ATV's and landscape photography?

[Jack Brady]

Greetings,

I've defined the direction I'm going in for my future landscape journeys - bought a new 2005 Airstream 22' Safari travel trailer. Got the cart before I own the horse, but the deal I got on it didn't allow for procrastination - or logic. Now wrestling with best tow vehicle.

Thinking of a Ford F-250 diesel because:
Great towing capacity - trailer weight is less than 5,000#'s loaded.
Could put an ATV in the back of the truck bed!!

Thus, my question is have any folks made good use of an ATV to get to more remote sites to photograph?

Are there a lot of restrictions against ATV's at National/State Parks that would make it just dead weight in the truck rather than a usefull tool?

Any favorite models/brands those of you who have tried this route liked?

As always, thanks in advance,
Jack

[Frank Petronio]

This is going to be a fun thread. Thanks for livening things up around here...

[Walt Calahan]

Best ATV I use are my two legs. Why burn gasoline when you don't have to?

In fact when I do landscapes I pack an ATV 105 mm recoilless rifle to get them out of my image.

Same thing I do when sea kayaking, I bring along a torpedo to take out all "jet" skis.

When snowshoeing, I always pack a snowmobile RGP.

Ha ha ha.

Frankly, I hate the sound of ATVs. Their muffler system is designed for teenage boys who need to get in touch with their anal side. If they were quiet, and didn't tear up the land, I wouldn't have a problem.

Good luck on your hunt for the perfect LF ATV. I know you get good advice from this group, just not from me. Sorry.

[Jack Brady]

Let me add that at 59 years old I'm not out "tearing up" the environment. I'm thinking more of an ATV's usefullness to get me to spots that are way beyond the hiking limits of my body, and doing it with care.

Jack

[Marko Trebusak]

I'm with Walter with this issue. I would not like to start war, but before you decide, try to read this article (http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0106/gt0106-1.html). And if you decide to use one, don't complain about ATV tracks in your compositions!

Marko

[Tom Westbrook]

It will totally depend on where you are, but you're right there are restrictions or outright bans on those at most parks. It probably would be best to draw up a list of places you are likely to go and get on the web and go look at Nat'l Forest/Park policies. Motorized vehicles are usually banned from all wilderness areas.

I personally think that they are noisy and very distracting to others around who might actually be there for some peace and quiet. But where ATVs are allowed, I'm guessing, the contemplative types are going to be far away.

[Ron Marshall]

Jack, buy the quietest one. Some designs are more oriented towards on the job mobility, rather than off-road racing, and run very quietly.

[Richard Martel]

I'm 67 years old and i'm not into tearing up the environment either...thats why I will not own or operate a ATV nor a Jet Ski. Don't get me started on these environmental disasters. And No! I'm not a tree hugger...I do hope you enjoy your Airstream. Richard

[tim atherton]

Hey - it's a free market - if you want to tear around on an ATV - go ahead and do it.

(but I do hope none of the naysayers drive a honking great SUV or Truck full of camera gear to the National Park Car Park before complaining about those nasty stinky noisy ATV's...)

If you want to complain, at least drive a hybrid :-)

[Caroline Matthews]

I see ATVs as comparable to those people who talk loudly during a movie.

[John Kasaian]

A fellow I know who tows stock trailers likes the Chevy with the vortec as getting the best milage for towing. There is also the no longer made Ford 460 engine that gets a consistant 8mpg, whether you're towing a house trailer, gardeners trailer, or no trailer at all either up hill or on flat ground. Imagine how easy it would be to know how much your trip is going to cost you in feul before you leave the gate?

Don't skimp on GRVW on your tow vehicle---make sure it at least matches or even better exceeds the required recomendation. As far as fuel economy goes, I doubt if there is a truly satisfactory solution other than maybe a team of Clyesdales. We get 23mpg not towing and about 13mpg with a small loaded stock trailer when using the 'buran but it is seldom used as a tow vehicle (it's real purpose in life is serving as a Girl Scout Troop hauler arounder.)

An older. smallish diesel firetruck would make quite a statement. You could gear an empty tanker like that so that you would probably get excellent milage with something as light as an airstream in tow(I'm talking cruising the interstate with the engine at idle)---plus the red truck with gold pinstripe against the polished. aluminium airstream----wow!

[robert_4927]

Buy a horse and a good pack mule. Also in a lot of areas I'm sure you could contact an outfitter and rent what you need.

