View Full Version : the thread for Kodak XTOL quality control issues
Michael R
2-Jan-2021, 08:11
"If you have XTOL Catalog #1058338 with the following Date Codes: 2019/10/07, 2019/12/19, 2020/02/25, 2020/02/26, 2020/02/27, we are facing a trade concern with these batches and would like to get this taken care of for you.
Please email us at ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com with your date code information and our team will respond with the proper next steps on this product.
We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this may have caused and thank you for your understanding."
tgtaylor
2-Jan-2021, 16:21
I just finished processing for alternative printing four 8x10 Fuji Acos negatives using Kodak Xtol developer which I mixed yesterday using distilled water and all four were uniformly thin including the rebates notwithstanding that the time in the developer was 22.5 minutes. The negatives were shot with different lens on different days using a Sekonic L758-dr light meter to determine exposure. The Kodak catalogue number is 105 8338 with a manufacture date of 2019/08/09 and expiration date of 2022-08.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792338313_aef1ee7f13_o.jpg
"If you have XTOL Catalog #1058338 with the following Date Codes: 2019/10/07, 2019/12/19, 2020/02/25, 2020/02/26, 2020/02/27, we are facing a trade concern with these batches and would like to get this taken care of for you.
Please email us at ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com with your date code information and our team will respond with the proper next steps on this product.
We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this may have caused and thank you for your understanding."
What a mouth-full of gibberish. "We are facing a trade concern ..." "... [we] would like to get this taken care of for you." "... our team will respond with the proper next steps on this product."
"We apologize for any ... confusion ..."
Confusion? With such clear statements? What a load of cow-dung. And this from essentially a marketing company.
How about: "We recently learned from a growing hoard of angry customers that our product Xtol can lead to poor results. We regret this. And while we also regretted an earlier batch of crappy Xtol and more recently a batch of D-76 that looked like cocoa powder, we remain committed to maintaining the highest standards when doing so doesn't cost us anything. Therefore, if you purchased a recent example of lame Xtol (cat # ...), please jump down a rabbit hole to possibly receive compensation. Thanks for choosing Kodak Alaris.
We all want Kodak Alaris to succeed, but they make it hard. Who wrote that mumbo-jumbo press-release?
Michael R
2-Jan-2021, 22:48
Latest from Alaris (from a few days ago):
"If you have XTOL Catalog #1058338 with the following Date Codes: 2019/10/07, 2019/12/19, 2020/02/25, 2020/02/26, 2020/02/27, we are facing a trade concern with these batches and would like to get this taken care of for you.
Please email us at ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com with your date code information and our team will respond with the proper next steps on this product.
We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this may have caused and thank you for your understanding."
I just finished processing for alternative printing four 8x10 Fuji Acos negatives using Kodak Xtol developer which I mixed yesterday using distilled water and all four were uniformly thin including the rebates notwithstanding that the time in the developer was 22.5 minutes. The negatives were shot with different lens on different days using a Sekonic L758-dr light meter to determine exposure. The Kodak catalogue number is 105 8338 with a manufacture date of 2019/08/09 and expiration date of 2022-08.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50792338313_aef1ee7f13_o.jpg
Oren Grad
3-Jan-2021, 08:56
Threads merged. Since this seems to be an ongoing thing, might as well gather all of the reports in one place. Can we please try to keep it to factual reports about things we've seen in our darkrooms, with details as to usage, results and batch number, as well as Kodak Alaris bulletins about batches to watch for plus any other official advisories, and minimize the unproductive flaming about Kodak Alaris as a company?
tgtaylor
3-Jan-2021, 11:16
Sent them an email with photo attached yesterday. When I was looking for a replacement developer (D-76) at B&H where I purchased the above from, I noticed that they tagged the new version developers from Kodak with "2019 Version" on their website. I think that this is a current widespread manufacturing problem at Kodak that encompasses many chemistry products including Xtol and D-76. Until they get this straightened out I'm switching the developer to Ilford's ID-11which is supposed to be similar to Xtol. This is a wake-up call and I am in the process of researching for a made from scratch developer.
paulbarden
3-Jan-2021, 11:45
Sent them an email with photo attached yesterday. When I was looking for a replacement developer (D-76) at B&H where I purchased the above from, I noticed that they tagged the new version developers from Kodak with "2019 Version" on their website. I think that this is a current widespread manufacturing problem at Kodak that encompasses many chemistry products including Xtol and D-76. Until they get this straightened out I'm switching the developer to Ilford's ID-11which is supposed to be similar to Xtol. This is a wake-up call and I am in the process of researching for a made from scratch developer.
I too am going to start making D-76 from scratch (http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/d76.htm).
I too am going to start making D-76 from scratch (http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/d76.htm).
The data files which accompany the BTZS Plotter (https://btzs.org/Software/Plotter.htm) program comprise a large collection of rigorous film/developer tests. Using the Plotter software we can compare curves for film speed and contrast at different development times for most available B&W films and developers.
Most of them are so similar that it's hard to find any combination that is substantially better. One reason may be that many of the formulas are close variations of one another.
If we make huge prints, shoot very contrasty subjects, print with UV light or need exaggerated acutance, we may require special-purpose treatment. Otherwise, we are free to consider general-purpose formulas and secondary factors like simplicity, cost and toxicity. D-76 and other similar formulas are attractive: their recipes are in the public domain, are simple and affordable to mix from scratch.
What's taking you guys!?!! Not mixing dev from scratch yet???
Don't know what's up with Alaris, but some of my chem bulk stock is older then me and works fine...
And you are throwing away mark-up money...
Free yourselves...
Steve K
tgtaylor
4-Jan-2021, 14:06
I just received a response:
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 11:55:09 AM PST, ProPaperChem <propaperchem@kodakalaris.com> wrote:
Thanks for reaching out to us and bringing this issue to our attention. Regarding our XTOL developer that you have we’ll certainly get this taken care of for you.
