrive at the 30-second fixing time that you mention... Ilford recommends one minute. I really don't see how 30 seconds, even in a "film-strength" fixer will do the job...

Best,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Thanks again, Doremus. I'm going to try the KRST test on a print and see what happens.

[Michael R]

Michael,
I'm curious how you arrive at the 30-second fixing time that you mention... Ilford recommends one minute. I really don't see how 30 seconds, even in a "film-strength" fixer will do the job...

Best,

Doremus

Hi Doremus,

I think it was LabRat who mentioned a 30 second fix time. I’ve always followed Ilford’s instructions and done 1 minute.

If I remember correctly, when Ilford was doing this research they found 30 seconds was actually enough, but that reducing the fixing time from 1 minute to 30 seconds did not reduce wash times substantially further. Given these diminishing marginal returns regarding wash efficiency, it therefore made more sense to recommend the longer fixing time, which effectively includes a “safety factor” against underfixing.

[tundra]

Most typically, this is caused by insufficient wash after fix. After you fix for 1 min in the Ilford rapid fixer, wash for 5 minutes, THEN Permawash, THEN tone, then do a final wash - I do it in a low rate eco washer for 60 min.

(if you use tongs, marks can also be cause by dirty tong tips.)

[Ben Calwell]

Most typically, this is caused by insufficient wash after fix. After you fix for 1 min in the Ilford rapid fixer, wash for 5 minutes, THEN Permawash, THEN tone, then do a final wash - I do it in a low rate eco washer for 60 min.

(if you use tongs, marks can also be cause by dirty tong tips.)

Thanks — I do the 5 minute wash after fix, but then I go into the toner. After toning, I rinse them again for 5 to 10 minutes and then Perma Wash, followed by washing in a tray with running water, shuffling, dumping and losing my mind at the tedium.

[Doremus Scudder]

Hi Doremus,

I think it was LabRat who mentioned a 30 second fix time. I’ve always followed Ilford’s instructions and done 1 minute.

If I remember correctly, when Ilford was doing this research they found 30 seconds was actually enough, but that reducing the fixing time from 1 minute to 30 seconds did not reduce wash times substantially further. Given these diminishing marginal returns regarding wash efficiency, it therefore made more sense to recommend the longer fixing time, which effectively includes a “safety factor” against underfixing.

Michael,

Thanks for answering anyway :) Sorry I confused you with LabRat. Actually, I quoted the wrong post and didn't read it, just looked at the name; I meant to quote LabRat.

Best,

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

Thanks — I do the 5 minute wash after fix, but then I go into the toner. After toning, I rinse them again for 5 to 10 minutes and then Perma Wash, followed by washing in a tray with running water, shuffling, dumping and losing my mind at the tedium.

Ben,

The consensus seems to be either no wash before the toner, i.e., transfer directly from fix to toner, or wash thoroughly before toning, i.e., probably more than five or 10 minutes, if you want to avoid stains.

That's why I transfer directly from fix to toner; I don't need to wait for the extra step.

Best,

Doremus

[LabRat]

My "bible" for this was "Life of the print" by Keefer and Inch by Light Impressions Press... An excellent, well researched compendium for the pro conservator crowd & users...

Excellent reference...

Steve K

[Ben Calwell]

Ben,

The consensus seems to be either no wash before the toner, i.e., transfer directly from fix to toner, or wash thoroughly before toning, i.e., probably more than five or 10 minutes, if you want to avoid stains.

That's why I transfer directly from fix to toner; I don't need to wait for the extra step.

Best,

Doremus

Thank you,
But aside from the no-wash or do-wash before toner, the staining is caused by inadequate, ie, weak, exhausted fix, no? So if I have a tray of fresh, robust fixer, there should be no staining, regardless of whether I wash before toning, or go straight into the toner without a wash or rinse. Do I understand correctly?
In other words, I could wash a print for 1 or 2 hours, but if it wasn’t properly fixed to begin with, I’ll see stains, correct?

[Doremus Scudder]

Thank you,
But aside from the no-wash or do-wash before toner, the staining is caused by inadequate, ie, weak, exhausted fix, no? So if I have a tray of fresh, robust fixer, there should be no staining, regardless of whether I wash before toning, or go straight into the toner without a wash or rinse. Do I understand correctly?
In other words, I could wash a print for 1 or 2 hours, but if it wasn’t properly fixed to begin with, I’ll see stains, correct?

