Shutter for Heliar 300mm 4.5

[fwaeyten]

Hi,

I recently started in LF and got myself a 8x10 camera. I been reading a lot, but obviously I still got a lot to learn as well. First of all, this forum is a great resource, so thanks to all who contribute!
Now for the question: I'm looking for a couple of lenses to add to the arsenal and I got my eyes on a Heliar 300mm 4.5, which is apparently a wonderful lens. This lens doesn't have any shutter, but it seems there are options to add one.
Can someone shed some light on this ( I come from smaller size photography where either the camera or the lens got a shutter)? Is it just a matter of finding the right diameter shutter and screw the shutter on the lens as an add-on?
In this case: any recommendations? I know I can just put a cap with times > 1sec, but I don't want to be limited by this.

Thanks!

Filip

[Oslolens]

Worst case you need to have it in hand and measure with threads measuring tool. My 300 f4.5 velostigmat have new threads mounted inside the Ilex #5. It will be less expensive to wait for a shutter-mounted lens, if new threads are needed.

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[Carsten Wolff]

if you really like the lens and are stuck for a matching shutter, you could get a Packard-Ideal Shutter for it. If you're mainly in a studio (i.e. you control the light) you can get a flash-synchronized Packard and potentially shoot at almost any aperture you like, although the main reason one would want a long f/4.5 is to use it open or near-open with limited DOF. Added flexibility is offered by use of a variable ND filter... Anyway, I came into an (unmarked, "A.M.") 14" Cooke Aviar that's set up like that and that works very well for me.

[mhayashi]

The heliar 300mm f4.5 could be found in a Compound V shutter like the images below.
https://www.google.co.jp/search?q=compound+v+shutter+heliar+300&tbm=isch&hl=en-jp&tbs&client=safari&prmd=isvn&hl=en-GB&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7-PK1otLsAhXSZ94KHUgaCGYQ2p8EegQIARAD&biw=375&bih=548

Since the heliar 300mm/f4.5 would be 66.7mm (please check the actual diameter of the rear element) < 75mm which is the shutter size of sinar copal shutter,
you could mount the lens in front of the sinar copal shutter and for other barrel lenses you may consider in future.
My example is as below. The adapter depends on your camera.
https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?158187-Sharing-mounting-the-sinar-copal-shutter-on-arca-swiss-cameras&highlight=sinar+copal+shutter

Also check out the S.K.Grimes site.
https://skgrimes.com/products/

[fwaeyten]

It seems that the Compound V shutter is the way to go. I also have to read about the Sinar... (apparently lens barrel is 90mm)
Here is some interesting stuff I have found:

https://www.angusparkerphoto.com/blog/2017/2/how-to-put-a-barrel-lens-in-a-shutter

[Bernice Loui]

If you're wanting to tinker with barrel lenses, best to get a Sinar camera with Sinar shutter and be done with it. More than just the need for a shutter, there are other camera related items like bellows length or bag bellows, how long can the camera be extended, possible accessories and LOTs more.

Lens boards are another consideration along with size-weight of lens the camera can properly support.

Last, if you're new to LF, why 8x10?


Bernice

[Ken Lee]

Another vote for the Sinar Shutter. I owned a lovely 300mm Braunschweig Heliar and had a local machine shop mount it to a Sinar board.

It worked effortlessly with a Sinar Shutter, along with many other barrel-mounted lenses that I was able to experiment with over the years.

The savings were considerable, and I was able to take advantage of each lens's original rounded aperture, one of the reasons for using old lenses.

See this brief article (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/#Vintage) and you're recognize your 300mm Heliar lens on the left with its lovely iris which is circular at all settings.

Given the price of 8x10 film, Bernice's point is very well taken: just get a Sinar Camera with a Sinar Shutter and you won't have to worry if the camera is sturdy or rigid enough either.

You might find this brief article (http://www.kennethleegallery.com/html/lenses/#Shutter) helpful.

[Tin Can]

How can a Sinar shoot really big lenses?

