Lupex Paper

[bob carnie]

Hi Folks

I am making digital silver negatives enlarged to 20 x 24 and want to match them up to Lupex paper which I believe is the same as the Azo paper of old.

I am wondering what developers those familiar with this paper are using. I would like to hear any thoughts.

Bob

[agregov]

I haven't used Lupex yet. But with respects to Lodima, I have used Amidol and Formulary's 120 (Ansco 120). Amidol produces a warmer image to my eyes. There may also be a touch more dmax with Amidol. That said, I do prefer 120 with it's long keeping properties (when non diluted), way less messy than Amidol and still makes an excellent image. I have used LDP before with Lodima and it turns out blue--not recommended. That said, I still consider myself a newb with these materials so don't put much weight on the above.

That said, one of the troubling aspects of the traditional silver chloride papers for me has been the lack of supplies. Lodima paper has been out of stock in many grades for years now. I hope they will have another order. Adox appears to be stable at the moment but Lupex is quite expensive. Next on my list for paper testing for silver contact prints (digital and analog) is Ilford Galerie G3 paper. I like that you can expose Ilford G3 paper under an enlarger and with digital negatives you don't have to worry about access to different paper grades, which Ilford no longer produces. I trust Ilford graded paper to be around longer than anyone else, hence my interest in comparing it to Lodima/Lupex. Also, there's many more paper developers available to Ilford papers. If you haven't tested digital silver contacts with Ilford G3 with your usual silver workflow for multi contrast papers, you might give it a go at some point.

[bob carnie]

That is a good point Andrej I will also look at the Grade 3 Galerie... the only non issue is that my Lambda paper is Galerie G4 so I am not offering a warmer paper option.

[bob carnie]

I always found MAS prints neutral tone ,, I am hoping to see a warmer tone with Lupex more in the range of Ilford Warmtone or Agfa Classic.

[peter schrager]

Hi Folks

I am making digital silver negatives enlarged to 20 x 24 and want to match them up to Lupex paper which I believe is the same as the Azo paper of old.

I am wondering what developers those familiar with this paper are using. I would like to hear any thoughts.

Bob
does Lupex even come in 20x24 size?
contrary to belief Amidol is not messy...the difference is in the quality of the Amidol. buy the quality product from Artcraft made in England. I have 40 year old Amidol that is very clean and lasts all day...

[Alan9940]

I always found MAS prints neutral tone ,, I am hoping to see a warmer tone with Lupex more in the range of Ilford Warmtone or Agfa Classic.

I develop Lupex in Amidol because it provides a slightly warmer tone than other developers I've tried. But, I've only tried a few different formulas and none reached the warmth of Ilford Warmtone or, based solely on a poor memory, Agfa Classic. I still use Ilford Warmtone to this day, but it has been many, many years since I've used Agfa Classic.

[bob carnie]

I have Galerie 4, Ilford Warmtone and Agfa Classic prints hanging in my studio space right now.. I remember MAS prints to be neutral, Peter I know you have seen a lot of M&P prints is Lupex neutral like them.. I am ordering some 16 x20 and if it works well may put in a special order for 20 x 24 if they consider doing this.

[bob carnie]

Andrej I have one of your images hanging on the wall..It is quite neutral I assume it was Gallerie 3. yes no?

[agregov]

Honored one of my images is anywhere near a Carnie wall! That image is Ilford Warmtone + LPD. The LPD does cool down Ilford WT a bit. But that said, I find all of Ilford's warm tone papers on the cool side compared to say something like a Foma 131/132. There's a pop of bronze like hue that I see missing in Ilford Warmtone. Personally, I prefer the Ilford WT paper for traditional neutral looking prints as I like the tonality it exhibits. I think tones are richer in Ilford WT than the other cooler Ilford papers. So, you're seeing the image (neutral) as I intended.

