Is this Bromide Drag? Help!

[horseman89]

First post here so apologies if I'm doing it wrong.

Can someone help me identify the waterfall marks in these negs. Conditions are:

TMax100 4x5
Patterson Tank
Ilford Mod 54 MK27 Processor 4x5
Rodinal 1:80
1 hr semi stand dev @ 68 degrees
8ml Rodinal in 1000ml water
30 secs ag at start, 3 inversions at 30 mins, 3 inversions at end
ilford stop and fix 1:9, 7-8mins
photoflo
208622

[quine]

These look more like light leaks to me: bromide drag will flow from the highlights in the image, these seem to be coming from specific places on the camera.

[popdoc]

Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[neil poulsen]

Do you have a photo of the developing hanger that you used to process the negatives?

[koraks]

Ilford Mod 54 MK27 Processor 4x5
Rodinal 1:80
1 hr semi stand dev @ 68 degrees

There's your problem.
This is NOT A LIGHT LEAK as quine and popdoc suggested. When I started out with 4x5 I also used a Mod54 and tried stand development with rodinal, with exactly the same problems that you witnessed. They went away as soon as I cleaned up my act and reverted to normal agitation.

Stand development is asking for trouble like this. If you must, use semi-stand with agitations every 15 or 20 minutes or so, but you may still get problems with unevenness depending on the film format, developer and reel/tank geometry. It's finicky. It can work OK if everything lines up, but many of us have bumped our heads.

So in short: give it a try with normal agitation, so every minute or so. The problem WILL go away.

[Tobias Key]

There's your problem.
This is NOT A LIGHT LEAK as quine and popdoc suggested. When I started out with 4x5 I also used a Mod54 and tried stand development with rodinal, with exactly the same problems that you witnessed. They went away as soon as I cleaned up my act and reverted to normal agitation.

Stand development is asking for trouble like this. If you must, use semi-stand with agitations every 15 or 20 minutes or so, but you may still get problems with unevenness depending on the film format, developer and reel/tank geometry. It's finicky. It can work OK if everything lines up, but many of us have bumped our heads.

So in short: give it a try with normal agitation, so every minute or so. The problem WILL go away.

The easiest way to check is to reload the developed film into the MOD45. If the unevenness lines up with the where the film is held on the MOD there's your problem. If you think it's a light leak, it's in the camera not the holder as your rebates aren't fogged. Check the camera bellows as a first step.

[koraks]

The pattern will line up with the clamps of the mod54. Again, I've had exactly the same issue a few years ago. There's no doubt about the cause. Stand development, at least with rodinal or pyrocat, does not work well with this development equipment.

[horseman89]

There's your problem.
This is NOT A LIGHT LEAK as quine and popdoc suggested. When I started out with 4x5 I also used a Mod54 and tried stand development with rodinal, with exactly the same problems that you witnessed. They went away as soon as I cleaned up my act and reverted to normal agitation.

Stand development is asking for trouble like this. If you must, use semi-stand with agitations every 15 or 20 minutes or so, but you may still get problems with unevenness depending on the film format, developer and reel/tank geometry. It's finicky. It can work OK if everything lines up, but many of us have bumped our heads.

So in short: give it a try with normal agitation, so every minute or so. The problem WILL go away.

Thank you! Sometimes is worse than others but I will try more frequent agitation. Negs are already fairly flat so might use a bump anyhow. Appreciate the insight.

[horseman89]

The pattern will line up with the clamps of the mod54. Again, I've had exactly the same issue a few years ago. There's no doubt about the cause. Stand development, at least with rodinal or pyrocat, does not work well with this development equipment.

Any other equipment you'd recommend for stand?

[Tin Can]

Can we assume you developed 4 sheets 4x5 at one go?

With 8 ml Rodinol per 1000 ml for an hour

Some think Rodinol needs at least 10 ml for 80 sq inches

and it is fully exhausted well before 20 minutes

[paulbarden]

Any other equipment you'd recommend for stand?

I strongly suggest you disavow "stand" development. Its 99% horsepucky and will only introduce problems that are easily resolved by embracing proper development agitation technique. The mythology surrounding "stand" development is powerful and persistent, and unfortunately many aspiring large format photographers get seduced into thinking this will be some magic elixir that will iron out any potential issues their exposures may have. It won't. You'll get streaks and blotches and uneven development, just like what we see pictured here. Horseman, do yourself a favor and stick with what manufacturers state: agitate as recommended throughout the development time. If you feel you need to compress the tonal scale of an image, then learn how to expose a bit more and develop a bit less. This will be a much more reliable approach to film development, and you will avoid streaks and marks on your film.

[koraks]

What Paul says - give up stand. Do semi-stand if you have to, but to be brutally honest, there's absolutely nothing wrong with old fashioned agitation. A few inversions per minute and Bob's your uncle. With the benefit that your negatives are ready for printing even quicker.
You might still get some small marks where the Mod54 clamps hold the film; if you want to get rid of those, consider a Jobo 25xx with the N-type reel, or, even better (IMO) develop one by one in a tray in the dark. It's my preferred approach for sheet film; perfect control, perfect evenness...

