Seeking a newer 4x5 camera for mostly landscape

[gmfotografie]

Hi Guys, I want to buy a "newer" large Format camera for 4x5.

Can you recommend me a Linhof or another camera?
Light, Quick folding with Front and Back -> shift, tilt and swing possibility (mostly Landscape)

All the Best Michael

[Bob Salomon]

Hi Guys, I want to buy a "newer" large Format camera for 4x5.

Can you recommend me a Linhof or another camera?
Light, Quick folding with Front and Back -> shift, tilt and swing possibility (mostly Landscape)

All the Best Michael
LInhof .master classic
LInhof Super Technika iii
LInhof Super Technika IV
LInhof Super Technika V
LInhof Super Technika Classic
LInhof Classic or Classic, lll or lV or V WITHOUT RANGEFINDER

[gary mulder]

A Linhof Techno will not do 4x5

[Bob Salomon]

A Linhof Techno will not do 4x5

No, but a LInhof Technar does do 45 hand held.

[gmfotografie]

thx...!

do you have experience with the Master Technika 3000?

[Bob Salomon]

thx...!

do you have experience with the Master Technika 3000?

also all LInhof back to the early 60s.

[gmfotografie]

so i guess this lf camera is also quit good for landscape ... ?

[Bob Salomon]

so i guess this lf camera is also quit good for landscape ... ?

Technika work for Sexton, Barnbaum and thousands of others. So does the Technikardan.

[Gabe]

Technika work for Sexton, Barnbaum and thousands of others. So does the Technikardan.

Peter Dombrovskis also used a Master Technika during his whole career. David Ward is one very prominent user of the Technikardan.

I have a Technikardan S45 and find it to be superb for landscape. A little slower to set up than a Technika no doubt, but more versatile in terms of movements and lens possibilities.

[Corran]

so i guess this lf camera is also quit good for landscape ... ?

A cardboard box with a pinhole is good for landscape, depending on the photographer.

You comment you would like to buy a "newer" large format camera. I don't know if that means "new" new or just not a 100-year-old junker that needs a lot of work, which some enjoy restoring, while others want modern reliability.

If you mean NEW, let me suggest you save about $9,000 (or more) over a Linhof and buy a Chamonix, Shen-Hao, Toyo, Canham, Intrepid, etc. camera instead. I own 5 different Linhof large format cameras and they generally aren't my "first pick" for landscape. Sometimes they are really great for that, other times they are frustrating and limiting. Personally I would recommend a Chamonix first for someone wanting a full-featured and robust camera. Intrepid for someone who wants really light and cheap.

Don't forget that there is basically no "new" large format lenses available anymore.

[Oren Grad]

I've retitled the thread because "Techno" is a red herring and the discussion isn't about Linhof per se. Carry on!

[Ari]

Wista VX

[Sandro]

Hi Guys, I want to buy a "newer" large Format camera for 4x5.

Can you recommend me a Linhof or another camera?
Light, Quick folding with Front and Back -> shift, tilt and swing possibility (mostly Landscape)

All the Best Michael

If you will shoot landscape, maybe you could evaluate wooden cameras, which could be lighter than Linhof.
In this case you’d better select also lenses considering the weight: in a total LF backpack, the camera is only a part of the equation.

[denverjims]

Hi Michael,
You did not give a reason for limiting your question (originally) to only Lindhof. It would help us all to give better recommendations if you could give a little more information as to why you chose these as opposed to, for instance, some of the fine wood cameras. Is metal really a requirement? Just wanting to buy only the 'top of the line' brand for its promised quality?

Starting with your basic specifications for characteristics usually will end better for you.
Best, Jim

[denverjims]

By the way, Michael. I just noticed a thread which you might have already seen https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?160757-Metal-vs-Wood-cameras-advantages-disadvantages "Metal vs Wood cameras - advantages/disadvantages" which might be of help/interest to you.
Best, Jim

[mpirie]

do you have experience with the Master Technika 3000?
Not the 3000, but i've been using a 2000 on and off for 10+ years.