[Frank Petronio]

I think you can get into a lot of really good, remote areas with a straight 4x4 truck or Jeep by using logging roads and 4x4 tracks, which might save you the hassle of carting, maintaining, and protecting an ATV. Ansel Adms wasn't noted for backpacking, but he got his old Caddie up and down a lot of western mountains. I got my 2 wheel drive F-100 up into the mining towns over Telluride - I doubt you could find a better photo location. I drove it from Alta to Park City in the summer too. It's fun.

Living in rural Upstate New York, I notice that many of the swampers tend to have ATVs, snowmobiles, and watercraft in their yards. In pieces, because they are always working on them. Even the new $15K jobbers seem to need much more frequent work than a typical car or truck.

Plus the fact that a lot of people are maimed or killed on ATVs - from tipping over or finding ditches - or more frequently from collisions with other ATV drivers, whom you can't control and are often crazed teenagers.

Noise and environmental issues are certainly valid concerns (I hate jet skis) but there is enough room for responsible riders. But I am not sure you will get better photos from using an ATV. Simply getting into some remote place doesn't guarantee a good photo - and often the work it takes to get there introduces you to better photos along the way. And frankly, America is a big place with a lot of roads to some really neat places - I bet you could spend an entire season within 100 yards of the Glacier Nat'l Park or Joshua Tree or ? parking lots and it would still look like you packed in for days.

[bglick]

Jack, I sure can appreciate the benefit of getting to the destination without the agony of the travel. However, before you buy one, I would strongly consider renting or borrowing one. My experience has been, they are not allowed at many places, I am not sure if there is ONE policy for national parks, but I rarely see them used, I am sure there is a reason for such. More importantly, it is truly remarkable how many places ATV's can not travel to. If you have a long hike on a small trail which a vehicle can not travel, it is ideal, however, if it's foot trail, there is often a few places in the trail whereas the ATV can not make it through.... fallen trees, huge boulders, creeks with only a 2x8 board for people to walk over, wheras an ATV would often get stuck. I too thought about this, but the limitations are so great, I canned the idea, and my body would have sure bennefitted from one. But if you have the funds, consider one of these, it will get you to more places than a basic ATV and fits in the bed of a pick up truck.......

http://www.ridgerunner.biz/

I will second Franks comments about risk.... its amazing the things we will try when confronted with what seems like only a slightly risky situation....then, before you know it, the ATV tips over. If you are out solo, you got a huge problem on your hands. The injuries are often so bad, you can't walk, and you certainly can not flip an 800 lb rig back on its wheels. The statistics of serious injuries and death on ATV's is staggering, an issue that is often burried by the industry. I just always assumed this was from wild teenagers, however, I have learned that even trained Forrest Fighters have a very high casualty rate using them to fight fires. Being cautious is helpful, but the dirt under your wheels is not always cooperative.



Keep us posted !

[Jeffrey Sipress]

ATV's don't tear up the environment. Reckless and stupid ATV drivers do. And no, I don't own one. But my Land Rover stays on established trails and gets me to many wonderful photo locations.

[Aaron van de Sande]

I have been seriously thinking about getting a dual-sport motorcycle set up for photographing. I don't necessarily want to go off-road but the BLM roads in New Mexico are very rough and will easily overwhelm a car. I have also noticed that I 'see more' on a motorcycle than in a car.
I have been desert racing motorcycles the last couple years so I have plenty of skill, learning to ride a motorcyle safely (especially on dirt) is not trivial.

[George Stewart]

Here's (http://www.longwayround.com/intro.htm) a fantastic motorcycle adventure that might have been good from the LF perspective. I think that some type of off-raod or enduro cycle would allow one to get around both on and off road. a quad I don't think is usable on road. In otherwords, how would one get to the trailhead?

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

All motorized and non-motorized mechanical conveyances are banned from all designated US Wilderness Areas. So, not only can you not use an ATV in a designated Wilderness Area, you also cannot use a mountain bike or hang glider.

In National Parks, it varies a bit from park to park, but in general, all (or at least most) trails are closed to ATVs and most are closed to mountain bikes. Motorized vehicles are limited to park roads, and then whatever you're driving must be street legal and properly licensed.

So, if National Parks and Wilderness Areas make up the majority of the places you plan to visit/photograph, an ATV is pretty much useless.