Exactly right!

Remember that you can use selenium toner as a test for adequate fixing. If the print is not fixed well enough, a stain will result. The same with general toning.

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Exactly right!

Remember that you can use selenium toner as a test for adequate fixing. If the print is not fixed well enough, a stain will result. The same with general toning.

Doremus

Thank you, sir. I did try the selenium test on a print yesterday, and yes, it did leave a light tan/brown color. This morning I made some prints with fresh fix. Washed them thoroughly for 15 minutes, and they are now drying. Tomorrow, I’ll try toning one with no second fix and one with a second fix (in fresh fix) and see what happens.
The issue I’m having with the mysterious gray specks on the backs of some prints cropped up again this morning on one of the prints. Can’t figure out what’s causing that. The specks disappear after the print dries.
Thanks again, Doremus. Send me a bill for your consultation fees.

[Ben Calwell]

Well, my staining problem continues. Even with fresh fixer, I'm still getting stained borders following selenium toning. I made three prints yesterday, fixing each one in a tray of fresh Ilford Rapid Fix at 1+4 dilution (for me 6 ounces of fix into 30 ounces of water) for 1 minute (per Ilford instructions) at 68 degrees F .
This morning I toned them, but gave two of the prints a second fresh fix bath at a weaker 1+9 dilution before toning. All three prints have the yellowish, nicotine-looking stains (when backlit) on the white print borders. The two prints that received a second fix bath have much less stain than before, but it's definitely there. The print that did not get the second fix bath looks the worse.
Prior to toning, all three prints had clean, white borders -- no trace of brown stains.
After toning, all three prints were rinsed thoroughly for 15 minutes, followed by 10 minutes in perma-wash followed by a 30 minute wash in running water in a tray, with constant shuffling and dumping of water.
My toner is freshly mixed with distilled water.
I'm stumped. The prints look fine under normal illumination, but when you hold them up to light, the brown stains are there. If the prints are getting adequate fixation, what is causing the staining when I tone them?
I may have to start skipping selenium toning, but I would hate to have to do that.

[Doremus Scudder]

Well, Ben, the plot thickens...

Possibilities:

So, are you still washing before the toning? May it still isn't enough. Or, maybe the Perma Wash is getting in the way. Fixing should be adequate, especially with two baths of fresh fix. (Do, however, check your fixer concentrate for a sulfur smell and look for particles floating in it. Fixer will precipitate sulfur when it goes bad. You did a clip test, right? So the fix should be good. Anyway...

Things to try.
1. Forget the intermediate wash. Transfer your prints directly from the second fix to the toner. That's what I do, never had a problem.
2. Eliminate the Perma Wash. Personally, I don't trust the stuff. It's different than Kodak HCA and the Ilford Wash Aid and may be interfering with the toning. Also, there is absolutely no need to use Perma Wash before toning (if you are; I'm not sure) since you're going to give a final wash after toning anyway. So try a print or two without any Perma Wash at all (and just wash a bit longer) and then try one or two with Perma Wash before the final wash, but after the toning. If the Perma Wash ends up being the culprit, switch to HCA or mix your own wash aid as I detailed above (it's really easy and more economical).

I really can't think of much else...

Best,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Well, Ben, the plot thickens...

Possibilities:

So, are you still washing before the toning? May it still isn't enough. Or, maybe the Perma Wash is getting in the way. Fixing should be adequate, especially with two baths of fresh fix. (Do, however, check your fixer concentrate for a sulfur smell and look for particles floating in it. Fixer will precipitate sulfur when it goes bad. You did a clip test, right? So the fix should be good. Anyway...

Things to try.
1. Forget the intermediate wash. Transfer your prints directly from the second fix to the toner. That's what I do, never had a problem.
2. Eliminate the Perma Wash. Personally, I don't trust the stuff. It's different than Kodak HCA and the Ilford Wash Aid and may be interfering with the toning. Also, there is absolutely no need to use Perma Wash before toning (if you are; I'm not sure) since you're going to give a final wash after toning anyway. So try a print or two without any Perma Wash at all (and just wash a bit longer) and then try one or two with Perma Wash before the final wash, but after the toning. If the Perma Wash ends up being the culprit, switch to HCA or mix your own wash aid as I detailed above (it's really easy and more economical).