Legendary build quality, compact and sturdy. Good bellows extension 300mm - 400mm with ease.

Mike

[gmfotografie]

Thank you so much for all your answers!
I already have a 4x5 camera - a charmonix 45N-1
My goal is to get a more precise camera... Maybe I am only imagining this?!
Setting the Base or the Front is always a little bit tricky to get an absolute well aligned groundglas and/or lens.

[andrewd]

One way to get a ‘new’ Technika at a small fraction of the current list price is to buy a serviced camera from a Linhof dealer. If the bellows and ground glass are replaced and all of the mechanical components adjusted and lubricated there is almost no difference to a new camera. The design of these cameras has hardly changed in 60 years.

This is a picture of my ‘new’ Super Technika from 1968:
209164

[Greg Y]

Michael, having viewed some of your work, I'd suggest the Linhof Technikardan ....which straddles the line between a field camera and a monorail. From your architectural photos i can see why you might be seeking more precision.

[Bob Salomon]

One way to get a ‘new’ Technika at a small fraction of the current list price is to buy a serviced camera from a Linhof dealer. If the bellows and ground glass are replaced and all of the mechanical components adjusted and lubricated there is almost no difference to a new camera. The design of these cameras has hardly changed in 60 years.

This is a picture of my ‘new’ Super Technika from 1968:
209164

Except newer ones have more movements then older ones and cam coupling a V or Master is much easier then an older version.

[mpirie]

Michael, having viewed some of your work, I'd suggest the Linhof Technikardan ....which straddles the line between a field camera and a monorail. From your architectural photos i can see why you might be seeking more precision.
The Technikardan has it's foibles too.....it's heavier than the MT's but much more flexible (in the right way).

Packing and unpacking require care too if you are to avoid damaging the bellows (especially at the corners).

Mike

[Gabe]

Packing and unpacking require care too if you are to avoid damaging the bellows (especially at the corners).

I simply remove the bellows when packing the camera away. It literally takes seconds to attach or detach them, and they can be safely stored separately in a Novoflex wrap or similar.

[andrewd]

Except newer ones have more movements then older ones and cam coupling a V or Master is much easier then an older version.

I agree that it makes sense to get a V onwards (after 1963). If you really need the extra movements (architecture etc) then look at a Master from 1972 onwards. That’s still a multi decade window of used cameras which can be easily restored to new condition.

[Daniel Casper Lohenstein]

Hi Guys, I want to buy a "newer" large Format camera for 4x5.

Can you recommend me a Linhof or another camera?
Light, Quick folding with Front and Back -> shift, tilt and swing possibility (mostly Landscape)

All the Best Michael

How about a Horseman 45FA? It has nearly the same features as a Technika, but weighs only 2.4kg.

OK, you can only use Copal 0 and 1 lenses, up to 240mm, but you can focus up to 65mm without tools. For telephoto the Fujinon T 300 is sufficient. There are even extension boards to fit a Fujinon T 400 on the camera.

You have the technical adjustment on the back. The shift is geared, everything locks in the zero position. The focusing screen is bright.

The Horseman bellows are mostly bad today. But ecubuyonline on ebay has a very good Horseman bellows that costs 100 USD.

Only lenses with 46mm filter thread fit into the closed camera. Therefore you have to file in the focusing slider easily. But here are some very nice lenses: the Fujinon NW 105, 125, Fujinon A 180, Fujinon W 135 (single coated), Claron 150, ... these are all very light lenses. Together with a light carbon tripod you will have a very portable unit.

BTW. it's less expensive than a Technika. A good Horseman with a defective bellows costs about 500 USD. Add a new bellows for 100 USD and 250 USD for each lens.

[Gabe]

But ecubuyonline on ebay has a very good Horseman bellows that costs 100 USD.