[horseman89]

What Paul says - give up stand. Do semi-stand if you have to, but to be brutally honest, there's absolutely nothing wrong with old fashioned agitation. A few inversions per minute and Bob's your uncle. With the benefit that your negatives are ready for printing even quicker.
You might still get some small marks where the Mod54 clamps hold the film; if you want to get rid of those, consider a Jobo 25xx with the N-type reel, or, even better (IMO) develop one by one in a tray in the dark. It's my preferred approach for sheet film; perfect control, perfect evenness...

Thanks for the technical rec, Koraks!

I know how to develop just fine. :p Just like to experiment with alt techniques. Appreciate all of the feedback!

[horseman89]

Can we assume you developed 4 sheets 4x5 at one go?

With 8 ml Rodinol per 1000 ml for an hour

Some think Rodinol needs at least 10 ml for 80 sq inches

and it is fully exhausted well before 20 minutes

actually, 6 sheets at once! Most times have come out fine, just noticed this extra strong effect this batch. Thanks for the feedback.

[horseman89]

I am however curious about why so many photographers seem to get so agitated (boom) when stand dev is brought up... but maybe thats for another thread. Why clamp down on creative exploration? Thats why we're all here... right?

[Tin Can]

I have used only Rodinol for 7 years

I mostly use gas burst in tanks, a 1 second burst every 10 seconds seldom exceeding 10 minutes

I vary concentration from 1/20 to 1/100

I like simple same same

Right now I have 19 full bottles of it

maybe I try stand again, maybe not

[horseman89]

I have used only Rodinol for 7 years

I mostly use gas burst in tanks, a 1 second burst every 10 seconds seldom exceeding 10 minutes

I vary concentration from 1/20 to 1/100

I like simple same same

Right now I have 19 full bottles of it

maybe I try stand again, maybe not


Now THAT is interesting Tin Can. I'd be curious to hear more about your setup. Or, any trustworthy links explaining how one might do gas burst agitation?

[paulbarden]

I am however curious about why so many photographers seem to get so agitated (boom) when stand dev is brought up... but maybe thats for another thread. Why clamp down on creative exploration? Thats why we're all here... right?

Nobody is suggesting you not try "creative" variations of process. But the fact is that 90% of those who try the technique eventually find it only introduces undesirable effects, and you often end up with a lot of ruined film. I'll remind you that you started this thread (with examples) to find out why your film had been ruined by development streaks. I concluded that you yourself had decided these were not desirable effects. But if these experiments make you happy, then by all means, carry on.

[Tin Can]

Watch this first, my youtube made some time ago, Gas Burst (https://youtu.be/9DddOzSUeRc)

If you search this forum and everywhere else there are more answers than 8 years ago

Search the forum ONLY this way, type this in google. large format photography forum "adding your search terms where i typed this"

and always scroll down any thread to see what is at bottom


Now THAT is interesting Tin Can. I'd be curious to hear more about your setup. Or, any trustworthy links explaining how one might do gas burst agitation?

[Ulophot]

Regarding scale-compression, two suggestions. See if you can find John Sexton's description of his 'slogger' technique with highly dilute developer (he uses, or used, Kodak RT with Tmax). It involves a special tray insert you can try to make yourself or have fabricated, to hold the film in a tray and allow very gentle periodic agitation.

Another approach, which some of us here use, is called Selective Latent Image Manipulation Technique (SLIMT), involved highly-dilute efficyanide bleach prior to (usually) Normal-with-a-capital-N development, thus allowing daylight tank development. It's quite versatile, and the same technique can be used on prints. Look up http://www.davidkachel.com/assets/cont_pt3.htm

[grat]

I am however curious about why so many photographers seem to get so agitated (boom) when stand dev is brought up... but maybe thats for another thread. Why clamp down on creative exploration? Thats why we're all here... right?

Respect for the pun. Personally, I'm relatively new to doing my own development. Being a nitwit, I leapt into 4x5 and 120, B&W and color, all within the space of... about two weeks. I like the efficiency of the SP-445, but like the capacity of the 20th century film reels. Didn't like the design of the mod-54 because I consider it a bit fiddly to load (more so than the 20th century reel).

But I don't understand stand development-- by which, I mean, I get the concept, but I fail to see the attraction. The whole point of agitation is periodically equalize the exhausted and fresh developer throughout the tank, ie, moving the potentially exhausted developer away from the film-- you can accomplish this by rotating continuously in a roller tank, you can do it intermittently with agitation, or you can do it in the least efficient way possible, by relying on concentration gradients.

