Uneven Development -- 5X7's in Stearman Press 8X10 Tray

[ChristopherMarv]

Anyone else have this issue? If you look carefully, you will notice three overdeveloped vertical bands. I think that the plastic tabs on the lid of the tray cause channels to develop, leading to this problem.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50397303811/

[Bertha DeCool]

I've had good results w/ 5x7s. How are you agitating?
I agitate by tilting, alternating side-to-side and front-to-back and I'm barely lifting, less than an inch.
I'm guessing you might be a little aggressive agitating and/or only going one direction?
I'm really happy with the SP tray; I'd like to be able to develop more than 2 sheets at a whack but it's not happening in my house right now so the SP is perfect.

[Vaughn]

Another possibility: Way back when I first started tray developing 8x10s, I would leave a freshly fixed negative in a tray of water in an 8x10 Patterson tray (emulsion up, long time, with no aggitation while I developed more film) -- I got similar marks on my film that matched the channels on the tray bottom on the backside of the negative. My guess was uneven removal of the anti-halation layer that I could not get to even out with more soaking. There was slightly more density on the negatives where the film was not over the channels...creating lighter areas such as on your prints.

[ChristopherMarv]

I've had good results w/ 5x7s. How are you agitating?
I agitate by tilting, alternating side-to-side and front-to-back and I'm barely lifting, less than an inch.
I'm guessing you might be a little aggressive agitating and/or only going one direction?
I'm really happy with the SP tray; I'd like to be able to develop more than 2 sheets at a whack but it's not happening in my house right now so the SP is perfect.

Gentle "panning for gold" agitation technique for the first thirty seconds and then for about ten seconds each minute. I believe that the total development time for the picture that I linked to was 8 minutes.

The problem seems to occur randomly. I developed this one, and it came out relatively evenly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50585203731/

There was a similar sheet developed with it which came out with the same wavy development problem as the first picture!

[ChristopherMarv]

Another possibility: Way back when I first started tray developing 8x10s, I would leave a freshly fixed negative in a tray of water in an 8x10 Patterson tray (emulsion up, long time, with no aggitation while I developed more film) -- I got similar marks on my film that matched the channels on the tray bottom on the backside of the negative. My guess was uneven removal of the anti-halation layer that I could not get to even out with more soaking. There was slightly more density on the negatives where the film was not over the channels...creating lighter areas such as on your prints.

Intriguing idea. In this case, the channels I'm referring to are on the emulsion side. "Channels" was probably not the best term. I should have said that the plastic hold-down tabs cause currents to develop.

[Nodda Duma]

I was talking to Tim once about this topic and I think he has determined that development issues in the tank have consistently come from too gentle of agitation.

Personally I pick the tank up and rock it around when I agitate. I haven’t seen uneven development issues. (B&W, E-6, C-41, etc)

[Bertha DeCool]

Gentle "panning for gold" agitation technique for the first thirty seconds and then for about ten seconds each minute. I believe that the total development time for the picture that I linked to was 8 minutes.

The problem seems to occur randomly. I developed this one, and it came out relatively evenly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50585203731/

There was a similar sheet developed with it which came out with the same wavy development problem as the first picture!

I'm curious if the issue has been with both sheets or if it's been with the sheet near the fill/pour end or the "back" end and if that that's been consistent.
I never panned for gold but I would think the channels would cause the effect from the developer running length-wise, which corresponds with the direction of the streaks.
Interesting comment from Nodda as that seems counter-intuitive to me (tho' at 62, there's a LOT that seems that way...). I would shoot a grey card and experiment with more/less agitation and chemical flow direction/agitation.
That image of the reservoir is gorgeous, btw; we see things in a similar way.

[Exploring Large Format]

In Tim's latest video (a new beginner's guide) on the SP-445, he discusses infrequent issues caused by what he thinks is inadequate washing out of the anti-halation dye causing film to stick. Suggests it's due to water supply with water softener. Solution is extra washing. This is about 26:30 into the video.

https://youtu.be/Uojra1s1HrI

Not sure whether this necessarily relates to your issue. Different tank, etc.

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[tim48v]

Gentle "panning for gold" agitation technique for the first thirty seconds and then for about ten seconds each minute. I believe that the total development time for the picture that I linked to was 8 minutes.

The problem seems to occur randomly. I developed this one, and it came out relatively evenly:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50585203731/

There was a similar sheet developed with it which came out with the same wavy development problem as the first picture!