405 Kodak, 14.5" SF II Cooke, 14" Verito require a bigger 8X10 lensboard and a very strong support

I know Ken Lee shot a 610 Nikkor with Sinar and that's why I bought one, but that lens is lightweight

[Tin Can]

BTW, I have all 4 of those lenses, Sinar shutter and a Norma

I use a stronger camera with Packard shutter as it has a wider aperture

[Bernice Loui]

300mm Heliar not spec'ed ( 250mm ~ 280mm, 8x10 demands at least 312mm) to cover 8x10 at infinity, might be ok for 8x10 at shorter image distances.

https://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?103755-Lens-Image-Circle-Chart-From-Linhoff-Book&highlight=linhof

https://www.arnecroell.com/voigtlaender.pdf


Bernice

[Dan Dozer]

I was going to say the same thing as Bernice. You might want to consider the 360mm Heliar - that is what I use on my 8 x 10. You might not get much movement at all with the 300mm.

[fwaeyten]

If you're wanting to tinker with barrel lenses, best to get a Sinar camera with Sinar shutter and be done with it. More than just the need for a shutter, there are other camera related items like bellows length or bag bellows, how long can the camera be extended, possible accessories and LOTs more.

Lens boards are another consideration along with size-weight of lens the camera can properly support.

Last, if you're new to LF, why 8x10?


Bernice

I have a Svedovsky 8x10 which is quite sturdy. It comes with 140mm x 140mm lensboards which seem to be Sinar size. According to Svedovsky they are likely to fit.
Why 8x10? Because I can do contact prints and I want to do wet plate as well. I know that for wet plate I don’t need a shutter, but want to see if I could use it for film as well.
I know 8x10 is more expensive, but it seems to be the perfect intersection between LF and ULF ( usability and results). Personal opinion of course, which is subject to change 😉

[fwaeyten]

This isn’t meant as publicity, but here’s some comments on the stability of the Svedovsky and the compatibility with Sinar: http://svedovsky.com/svedovsky-8x10-first-look/

[Oslolens]

This isn’t meant as publicity, but here’s some comments on the stability of the Svedovsky and the compatibility with Sinar: http://svedovsky.com/svedovsky-8x10-first-look/Read through, no mention of the Sinar shutter, which in my opinion is the only reason for the "tiny" 140mm sinar lens board. A Linhof Kardan at 162mm is still on the small side, I could barely fit my 480mm inside. Else a good read.

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[fwaeyten]

Read through, no mention of the Sinar shutter, which in my opinion is the only reason for the "tiny" 140mm sinar lens board. A Linhof Kardan at 162mm is still on the small side, I could barely fit my 480mm inside. Else a good read.



Yes, no mention of the shutter, hence my remark that I would have to look into it. I don't know if the lensboard size has anything to do with the shutter compatibility. Shutters seem to go everywhere: in front, behine, in the middle ;)
Since there seem to be various sinar shutters I'm also not sure which one to get.

Here's another source of info I found: https://www.timlaytonfineart.com/sinar-copal-shutter

[Tin Can]

Not to beat a dead horse, but only Packard is still making new shutters just as they have since 1885

https://packardshutter.com/

I have bought bulb and hose from the seller, which are the best made, I highly suggest OE Bulbs

and I have 2 NOS shutters in box, but bought many used

I had trouble at first with using the bulb as my hands were weak, but I fixed that personal problem

I have installed Flash Sync with Microswitches easily, the modern switches are $2, the OE Sync does work but many don't have it

IF you buy a Sinar shutter make sure it has the cables, they are rare

[Oslolens]

Not to beat a dead horse, but only Packard is still making new shutters just as they have since 1885

https://packardshutter.com/

IF you buy a Sinar shutter make sure it has the cables, they are rare

I will consider packard, thank you!

The Chinese Sinar shutter release do work, and might be a small spare: tiny, but short. $57.95

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[Bernice Loui]

WP and contact prints ok, now where and what kind of images are your goals?

If you've never done sheet film before, know there is a STEEP learning curve and the learning curve is made steeper and more $ due to film size. IMO, many reasons to start with a smaller sheet film format size, then move up once the basics skills and needs are well understood and well practiced.

As for camera, it goes back again to what the image goals are. What lenses are required to produce the images in mind. If the exposure times are long, using the lens cap with a stop watch works good, no shutter needed.