I really can't think of much else...

Best,

Doremus

Hi Doremus,
Yes, I washed the prints for 15 minutes yesterday evening (after fixing) and hung them to dry. The borders were nice and clean this morning prior to toning.
Before toning this morning, I soaked the prints in water. From there, one print went directly into the toner, while the other two went into a second fix before toning. I’m not using Perma-wash before toning. I use it after toning, prior to the main, long wash.
I’ll switch to Ilford wash aid and see if that makes a difference.
It is puzzling. Sadly, before I realized this was happening, I made about 40 mounted and matted 8x10s. They look great (to the best of my ability), but now I have the gnawing knowledge that many of them are destined to deteriorate. I could offer them at greatly reduced prices, with a disclaimer on the back.
Thanks again for your help on this.

[Michael R]

What specific paper is this?

I might not be following correctly, so apologies in advance... I would say that washing only partially after fixing, before then letting the print dry, is not a good idea.

How old is the fixer concentrate? Does it smell like acid or rotten eggs? What kind of selenium toner is it? How old is the concentrate? Does it have an ammonia odour?

If you can rule out bad chemicals (fixer and toner), I suggest the following experiment (I can't suggest exact times since I don't know what paper it is).

All temperatures (running water, toner, HCA) should be around 68F (better a little warmer than colder)

1. Process a print or even as normal, including 1 minute fixing in fresh 1+4 Ilford Rapid Fix at 68F with agitation
2. Give the print a full wash for the required time (longer in running water, or use the Ilford sequence with HCA, which is 5 minutes in fresh running water (at ~68F), followed by 10 minutes in HCA with agitation at 68F, followed by 5-10 minutes in fresh running water at ~68F. HCA should be either Ilford Washaid or Kodak HCA or make your own.
3. Either dry the print overnight or continue to step 5
4. If you dried the print overnight, soak it for 5 minutes in fresh water (~68F)
5. Working strength toner
6. Full wash in running water or post-toner Ilford sequence (5 minutes in fresh running water (at ~68F), followed by 10 minutes in Ilford Washaid or Kodak HCA with agitation at 68F, followed by at least 30 minutes in fresh running water at ~68F).

[Drew Wiley]

Looks like insufficient fixing to me, when the edge or corner of a print rises and is not fully immersed long enough. Otherwise, ditto what Doremus said. But I always use TF4 fixer one shot, which saves a lot of time and fuss, and washes out easier, but is more expensive.

[Paul Ron]

how old is your psper?

i once had a similar problem with old paper. turned out it was fog, not development problems at all. a new box of paper in that same session all came out perfect.

[Ben Calwell]

Thanks all. Paper (Ilford Multigrade Classic) is new. Using fresh fix for recommended time. I keep prints totally submerged and agitated in fix. Selenium toner freshly mixed with distilled water. I follow Ilford’s wash regimen, going beyond their recommended wash times.
My original problem was running too many sheets through fixer tray— I was relying on Hypo Check drops to keep tabs on fixer strength. But even with robust new fixer at recommended times, the staining occurs with selenium toning (mixed fresh).
Is there a way to reverse the damage after toning to get rid of stains (which are not visible unless print it backlit)?
I trim the borders off when dry mounting, and the images look fine. But I’m sure the staining must encroach on the image, but I can’t see it. But I know the photo is flawed and will not last a long time.

[Robert Bowring]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think mixing 6 oz. fixer with 30 oz. of water is a ratio of 1 to 5 not 1 to 4. A 1 to 4 ratio would be 6 oz. fixer with 24 oz. of water. Maybe your fixer is not strong enough. The Ilford fixer bottle says 500ml of fixer will make 2.5 liters of working solution at a ratio of 1 to 4 (500ml to 2000ml= 2.5 liters). That is the way I mix it.

[Doremus Scudder]

...
6. Full wash in running water or post-toner Ilford sequence (5 minutes in fresh running water (at ~68F), followed by 10 minutes in Ilford Washaid or Kodak HCA with agitation at 68F, followed by at least [how many?] minutes in fresh running water at ~68F).

Michael,

Seems you left out the final wash time :) Just to clarify:

Ilford recommends 30 minutes minimum after toning and a 10-minute treatment in wash aid.
Kodak recommends minimum 20 minutes wash after a three-minute treatment in HCA.

