The search of the golden bullet - Ilford FP4+/Hp5+ in ID-11 / D+76 (minimum amounts)

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Hello,

I wish you all the best für 2021, stay healthy!

I also have questions in 2021, that only you can answer to ...

First question:

Does anybody here knows exactly what minimum amount of stock solution I do have to take when developing one 4x5-sheet of Ilford FP4+ in Ilford ID-11 dilution 1+3?

Ilford says that we need 1000ml of stock solution to develop 10 135/35 films (surface is 490qcm). That means 1000ml of stock solution to develop 30 4x5 sheets (surface is 125qcm). So I would have to use 34ml of stock solution per 4x5 sheet.

Is this correct? Is it sufficent to take 34ml of stock solution and 102ml of water to get a dilution of 1+3 to develop 1 sheet of 4x5 film? Or is this too much?

Second question:

I am interested in ID-11 because it is a developer that is accessible to me. I don't have to wait for long when commanding it. The Internet provides me with similar formulae, so I could even build these develepers by myself.

I am thinking about ID-11 because I use Ilford FP4+ and HP5+. I dont't know whether other developers are better or worse. I don't like Pyrogallol developers because they are dangerous. The HC110 formula seems to change from time to time. Rodinal / R09 doesn't seem to be the preference to develop Ilford films. XTOL is too risky because of the sudden death issue, which I once experienced myself, a long time ago.

"The Darkroom Cookbook" cites a more environment friendlier formula for D-76, so I wanted to give these powder developers a first try. I don't think that grain and sharpness should be an issue because I am using 120 and 4x5 film. With dilution 1+3 the negative should be well-balacend, especially because I intend to use the minimum amount with little movement.

Is this a realistic combination for good results in the zone system?

Third question:

What about higher dilutions to achieve a stronger compensation effect, 1+5 or 1+10? Are ID-11 or D-76 suitable for this?

Many greetings!

[David Schaller]

How are you planning to process the 4x5 film? In trays? Rotary? The total amount of solution you will need is quite different. I can't advise you on rotary processing, but in a 5x7 tray, for one sheet of 4x5, I use 125 ml of D-76 or equivalent, and 375 ml of water, for a total of 500 ml of solution. I have made my own D-23, and it is very similar to the times for D-76 1:3.

[Tin Can]

SergeiR a member here determined by testing that X-Ray film required 10ml of Rodinol to process each 8X10 sheet

He tried as little a 7ml

He usually diluted 1/100 or 1/99 for the insane

Rodinol expires after 20 minutes, however some try far longer

Just posted as example of testing to find limits

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

How are you planning to process the 4x5 film? In trays? Rotary? The total amount of solution you will need is quite different. I can't advise you on rotary processing, but in a 5x7 tray, for one sheet of 4x5, I use 125 ml of D-76 or equivalent, and 375 ml of water, for a total of 500 ml of solution. I have made my own D-23, and it is very similar to the times for D-76 1:3.

Thank you, David, for your immediate response!

I plan to process the sheets with Kodak 4x5 Film Hangers in 3500ml Ikea trays, as usual. I also use the huge 2500ml Paterson System 4 tank (Mod54). Of course I will test development times ... cf. https://grossformatfotografie.de/thread/16906-das-ikea-development-tank-system-4x5/ and https://www.ikea.com/ch/de/p/sockerbit-box-mit-deckel-weiss-60316068/

With 34ml stock solution and 102ml water I would get 135ml ID-11 developer 1+3 per sheet. That means with 3500ml capacity of the developer tray I could develop 25 sheets at once. But I only have 16 film hangers. I can't handle more in a correct way because my hands are not dredge shovels. That means I give away developer for 9 films - that's why I ask if dilution 1+5 would work too ...

It all just depends on the minimum amount of developer per film.

Tschau zäme

[esearing]

With Pyrocat HD and variants doing a fairly normal tank process with agitation every 2-3 minutes I found that 60% (3/3/500) of the recommended (5/5/500) is on the edge for a single sheet and would sometimes lead to failure. But 65%-70% has not yet let me down. I know there is common wisdom out there about expose more and develop for less time, but my approach has been to keep the 12+ minute times and change dilution. Not sure if this is a good plan with standard developers or not. HC110 lends it self to high dilution and linear time increases, half strength = double time. Another factor will be developer freshness/age and how it exhausts locally. If two development agents are active then you can't know which one is doing the work. Scenes with much light or high-key, may require more developer than an average scene. Contrast control and overall density of negative is the main thing you have to evaluate, so for testing initially you may want to shoot 5-6 of the same image, process 1 at a time, make changes, then measure the results.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Yes, Rodinal is quite economical. My own results are also along the lines of 5ml per 135/36 film, which is 1.6ml per 4x5 sheet. I actually like Rodinal a lot. Especially since it really is very compensating in high dilutions.

However, it was pointed out to me in various places that Rodinal and Ilford films did not get along so well. Of course, I don't know if that's true. I used to develop Ilford films in Rodinal, but they were always medium format films, so I could never really see things like grain.