No folder-field camera of the same film format size will be more sturdy than a GOOD monorail camera. Monorail cameras have less of a weight-bulk restriction allowing them to be built a LOT more stout than a field folder which is often specifically designed to be light weight, easily portable and folds up for transport. In the case of Sinar, it is modular like Lego, film formats can be interchanged easily. Specific to the Sinar P, the front standard is rated to support about 8 pounds of lens in front. Rear standard can be used to support small video cameras and such or the 8x10 P rear standard can be modified to larger than 8x10 by adapting film back and bellows. All this comes at the cost of size, weight, reduced portability and related.

There is no camera that is meets both requirements with perfection, it is ALL a set of trade offs. This is why figuring out what the image goals are is SO important making the camera choice being of far less importance as it is (said many, many times here) really a light tight box that is flexi in the middle with both ends adjustable and ideally stable.

What about tripod, light meter, film holders, dark cloth, ground glass magnifier, transport case and all other items related to making any sheet film images?

IMO, the Svedovsky 8x10 at $4100 USD is over priced as there are SO many excellent used view cameras on the market for far less $.

Save your $ for film, chemistry, print making goods and related image making items as this is where the real cost of doing LF is and where light can be coaxed into producing expressive images.


Bernice




I have a Svedovsky 8x10 which is quite sturdy. It comes with 140mm x 140mm lensboards which seem to be Sinar size. According to Svedovsky they are likely to fit.
Why 8x10? Because I can do contact prints and I want to do wet plate as well. I know that for wet plate I don’t need a shutter, but want to see if I could use it for film as well.
I know 8x10 is more expensive, but it seems to be the perfect intersection between LF and ULF ( usability and results). Personal opinion of course, which is subject to change ��

[fwaeyten]

WP and contact prints ok, now where and what kind of images are your goals?

If you've never done sheet film before, know there is a STEEP learning curve and the learning curve is made steeper and more $ due to film size. IMO, many reasons to start with a smaller sheet film format size, then move up once the basics skills and needs are well understood and well practiced.

As for camera, it goes back again to what the image goals are. What lenses are required to produce the images in mind. If the exposure times are long, using the lens cap with a stop watch works good, no shutter needed.

No folder-field camera of the same film format size will be more sturdy than a GOOD monorail camera. Monorail cameras have less of a weight-bulk restriction allowing them to be built a LOT more stout than a field folder which is often specifically designed to be light weight, easily portable and folds up for transport. In the case of Sinar, it is modular like Lego, film formats can be interchanged easily. Specific to the Sinar P, the front standard is rated to support about 8 pounds of lens in front. Rear standard can be used to support small video cameras and such or the 8x10 P rear standard can be modified to larger than 8x10 by adapting film back and bellows. All this comes at the cost of size, weight, reduced portability and related.

There is no camera that is meets both requirements with perfection, it is ALL a set of trade offs. This is why figuring out what the image goals are is SO important making the camera choice being of far less importance as it is (said many, many times here) really a light tight box that is flexi in the middle with both ends adjustable and ideally stable.

What about tripod, light meter, film holders, dark cloth, ground glass magnifier, transport case and all other items related to making any sheet film images?

IMO, the Svedovsky 8x10 at $4100 USD is over priced as there are SO many excellent used view cameras on the market for far less $.

Save your $ for film, chemistry, print making goods and related image making items as this is where the real cost of doing LF is and where light can be coaxed into producing expressive images.


Bernice

Thanks for your concern :).
First of all, the svedovsky cost me 2000 Euro ( I have ordered it 6 months ago), new. I don't know where you got the 4100 price from (http://svedovsky.com/cameras/8x10-camera/). I preferred a new camera and did research before I bought it. I prefer not to get into a new system only to find out that parts are no longer made and then having to pay an arm and a leg on second hand stuff because it's rare.
I have gotten a Gitzo tripod on ebay, I have several light meters, a dark cloth, a magnifier, film holders etc... I have already developed my first few sheets with success, it's not rocket science and I think I have the basic skills . I have been doing my own film development for a couple of years now (35mm and Medium), so I am not a complete beginner. I have taken workshops for wet plate so I know how that process works and I have the materials, although I must admit I haven't made my own chemicals yet. So I want to do primarily portraits, both film and wet plate or even other alternative processes, with the occasional landscape.
I prefer to pay a little more for good gear that lasts longer and is a joy to work with than turn every penny and suffer and give up. I fully appreciate that there are a lot of great old camera's around, but so far it seems I made a good choice with the Svedovsky. It is compatibe with sinar stuff, toyo film holders I bought second hand work great and the support I got so far is good.
I am not scared by a steep learning curve, nor am I scared to ask questions, so voila.