Given the circumstances, we’re going to go ahead and get this item replaced for you with new product. For this, we’ll just need some information from you. At your convenience, please reply to my email with the following:
• Phone Number:
• Preferred Email Address:
• Your Shipping Address (for replacement):
• Quantity of XTOL Developer for Replacement • Which Distributor did you purchase your XTOL Developer from?
Regarding the current XTOL product you have in your care, please feel free to dispose of it as there is no need to return this to us at Sino Promise.
We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you and that our product did not meet expectations. Rest assured that your replacement product will meet all appropriate criteria. I expect the replacement product to be sent to you by mid-February.
Thanks, and I’ll keep an eye out for your response and please don’t hesitate to keep in touch if you have any further questions.
I don't know if I am going to trust the replacement at this time. Probably wait to see if there are any complaints about the batch.
I don't know if I am going to trust the replacement at this time. Probably wait to see if there are any complaints about the batch.
If they had explained what the problem is/was, then it'd make it easier to trust them going forward.
Mike
John Layton
4-Jan-2021, 15:24
"Rest assured that your replacement product will meet all appropriate criteria."
Sorry, Oren...but this statement really, truly burns me! Basically, with this they are admitting fault, but providing (at least from what has been presented here) no direct acknowledgment of this, much less an actual identification of the fault, accompanied by specifics of when and how this was addressed by them. BAD! BAD! BAD! :mad:
ic-racer
4-Jan-2021, 17:21
No one does any process control or has objective data to show on this issue?
211155
paulbarden
4-Jan-2021, 17:35
"Rest assured that your replacement product will meet all appropriate criteria."
Sorry, Oren...but this statement really, truly burns me! Basically, with this they are admitting fault, but providing (at least from what has been presented here) no direct acknowledgment of this, much less an actual identification of the fault, accompanied by specifics of when and how this was addressed by them. BAD! BAD! BAD! :mad:
I think you're expecting a level of transparency from K/A that is far from what you're ever likely to get.
Michael R
4-Jan-2021, 17:59
No one does any process control or has objective data to show on this issue?
211155
Alaris has advised of the issue. It isn’t a matter of end-user speculation. In general I don’t think it is reasonable to expect non-commercial hobbyists to run objective process control tests on CI etc. The best they can do is let Alaris know they think something is off, and allow them to test and follow up.
ic-racer
5-Jan-2021, 17:06
I don’t think it is reasonable to expect non-commercial hobbyists to run objective process
"objective process" is 98% of this forum :D, why leave development chemistry to chance? I bet Drew doesn't...
David Lindquist
6-Jan-2021, 12:26
"objective process" is 98% of this forum :D, why leave development chemistry to chance? I bet Drew doesn't...
I bet Drew has a densitometer that reads to four decimal places.:D
ChristopherMarv
6-Jan-2021, 18:51
The list just keeps going with Kodak. Didn't they announce recently that they're raising their prices?
paulbarden
6-Jan-2021, 21:28
The list just keeps going with Kodak. Didn't they announce recently that they're raising their prices?
They ALL announce price increases, usually every year. Your point??
ChristopherMarv
7-Jan-2021, 17:06
They ALL announce price increases, usually every year. Your point??
They're asking me to pay more for their increasingly unreliable products.
sperdynamite
7-Jan-2021, 18:05
If you know where to get control strips I'd love to know about it...
I believe ic-racer has a sensitometer and can make them, at least for black and white anyway.
I think it's a good time for users to get on the same page and list the issues they share... Is it storage issues, dev failure, staining etc???
Bring this up directly with Alaris... A Kodak rep once told me they get all kinds of screwy complaints from wacky users, so it all needs to be listed together...
Stick together!!!
Steve K
Michael R
7-Jan-2021, 20:56
Again, Alaris (actually now Sino Promise) issued the notice, which is why I posted it here. I don’t think they have explained exactly what the “trade concern” is, but if you have any XTOL with the listed date codes they will replace it. In the latest service bulletin and responses to email inquiries they are saying they have a new supplier and hope to have replacement product in February. Update on the brown Dektol issue as well. Read here:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info
I think it's a good time for users to get on the same page and list the issues they share... Is it storage issues, dev failure, staining etc???
Bring this up directly with Alaris... A Kodak rep once told me they get all kinds of screwy complaints from wacky users, so it all needs to be listed together...
Stick together!!!
Steve K
m00dawg
11-Jan-2021, 20:10
Geez glad I stumbled onto this. I knew about the notice but for some reason thought my batch was unaffected. I looked and sure enough it is. Second time I've been hit by a bad batch :/ Sure hope they get it sorted out.
ADOX hinted that they're working on their own XTOL. I might like to see that, though not sure what to do with my XTOL-R batch. It's well seasoned and has been quite reliable for me. Not sure the impact of just dumping an XTOL clone into it. Likewise, getting Adox chems here in the states might be an issue?