Then curiosity won out - I tried HC110H and was quite pleased. But now Kodak seems to be changing the formula, I've heard, and besides, I find the dilution of the viscous syrup annoying because the labware remains so sticky ... - This does not change my satisfaction with the results.

But today I am once again gripped by curiosity. Why should I stay with one thing all my life when there is so much more to discover?

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

but my approach has been to keep the 12+ minute times and change dilution. Not sure if this is a good plan with standard developers or not.

This is a very interesting approach that I would definitely like to try out. In terms of development times, this should actually work well with standard developers Here in Europe, it was Jost Marchesi who propagated this.

With the film hangers, however, you can develop individually in different durations. The first hangers are N-1 and must be stopped earlier than the following ones, and the last hangers remain in the developer a little longer, eg. N+1.

[Tin Can]

My recently posted self portrait was shot with Delta 100 processed by gas burst at 1/100 Rodinol 15 minutes

I use Rodinol on Hp5 and Fp4 also

[Bill Burk]

I use D-76 1:1 with Kodak films but I think the ideas might be the same.

I develop to contrast, if you do Zone System, you would be finding N times.

As such every factor I alter is included in my results.

I make more than a gallon stock D-76 because I like to fill four quart bottles to the top. So off the bat my "stock" isn't like anyone else's.

I mix this stock 1:1 to develop film and I fill the tank and develop as many rolls of film will fit. For 4x5 I develop seven sheets in a tray of 16 ounces (8+8). That's one Grafmatic + a sensitometry sheet.

That's certainly less than 2 ounces stock for a 4x5 sheet.

My standard development time is 13:30 at 68-degrees F to achieve 0.62 contrast index.

I call that N.

I would recommend that you do Zone System tests, if that's your plan anyway, and find N.

That time to develop for N is what is likely to vary because you didn't give enough stock solution for each sheet.

I really believe one of the main reasons to recommend stock solution per sheet square inches is so that recommended development times can be published and relied-upon. I don't think a slight dilution change will significantly affect grain structure, speed, etc.

Once you decide to do your own development time testing, you can choose an arbitrary amount of stock solution per square inch, and then to keep your tests valid, be consistent.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Thank you very much, Bill!

So I will start with 50ml (~2 ounces) of developer and 150ml (~6 ounces) of water per 4x5 sheet (dilution 1+3), being on the safer side. Whether there is enough developer per film will be seen in the N+1 and N+2 development. I'll just see how the curve from VII to X progresses. If it flattens out too much in N+ while it rises at N, there will probably be not enough developer. If it is similar to the curve in N, the amount of developer is probably correct.

Tschau zäme


I use D-76 1:1 with Kodak films but I think the ideas might be the same.

I develop to contrast, if you do Zone System, you would be finding N times.

As such every factor I alter is included in my results.

I make more than a gallon stock D-76 because I like to fill four quart bottles to the top. So off the bat my "stock" isn't like anyone else's.

I mix this stock 1:1 to develop film and I fill the tank and develop as many rolls of film will fit. For 4x5 I develop seven sheets in a tray of 16 ounces (8+8). That's one Grafmatic + a sensitometry sheet.

That's certainly less than 2 ounces stock for a 4x5 sheet.

My standard development time is 13:30 at 68-degrees F to achieve 0.62 contrast index.

I call that N.

I would recommend that you do Zone System tests, if that's your plan anyway, and find N.

That time to develop for N is what is likely to vary because you didn't give enough stock solution for each sheet.

I really believe one of the main reasons to recommend stock solution per sheet square inches is so that recommended development times can be published and relied-upon. I don't think a slight dilution change will significantly affect grain structure, speed, etc.

Once you decide to do your own development time testing, you can choose an arbitrary amount of stock solution per square inch, and then to keep your tests valid, be consistent.

[Jim Noel]

The total quantity of developer is not the point, it is the amount of developer concentrate which is important, regardless of dilution.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

The total quantity of developer is not the point, it is the amount of developer concentrate which is important, regardless of dilution.

Of course! You are absolutely right. That's why I asked what the minimum quantity is. When I read the ID11 datasheet that talks about 10 films in 1000ml stock solution, I think the minimum amount per film is 100ml stock solution, for 135/36 films. That makes 33ml per 4x5 sheet. So if I dilute 50ml stock solution with 150ml water for 1+3, I should be on the safe side, right?

[Huub]

Of course! You are absolutely right. That's why I asked what the minimum quantity is. When I read the ID11 datasheet that talks about 10 films in 1000ml stock solution, I think the minimum amount per film is 100ml stock solution, for 135/36 films. That makes 33ml per 4x5 sheet. So if I dilute 50ml stock solution with 150ml water for 1+3, I should be on the safe side, right?

Indeed you would be on the safe side. I think you can go down to 25ml per sheet of 4x5 film as it is generally accepted that one 135 film is more or less equivalent to one 120 film, to one sheet of 8x10 and to four sheets of 4x5 film.

[justleicaman]

I use homemade dev tubes which requires 80ml of the developer. I don't use D76 per se but 1:4 mix of DDX with HP5 with constant rotation does the trick for one-shot development.