I like 60 minutes, personally...

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

Correct me if I am wrong but I think mixing 6 oz. fixer with 30 oz. of water is a ratio of 1 to 5 not 1 to 4. A 1 to 4 ratio would be 6 oz. fixer with 24 oz. of water. Maybe your fixer is not strong enough. The Ilford fixer bottle says 500ml of fixer will make 2.5 liters of working solution at a ratio of 1 to 4 (500ml to 2000ml= 2.5 liters). That is the way I mix it.

I think Ben means 6 oz. fixer concentrate in 30 oz. total of working-strength fixer, at least he should :) That is 6 + 24 = 30, which is 1 part in 5, and the standard 1+4 dilution.

At any rate, fixer works fine at a 1+9 dilution with a slight extension of fixing time, so the 1+5 dilution, even if that's what Ben is using, shouldn't make a huge difference, especially since Ilford has worked in a fairly generous safety factor in the fixing time (according to Michael).

Best,

Doremus

[Doremus Scudder]

Thanks all. Paper (Ilford Multigrade Classic) is new. Using fresh fix for recommended time. I keep prints totally submerged and agitated in fix. Selenium toner freshly mixed with distilled water. I follow Ilford’s wash regimen, going beyond their recommended wash times.
My original problem was running too many sheets through fixer tray— I was relying on Hypo Check drops to keep tabs on fixer strength. But even with robust new fixer at recommended times, the staining occurs with selenium toning (mixed fresh).
Is there a way to reverse the damage after toning to get rid of stains (which are not visible unless print it backlit)?
I trim the borders off when dry mounting, and the images look fine. But I’m sure the staining must encroach on the image, but I can’t see it. But I know the photo is flawed and will not last a long time.

Ben,

It seems the only possible remaining culprit is the Perma Wash. Ditch that and see what happens. If you still get stains, we'll have to start over examining all the elements once again.

One last random thought: What does your developer tray look like? If you've got a lot of silver sludge built up on the developer tray, maybe some of it is getting transferred to the back of the print during development. Since some of that may be reduced somewhat (i.e., not in halide form), maybe it is not getting fixed out and then toning along with the image silver when you tone. Try a clean tray too. I know this is a long shot, especially since some photographers' developing trays are black as the ace of spades, but eliminating every possibility isn't a bad idea...

Doremus

[Michael R]

Michael,

Seems you left out the final wash time :) Just to clarify:

Ilford recommends 30 minutes minimum after toning and a 10-minute treatment in wash aid.
Kodak recommends minimum 20 minutes wash after a three-minute treatment in HCA.

I like 60 minutes, personally...

Doremus

Thanks - just fixed my earlier post. I put 30 minutes (Ilford) but I personally go longer.

I really hope Ben can figure this out. It's very strange.

[John Layton]

Have not read this whole thread...but just to throw a curveball - what about your easel blades/hold downs? Are they painted, smooth, clean, rust-free? Just wonderin'.

[Ben Calwell]

Appreciate the responses. I was a strong “D” student in math. So yes, I think I got my 1+4 dilution messed up. I added 6oz of fix to 30oz water. Should have added 6 oz to 24 oz water. Still strong enough though, I think. I’ll ditch the Permawash and see what happens. Today, I used a clean developer tray. That might be a factor. And John, that’s a good point. My easel is fairly new and free of rust. I appreciate all the helpful advice. In all likelihood, though, my prints will wind up in a landfill some day and not on Antiques Roadshow.

[Robert Bowring]

Could there possibly be some sort of defect in the paper itself? Have you tried paper from a different package? Maybe you just got some defective paper somehow.

[Ben Calwell]

Could there possibly be some sort of defect in the paper itself? Have you tried paper from a different package? Maybe you just got some defective paper somehow.

Thanks, Robert. Still working my way through a 100-sheet box of Ilford Multigrade Classic. It’s the only paper I have on hand at the moment. I’ve also been corresponding with Ilford tech support about this. I sent them the batch number from the box in the event it’s a paper issue.