There are certain Forest Service and BLM areas that have looser restrictions for ATV use, but they vary widely from location to location. In many of the places ATVs are allowed, the intended use is "recreational riding" (aka - tearing up sand dunes). The more remote, pristine (photogenic) areas are usually off limits to ATVs (they remain pristine, or nearly so, for this very reason).

In addition to the very real safety issue, ATVs cause air and noise pollution, erosion and trail damage - and that's if they are ridden responsibility.

Walking is great exercise and it's never too late to start. 59 is young. I've been on six day backpacking trips with people far older than you and have encountered people in their 80s and 90s in remote Wilderness Areas. Start slow and work your way up. If you have a physical disability that makes walking difficult or impossible, most Wilderness Areas and many National Parks are open to pack stock. Again, regulations vary from location to location. In many places that means hiring the services of a commercial outfitter. This can mean anything from a full service guided pack trip where the outfitter supplies all the gear and cooks all the meals, to llama rental where you do all the work, but the llamas carry the weight. It all depends on where you want to go, your own abilities and how much you want to spend.

There are more environmentally-friendly alternatives to ATVs. As a society we seem joined at the hip to the internal combustion engine. You'd be amazed how liberating and exhilarating it can be to get away from that dependency if even just for a day or two.

Kerry

[Ralph Barker]

Personally, I rather like the idea of hiring the Swedish Bikini Team as porters, and just walking in at a leisurely pace. In this case, ATV means Absolutely Terrific Va-va-voom. ;-)

[Mark_3632]

there are a couple of Middle aged gents in colorado who bounce around the mountain forest roads on these with LF gear. Cool set up. They have custom made camera boxes on the back.
Their reasons for owning them made me think

1-Cheaper than a 4wd (where we were it was necessary)
2-Better gas milage than a 4wd
3-neither needs a 4wd to drive around the city
4-can be towed on a trailer by a car to the bottom of the mountain.

I think they were Yamahas, and they had a reverse gear.

They were able to get where we could not in our 4wd and we were mighty envious.

I would agree that the drivers tear up the environment not the vehicle.

Have fun with the Airstream and the ATV. If I could afford one I would do it in a second after seeing those two guys.

[paulr]

"In fact when I do landscapes I pack an ATV 105 mm recoilless rifle to get them out of my image."

during the first gulf war, when all the high-tech military gizmos were showcased on cnn every night, i found myself stuck in a traffic jam in rocky mountain national park, part of a train of 100 or so cars behind a winnebago that saw no reason to pull over.

my climbing partner and i fantasized about the product of the future: the Winne-Be-Gone, which would attach easily to any econobox like ours, deploy a night-vision heads-up display at the touch of a red button next to the a.m. radio, and in a hail of smoke and fire that would rival any yellowstone geiser, uneash the full diplomatic power of the american way (via satelite, of course).

sadly, we were both too challenged at math to pull it off, so we became artists instead of the Great Liberators.

[james mickelson]

Jack, don't listen to all the jealosy here. Or the granola gramps. An ATV is a useful tool. There have been many times out west here that I would like to have had an ATV or even 4 wheel drive to get to areas that I couldn't carry enough water to get to. There are ruins where it would take me days to reach on foot where a road already exists. For the purists out there, go ahead and walk. I'll pick up your tired bones on my way back. Tearing up the landscape? It's already torn up. Go off trail? Not me. If it has no wheel tracks I stay off. I don't drive fast so I don't kick up a lot of dust either. At a younger age I could lug 70 lbs around the Sierra or Moab. No problem. But I couldn't get to many places either. And it's nice having enough food and water to stay a week or two in the same spot while taking little day trips out on the dirt roads where you couldn't get to because of the limitations of your body. Water weighs 8.43 lbs per gallon. A hot day out in canyon country requires a couple of gallons. Limits other things like food and film. A horse? Get real. They cost a lot to maintain. I do like the idea of an outfitter. Best of both worlds if you have the money. They know the terain and the little hidden places. But I envy you Jack. Go for it.

[Don Wallace]

Jack: of course, it all depends on the terrain itself, but I use a home-made dune buggy, fabricated from an old Volkswagen frame. I put in a small block Chevy V8 with no mufflers and lemme tell ya, that sucker just roars! It is great in sand but can also just FLATTEN most small trees and bushes. I also mounted a 50 calibre machine gun on a little platform I welded to the back (I got the idea from those whacky "technicals" the Somali warlord crews drive). I usually bring the wife along and she stands guard by the MG in case of varmints (or digital photographers).