It may be luck of the draw, but I recently bought a bag bellows for my Technikardan from this seller and had a nightmare experience. First they sent me the wrong bellows entirely, then the replacement I eventually received had junk frames which fit into the standards very poorly. I demanded a return and refund. The whole process wasted 6 weeks of my time also.

Just putting that out there as a cautionary tale.

[Joseph Kashi]

A Meridian B technical/press camera may be the best option. It is a very sturdy, US-Made late 1940s press camera with full movements, including back swing and tilt movements, die cast aluminum body, and a rangefinder. It's compact but sturdy. Avoid the A model, The B model is very full-featured and all-around better.

There's a rough copy currently on the auction site for $325, a fair price.

Here's the link https://www.ebay.com/itm/Meridian-B-4x5-Film-Press-Camera-Large-Format-Rare/202651537081?hash=item2f2ef90eb9:g:WlgAAOSwzwpdq2w5

Expect to pay another $175 to have it reconditioned, rangefinder repaired and calibrated, body CLA's

[otto.f]

You seem to have contradictory wishes. A Linhof is not light, but quick. A Chamonix is light but not very quick. My personal experience with a used Technika is that the rangefinder mostly does not work properly, the plates to guide to rangefinder are not there or not the right one for the lenses you’ve got. So that makes him less quick too. A Master Technika or a V is a very nice package to travel with but in practice they are not that fast is my experience. I’m happy with my Chamonix F2 now, because large format is never quick in the first place. That’s why I do it.

[Bob Salomon]

You seem to have contradictory wishes. A Linhof is not light, but quick. A Chamonix is light but not very quick. My personal experience with a used Technika is that the rangefinder mostly does not work properly, the plates to guide to rangefinder are not there or not the right one for the lenses you’ve got. So that makes him less quick too. A Master Technika or a V is a very nice package to travel with but in practice they are not that fast is my experience. I’m happy with my Chamonix F2 now, because large format is never quick in the first place. That’s why I do it.
Other then time or expense there is no reason For your Technika not having the proper cams. Service makes them very quickly for them very quickly for the V and Master.

[Helcio J Tagliolatto]

Don't forget that there is basically no "new" large format lenses available anymore.

This, definitely, hurts my naive hearth :(

[Robert Opheim]

I have been using a Technikardan for a number of years. I bought it for its versatility. There are many very fine cameras built - it depends what you want the camera to do. I shoot architecture (built form) and landscape the most. Prior to the Technikardan I had a couple of different rail cameras with fixed bellows. I could not get the perspective corrections that I wanted with these cameras - the standard bellows would not allow for the wide angle lens corrections that I wanted. I have used from 58mm to 450mm lenses on the Technikardan. The Technikardan bellows can be ruined by careless folding of the camera - the bellows are expensive. I take my regular bellows off for storage - 4 very quick flip latches and its off. The technikardan in not the lightest camera made - but nor are all of the lenses I use. The Technikardan can use up to a #3 shutter without issue. Larger shutters like #4 and #5 don't really fit - I would use a different camera (I use them on a 8x10 camera).
The Technika camera is a great camera too - if I was shooting mid-range lenses and not needing massive camera movements it would be my next choice. The Wista cameras and others are similar at a more reasonable priced. There are also very fine rail cameras like the Arca Swiss -and Sinar cameras.
It all comes down to what lenses/shutters you want to use, how far you are hiking with it (weight), if you want a bag-bellows or not, how long the bellows is for longer lenses, and cost. Also I would check out the lenses that you want to use. Several large newer lenses flare out at the end of the elements and may not fit the opening of a particular camera.

[sperdynamite]

Not to buck trends here but personally I can't imagine a better value proposition than the Chamonix line up. The Linhofs are very nice, but they're also very heavy. Most LF shooters I know are not actually beating their cameras against rocks if they can help it. While I can't pound nails with my Chamonix's, I don't find them to be under-built in any way. Plus you can use the $ you save on a superior ground glass, or other accessory.