Thinking about it, "panning for gold" is probably an inaccurate description. The actual gold panners I've seen tend to setup a rhythmic pattern, which works for finding gold but we want a more random pattern. I'll pickup the tray, and "swish" it one direction (say clockwise) for a few seconds and then side to side etc. The more random the better. The next cycle I'll start the swish the other direction.

A lot of people just pick up one side of the tray and then lower it.

You want to be particularly random during the first 30 seconds; that's when most of your development takes place.

Tim

[ChristopherMarv]

Thanks, everyone. After a horrific experience with B's 5X7 reel, I decided to give the SP-810 another try. I developed two sheets in 1020ml of Rodinal (1:50) and used a semi-random agitating technique, lifting the tray from the surface at each of the four sides and each of the four corners (while holding down the opposite corner). Total development time was 13 minutes, agitating for the first 30 seconds and then every minute for 10 to 15 seconds. Both of the negatives came out of the tank with even development.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50660626512/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35702178@N00/50658349276/

Unfortunately, I changed several variables at once (agitation technique, developer, developer amount and development time), so I'm not sure which ones make the difference. My feeling right now is that the SP-810 is a good daylight option.

[Bertha DeCool]

"I developed two sheets in 1020ml of Rodinal (1:50)"

You can easily cut the amount of developer you used in half, Stearman recommends 500ml. I use Rodinal as well 500 ml to 10ml.

Glad it's working out better for you, in my situation it is the perfect solution. And they're really nice folks too.

[esearing]

If using dilute developers a good 2 minute initial gentle to moderate agitation takes care of most uneven development issues no matter what tank you use. A 5 minute prewash/soak also helps with Ilford films to remove the dye.

[otto.f]

If using dilute developers a good 2 minute initial gentle to moderate agitation takes care of most uneven development issues no matter what tank you use. A 5 minute prewash/soak also helps with Ilford films to remove the dye.

I do that with Pancro400 too, since I once saw what came off

[Gary L. Quay]

I've been having the same issues. I have a much smaller darkroom than I used to, so I had to part with my Jobo, and got a SP-810. I've had nothing but trouble with it so far: Uneven development, and negatives sliding under the hold-downs under the lid. That said, I've always had trouble with uneven skies. I used to agitate too quickly. I started agitating more gently, and I've been trying to get the right equipment, and find the right technique, and stick with it. I'm going to try a more random agitation. There's some good info in this thread.

[ChristopherMarv]

I've been having the same issues. I have a much smaller darkroom than I used to, so I had to part with my Jobo, and got a SP-810. I've had nothing but trouble with it so far: Uneven development, and negatives sliding under the hold-downs under the lid. That said, I've always had trouble with uneven skies. I used to agitate too quickly. I started agitating more gently, and I've been trying to get the right equipment, and find the right technique, and stick with it. I'm going to try a more random agitation. There's some good info in this thread.

Unfortunately, my original problem has recurred, even with the revised agitation technique. The sky seems to be a particularly problematic area. I've basically given up on the Stearman Press tray and will continue to try reels for Paterson tanks and the "taco" method. This is very discouraging. If you find something that works, let me know! Good luck.

[otto.f]

Unfortunately, my original problem has recurred, even with the revised agitation technique. The sky seems to be a particularly problematic area. I've basically given up on the Stearman Press tray and will continue to try reels for Paterson tanks and the "taco" method. This is very discouraging. If you find something that works, let me know! Good luck.

Thanks for sharing this!

[Nodda Duma]

Unfortunately, my original problem has recurred, even with the revised agitation technique. The sky seems to be a particularly problematic area. I've basically given up on the Stearman Press tray and will continue to try reels for Paterson tanks and the "taco" method. This is very discouraging. If you find something that works, let me know! Good luck.

Did you try picking it up *completely off the countertop* and rocking it around? This and 500ml of developer works for me with B&W, C-41, E-6, etc. It’s the same equipment as yours, so it’s fair to say it comes down to agitation.

[Michael R]

I can offer some personal experience based on a lot of testing I did a few years back on different sheet film processing methods. I was trying to determine which method(s) work best in relation to development uniformity.

Long story short, I found this type of development (ie horizontal in trays, and moving the tray for agitation) was bad, no matter what kind of setup, agitation method/frequency, type of tray, size of tray, dividers, no dividers etc. I would love for this method to work, and in “thought experiments” it seems like it should work, so it was both surprising and depressing, but no matter how many times I repeated the experiments the results were always the same.