[Bernice Loui]

If the Svedovsky 8x10 works with the Sinar shutter, get a Sinar shutter, select your optics and make images.
Not a lot more to discuss.


Bernice

[Steven Tribe]

The “right” Heliar for 8x10” is the 360mm.

The Sinar shutter is super for barrel lenses. But best on a Period Sinar system or one of the few modern camera Systems designed to accept the genial shutter. Packard is fine for slow emulsions but not for normal speeds unless you are happy with ND filters. Remember that many Converts to wet plate do loose interest quite rapidly.

[fwaeyten]

The “right” Heliar for 8x10” is the 360mm.

The Sinar shutter is super for barrel lenses. But best on a Period Sinar system or one of the few modern camera Systems designed to accept the genial shutter. Packard is fine for slow emulsions but not for normal speeds unless you are happy with ND filters. Remember that many Converts to wet plate do loose interest quite rapidly.

It looks like the Svedovsky accepts it, so I will give it a try in combination with the Iris lens board from chamonix. Like this I could have a system with a universal board/shutter that accepts most lenses. I will post my results when I got the stuff. Out of curiosity, why is the 360 the "right" Heliar?

[Steven Tribe]

It is right because of having coverage for 8x10 - whilst the 300mm Heliar was designed for 16x21cm - close to full plate size. This applies to both the original Heliar design and the later Dynar style version.

[fwaeyten]

If the Svedovsky 8x10 works with the Sinar shutter, get a Sinar shutter, select your optics and make images.
Not a lot more to discuss.


Bernice

I can confirm that the Svedovsky takes the Sinar Board. The Chamonix Iris Board fits perfectly. The Sinar Copal Shutter is on its way.

[fwaeyten]

And here's the copal shutter attached to the camera: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MAGtPsp5K1HuFcoVYZ-nd7GUg632yXa4/view
It fits better upside down.

With the iris Board before:

209126

[Steven Tribe]

Very Nice design.
The only problem I can see is that the clearance between the Iris clamp and the shutter opening is very limited, meaning that you can only Mount lenses which have the male flange thread at the very end of the barrel. Which is fortunately the case with the Heliar design!

[Oslolens]

Looking very good! Could the shutter be mounted on the back side of the front standard, with the iris clamp on the front, in order to increase distance and even out the weight? How is the front when a heavy lens is mounted? Does a Heliar need extra support, or only heavy lenses?

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[fwaeyten]

Very Nice design.
The only problem I can see is that the clearance between the Iris clamp and the shutter opening is very limited, meaning that you can only Mount lenses which have the male flange thread at the very end of the barrel. Which is fortunately the case with the Heliar design!

You are absolutely right. It is a problem. I think mounting the shutter behind the front plate between the bellows and the front plate is a better solution.

[fwaeyten]

Looking very good! Could the shutter be mounted on the back side of the front standard, with the iris clamp on the front, in order to increase distance and even out the weight? How is the front when a heavy lens is mounted? Does a Heliar need extra support, or only heavy lenses?

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Yes, someone already did it. https://www.timlaytonfineart.com/blog/2019/11/sinar-copal-shutter-adapted-to-fit-my-8x10-chamonix-view-camera

heavy lenses could be a problem, but thightening the flange behind the iris helps.

[Steven Tribe]

Many People have done it ( mounting the copal sinar shutter behold the front standard )!

I have a tailboard 18x24 cm camera which I modified to Mount the copal shutter between the bellows and the front standard. Chamonix make a version which is virtually designed around the use of the copal sinar shutter. There are earlier threads on this use.