But then I love wood field cameras, and have since I got my first Deardorf V8. Now I have a Chamonix 5x7N and 8x10V, and I'm quite happy with them.

[otto.f]

Other then time or expense there is no reason For your Technika not having the proper cams. Service makes them very quickly for them very quickly for the V and Master.

Thanks for this info, I will see if this counts in Holland too. My experience with a Technika is not very recent either.

[jose angel]

Thank you so much for all your answers!
I already have a 4x5 camera - a charmonix 45N-1
My goal is to get a more precise camera... Maybe I am only imagining this?!
Setting the Base or the Front is always a little bit tricky to get an absolute well aligned groundglas and/or lens.

Many good suggestions here. There is no perfect camera, so amongst the more "precise" options, you know you still have to accept some trades:
--Some lightweight monorails have positive detents, rigidity, precise and ample movements. Great if you don't mind about compactness and protection.
--Shell type foldings and press cameras have good detents (some even better than monorails), are compact, protected and much faster to use. In trade, lower decentering abilities and shorter bellows.
But I bet you already know all this.


So let's talk about my experience:

Once in the field, I sometimes prime speed (ease of use) and compactness, accepting a small penalization in weight and decentering abilities. My choice are press and metal field cameras. Reality is that I can live with the classic wide to short-tele setup in a vast majority of cases, with zero back tilt. Front swing or tilt can be performed, or a limited lens shift. Most of my field shots are taken this way.

But there are times that I want bellows versatility (to use really long or short lenses), back tilt or swing, and -very rare-, *extreme* decentering abilities. So I have then to use a lightweight/field type monorail. I think your Chamonix could suit this needs.

So one is not substitute of the other.

I understand the choice will depend on your specific intentions. Maybe it's time of press/metal field options.

[jose angel]

... My personal experience with a used Technika is that the rangefinder mostly does not work properly, the plates to guide to rangefinder are not there or not the right one for the lenses you’ve got. So that makes him less quick too. A Master Technika or a V is a very nice package to travel with but in practice they are not that fast is my experience...
I'd say the Technikas are both field and press type cameras. I never handhold it, nor use the rangefinder but the GG, so mine is a superb field camera, and not heavier than the others I have.
Cannot be faster; just press a button, open the bed and slide the front standard up to the lock. Ready to shoot. Think that the bed can be closed with a (small) lens attached.

Of course still not perfect... Back movements, shortest lenses (although depending on the version).

[Bernice Loui]

Go directly back to the lens choice and image goals, that essentially determines what cameras can be chosen.

Of the folder cameras used over the decades, the Canham DLC has been the best by FAR. This is after owning and using both 4x5 & 5x7 Linhof metal folders, Toyo 810M (remains the fave 8x10 folder), Dorf, Wisner, and many other wood folders. None remain today, only the Sinar system remains.

Opinion of Linhof remains, limited capability, excessively expensive for what it actually is and offers. The 6x9 technikardan is better than the 4x5 technikardan, light weight yes, due to it's light weight lacks sufficient stability and rigidity compared to a camera like Sinar Norma.

No long own any folder style cameras as how LF images made today do not require light weight, portability and ....


Bernice

[Gabe]

The 6x9 technikardan is better than the 4x5 technikardan

How, exactly? Apart from scale the two are of virtually identical design, the main difference being that the 6x9 has more limited movement capabilities. If you mean in terms of weight then the 4x5 is only 600g more (3.4 Kg vs 2.8 Kg), so hardly significant, especially when you get the ability to shoot both formats with the one larger camera.

[Bernice Loui]

Both are built essentially on the same sliding bottom rail with near identical standard movement mechanisms. The 6x9 being physically smaller is subjected to lower forces and smaller lenses often used for 6x9. The 4x5 variant requires larger rear standard frame, more weight. Lens accommodations are the same lens board for both except lenses for 4x5 tend to be larger for 4x5 which increased the stress-loading on the front standard.