Michael R
11-Jan-2021, 20:29
I would wait for the new batches of XTOL (currently expected mid Feb).
m00dawg
12-Jan-2021, 17:12
Oof Mid-Feb is cutting it close for me. I'm down to about 300ml of stock for my replenishment. But yep probably wise. I e-mailed Kodak (using the email from OPs post). Of note they appear to be directly from Sino Promise which, I would guess is the new Kodak chemical supplier? In any event, they offered to replace the product and mentioned there's no need to return the bad batch. This is very similar to the last time there was an issue with XTOL so all told it was a pretty easy process.
urnem57
13-Jan-2021, 01:40
I bought 4 bags of Xtol from 2 different sources. ALL of them were bad. It was only after destroying 6 sheets of 4x5 film that I started researching the “Trade concern”
I then bought a bag of D76 from a 3rd supplier. It too was bad. It looked like maple syrup as I was mixing it. It’s pretty sad that a once great company named Kodak is now just an empty brand name that can’t even competently produce reliable chemistry. After 50 years of using
strictly Kodak b/w chemistry, I’m done. The 4x5 b/w film still seems ok for now. Sad, but not surprising.
paulbarden
13-Jan-2021, 09:08
I bought 4 bags of Xtol from 2 different sources. ALL of them were bad. It was only after destroying 6 sheets of 4x5 film that I started researching the “Trade concern”
I then bought a bag of D76 from a 3rd supplier. It too was bad. It looked like maple syrup as I was mixing it. It’s pretty sad that a once great company named Kodak is now just an empty brand name that can’t even competently produce reliable chemistry. After 50 years of using
strictly Kodak b/w chemistry, I’m done. The 4x5 b/w film still seems ok for now. Sad, but not surprising.
Start making your own D-76 from scratch. Its ridiculously easy. That's what I'm doing now, as Xtol becomes less and less reliable.
urnem57
13-Jan-2021, 10:08
Start making your own D-76 from scratch. Its ridiculously easy. That's what I'm doing now, as Xtol becomes less and less reliable.
I’m open to that idea. Any recipe for D76 that you would care to share that you know to work well?
Thanks!
paulbarden
13-Jan-2021, 10:37
I’m open to that idea. Any recipe for D76 that you would care to share that you know to work well?
Thanks!
D-76 is D-76. As long as the recipe is written correctly (no errors) then they should all look the same.
See: http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/formulae/developers/devID11.htm
or: http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/d76.htm
Both identical. There are variations on D-76, such as D-76H, which omits the Hydroquinone and increases the Metol which are also published: http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/fdev.htm
Michael R
13-Jan-2021, 10:56
I’m open to that idea. Any recipe for D76 that you would care to share that you know to work well?
Thanks!
How about D-76 :)
750ml water ~50C
2g Metol
100g sodium sulfite (anhydrous)
5g hydroquinone
2g borax
Water to make 1 liter
Or you could just buy Ilford ID-11 (or Kodak D-76)
Even easier, D-23 (similar to D-76):
750ml water ~50C
7.5g Metol
100g sodium sulfite (anhydrous)
Water to make 1 liter
urnem57
13-Jan-2021, 20:10
Great. Thanks. I think I can get all of theses materials from Photographer’s Formulary. I am so disappointed with Kodak.
paulbarden
13-Jan-2021, 20:36
Great. Thanks. I think I can get all of theses materials from Photographer’s Formulary. I am so disappointed with Kodak.
I bought all of my supplies for making D76 and a few others from Artcraft Chemicals. Excellent prices, fast service.
Agree with Artcraft. More dependable and higher quality all the way around.
urnem57
13-Jan-2021, 22:36
Agree with Artcraft. More dependable and higher quality all the way around.
Great! Thanks.
tomwilliams
24-Jan-2021, 07:44
I haven't seen the Legacy Pro xtol clone mentioned ... it seems to work well for me as an xtol substitute, and I haven't had to wait on supplies of Legacy Pro as I have had to do with xtol. Any quality or consistency issues noted with Legacy Pro?
GoodOldNorm
24-Jan-2021, 08:58
I haven't seen the Legacy Pro xtol clone mentioned ... it seems to work well for me as an xtol substitute, and I haven't had to wait on supplies of Legacy Pro as I have had to do with xtol. Any quality or consistency issues noted with Legacy Pro?
Anyone got a formula for a homebrew Xtol type developer?
Richard Wasserman
24-Jan-2021, 09:13
Anyone got a formula for a homebrew Xtol type developer?
Here you go—
http://home.alphalink.com.au/~simgrant/jackspcs/mytol.htm
Michael R
24-Jan-2021, 09:20
Anyone got a formula for a homebrew Xtol type developer?
It isn't the best idea to home/scratch-mix ascorbate developers. Add to this that the working characteristics of XTOL are nearly the same as D-76 and you're better off with that if you want to make something at home.
If on the other hand one is bent on making an XTOL-type developer from scratch, aside from using the original formula from the XTOL-related patent, Ryuji Suzuki's ascorbate formulas are by far the most well researched scratch mixes.
Hope this helps.
Michael R
24-Jan-2021, 09:31
I haven't seen the Legacy Pro xtol clone mentioned ... it seems to work well for me as an xtol substitute, and I haven't had to wait on supplies of Legacy Pro as I have had to do with xtol. Any quality or consistency issues noted with Legacy Pro?
Not that I know of. Of course there has been much speculation about all this, but who knows.
tomwilliams
24-Jan-2021, 11:02
Let me add that I've read the recent threads following failures with defective xtol, and threads about occasional inexplicable failures with xtol. There has been mention of alternatives to xtol in those threads, but what I haven't seen much of are statements of experience by users of the Legacy Pro product. Are there consistent users willing to comment?
urnem57
24-Jan-2021, 19:51
I have been through 2 bags/batches of Legacy Pro Developer with great results. I have run 4x5 sheets of Ilford Delta 100, Tmax 100, Rollei RPX 25, and Foma 100. As for the Tmax 100, I have found that stock solution works best. I am running 6 sheets at a time in a Paterson Tank and a 20th Century Camera reel. Hope this helps. Kodak said they were sending more Xtol in mid-Feb. We will see....
tomwilliams
25-Jan-2021, 06:57
I'm waiting for Kodak's replacement for my defective xtol as well, but not sure about using what they send. I would expect such an outfit could exert sufficient pressure on their suppliers that the problem should be corrected quickly. But, as you mention urnem57, we will see. In the meantime, Legacy Pro has not disappointed me yet...
urnem57
27-Jan-2021, 12:37
Just out of curiosity...have others been told “Mid February” for the shipments of replacement Xtol? I am very skeptical about using it without wasting at least one tankful from each bag by testing it. Seems like an unfair trade. I have also been researching this a bit and it seems that there have been multiple Xtol failures in the last few years. Not good.