If anyone is able to figure it out please let me know.

[md-photo]

I will second the "completely off the countertop". I do that agitation about 30s to start with and then 10-15s every 30s. I don't have 5X7 but I have set the SP-810 for 4X5. I have used it for both sheet film and dry plates in that size.

With sheet film the only issue I run into is the film on the far side from where I pour out ends up on top of the sheet closer to the spout. Probably each time I pour out each respective liquid the far sheet slides down with the angle. Despite that one issue, I have had more consistently even development in the 8X10 tray for the 4X5 sheets vs what I was seeing in the SP-445.

[ChristopherMarv]

Did you try picking it up *completely off the countertop* and rocking it around? This and 500ml of developer works for me with B&W, C-41, E-6, etc. It’s the same equipment as yours, so it’s fair to say it comes down to agitation.

Yes, unfortunately the agitation technique doesn’t seem to affect outcome.


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[tim48v]

I've been having the same issues. I have a much smaller darkroom than I used to, so I had to part with my Jobo, and got a SP-810. I've had nothing but trouble with it so far: Uneven development, and negatives sliding under the hold-downs under the lid. That said, I've always had trouble with uneven skies. I used to agitate too quickly. I started agitating more gently, and I've been trying to get the right equipment, and find the right technique, and stick with it. I'm going to try a more random agitation. There's some good info in this thread.

The negative should never slide under the hold down tabs! Check the lid to make sure it is completely flat (we've had one report of a warped lid.)

Tim

[tim48v]

Regarding agitation: how much liquid are you using? This is one case where too much is worse than too little! If you're familiar with wave dynamics, you'll remember that wave action is basically confined to the surface. By using more than 500ml, you'll get very little agitation at the bottom of the tray. In fact, we know of people using only 200ml and getting great results. Personally, I use around 350ml.

Tim

[mooresean68]

Probably a little late to this but and I use the sp8x10 tray as well with 5x7 so far so good after a few initial hiccups. What brings me to comment though is to suggest a possible light leak? I recently had one (see thread https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?161723-Diagnosing-over-exposed-band-through-the-middle-of-negative for images) which caused a similar banding, although more apparent, it was right through the middle in both vertical and horizontal positions.

I thought it was due to development technique, the tray, etc but come to find it was a leak where the bellows attach to the front standard. I'm only using the 475ml since I was kinda lazy having it all measured for the sp445 which I also use, and to see if I could get away with it which I do heh I get good coverage even with 475ml. For agitation, I "pan for gold" the first minute then lift the long edge, same for stop and fix.

The only real consistent issue I've had with the sp8x10 tray is if I don't tilt it forward when pouring the developer in I'll get three diagonal shadow lines on the corner near the spout but if I use Tim's suggested method of raising the back end while filling I don't get that behavior.

-Sean

[ChristopherMarv]

Probably a little late to this but and I use the sp8x10 tray as well with 5x7 so far so good after a few initial hiccups. What brings me to comment though is to suggest a possible light leak? I recently had one (see thread https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?161723-Diagnosing-over-exposed-band-through-the-middle-of-negative for images) which caused a similar banding, although more apparent, it was right through the middle in both vertical and horizontal positions.

I thought it was due to development technique, the tray, etc but come to find it was a leak where the bellows attach to the front standard. I'm only using the 475ml since I was kinda lazy having it all measured for the sp445 which I also use, and to see if I could get away with it which I do heh I get good coverage even with 475ml. For agitation, I "pan for gold" the first minute then lift the long edge, same for stop and fix.

The only real consistent issue I've had with the sp8x10 tray is if I don't tilt it forward when pouring the developer in I'll get three diagonal shadow lines on the corner near the spout but if I use Tim's suggested method of raising the back end while filling I don't get that behavior.

-Sean

My camera passed the flashlight test. It will be interesting to see whether other types of development tanks fail to cure the problem. My bellows were newly installed in 2019, so I would be quite disappointed if they were the issue!

Thank you.

[ChristopherMarv]

The negative should never slide under the hold down tabs! Check the lid to make sure it is completely flat (we've had one report of a warped lid.)

Tim

Also, check for the three center indents once you have your sheets loaded. If you can feel them, the sheets are far enough apart.