[Ben Calwell]

The stained photo borders saga continues:
Here's a photo of the stained border on a print that received 2 fresh fixer baths, followed by a rinse and 1 hour of washing in a tray with, shuffling, dumping and refilling the tray throughout. This time, at the suggestion of a forum member, I eliminated the Heico Permawash to see if that is the culprit. But the staining is still there.
Prior to toning, the borders were clean. The selenium toner was mixed fresh 2 days ago using distilled water. If the prints received adequate fixation, then why do they stain after being toned in selenium? As I mentioned, the borders were clean prior to toning.
Again, the staining isn't visible unless there is light shining through from behind. I was thinking that if there was a problem with my city's water supply, the borders would be stained prior to toning.
I think Doremus suggested skipping the Permawash, but the staining is still there. And that's after 1 hour of washing.
The prints received 2 fresh fixing baths in 1+4 rapid fix, along with a long wash time.
I'm at a loss.
212873

[Michael R]

This is all very strange. When did you buy the toner? I may have asked already but is it Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Not that this should really matter.

I’m having a little trouble figuring out what’s going on in the image you posted. I guess we are looking at the white border, and it does look stained, but there also seems to be a pattern of dark lines/squares along with it. What is that?

One additional experiment I can think of trying is to repeat the entire procedure with a) unexposed, undeveloped sheet (just go right from the paper box into fresh fix). And then b) unexposed, developed sheet


The stained photo borders saga continues:
Here's a photo of the stained border on a print that received 2 fresh fixer baths, followed by a rinse and 1 hour of washing in a tray with, shuffling, dumping and refilling the tray throughout. This time, at the suggestion of a forum member, I eliminated the Heico Permawash to see if that is the culprit. But the staining is still there.
Prior to toning, the borders were clean. The selenium toner was mixed fresh 2 days ago using distilled water. If the prints received adequate fixation, then why do they stain after being toned in selenium? As I mentioned, the borders were clean prior to toning.
Again, the staining isn't visible unless there is light shining through from behind. I was thinking that if there was a problem with my city's water supply, the borders would be stained prior to toning.
I think Doremus suggested skipping the Permawash, but the staining is still there. And that's after 1 hour of washing.
The prints received 2 fresh fixing baths in 1+4 rapid fix, along with a long wash time.
I'm at a loss.
212873

[Ben Calwell]

Hi Michael,
Those straight lines are somehow caused by my easel. That's a crappy iPhone photo, but yes, it's the white border showing the stains. Only visible with light shining through the print. I am using Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner, and it's about two years old. I'll do as you suggest and try an unexposed piece of paper into fresh fix and toner and see what happens. Appreciate the input.

[Ben Calwell]

Before this thread fades into oblivion, one last observation: I just looked at some toned, unmounted prints I made from earlier boxes of Multigrade Classic FB, and the vast majority of them have clean, non-stained white borders when held up to a light. So, I must have gotten lucky with my processing regimen then (from last spring to fall). And I'm still mixing toner from the same bottle of KRST that I was using then. But anyway, moving forward, I have to assume that, as others have advised, that the root problem of what I'm experiencing is inadequate fixation (even though recent tests with 2 fixer baths and a 1-hour wash still causes yellowish stains). I'll just have to keep trying and see what happens.

[Doremus Scudder]

Okay Ben...

Seems we've eliminated lots of the usual suspects, so let's look for some not-so-usual ones :)

Since the emulsion doesn't seem to be affected, I'm thinking that the stain is in the paper base or maybe even in the baryta layer (this latter would be unlikely and definitely a paper defect.

So (just brainstorming):

Can you see the stains on the back of the print? Or do you need through-lighting to see it?

If the stain is easily visible on the back, then...
Are you making sure that the backs of your prints receive as much wash time as the fronts?
Is there any way that the back of the print is getting contaminated?
Could you be getting staining from your developer somehow? (see below).

If you need through-lighting to see the stain, i.e., it's not visible under normal surface lighting from the back or the front, then that means it is "inside" the paper somewhere, e.g., under the emulsion but somehow not on the back surface. If that's the case, try Michael's suggestion of toning unexposed prints, one that's just been fixed and one that's been developed and fixed. If the stains only show up on the developed one, then there's one set of possibilities, if it shows up on the one that was only fixed, then another.

Staining on the developed one would point to some kind of fogging or staining from the developer. Staining on a print that's only been fixed... well, I'd be contacting Ilford about that.

Whatever is going on, it's not normal and somehow, with a different paper batch or whatever, you'll be able to resolve it. So don't give up hope!