Michael R
27-Jan-2021, 13:14
Just out of curiosity...have others been told “Mid February” for the shipments of replacement Xtol? I am very skeptical about using it without wasting at least one tankful from each bag by testing it. Seems like an unfair trade. I have also been researching this a bit and it seems that there have been multiple Xtol failures in the last few years. Not good.
Still mid-Feb so far, from a new supplier. I don't know what part(s) of XTOL production or packaging the new supplier is involved with. As far as I know the specifics regarding the most recent XTOL issue were not disclosed.
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/photographers-photo-printing/resources/chem-tech-info
I know mid-Feb isn't too far off but I'm now completely out of XTOL and my replenished solution is just hanging out aging away. Anyone in the same boat that perhaps has tried Eco Pro? Thinking of making getting it at least as a stop-gap.
I kinda wonder if the new supplier will change the XTOL formula back to the "old" stuff. Adox mentioned the new stuff has a different contrast and has teased about working on their own XTOL-like developer. At this point given I use replenishment, having something stable and reliable is perhaps more important so I don't have to retest film again buuuut I really enjoy Adox products and given I've been burned by this twice now, I'm a little torn on options.
As I recall the new supplier is the same one that does their C-41? That stuff seems pretty rock solid so gosh hopefully this is the last recall of XTOL for a while...I'm just getting antsy with a growing queue of stuff to develop.
Michael R
5-Feb-2021, 14:59
The Adox thing is nonsense. There is no evidence Kodak changed anything in the formula.
The Eco Pro clone purportedly works like XTOL. There is no guarantee development times will be identical but it could be a product worth trying.
Indeed I would like to see more proof before such grand claims. But the HC-110 formula is different (same results, but questionable longevity since it's no longer a syrup), there was that weird thing with D76, 2 recalls in what 12 months for XTOL. Whatever supplier Kodak was using before I don't think had their act quite together. So I'd say it's plausible XTOL may be different. Though I haven't done any comparisons myself and don't have old XTOL around to do those so it's plausible, but definitely unsubstantiated at this point. I think if Adox does come out with some sort of XTOL-like solution, I think I might give it a go.
In the meantime, I did reach out to Sino Promise (the new chemical supplier) on an update for the replacement XTOL but I would expect the mid-Feb estimate is accurate. I think I'll go ahead and order some of the Eco stuff just to have it around in case the date gets pushed back further.
I bought two bags that are from this problem batches. I mixed one up a month before the announcement and had no issues with it, other then floaters when initially mixing it up (they went away). I used some of this developer as recent as late last month, and the negs turned out fine. So even though my batch is supposed to be bad, it is working as its supposed to.
Michael R
15-Feb-2021, 15:37
We don’t know what the problem is.
Hopefully there will be an update soon. The last official bulletin about this in early January indicated they were hoping to have batches from the new supplier ready to ship in mid February.
I bought two bags that are from this problem batches. I mixed one up a month before the announcement and had no issues with it, other then floaters when initially mixing it up (they went away). I used some of this developer as recent as late last month, and the negs turned out fine. So even though my batch is supposed to be bad, it is working as its supposed to.
Andrew O'Neill
17-Feb-2021, 16:40
I've been using the bad batch since it was first announced with no issues. I'm using a replenished regime.
lassethomas
24-Feb-2021, 16:54
I also mixed some from the bad batch today, and running a test roll of HP5 through. it look perfectly OK.
As a side note I bought some Fomadon Excel as an alternative, waiting for the replacement. It's supposed to be more or less the same. Published times for stock solution are the same as Xtol. At 1+1 thou, using the same times as Xtol, my HP5+ tests came out very dense and severely overdeveloped. Looked like I had set the the ISO to 100 (which I had not). So beware, it's not the same as Xtol, as one can be led to believe.
213165
Same film, same camera, same settings, same light.
Top is Fomadon Excel, bottom Xtol (bad batch). Both 1+1 and 9 1/2 minuets at 20 degrees
m00dawg
24-Feb-2021, 17:13
At this point I'm getting very interested in Adox's solution. It's not that I mind waiting either. I know Kodak is likely switching suppliers and all, I get it. It's that they're so tight lipped about it and now I can't even get a response from their e-mail address (I ended up with 2 more bags of the tainted stuff and they have yet to acknowledge it). Heck I even at this point don't care about getting my money back for the bad bags. I won't even mind if it's more expensive, I just need to know when I can expect it to arrive with some good information about what's going on.
Today I spent time looking at alternatives and as far as replenishment goes, there's T-Max RS but I think that's about it that's sort of "off the shelf". D76/ID11 can be mixed for replenished stocks but otherwise I came right back around to XTOL.
For now I've got some HC-110 and unmixed ID11 and Microphen I'm thinking about using. I have photos I shot last week during the Texas winterpacalypse I'd really like to develop.
urnem57
25-Feb-2021, 12:29
I really hope that Kodak gets it together - and soon. They have been reliable for so long and I hate to see this happening. By the way, where are the replacements?
I really hope that Kodak gets it together - and soon. They have been reliable for so long and I hate to see this happening. By the way, where are the replacements?
Hope is good, but will not carry long ��. People do mistakes and companies do have problems, and customers understand if a company take care their customers. Not sure if the later part is valid with Kodak
Bruce Watson
25-Feb-2021, 15:57
I really hope that Kodak gets it together - and soon. They have been reliable for so long and I hate to see this happening. By the way, where are the replacements?