The "benefit" is that you don't have to agitate, but in order to ensure even development, well... YOU CAN'T!!! Sorry. Ok. Obviously, you can, by waiting longer, but again-- you're relying on concentration gradients to ensure that ever bit of silver equally exhausts the nearby developer, and then over the next N number of minutes, enough fresh developer leeches into the exhausted zone to finish the developing process.

At least with agitation, once every 30 or 60 seconds, you're effectively redistributing all the developer throughout the entire tank, and even with the SP-445 and it's tendency to leak, it's just not that difficult. The paterson, when properly sealed, simply doesn't leak.

What am I missing?

There's creative exploration, and then there's just shooting yourself in the foot to see if it hurts.

[horseman89]

Regarding scale-compression, two suggestions. See if you can find John Sexton's description of his 'slogger' technique with highly dilute developer (he uses, or used, Kodak RT with Tmax). It involves a special tray insert you can try to make yourself or have fabricated, to hold the film in a tray and allow very gentle periodic agitation.

Another approach, which some of us here use, is called Selective Latent Image Manipulation Technique (SLIMT), involved highly-dilute efficyanide bleach prior to (usually) Normal-with-a-capital-N development, thus allowing daylight tank development. It's quite versatile, and the same technique can be used on prints. Look up http://www.davidkachel.com/assets/cont_pt3.htm

Very cool! Thank you.

[horseman89]

Respect for the pun. Personally, I'm relatively new to doing my own development. Being a nitwit, I leapt into 4x5 and 120, B&W and color, all within the space of... about two weeks. I like the efficiency of the SP-445, but like the capacity of the 20th century film reels. Didn't like the design of the mod-54 because I consider it a bit fiddly to load (more so than the 20th century reel).

But I don't understand stand development-- by which, I mean, I get the concept, but I fail to see the attraction. The whole point of agitation is periodically equalize the exhausted and fresh developer throughout the tank, ie, moving the potentially exhausted developer away from the film-- you can accomplish this by rotating continuously in a roller tank, you can do it intermittently with agitation, or you can do it in the least efficient way possible, by relying on concentration gradients.

The "benefit" is that you don't have to agitate, but in order to ensure even development, well... YOU CAN'T!!! Sorry. Ok. Obviously, you can, by waiting longer, but again-- you're relying on concentration gradients to ensure that ever bit of silver equally exhausts the nearby developer, and then over the next N number of minutes, enough fresh developer leeches into the exhausted zone to finish the developing process.

At least with agitation, once every 30 or 60 seconds, you're effectively redistributing all the developer throughout the entire tank, and even with the SP-445 and it's tendency to leak, it's just not that difficult. The paterson, when properly sealed, simply doesn't leak.

What am I missing?

There's creative exploration, and then there's just shooting yourself in the foot to see if it hurts.

So, I've gotten some great results with stand. A lot of my work has been processed in this way. Really just can't figure out why this happens intermittently, more intense in some batches than others. It's definitely the film holder giving the pattern. The Jobo reels look promising. Have even gotten some great results stand developing overnight, putting in the exact amount of dev needed to fully exhaust itself then just letting it go until... whenever.

And my reasoning for liking stand in general is that one, it's slow, which is a speed I like to move. Hence sheet film in the first place. And, on a more romantic note, to me it captures (boom?) a marriage of precision + chance better than regular developing. I get to let go of the obsession of minutes and seconds. It's something I find alluring that connects me back to the core reason why I love photography in the first place. I find it conceptually satisfying. That's why I like it. But, thats just my two penniless cents.

Thanks for all the input, y'all!

[Rod Klukas]

This is exacerbated by use of a tank. This is much cleaner when done in trays and or tanks with depth of Chemistry is well over top of sheet in holder. I had many extreme plus developments up to 2.5 to 3 hours with no issues.

We used to use Kodak D23(now you have to make it up yourself). Adjitation for the first 30 seconds is continuous adjitation, then 10 seconds every one minute for the first hour. Then change to 1 minute continuous agitation, every 15 minutes until finished.

This method works well on the older emulsions such as Tri-X, HP% or Fp4, for 4 stop + developments. You keep the D23 and replenish with DK25. About 4 stop expansion.

The thinner emulsions such as Tmax for around 4 stop expansions do well using HC110 at 90 Degrees. Use a presoak of 85-90 degrees and then empty and add 90 degree developer and shake like a cocktail shaker for 90 seconds. Dump and use a stop bath at at

least 80 degrees and then fix at about 75 degrees and then a 70degrees or so rinse in and out, then a wash aid and then wash for 5-10 minutes. You have to step the temperatures slowly or risk reticulation.

It works,
Rod

[horseman89]

UPDATE: I have solved the edge density issue caused by the Mod54 by simply introducing more agitation as some members suggested here. I also ended up adding a touch more Rodinal, up to 9ml/1000ml. Thanks! After a few tests, in the end it was a super simple fix. I now use agitation at start and end and every 15 mins for a total time of 1hr(ish). I now have perfectly even negs with the look I want... semi-stand works for me! Cheers to all. 208862208863208864