Put a 12" Kodak Commercial Ektar in Ilex# 4 or 14" Brass Goerz APO artar in Ilex# 4 on that TK, rack it out.. not so stable.. or very possible not stable enough for comfort. The 6x9 version will not likely need to deal with BIG lenses like this and again the whole set up is physically smaller. Copal# 3 shutter on smaller lenses is typically the limit for the TK lens board.

Yes, test used the TK decades ago with the idea it would be the absolute ideal replacement for a Technika.. In real world use, the Technika proved to have better stability trading off the limitations inherent with a Technika.

Then there is $ and availability of accessories which are often pricy and not easily available. Given all that, Linhof stuff no longer interest me in any way as there are better value cameras and better cameras available today with better value.

In comparison, friend purchased a 4x5 Canham DLC new. We took it out for an extensive test run.. Worked GREAT for a light weight folder.

One hybrid worth mentioning, Toyo VX. It is a GOOD balance between a monorail -vs- folder.


Bernice


How, exactly? Apart from scale the two are of virtually identical design, the main difference being that the 6x9 has more limited movement capabilities. If you mean in terms of weight then the 4x5 is only 600g more (3.4 Kg vs 2.8 Kg), so hardly significant, especially when you get the ability to shoot both formats with the one larger camera.

[Bob Salomon]

How, exactly? Apart from scale the two are of virtually identical design, the main difference being that the 6x9 has more limited movement capabilities. If you mean in terms of weight then the 4x5 is only 600g more (3.4 Kg vs 2.8 Kg), so hardly significant, especially when you get the ability to shoot both formats with the one larger camera.

We are talking about the S models, not the original TK models.
Several differences between the 69 and 45 other then film size.
45 has a double recessed bellows much longer then the 69 yet collapses as tightly. Both have an optional rail to stabilize it with extreme extensions. The original TK had standards formed from one piece bent in an L shape that had to be perpendicular in 2 planes. The S has a 3 piece standard made from 2 straight extrusions and a joiner block. The original TK had a much smaller size front L then the rear L. The S has a much beefier front standard made from the same extrusions as the rear standard. The 45 has much more movements then the 69 although both have the same amount of tilts and swings.

[John Kasaian]

Roman Laranc is a Linhof landscape shooter.
Take a look:
https://www.romanloranc.com/
Admittedly it's the Indian, not the arrow, but the results he gets with his Linhof are pretty inspirational.

[Gabe]

We are talking about the S models, not the original TK models.
Several differences between the 69 and 45 other then film size.
45 has a double recessed bellows much longer then the 69 yet collapses as tightly. Both have an optional rail to stabilize it with extreme extensions. The original TK had standards formed from one piece bent in an L shape that had to be perpendicular in 2 planes. The S has a 3 piece standard made from 2 straight extrusions and a joiner block. The original TK had a much smaller size front L then the rear L. The S has a much beefier front standard made from the same extrusions as the rear standard. The 45 has much more movements then the 69 although both have the same amount of tilts and swings.

Yes I realise the S models were being discussed. I'm also aware of the other differences you mention. I just found the statement that the 6x9 version is "better" than the 4x5 to be odd, and really quite subjective; it all depends what one's priorities and requirements for the camera are, after all.

[Rod Klukas]

Look at the Arca-Swiss 4x5 F-Line field. Collapsible rail. Very fast. Best screen, very efficient.

[John Layton]

Probably just me...but in the realm of landscape - in fact, in just about all but architectural photography - I've often found "ball and spring" detents a bit of a pain to work around...particularly when "fine tuning" rotational adjustments which are just slightly off axis, as the force required to get the ball to overcome its "keeper" can make it difficult to achieve quick, smooth, and precise adjustments. Again...probably just me.