Um... this is photography, yes? Kodak got out of that business back in 2011, because of its bankruptcy. I think they still do motion picture stuff, but consumer photography got sold to a Brit firm called Alaris. I think they changed their name to Kodak Alaris (why not? they bought the brand, might as well use it), but that could be a more recent event, IDK.
So, let's hope that Alaris gets it together. BTW, the "genius" that decided that Kodak should quit making their own stuff and should outsource everything they could (thus giving up control, particularly quality control) was a former CEO named Antonio Pérez. Probably made him a fortune in executive bonuses, but it's what's made XTOL rather untrustworthy today IMHO. So thanks a lot Perez, what a swell guy you were. If you're looking for a bad guy in this story, Perez has my vote.
I could be completely wrong about this (would not be the first time), but this is what I remember and a quick look at the Wikipedia entry for Kodak confirms most of it. As does a look at:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/
Oren Grad
25-Feb-2021, 16:26
Bruce, that account of the history isn't quite right. But most important for the present context, last June Kodak Alaris sold the photo paper and photo chemicals business on to Sino Promise:
http://www.sinopromise.com/content/info/id/62.html
So yet another set of hands is now responsible for it.
Michael R
25-Feb-2021, 16:33
Well, Eastman Kodak makes all of the film, colour and black and white, in Rochester, so there’s that.
Um... this is photography, yes? Kodak got out of that business back in 2011, because of its bankruptcy. I think they still do motion picture stuff, but consumer photography got sold to a Brit firm called Alaris. I think they changed their name to Kodak Alaris (why not? they bought the brand, might as well use it), but that could be a more recent event, IDK.
So, let's hope that Alaris gets it together. BTW, the "genius" that decided that Kodak should quit making their own stuff and should outsource everything they could (thus giving up control, particularly quality control) was a former CEO named Antonio Pérez. Probably made him a fortune in executive bonuses, but it's what's made XTOL rather untrustworthy today IMHO. So thanks a lot Perez, what a swell guy you were. If you're looking for a bad guy in this story, Perez has my vote.
I could be completely wrong about this (would not be the first time), but this is what I remember and a quick look at the Wikipedia entry for Kodak confirms most of it. As does a look at:
https://imaging.kodakalaris.com/
m00dawg
25-Feb-2021, 17:13
Sino Promise has been making their C-41 for a while, but I thought hadn't been making XTOL? The tainted batches reference Germany and I thought Sino was China (Hong Kong)? Flexicolor chems are rather good so I'm hoping if it is moving under Sino from whomever it was is a step in the right direction.
But again, though I'm excited about Kodak's teasing about new film and what not, I think if Adox comes out with an XTOL like option, it's something I will seriously evaluate.
paulbarden
25-Feb-2021, 18:17
Update: Its February 25 and no sign of the replacement Xtol Kodak said would be sent by Mid-February. No contact from Big K, no tracking, nothing. I can't pretend I'm surprised, but the last time this happened, replacement product arrived in a timely manner.
Maybe it doesn't matter so much now, because I've migrated to using PMK and home-brew D-23, and liking it a lot. Also making ID-78 warm tone print developer from scratch and liking it a LOT.
Bruce Watson
25-Feb-2021, 18:18
Bruce, that account of the history isn't quite right. But most important for the present context, last June Kodak Alaris sold the photo paper and photo chemicals business on to Sino Promise:
http://www.sinopromise.com/content/info/id/62.html
So yet another set of hands is now responsible for it.
Excellent -- I missed that bit. Well, OK, I haven't been paying that much attention. I'm glad you were. And please do correct the history -- I'd like to know the complete and correct history myself, and I'm sure others would as well.
So Alaris sold the photo paper and chemicals biz to the Asians. But what about the consumer film biz? Did that go too, or do they still hold that bit?
And the sale of the chemicals biz to Asia might explain why XTOL suddenly went wonky. That's a risk every time you change facilities and people. I would imagine that they'll get it right eventually.
Michael R
25-Feb-2021, 18:19
The affected XTOL is the "Tetenal" stuff from Germany.
In the January bulletin Sino Promise indicated they now had a new supplier and hoped to begin shipping the newly made XTOL in mid February. Hopefully that means there will be XTOL on the shelves shortly.
Sino Promise has been making their C-41 for a while, but I thought hadn't been making XTOL? The tainted batches reference Germany and I thought Sino was China (Hong Kong)? Flexicolor chems are rather good so I'm hoping if it is moving under Sino from whomever it was is a step in the right direction.
But again, though I'm excited about Kodak's teasing about new film and what not, I think if Adox comes out with an XTOL like option, it's something I will seriously evaluate.
Michael R
25-Feb-2021, 18:28
Update: Its February 25 and no sign of the replacement Xtol Kodak said would be sent by Mid-February. No contact from Big K, no tracking, nothing. I can't pretend I'm surprised, but the last time this happened, replacement product arrived in a timely manner.
They have switched suppliers so perhaps it is taking longer than they expected/hoped.
It is too bad they have not issued an updated official bulletin (last was beginning of Jan), which in my opinion would be a good idea given how likely it is some people will have simply become too frustrated by now and finally decided to just give up on XTOL altogether. But what do I know - I ain't no business man.
What I've honestly been doing is monitoring B&H. I figure they'll be the first or one of the first to have the new batch.
Michael R
25-Feb-2021, 18:48
If you want to know how it all fits together, if you are an APUG/Photrio member I suggest the Kodak/Alaris/Sino Promise thread(s) there - not all the noise but specifically the posts by Matt King, who has followed the lengthy Kodak saga closely and understands the legalities, who owns what, branding etc.
