Copal No 1 Shutter Stopped Firing

[bcushwa]

I picked up a new (to me) 210 f/5.6 lens with a Copal Number 1 shutter yesterday. I tested the shutter in the store several times and everything seemed to work just fine, but when I got it home the shutter would cock and make noises like it was firing when I activated it, but the shutter blades no longer opened. The preview switch is in the taking position, the cocking lever returns normally, and I can hear what sounds like the appropriate noises when cocking it and firing it. Everything seems perfectly normal except the shutter blades don't move when I fire it. The shutter blades do still open perfectly smoothly when I flip the preview switch. The aperture ring moves freely, but the shutter speed ring is a bit stiffer than I'm used to. Also, the shutter will trigger a flash when set to M, but not when set to X.

It just stopped opening right after I tested and bought it, which is insanely frustrating. (And of course...no returns....)

Any help would be appreciated. I've looked around for folks who have had similar problems, but mostly I found shutter blades that were stuck completely (they don't open in preview mode) or weren't winding/working mechanically. It's an older model with the X/M switch and the preview switch has three distinct positions, which is something I'm not familiar with.

Thanks.


EDIT: Photos for reference. The serial number is 70005591.

210739

210740

210741

[mpirie]

If you bought from a store, surely they would take a return or repair?

Clearly it wasn't fit for purpose. Check local consumer laws.

Mike

[bcushwa]

If I had bought it at a camera store, I'd agree with you.

However, I bought it at a flea market / antique store. They have a strict "no return" policy on all sales, which is pretty much standard practice on these stores around here. I know this raises a lot of red flags, but I've bought several items from this particular dealer and haven't had any issues until now.

[Chauncey Walden]

What is the 3rd position of the preview switch? I found this but it may not have anything to do with your problem: The traditional way of working is to open the shutter for viewing, then close the shutter before setting the shutter speed and aperture, and only then cock the shutter just before releasing the shutter. This is trouble free. Apparently with the workflow of digital shooting with a CCD-back always in place, it is tempting to cock the shutter directly after the shot, and perform time adjustments after that. On itself this is OK, but once the shutter is cocked, and then the shutter opening lever is opened for viewing and the shutter speed setting ring is being used, the mechanism will be destroyed after some time. This can be noticed also because the time setting travels very difficult and stiff in that case.

[Paul Ron]

try all the positions of that switch? maybe fiddeling with it you will discover the proper setting.

if it worked before n its still working in preview... its something you may have changed n not damaged.

just follow the work flow walden sugests above.

[bcushwa]

One position is "open" and the shutter release is locked (this is the traditional "preview" setting), one position is "closed" and the shutter release is free to move after you cock it (this is the traditional "taking" setting) and there's a stop in the middle that seems very much like the "taking" setting, except that the shutter blades don't always close all of the way.

I typically shoot (and generally handle LF lenses) in the manner you described: set adjustments to time and aperture, switch to "taking", cock the shutter and fire. I generally try to avoid changing the timing setting after I've cocked the shutter.

I am more and more curious about the third setting in the middle, I've never encountered or even heard of another shutter that has that. If I was dealing with some obscure manufacturer, sure, but Copal shutters are pretty much ubiquitous.

[BrianShaw]

It may feel like a third (center) position but I think it’s not really.

[bcushwa]

I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to be, but there is a definite stop there.

Quick update: I connected a flash to it and the flash triggered when the shutter was set to M (for older bulb flashes) but it did not trigger when set to X (for modern electronic flashes). Not sure what this means, but it's one more piece to the puzzle.

[BrianShaw]

Chances are highe that a good old fashioned shutter overhaul is in order...

[Louis Pacilla]

Chances are highe that a good old fashioned shutter overhaul is in order...

+1

[bcushwa]

Chances are highe that a good old fashioned shutter overhaul is in order...

That's what I'm beginning to believe as well. I have experience servicing lenses, but these shutters seem *far* more complicated and I don't want to risk making things worse.

Any recommendations for a good repair shop?

[Bob Salomon]

That's what I'm beginning to believe as well. I have experience servicing lenses, but these shutters seem *far* more complicated and I don't want to risk making things worse.

Any recommendations for a good repair shop?

Pro Photo in DC. Or Pro Camera in Charlottesville are excellent and near you.

[reddesert]

One position is "open" and the shutter release is locked (this is the traditional "preview" setting), one position is "closed" and the shutter release is free to move after you cock it (this is the traditional "taking" setting) and there's a stop in the middle that seems very much like the "taking" setting, except that the shutter blades don't always close all of the way.

I typically shoot (and generally handle LF lenses) in the manner you described: set adjustments to time and aperture, switch to "taking", cock the shutter and fire. I generally try to avoid changing the timing setting after I've cocked the shutter.

I am more and more curious about the third setting in the middle, I've never encountered or even heard of another shutter that has that. If I was dealing with some obscure manufacturer, sure, but Copal shutters are pretty much ubiquitous.

I just tried this with a very similar looking Copal shutter (like yours it has the two aperture scales, probably originally for a convertible Symmar), and there is a little detent between the two positions of the preview lever. Pushing the preview lever to this detent moves the blades a little but doesn't open them. I don't think this is a real setting for anything and would avoid it.

[Jim Andrada]

Carol Miller Flutot's camera repair does great work on shutters.

[bcushwa]

Okay, so a bit more background on this before continuing.

When I bought my camera, it came with a Rodenstock 210mm f/6.8 lens mounted in a Copal No.1 shutter. I found a good deal (or what I thought was a good deal) on a Schneider-Krueznach 210mm f/5.6 also mounted in a Copal No.1 shutter (albeit an older one). My intention was to sell the Rodenstock lens to help recoup the costs of the Schneider, but unfortunately the shutter in the Schneider stopped working. It's this shutter that this post is all about.

I've priced out repair costs, and they seem awfully high for something that I was planning on recouping the costs of. So, I'm taking the opportunity (and cutting my losses) to try my hand at fixing the shutter that came with the Schneider. I swapped the Schneider optics into the shutter that came with the Rodenstock, and that all works wonderfully (aside from the aperture scale being off) so I still have some higher quality glass to try out.

I've gotten the front plate of the shutter off and verified that there is nothing loose rattling around inside. I take this as a good sign because hopefully that means that something is just misaligned or out of place; I was worried that something had broken off and would need to be replaced. After I reassembled everything I tried firing it and the shutter blades moved a smidge but still didn't open. I can't recall if they did that before or not, but I'll take that as a good sign because at the very least nothing is more broken then when I tried.

I can't do much more than that without a different screwdriver: all of the screwdrivers that I have that are fine enough to remove any of the internals are much too narrow and would most definitely mar the screws.

I'll try to post some pictures later tonight.

[Tin Can]

Find any shims?

Don't lose them if you do