Pyrocat adjustments/improvements

[pkr1979]

Hi all,

So, Ive run my first trial of developing TMax 400 in Pyrocat-M (this is also the first time Ive made and used Pyrocat). And Im not sure what to make of it, and if possible Id like som advise on how to improve the results.

I did as follows in a Jobo at the lowest rotation speed (TMax 400 exposed at 200, 300 and 400 iso shot with a Pentax 67II):

1 - pre soak 5 min
2 - developing | 1+1+100 (8ml + 8ml + 800ml) | 13 min 15 secs | 19,5 - 20 C / 67-68F
3 - wash/stop (plain water) 2 times 30 secs
4 - fix 5 min
5 - wash 8 times 2 min
6 - stab 1 min

Im not an expert when it comes to evaluate negatives, but after scanning (filpped using colorperfect and 2 grade simulation) these negatives Id say
- they lack 'volume' or that they are flat or slightly faded...
- Unsharp (can be caused by lens/aperture/shutter speed, but som other photos I made the same day with the same equipment with Portra 160 are sharp).


212108 212109


When it comes to the negatives themseleves I suspect they might be thin, but again, Im not an expert when it comes to evaluating negatives.

I also developed a roll of TMax 100 (iso 50, 75 and 100) in the same run and I prefer it.


212110 212111


The thing is, Id like to get into carbon printing eventually so I need to figure out how to use TMax 400... is there any way I could make TMax 400 more like TMax 100?

Also... do Pyrocat negs scan differently... I mean, is there anything one needs to be aware of when scanning Pyrocat negs compared to 'regular' negs.

Cheers
Peter

[Alan9940]

I tried Pyrocat-M, once, many years ago and don't remember why I stopped using it. However, I use a lot of Pyrocat-HD and have never seen negs that I'd call "thin" nor ever had any issues with scanning one (I use the ColorPerfect plug-in, too, and process film in Jobo Expert Drums as well as different manual methods.) Is it possible to use a 2:2:100 with Pyrocat-M? I use this dilution with Pyrocat-HD to get beefier negs for pt/pd printing. You will most likely need a stronger dilution to make good negs for carbon printing.

[pkr1979]

Hey and thanks. At least the negative is quite clear. Pyrocat-M and Pyrocat-HD should be almost identical in use... at least according to what Ive read on Sandys' site and on UnblinkingEye. It can be used 2:2:100 as well.

Now I used 1:1:100 primarily to see how things worked out, and if these were to be printed it would have been silver prints.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

I use Pyrocat-HD for all of my negatives at 2:2:100 for carbon printing and T-Max 400 is one of the best films in Pyrocat HD. I would go to the 2:2:100 dilution.

[pkr1979]

Thanks Jim. Did you ever do silver prints with the 2:2:100 dilution too? With TMax400?

[Richard Wasserman]

I have no experience with Pyrocat M, but use a lot of 4x5 T-Max 400 in Pyrocat HD in a JOBO Expert drum. I use 2 baths of developer, each for 1/2 of the time as I find that Pyrocat oxidizes rather quickly from agitation in the drum. Doing the two baths makes a significant difference. If your negatives are still flat you can increase the development time by about 10-15% to see if that helps. It sounds too that you might be overexposing—I rate T-Max 400 at 640 ISO, but you should test this for yourself.

[jp]

I don't use a jobo, but agitate in a tank 1m then every minute for 10s for 14.5 minutes with pyrocat hdc or hd and 1:1:100 at 70f.
Try some longer development and show a photo of the negative at a window or lightbox or screenshot the epson scanner prescan histogram. Too much can be corrected in scans for the Internet to judge.
I scan as color in Epson software and set the blue channel to be a different white/black point so it ends up scanning with a neutral tint.
Casually, your scans look nice.
Keep film holders clean at all times, and store in plastic ziplock or antistatic ziplock backs when they are not in the camera or being loaded/unloaded.

[pkr1979]

Thanks. Maybe Im just not used to Pyrocat negs. Ayway... these 3 photos is from left to right - phone camera with neg on a pad lightable app, and then gamma 1 rawscan, and then gamma 2 rawscan:

212127 212128 212129

Im using the slowest speed, but maybe it aint slow enough to avoid oxidation.

Either way, if one looks at the close up of photos in my first post Id like to get TMax400 closer to TMax100.

[Alan9940]

Thanks Jim. Did you ever do silver prints with the 2:2:100 dilution too? With TMax400?

I've done a couple on grade 2 (older emulsion batch) with Lodima. Looks fine, but it wasn't TMax 400 that I used.

Unlike Richard, I've never had any issue with oxidation on my Jobo with Expert Drums running at the slowest speed. I do use two 1L baths, changing at development mid-point, with PMK on the Jobo because that formula oxides quickly.

[pkr1979]

Thanks Alan. Finding a way to not having to decide up front if youll print silver or carbon would be convenient.

[Drew Wiley]

I've settled in on PMK pyrogallol instead - like the grain and acutance rendering on TMY better than pyrocat. Tray dev for sheet film, Jobo hand-inversion drum for roll film (not automated rotary). Even Jobo's slowest speed seem too fast in my opinon for this kind of application unless most of the air in displaced from the drum. The more substantial gearmotor on my own version of a roller processor runs much slower RPM if needed; but I still don't like the effect. You could always gently hand-roll a drum back and forth on the sink bed.

[Jim Fitzgerald]

Thanks Jim. Did you ever do silver prints with the 2:2:100 dilution too? With TMax400?