FWIW, I've been using more MG Classic these days and have had no such problems. However, I did have some problems with Adox MC-110 and Liquidol together. Somehow the developer stained the emulsion. Something similar might be going on in your case. In my case, however, the staining was visible right away, i.e., when I turned on the light over the fixer tray.

One more question: Is the staining just along the cut edge of the paper? In other words, is it just where solutions could seep into the interior of the paper from the edge. If so, I'd be contacting Ilford and printing with extra-wide borders so I could trim them off later :)

Keep us posted.

Doremus

[Tin Can]

22 years ago my instructor had a huge round cold water washer flowing vast amounts of water 24/7

It was an old building on Lake michigan that most likely never paid for water

He told us to wash for an hour but not more

I still do that with less flow and my water is cheap, but the water exchanges many times in an hour

some never removed their prints and I piled them up like rags

no RC allowed in DR

try a crazy wash

[Ben Calwell]

Okay Ben...

Seems we've eliminated lots of the usual suspects, so let's look for some not-so-usual ones :)

Since the emulsion doesn't seem to be affected, I'm thinking that the stain is in the paper base or maybe even in the baryta layer (this latter would be unlikely and definitely a paper defect.

So (just brainstorming):

Can you see the stains on the back of the print? Or do you need through-lighting to see it?

If the stain is easily visible on the back, then...
Are you making sure that the backs of your prints receive as much wash time as the fronts?
Is there any way that the back of the print is getting contaminated?
Could you be getting staining from your developer somehow? (see below).

If you need through-lighting to see the stain, i.e., it's not visible under normal surface lighting from the back or the front, then that means it is "inside" the paper somewhere, e.g., under the emulsion but somehow not on the back surface. If that's the case, try Michael's suggestion of toning unexposed prints, one that's just been fixed and one that's been developed and fixed. If the stains only show up on the developed one, then there's one set of possibilities, if it shows up on the one that was only fixed, then another.

Staining on the developed one would point to some kind of fogging or staining from the developer. Staining on a print that's only been fixed... well, I'd be contacting Ilford about that.

Whatever is going on, it's not normal and somehow, with a different paper batch or whatever, you'll be able to resolve it. So don't give up hope!

FWIW, I've been using more MG Classic these days and have had no such problems. However, I did have some problems with Adox MC-110 and Liquidol together. Somehow the developer stained the emulsion. Something similar might be going on in your case. In my case, however, the staining was visible right away, i.e., when I turned on the light over the fixer tray.

One more question: Is the staining just along the cut edge of the paper? In other words, is it just where solutions could seep into the interior of the paper from the edge. If so, I'd be contacting Ilford and printing with extra-wide borders so I could trim them off later :)

Keep us posted.

Doremus

Hi Doremus,
The staining is only visible with through-light from behind. Looking at the backs of the prints under normal lighting, they look fine. The staining isn't visible under normal surface lighting. And to my eyes, the staining appears to be just along the edge of the paper. It doesn't look as if the staining bleeds into the image area.
I'll definitely try Michael's suggestion and report back.
Also, I've been communicating with Ilford's technical support about this. I've sent them photos and also the batch number on the paper box. Haven't heard back yet.
Thanks again!

[Doremus Scudder]

Sounds like staining from developer, etc. seeping in to the middle of the paper from the edges now. This would be extremely difficult to wash out.

Can you see any separation/physical damage to the edges of the paper when you use a loupe?

If the staining is confined to the borders, the obvious work-around is to make prints with large borders and trim them off later. Many of us (me included) trim their prints to their final dimensions immediately before dry mounting. I don't know how you present.

I'm curious to hear what Ilford has to say about this. Do keep us posted.

Best,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Sounds like staining from developer, etc. seeping in to the middle of the paper from the edges now. This would be extremely difficult to wash out.

Can you see any separation/physical damage to the edges of the paper when you use a loupe?

If the staining is confined to the borders, the obvious work-around is to make prints with large borders and trim them off later. Many of us (me included) trim their prints to their final dimensions immediately before dry mounting. I don't know how you present.

I'm curious to hear what Ilford has to say about this. Do keep us posted.