[robc]

nice site and photos here (http://jimmymacdonald.com/gallerypeople.html) including ATV's. They get everywhere.

If you do get one then make sure you get one with shocks on both sides at the rear. The big kawasakis have only one central shock and are much more prone to roll. They are being phased out. Vario belt drive is much easier because there are no gears(except reverse) and they are quieter.

If driven sensibly they don't cut up the ground because low pressure tyres give large foot print size and ground pressure is less than your own. If driven like a lunatic then they will. Always wear a crash hat.
Do not use on tarmac unless absolutely necessary. Soft tyres and soft suspension are not designed for it and make them more prone to roll on tarmac, especially if driven fast into corners.

[tribby]

never was much fer 4 wheelers. more of a dirt bike guy. got my first 30+ years ago. i have a plated drz440. it's got this loudass 94db yoshimura race pipe on it. noise pollution is temporary after all. i support multi-use trails and go quite loudly. i love the stinky faces it inspires. and, i love Love LOVE pissing off hippies. i enjoy too being coated in body armor riding upon my trusty steed... extending a mountaineer cf leg at them and charging straight for their heads as if in a joust. oh bubba, they move fast when faced with a mounted devil conducting the sweet minuet of the sausage creature. BRAAAAAAAPP the fourstroke sausage creature sings...

BRAAAAAAP BRAAAAAAAAP!

me

p.s. look out hippies! i'm 50-state legal, loud and don't value life. what's worse? i'm liable to be drunk or high on mindbenders and could mistake you for a bald yeti that would surely make me famous iffin' i was to kill it. 1 in 4 of us motorcycle people die on two wheels... we shit on the chests of the weird for we know we don't have long to live.

p.p.s. it's the absolute preponderance of hippies in the high country that's ruining the environment. my wee, fuel-efficient dirt bike harms nothing compared to the patchouilly-scented throngs.

[tim atherton]

Phew - for a moment I thought you said "patchouilly-scented thongs."

[Michael Rosenberg]

Jack,

I think many people have offered good comments on the environmental issues of using an ATV. I will add only one from my observations out west. Where people drive these things severe erosion and degradation of the landscape occurs. Where roads are abandoned and plants begin to fill in erosion is slowed or halted. Where 4WD or ATVs run on these roads you can see severe erosion and washing away of the soil after a single rain. ATVs have shallow drafts, and thus many 4WD roads are not ascessible - this does not seem to stop people from creating new roads and new problems. In one Anasazi site in Cedar Mesa ATV enthusiasist run their vehicles through the site, destroying the middens, pottery, and the structures themselves. While in Wyoming this past fall I visited Natl. Forests where ATVs are allowed, and believe me - the roads were really so rutted that you would not want to risk driving them with your LF gear. The beautiful gentle hills dotted with pines were lined with ATV tracks - I was not inspired to photograph them. The ATV tracks available through the forests have limited vistas, so I am not sure what you would photograph. Outside of Moab on the Colorado River I stayed at a BandB - they were surroned by ATV permitted areas. Again all I saw was red rock that took thousands of years to erode into beautiful shapes destroyed - so you can go to these limited areas and drive your ATV, but you would be hard put to get a good photograph.

If you want to get into remote areas I think the suggestion of an outfitter is an excellent idea. I have used Buckhorn Llama. They even offer non-hiking tours and have worked with photographers. My wife and I stayed outside of Silver city NM at a ranch (The Double E) next to the Gila National Forest and did trips into the forest on horse back. And by the way, pack horses are not allowed in many of the wilderness areas because they are distructive to the rock - which is why Llamas with their padded hoofs are used.

I am sure you have seen a variety of opinions here. But as photographers we have to be good shepards of the land, if only to leave it in shape for the next generation of photographers......

Regards,

Mike

[paulr]

"Phew - for a moment I thought you said "patchouilly-scented thongs.""

that would be better than the traditional scent.

[tribby]

re; scent,

not in my book it wouldn't.

my book is 3 pages long,

me

p.s. and it's printed in 60-point type.