I used the 1:1:100 when I was printing silver. When I printed on Azo I used 2:2:100.

[jp]

Thanks. Maybe Im just not used to Pyrocat negs. Ayway... these 3 photos is from left to right - phone camera with neg on a pad lightable app, and then gamma 1 rawscan, and then gamma 2 rawscan:

212127 212128 212129

Im using the slowest speed, but maybe it aint slow enough to avoid oxidation.

Either way, if one looks at the close up of photos in my first post Id like to get TMax400 closer to TMax100.

Thought it looks slightly thin, pyrocat negatives can look slightly thin because the stain adds to the density. I'd give it another minute or so in developing and/or use more liquid per film, not sure if your 800ml is for one roll or a bunch, if it's for one roll that's plenty. You want the factory writing along the edge to be nice and actually black. After experimenting with that, increase to a stronger dilution.

[pkr1979]

Hey. It was for two films. The TMax400 and the TMax100. The developer time was for the 400... I just threw in the 100.

If the factory writing is supposed to be black it isnt black enough.

[John Layton]

Most of my earlier work in the SW deserts was PMK with FP-4 (followed by FP4+). I then tried a then-new emulsion from Bergger out in Zion...and PMK clipped the highlights of that film so horribly (with VC paper) that it turned me off to PMK...so I then switched to Pyrocat-HD, and while I've been generally happy with it, I also realize that I'd put the cart before the horse by blaming PMK for the clipped (Bergger) highlights, instead of the Bergger itself and/or my own technique in processing this new emulsion.

At any rate...while I would also occasionally have some mottled-sky issues with PMK - I generally found it, in combo with FP-4, to be a wonderful developer - and my thought going forward is that I want to give it another chance.

Having said the above...I love what Pyrocat-HD does with TMY-120.

[jp]

Tmax 400 and 100 are different films and are to be developed each according to their own best times.

1:1:100 and two rolls and 800ml is probably not enough developer. You'd certainly gain by either using more chemistry or stronger dilution (less dilute)

[Drew Wiley]

John - I got fabulous SW results with the combination of Bergger 200 and PMK. Perhaps you overexposed it. It had such a long straight line that you could actually place the threshhold of shadow gradation onto Zone 0 with proper spotmeter technique. Comparatively, you wouldn't want to go below Zone I with TMY, or below Z II with FP4. Pyrocat HD didn't differ in that respect for me from PMK.

[esearing]

In film testing Obisidian Aqua which is another cachetol developer I found density where I like to work/print from based on time and dilution changes. For rotary and Pyrocat M you want to double A and B and find the sweet spot for time. M negatives are slightly warmer than HD and to my way of printng slightly flatter in contrast. I now add .5ml/500W more part B than I do for HD or OA.

https://www.searing.photography/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/obsidianAquaTestNeg.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/www.searing.photography/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/obsidianAquaTestNeg.jpg?w=1000&ssl=1
Left - under developed and very thin, middle - getting close needs grade 3, right image is too dense for my eyes but gives the best print on grade2

[John Layton]

Drew...I think you're right. My cardinal sin? Not thoroughly testing the Bergger film prior to my Zion trip - so I basically fell back on my "tried and true" exposure scenario for FP-4. Yup...start throwing those rotten tomatoes! :rolleyes:

[Drew Wiley]

Most of my own Zion work was more in backcountry canyons with color film. But a few months ago I stumbled on a neglected 8X10 Bergger 200/PMK shot of the Great White Throne, which didn't excite me much back then, but which I now recognized had real potential given better VC papers. It printed wonderfully; a bit too scenic for my personal taste, but fully alive in terms of delicate lighting and tonality over a very wide contrast range.

[pkr1979]

Thanks Eric - I think I will :-)

Ive been reading over Sandy's site (http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/pyro-staining-developers) again and it seems to me that if I mix 2+2+100 and develop for about 8 minutes at 73F/22-23C (my previous attempt was at 13 min 15 secs at 67-68F/19,5- 20C ) I'll get negs suitable for both silver and carbon:

212185

I'm keen to figure out how he counts time though when using the Jobo. I count as instructed by Tetenal... from first chemical+film contact until next chemical+film contact. Also, here it appears to me as if he is rating TMax400 at 320: https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Pyrocat/pyrocat.html. I can only assume thats not the case for those charts on his website.

[pkr1979]

I probably prefer the 2+2+100 over the 1+1+100. But Im having a hard time deciding if it should be exposed at 200 or 320.

[esearing]

2:2:100 is needed in Jobo because you are in constant agitation and working with small volume of developer which exhausts quickly and most of your development occurs in a relatively short amount of time. Dump and refill at mid point with fresh developer will boost contrast and gives you the option to maybe use a strong mix for first half, then a weaker mix second half. Another jobo trick I read about is: Empty the tank of your developer, PAUSE for 1 minute before adding a stop/water bath, letting the surface developer on the film continue to work.

PM is definitely softer and provides more gradient transitions than OA and HD. The difference is subtle like FP4+ vs Delta 100.

[Willie]

Get a book. Black & White Photography, by Henry Horenstein is a good one.
Learn to tell underexposure from underdevelopment/over and over.

This is your First Trial. Work with it a bit, learn to read negatives and it will improve.

Many use Pyrocat with excellent results. Many use combinations others would laugh at, with excellent results.

Most anything will work if you take time to learn and finesse things.