Excellent -- I missed that bit. Well, OK, I haven't been paying that much attention. I'm glad you were. And please do correct the history -- I'd like to know the complete and correct history myself, and I'm sure others would as well.
So Alaris sold the photo paper and chemicals biz to the Asians. But what about the consumer film biz? Did that go too, or do they still hold that bit?
And the sale of the chemicals biz to Asia might explain why XTOL suddenly went wonky. That's a risk every time you change facilities and people. I would imagine that they'll get it right eventually.
Oren Grad
25-Feb-2021, 18:58
Excellent -- I missed that bit. Well, OK, I haven't been paying that much attention. I'm glad you were. And please do correct the history -- I'd like to know the complete and correct history myself, and I'm sure others would as well.
So Alaris sold the photo paper and chemicals biz to the Asians. But what about the consumer film biz? Did that go too, or do they still hold that bit?
Tangential to this thread, but the ultra-short version: Alaris was not a pre-existing company. It was created from scratch during Eastman Kodak's 2012 bankruptcy as part of the settlement of EK's obligations to the UK Kodak Pension Plan and is owned by the plan. As an operating business, Kodak Alaris hasn't come close to compensating for the shortfall in what EK owed to the pension plan, so over time they've been figuring out how to salvage as much value from it as they can. Hence the recent sale of some of the KA businesses to Sino Promise. KA still holds the marketing rights to Kodak-branded consumer film.
paulbarden
1-Mar-2021, 10:17
Has anyone received replacement product from Kodak yet?
March 1st and I've heard/received nothing.
Nada. (sound of tumbleweeds)
John Layton
1-Mar-2021, 12:37
Jeesh...sounds like kind of a shaky arrangement - like I'd better make some more room in my freezer!
I got one response from their Instagram which said to just send another e-mail. Which I did, and no response in a few days now. I've resorted to just tweeting them every day. I just don't understand why they can't just offer a simple update and spend a few minutes to update their recall page...
David Lindquist
7-Apr-2021, 15:10
From the forum formerly known apug a report that "new" Kodak XTOL is now available from Freestyle. One person reports receiving a package marked made in USA:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-xtol-trade-concern-announcment.180508/page-31
David
From the forum formerly known apug a report that "new" Kodak XTOL is now available from Freestyle. One person reports receiving a package marked made in USA:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/kodak-xtol-trade-concern-announcment.180508/page-31
David
I went to Freestyle today. I looked at (and picked up) the XTol on the shelf. It is indeed in a white bag, but it felt metallic when I bent it. I also noticed that the seal at the top is exactly how it used to be in The Kodak foil pouches. It looked to me like the packaging is white plastic on the outside with a foil liner inside. I didn’t buy any though. I a reticent to give whoever they are now my money for chemicals. I’ll let you guys be the test animals.
David Lindquist
7-Apr-2021, 17:47
I went to Freestyle today. I looked at (and picked up) the XTol on the shelf. It is indeed in a white bag, but it felt metallic when I bent it. I also noticed that the seal at the top is exactly how it used to be in The Kodak foil pouches. It looked to me like the packaging is white plastic on the outside with a foil liner inside. I didn’t buy any though. I a reticent to give whoever they are now my money for chemicals. I’ll let you guys be the test animals.
Yes, on the apug thread someone mentioned the packaging seemed to involve foil. Like you I'm going to wait for others to try this newest iteration. For now and probably the foreseeable future I'll stay with D23.
David
BLATT LAB
8-Apr-2021, 00:40
I dont know if someone already wrote about it in this forum but Adox recently started selling their XT-3 Developer wich is basically a (better ? ) version of Xtol.
tgtaylor
3-Jun-2021, 12:40
I just received a response:
On Monday, January 4, 2021, 11:55:09 AM PST, ProPaperChem <propaperchem@kodakalaris.com> wrote:
Thanks for reaching out to us and bringing this issue to our attention. Regarding our XTOL developer that you have we’ll certainly get this taken care of for you.
Given the circumstances, we’re going to go ahead and get this item replaced for you with new product. For this, we’ll just need some information from you. At your convenience, please reply to my email with the following:
• Phone Number:
• Preferred Email Address:
• Your Shipping Address (for replacement):
• Quantity of XTOL Developer for Replacement • Which Distributor did you purchase your XTOL Developer from?
Regarding the current XTOL product you have in your care, please feel free to dispose of it as there is no need to return this to us at Sino Promise.
We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you and that our product did not meet expectations. Rest assured that your replacement product will meet all appropriate criteria. I expect the replacement product to be sent to you by mid-February.
Thanks, and I’ll keep an eye out for your response and please don’t hesitate to keep in touch if you have any further questions.
I don't know if I am going to trust the replacement at this time. Probably wait to see if there are any complaints about the batch.
Received this from FedEx today:
Hi, Thomas Taylor. Your package from Sino Promise, Inc. is on its way.
Thomas
I dont know if someone already wrote about it in this forum but Adox recently started selling their XT-3 Developer wich is basically a (better ? ) version of Xtol.
I've been loving it! Higher contrast at the same dev times (I was using Xtol-R but it may have been questionable given I ran at least 2 bad batches through it) but heck I'm even trying replenishment with it and it's been going great!
My one cautionary tale is DHL. Right now the best way to get XT-3 is from FotoImpex if you're in the US. Freestyle should be getting it soon but not yet. I love FotoImpex and, if you order enough stuff, shipping isn't even half bad....except when DHL likes to loose packages. Fortuantely my order of XT-3 was all good but my order of the last batch of Silvermax got lost :/
So XT-3 wonderful developer in my book! But still not the easiest to get a hold of stateside.
tgtaylor
3-Jun-2021, 13:00
I have been using Ilford's ID-11 which, like D-76 and Xtol, is a tried and true developer.
Thomas
Was going to be replaced in February.
Nothing has arrived so far.