[Michael Gordon]

I think the scorn you are receiving here should be enough to convince you that it's just not worth it, Jack :) Mr. Alpert is right; you're dying - we all are - and dying while on foot in the great outdoors is the way to go, not in an ATV rollover. Be sure and add the Greater Yellowstone Coalition to your will so that they can continue to fight the ATV and snowmobile scourge in your memory. :)

[Kirk Gittings]

Rob,

I had to laugh at the Jimmy MacDonald "serene" photography site. Every image of the photographers shows them in noisy exhaust spewing powered vehicles, boats. ATV's etc. Serenity for whom?

[Dave Langendonk]

Jack,

You certainly received a lot of negative reaction to the ATV idea. I can't help you there. The tow vehicle however I can. You're on the right track with a 3/4 ton truck with turbo diesel. Best thing going for this application. I have the GM version and get about 17 mpg pushing it pretty hard on the highway without a trailer. About 13-14 mpg with a heavy trailer. For going up hills with a trailer, there's no substitute.

[robc]

Kirk,

yes, but those were images of people working in their environment.

What's funnier is that "Jimmy MacDonald" doesn't sound very much like an inuit name to me.

[Mark_3632]

No where was Jack saying he wanted to tear around like a jackass. It seems there are a lot of folks who have no idea how to read. Did he once state he would be making his own roads. He is getting up there, probably has a good reason for wanting an ATV to scoot around established roads, and takes some photos. Just because a guy wants or owns an ATV does not make them stupid shits with no care for the environment. COuld it possibly be your own baggage is clouding your responses.

Jack,
Are you planning on being a stupid shit headed inconsiderate jackass, or are you wanting to responsibly drive on esablished trails and roads?

The guy asked a simple question and people automatically think the he has no concern for the environment and will automatically be a jerk. jack would be a fool to buy a Banshee for what he wants to do. Give the guy some credit for being pretty smart (hell he shoots LF doesn't he) and environmentally conscious (he shoots landscapes).

[Mark_3632]

SOrry for the language, folks. It has been a rough day and the self edit is not working too well.

[tim atherton]

"What's funnier is that "Jimmy MacDonald" doesn't sound very much like an inuit name to me."

welll - it can be after several generation of Scottish Whalers have left their mark - so to speak.

I knew a big Inuvialuit family called Steen - who's great great grandfather was a Texan cabin boy cum trader who married an Eskimo woman

[Caroline Matthews]

Think hard before you go diesel. Yes, they have advantages: better gas mileage and longer engine longevity, for two. But a diesel goes for about $5,000 more than a gasser, and the price of diesel fuel pretty well neutralizes the mileage advantage. I got a big block Chevy gasser with an Allison tranny last year to carry my camper, and couldn't be happier with it. The mileage isn't good, but it really moves in the mountains, the the 4WD takes me pretty well everywhere in all kinds of weather. Of course, I'm carrying a camper, not pulling a trailer.

[robc]

here in the UK kawasaki have a Diesel ATV which has a bench seat, stearing wheel and small tipping back on it. They are very popular with farmers, especially the older ones who have trouble getting their "leg over" on the usual quad bike style. Funnily enough its called a "Mule". Maybe that will appease the naysayers.

[John Kasaian]

rob,

I knew an old boy who got run over by one of those mechanical "mules" in Sonora a few years back. Stove in some of his ribs (ouch!)

As mentioned, turbo diesels are pretty hot items for tow vehicles these days. As far as ATVs go, I'll stick with long-ears----they have a built in sense of self preservation (not that they care all that much about your preservation, but if you're on top of one then your chances of getting "preserved' are pretty darned good!) This 'sense' is something mechanical devices don't have, and I'm the kind of guy who needs all the help I can get.

Good luck!

[Kerry L. Thalmann]

Mark - The guy asked a simple question and people automatically think the he has no concern for the environment and will automatically be a jerk.

Actually, he asked several questions. The one I specifically addressed was:

Jack - Are there a lot of restrictions against ATV's at National/State Parks that would make it just dead weight in the truck rather than a usefull tool?

There may be some National Park out there somewhere that allows the use of ATVs, but I don't know of any. Evidently the "anti-ATV" crowd aren't the only ones with a reading comprehension problem. I have yet to see one of the "pro-ATV" rants address this question. So, ATV owners, please help Jack out here and provide examples of National Parks that permit the use of ATVs.