Best,

Doremus

Here’s the thing, though: I don’t see the staining before the toning. After fixing and rinsing the prints, I typically hang them up to dry before toning and complete washing the next day. When I shine a light through the dry, but untoned prints the next day, the borders look clean. The stains show up after toning. I do trim the borders off when I dry mount them. I’m hoping that the staining isn’t going into the image area. I can’t really tell because of all the different tones. I’ve switched to a 2 bath fix, and I’m going to keep at it. Also going to try Michael’s suggestion and process a couple of unexposed sheets and see what happens.
Thanks again!

[Ben Calwell]

Can’t see any damage to the paper, but I will check that with a loupe.

[Ben Calwell]

I've just emerged from the darkroom, three-day growth of beard and squinting against the bright light, ready to report an update on my stained photo borders problem. I thank my wife for shoving food under the door.
I'm happy to report that my latest batch of prints are stain-free ... but I don't know why.
The consensus opinion was that inadequate fixing was the cause of the staining (which was only visible when a light was shone through the print). And this was likely true, as I'm pretty sure I was pushing the limits on my single bath fix tray, putting my faith in drops of Hypo-Chek to gauge its strength.
At the urging of forum members, including Doremus, I switched to a two-bath fixation regimen. I also ditched the Heico Perma-wash, as it was suggested that this might be a cause. The batch before last, did the two-fix bath routine (fresh fixer), followed by KRST toning, following by a 1-hour wash with no perma-wash. The result: staining.
On this latest batch that do not have stains, I did two fixing baths. But before the second one, I washed-rinsed the prints for about 15 minutes before putting them into the second Ilford rapid-fix bath (1+9). I also went directly from the second fix bath into the toner.
After the toning, I rinsed them for 5 to 10 minutes, followed by Perma-wash for 5 minutes. I then washed the prints for 20 minutes (I know, I should have gone longer, but I was tired from being on my feet) in a tray with constant running water and constant shuffling and dumping and refilling the tray.
The borders are clean.
The big difference -- and I'm not sure it makes a difference -- is that this time, instead of hanging up the prints to dry after the first fix bath and rinse and then toning them the next day, I proceeded to the second fix and toning in the same darkroom session. I doubt that factors into it.
The only problem (other than mediocre prints) is that the mysterious gray specks re-appeared on the backs of two of the prints. Light shines through where each speck is. The odd thing is, theses specks disappear after the print dries.
At Michael's suggestion, I also processed two sheets of unexposed paper (Multigrade Classic FB). One unexposed sheet went from the box directly into the fix bath, and the other went from the box, into the developer, stop and fix. Both were fixed in two baths and toned. Each was washed as described above. Not sure what this was supposed to reveal, but both sheets are clean, with no staining.
So, moving forward, I'll try to duplicate what I did to produce stain-free prints.
Thanks again for all the help I received on this. Much appreciated.

[Doremus Scudder]

Ben,

Your test with the unexposed sheets shows that the problem is not paper fogging or developer-related issues.

Since you get no stains with an intermediate wash between fix one and two, I'm betting that, without the wash, something is being carried over that causes the staining. So, you want to keep the intermediate wash. You know the saying, "Whatever works."

It also seems that Perma Wash isn't your problem.

A lot of hard work, but now it seems you have a regime that works for you. So keep it!

I imagine that you could wash and dry prints after fix one then soak them before fixing in bath two and toning like I do. I like to collect around 36 prints for a toning session, so I'll print, giving just fix one and washing and drying prints for a few days till I accumulate enough keepers for a toning session. Sounds like that regime would work for you too. I, too, don't think that drying before fix two will make any difference; it seems to be the wash step that you need.

Best,

Doremus

[Ben Calwell]

Ben,

Your test with the unexposed sheets shows that the problem is not paper fogging or developer-related issues.

Since you get no stains with an intermediate wash between fix one and two, I'm betting that, without the wash, something is being carried over that causes the staining. So, you want to keep the intermediate wash. You know the saying, "Whatever works."

It also seems that Perma Wash isn't your problem.

A lot of hard work, but now it seems you have a regime that works for you. So keep it!

I imagine that you could wash and dry prints after fix one then soak them before fixing in bath two and toning like I do. I like to collect around 36 prints for a toning session, so I'll print, giving just fix one and washing and drying prints for a few days till I accumulate enough keepers for a toning session. Sounds like that regime would work for you too. I, too, don't think that drying before fix two will make any difference; it seems to be the wash step that you need.