Other alternatives work well.
Why do business with those who don't care enough to do what they say they will do?
lassethomas
10-Jun-2021, 09:07
Sorted out at last with a nice twist.
First I tried to establish some communication with Sino, and except one answer asking me to supply information I already had supplied there has been only silence.
But, since I bought from Fotoimpex, I contacted them and things were solved within hours. Got the XTOL replacement as soon at is arrived, and I also got a liter sample of XT-3, the XTOL replacement for free.
Have tried both now. XTOL seems good again. Nice negatives with good density.
And I can't say I see any difference with XT-3. Perfectly OK.
Both done with 1+1 one-shot and the same development time.
And handling is better with XT-3. Dissolves in seconds. No more half hour stirring to get it to dissolve.
And it's nice to have choice
William D. Lester
14-Aug-2021, 10:28
Courier showed up unexpectedly this morning with 2 packages of xtol from Sino Promise. I initially contacted them this past January and was promised replacements would be sent sometime in March - I think. I sent a couple of follow-up messages when that didn't happen but never received a reply. So I was surprised and happy to receive them at last
paulbarden
14-Aug-2021, 11:06
Courier showed up unexpectedly this morning with 2 packages of xtol from Sino Promise. I initially contacted them this past January and was promised replacements would be sent sometime in March - I think. I sent a couple of follow-up messages when that didn't happen but never received a reply. So I was surprised and happy to receive them at last
I can attest to the fact that the new batch of Xtol (Mine is also replacement product) works as it should and has good shelf life when stored correctly. I have (somewhat) restored confidence in this product and will purchase it as needed.
alt.kafka
14-Aug-2021, 16:24
I have new Xtol that I bought this spring. It works just fine. I also heard from Sino Promise that I'll be getting my replacement soon.
roscoetuff-Skip Mersereau
16-Aug-2021, 04:54
Like David L, if I weren't "stuck" on D23, I might look at XTOL again. If that were to happen, I'd go for the ADOX product and support their commitment to film. Still don't know where Kodak and its suppliers are headed, and tending to look dubiously on unknowns and lesser knowns. ADOX was quick to step into the gap. That deserves thanks and support IMHO.
paulbarden
16-Aug-2021, 07:24
Like David L, if I weren't "stuck" on D23, I might look at XTOL again. If that were to happen, I'd go for the ADOX product and support their commitment to film. Still don't know where Kodak and its suppliers are headed, and tending to look dubiously on unknowns and lesser knowns. ADOX was quick to step into the gap. That deserves thanks and support IMHO.
I would consider Adox XT-3 as well, but to the best of my knowledge, it remains unavailable here in the US.
While unpacking some materials, I came across some Xtol dated 2019/08/09. Looking at the posts shown at the beginning of the thread, I'm assuming that this date should be safe to use. If not, then I have some unopened HC110 that is old enough to vote, which should be fine to use, based on what I've read here on the forum.
Thanks,
Ed
alt.kafka
22-Aug-2021, 10:55
Received my two packages of replacement Xtol today, Made in USA.
Two packages of D-76 came today to replace the Xtol.
Anyone want to trade for two packs of Dektol paper developer?
"If you have XTOL Catalog #1058338 with the following Date Codes: 2019/10/07, 2019/12/19, 2020/02/25, 2020/02/26, 2020/02/27, we are facing a trade concern with these batches and would like to get this taken care of for you.
Please email us at ProPaperChem@kodakalaris.com with your date code information and our team will respond with the proper next steps on this product.
We apologize for any inconvenience or confusion this may have caused and thank you for your understanding."
I have purcased in Germany 10 of Xtol Catalog 1058338 with the following Date Code 2020//02/26 9003 9004 exp 2023-02
I tried to send you an email and it failed. What do you propose me?
My adress is in France
[QUOTE=Alec;1621305]I have purcased in Germany 10 of Xtol Catalog 1058338 with the following Date Code 2020//02/26 9003 9004 exp 2023-02
I tried to send you an email and it failed. What do you propose me?
I have contacted Kodak Alaris and received that surprising answer:
"You will not be able to use the Xtol with this date code.
Unfortunately I do not have a way to credit or replace the product for you. I am sorry for that. "
paulbarden
18-Nov-2021, 12:24
[QUOTE=Alec;1621305]I have purcased in Germany 10 of Xtol Catalog 1058338 with the following Date Code 2020//02/26 9003 9004 exp 2023-02
I tried to send you an email and it failed. What do you propose me?
I have contacted Kodak Alaris and received that surprising answer:
"You will not be able to use the Xtol with this date code.
Unfortunately I do not have a way to credit or replace the product for you. I am sorry for that. "
I've been told by someone "in the know" that the issue is that Kodak cannot currently ship this product overseas - supposedly due to disruptions in shipping. (I have a friend in New Zealand who cannot get anything from the USA right now for the same reason).
[QUOTE=Alec;1622866]
I've been told by someone "in the know" that the issue is that Kodak cannot currently ship this product overseas - supposedly due to disruptions in shipping. (I have a friend in New Zealand who cannot get anything from the USA right now for the same reason).
Are you sure? The end of the Kodak answer was: "We have shipped product to GFH foto in Germany with new date codes which do not have this problem."
So they can ship to Europe without any trouble if they want!
Clearly, that means: "you have payed 10 Xtol for nothing and if you want some good one, you have to pay again".
They are not reliable.
lassethomas
19-Nov-2021, 05:19
[QUOTE=Alec;1621305]I have purcased in Germany 10 of Xtol Catalog 1058338 with the following Date Code 2020//02/26 9003 9004 exp 2023-02
I tried to send you an email and it failed. What do you propose me?
I have contacted Kodak Alaris and received that surprising answer:
"You will not be able to use the Xtol with this date code.