I'm sure state parks vary more in their regulations concerning ATV use. Most of the ones I've visited don't allow them. However, I do know of a few exceptions. For example, Coral Pink Sand Dunes in Utah has an area specifically dedicated to ATV use, and other areas that are off limits. However, unless you want to photograph other ATV riders, there isn't a lot of photo potential in the area that is open to ATVs.

Rather than use foul language to criticise the anti-ATV crowd, how about actually helping answer Jack's question by naming some State and National Parks where ATVs can be used to get to more remote sites to photograph.

Buying and using an ATV is a personal choice. I wasn't making any assumptions about Jack's behavior, just pointing out that many of the places he may wish to visit and photograph (National Parks, Wilderness Areas, etc.) are off limits to ATVs.

Kerry

[Rob_5209]

I personally think the ATV idea is a good one, in fact I'm shopping for one as we speak. The key to their use, as mark so eloquently pointed out, is that they need to be ridden responsibly. Drive at a reasonable speed, use common sense and stick to designated trails. Where I live, there are thousands of miles of dirt roads that are simply too destructive to your common family car. An ATV will travel these roads much easier and much more cheaply than any car or truck. There is also an established (and well maintained) ATV trail system, that offers access to some out of the way places.

[robert_4927]

LOl...Damn Jack, after reading these posts I was beginning to think you got up and walked out of the Kyoto Accord. My best advice would be to do what ever your heart desires. I'm sure you'll act responsibly, what ever means of transportation you choose. But Kerry makes a good point . There will be some areas you can't get to. But you can spend the rest of your life and never cover all the areas you can get to. I just happen to like pack animals because my a$$ was raised on a Billy Cook saddle. I just happen to have had some of the most spiritual times in my life alone in the mountains at night with a fifth of scotch and a pot of rank coffee, talking with a 5 yr old buckskin mare. The more I drank the better the conversation got with that girl. And you can't beat the gas mileage.

[Frank Petronio]

Just thinking about being alone with a mule and bottle of Scotch... I vote for the ATV now.

[John Kasaian]

robert,

Do you pack with crossbucks or deckers?

[robert_4927]

Come on Frank a Buckskin is not a mule, it's a quarter.....well never mind...you're right I'd recommend an ATV in your case.

[Andrew O'Neill]

If you read more you will see that Jimmy is not from Nunavut but from Southern Canada. He went "up there" in 1977 and hasn't left...

[Andrew O'Neill]

...why is it my comments are almost always at the end of a thread when the thrust of the conversation is pretty much over?? Maybe I spend too much time in my darkroom. I gotta get out more often.

[robert_4927]

John we used crossbucks. But it's been about 12 yr since I've been in the saddle. But I use to be able to tie double diamond, squaw and basket hitches in my sleep. I sure do miss it at times

[John Kasaian]

robert,

I know what you mean, In a couple of months it'll be time to start conditioning the stock, go ing through the gear and making some plans. A couple of years ago I found a neat old volcano cone in the Ansel Adams, just above the tree line and I've been wanting to get my 8x10 up there. I hope ol' Milly Mule will be up to the task (actually, I hope I'll be up for it!) A heck of a lot of fun!

[Bill Jefferson]

What about a Hovercraft ? beats a wheeled vehicle!!

[Ralph Barker]

"What about a Hovercraft ? beats a wheeled vehicle!!"

Perhaps, but the dust is terrible. (LOL)

[Eric Wagner]

I use a truck camper and often pull a small trailer with a dual-sport motorcycle on it. I park the camper and use the motorcycle to explore the backroads in the area. When out exploring I carry a Rollei TLR in a backpack. Once I spot an area that interests me I return with the 4x5 at the time of day when I think the light will be best. I carry the camera gear in backpacks to isolate it from vibration. One advantage of a motorcycle is that it can be licensed to run on the highway in my state, but a 4-wheeler can't. Many national forests allow 4-wheelers to run on the regular roads, but I don't think they are required to, so that policy could perhaps change. One thing that I have noticed about the 4-wheelers is that a lot of dust boils in behind the rider. So, think about isolating your gear from vibration, protecting it from dust, and whether or not you will be happy not being able to legally ride on federal, state and county roads in many states. I have a Dodge with V-10 and am very happy with it, but most Dodge fans in this area seem to be going with the Cummins diesel to pull heavy loads. I am also 59 and figure that when I get too old to enjoy a motorcycle I'll tow a Jeep behind the camper.

[tribby]

JIMMY MICK!!!!

heya buddy! how ya be?

love,

trib