Best,

Doremus

Thanks, Doremus. I think the wash between fix 1 and 2 is something I’ll keep up. I appreciate all the advice from you and others on the forum. Hopefully, this issue won’t crop up again.

[Michael R]

If you’re going to dry the prints and/or delay toning etc. to sometime later, it is imperative the print receives a full/complete wash after fixing.

I rarely tone prints the day I print them, so basically when they come out of the fix I treat them the same as if they were not destined for toning. A complete final wash.

[Ben Calwell]

If you’re going to dry the prints and/or delay toning etc. to sometime later, it is imperative the print receives a full/complete wash after fixing.

I rarely tone prints the day I print them, so basically when they come out of the fix I treat them the same as if they were not destined for toning. A complete final wash.

Thanks, Michael. Do you give your prints a second fix before toning?

[Michael R]

Thanks, Michael. Do you give your prints a second fix before toning?

No. I’m a pretty “low volume” printer so I keep it simple. Single bath of Ilford Rapid Fix 1+4. Fix for 1 minute, then a complete wash cycle. For me the wash is 10 minutes in running water, then 10 minutes in hypo clearing, then 30 minutes in running water. I typically tone the next day or days later. You definitely don’t want to leave fixer in the paper longer than necessary during processing, so if there is going to be any delay before the final wash, you basically need to do a thorough wash first.

Regarding fixer throughout, for people who do more prints than I do, the standard two-bath method is worth considering.

[Ben Calwell]

No. I’m a pretty “low volume” printer so I keep it simple. Single bath of Ilford Rapid Fix 1+4. Fix for 1 minute, then a complete wash cycle. For me the wash is 10 minutes in running water, then 10 minutes in hypo clearing, then 30 minutes in running water. I typically tone the next day or days later. You definitely don’t want to leave fixer in the paper longer than necessary during processing, so if there is going to be any delay before the final wash, you basically need to do a thorough wash first.

Regarding fixer throughout, for people who do more prints than I do, the standard two-bath method is worth considering.

Michael,
Just so I understand correctly, the wash routine you describe — is that after you’ve toned a print, or before toning?

[Michael R]

Both. If I was going to tone right away I would simply go from the fixer directly into the selenium toner, followed by the wash sequence. But I don’t print and tone at the same time so I have to do the wash twice. My wash sequence at this point is basically the same as Ilford’s recommended sequence following toning (I give 10 minutes for the first rinse instead of Ilford’s 5 minutes, but otherwise it’s the same). Note this is a bit of overkill for a wash without toning (or before toning). Without selenium toning, Ilford’s sequence is significantly shorter, so you could certainly follow that one if you’re going to dry the prints and tone at a later time. Ilford recommends 5 minutes in running water, then 10 minutes in hypo clear, then only 5 minutes in water.

And as always, you don’t need to use hypo clearing agent. Water does as good a job. It just takes longer/more water. I only started using hypo clearing agent about ten years ago. Prior to that it was the plain old fashioned way (60-120 minute wash depending on the paper and toning). When using water alone for washing, Ilford’s Multigrade Classic washes somewhat faster than other FB papers (30-45 minutes according to Ilford).

[Doremus Scudder]

Michael's point about a thorough wash between sessions if you're going to dry your prints in between is important. That's what I do.

My workflow, just FYI:

Printing session: develop, stop, fix 1, wash minimum 60 minutes, dry.

Toning session: soak, fix 2, toner, wash aid, wash minimum 60 minutes, dry.

I use Ilford Rapid Fixer or Hypam (without hardener) at the 1+9 dilution for both sessions. Fixing times are 1.5-2 minutes each bath. My capacity, determined by testing plus a safety/convenience factor, is 36 8x10s per liter of bath one or equivalent.

I'll print for several days, mixing new fix as needed when capacity is reached. When I've collected enough prints for a toning session, I'll mix fresh fix for bath 2. After the toning session, I'll promote that fix to bath 1 for the next printing session if I'm going to continue printing right away.

I test the last print through for both residual silver and hypo using the KRST test and the Kodak HT-2 test respectively.

As I mentioned; I've never had a problem with staining.

The important thing is to find a regime that works well for you and test your prints to make sure that you are fixing and washing adequately.

Best and happy toning,

Doremus