Unfortunately I do not have a way to credit or replace the product for you. I am sorry for that. "
I bought my faulty Xtol from Fotoimpex in Germany. First I tried to communicate with Kodak with little or no success. In the end I contacted Fotoimpex and they were very forthcoming and solved it within hours.
I don't know about your specifics, but perhaps it's also possible for you to contact your seller/ditributor, instead of Kodak.
And then a short word on Adox XT-3 as a replacement. I've tried it alongside with Xtol. Same dilution and times. No difference in end results as far as I can see.
And XT-3 dissolves in minutes, instead of the eternal stirring that's needed with Xtol
[QUOTE=Alec;1622866]
I bought my faulty Xtol from Fotoimpex in Germany. First I tried to communicate with Kodak with little or no success. In the end I contacted Fotoimpex and they were very forthcoming and solved it within hours.
I don't know about your specifics, but perhaps it's also possible for you to contact your seller/ditributor, instead of Kodak.
And then a short word on Adox XT-3 as a replacement. I've tried it alongside with Xtol. Same dilution and times. No difference in end results as far as I can see.
And XT-3 dissolves in minutes, instead of the eternal stirring that's needed with Xtol
Thank you, i will use Adox XT3!
FWIW, I use Fomadon Excel a lot, never had any issues with it, dissolves pretty quickly, the stock keeps well even in half full bottles made with tap water, comes in 1L quantities and is about 40% cheaper than XT-3.
lassethomas
20-Nov-2021, 05:36
FWIW, I use Fomadon Excel a lot, never had any issues with it, dissolves pretty quickly, the stock keeps well even in half full bottles made with tap water, comes in 1L quantities and is about 40% cheaper than XT-3.
Fomadon is good too.
But in my tries not exactly the same as Xtol. Treated as equal it gave me different results. Not necessary worse but different.
Xt3 on the other hand seems identical to Xtol.
Depends on what you are after I think
robbiemcclaran
19-Dec-2021, 18:13
I'm late to this party and only discovered it when searching for "Xtol problems". I mixed a batch of Xtol yesterday from a bag I had on the shelf for a little over a year. Following the mixing instructions as I always have, water at 85°Part A absoluely would not fully dissolve. It's always been a pain in the ass but this time it would not. Lot's of floaters. Finally, out of frustration I tried heating the water while stirring, but still no dice. Finally I said "fuggit" and strained out the floaters by pouring through a filter, which left behind maybe a tablespoon worth of un-dissolved particulate. I went ahead and added PartB, no problem and then bottled it up.
Today I went in to mix up some working solution to process a batch of film. Pouring into my measuring flask, the Xtol was super cloudy, had a ton of floaters and when looking in the bottle I could see a volume of white-ish muck semi suspending at the bottom of the bottle.
Oh hell no, I'm not running film though this crap! Anyway, I found this thread and checked my batch number and yep, it's date code was 10/07/2019.
So it brings me to a question I've been meaning to ask the smarter than me folks on this forum. Would it dramatically harm the chemical (assuming it's a normal and okay batch of the chemical) to mix it using much hotter water? Cause it takes for freaking ever even in the best of batches to get PartA fully dissolved at 85°.
I do like the negatives it produces, but am ready to switch to something easier if this Xtol thing doesn't get sorted out.
Andrew O'Neill
19-Dec-2021, 18:35
I'm on my second bag from suspect batch, and all is well. I received the replacements last summer, so I've got a supply that will last me a long time.
How does the Adox XT-3 look when used at a 1:3 dilution for the working solution?
When Xtol was first out Kodak gave time/temp for this dilution and it worked well. A bit later they changed and said "don't do it" - and not long after we started seeing the Sudden Death Syndrome with it.
Michael R
19-Dec-2021, 23:27
The “sudden death” thing was eventually traced to the envelopes for the 1l packets.
XT-3 is essentially a clone with XTOL’s borate buffer replaced with a more environmentally friendly one. Fotoimpex has also included its low dust tech for mixing. Photographically it should behave virtually identically to XTOL at all dilutions.
How does the Adox XT-3 look when used at a 1:3 dilution for the working solution?
When Xtol was first out Kodak gave time/temp for this dilution and it worked well. A bit later they changed and said "don't do it" - and not long after we started seeing the Sudden Death Syndrome with it.
paulbarden
20-Dec-2021, 07:42
I've been using the current batches of Xtol and it appears that the problems are under control. While I applaud Adox for bringing an alternative ascorbic acid developer to market, its too expensive here in the US: XT-3 costs $22 and Xtol costs $12, both 5 liter packages.
Michael R wrote: "The “sudden death” thing was eventually traced to the envelopes for the 1l packets."
Problem is I know three who had it with the 5 litre size. Kodak was not being honest with its customers about it even when it happened.
Maross396
24-Dec-2021, 11:09
I have the 5 ltr batch of the bad XTOL, any luck from Kodak on replacements?
Michael R
24-Dec-2021, 15:12
I have the 5 ltr batch of the bad XTOL, any luck from Kodak on replacements?
Apparently the pandemic etc. and global supply issues have caused a lot of delays getting these products from Sino Promise. According to some retailers no Kodak chemistry is being shipped from China right now.
MilamBardo
13-Jan-2022, 18:22
First time mixing Xtol, and I presume it is a bad batch, as I have hard flat crystal structures stuck to the bottom. There are not loads, though, so maybe this is okay? (I've bought some backup ID-11 just in case - I have just 1 week to take a photo)
MilamBardo
14-Jan-2022, 05:08
I've got maybe a tablespoon of hard crystals. The rest of the liquid seems clear. Any ideas as to whether I should use this? My problem is, I don't have a process yet, as I am just starting out, so won't know if thin negatives are my fault, or the solution...
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