One edit from my note earlier, I mixed up my Ansco developers. It's Formulary 130 that is the good replacement for Amidol. Disregard the 120 note. With regard to MAS's prints, I'd agree they are on the neutral side. That said, if you put a silver chloride contact print developed in Amidol right next to the same print made with Ansco 130, you should see a pop of warmth in the Amidol print. Take away the Ansco print from the comparison, and it'll simply look neutral. I'm outside my expertise to suggest how to get a warmer image with Amidol/130/other developers or techniques with silver chloride but sure experts here can help. I have heard the Lupex is warmer than the Lodima paper so you may already be on the right track.

Final note, I do think down the road it's worth to compare Lupex/Lodima + digital neg contact to one made with Ilford Warmtone + digital contact and a developer of choice. I have done the same experiment with traditional pyro negs and the silver chloride papers were not markedly better than Ilford WT. A bit yes, but with your darkroom jujutsu skills, you may be able to pull out similar performance with traditional silver papers + digital workflow.

[peter schrager]

Bob I have no experience with lupex ...wish I could help you

[Alan9940]

To my eye, Lupex is quite a bit warmer than Lodima; both developed in MAS Amidol formula. However, I agree that when viewing a Lupex print on its own, it will tend to look neutral.

[Merg Ross]

Hi Folks

I am making digital silver negatives enlarged to 20 x 24 and want to match them up to Lupex paper which I believe is the same as the Azo paper of old.

I am wondering what developers those familiar with this paper are using. I would like to hear any thoughts.

Bob

Greetings, Bob -

I am not familiar with Lupex, having cut my teeth on earlier contact papers, Lustrex, Contactone, and Azo. Azo was kind of the last man standing, and gained popularity through the promotion of Michael Smith. He said it was Dody Weston Thompson, Edward Weston's last assistant, who told him his prints lacked something, and suggested Amidol and a silver-chloride paper; he chose Azo. As you may know, Michael made a large purchase of the remaining stock of Azo from Kodak, and used it for many years until his personal stock was depleted. And then, with his great energy and ambition to continue with Amidol and a silver-chloride paper, he pursued the manufacture of Lodima with great success.

So, your question was about developers. Twenty years ago I used my 1906 Amidol with some Azo I got from Michael, and obtained the predictable results. I used Cole's (Weston) formula for the Amidol developer, but that was a personal choice. I was doing a great deal of projection printing at the time and also tried the Ansco 130 (Glycin) developer (slightly modified) with Azo. I liked the result. Ansco 130 is my favorite print developer with the current choice of papers.

I know that you like the work of Brett Weston, who was a strictly Amidol man up to the last years of his life. He switched to LPD, with his usual stunning results. You may want to also consider this as a developer.

Back to Lupex, I have heard that the contrast needs to be tamed; Michael said of Lupex, the grade #3 was similar to his Lodima grade #4. As to print color, that can be modified by knowledge of how chemicals within a formula interact; Potassium Bromide and Benzotriazole are your friends!

Sounds like a fun project.

Best,
Merg

[Duolab123]

I have used Ilford Bromophen with Azo and Fomalux. I like the results. Another paper to consider is Fomatone. It's got quite a bit of silver chloride in the emulsion. It tones like crazy. Kodak Blue toner (gold) gives a define slate blue.

[bob carnie]

Thanks Merg. and all others , we are purchasing this paper 16 x 20 in size and I will discuss this with the young man driving this idea and we will try a few of the developers suggested .. The Bergger large roll ortho film is really stupid expensive at this point, so the only niche options I can see for it in my world is to take a Contact paper like Lupex and make Silver negatives off my Lambda.. I believe this will be an incredible mixture, most of my current clients are using high end Phase One equivalent cameras so the tonality , crispness , contrast of this combination should be superior to Inkjet to Ilford Warmtone contacts that I am currently doing, Right now in the middle of a show of work from the 60's where I am using Ilford Warmtone semi matt with inkjet negs made from the original scanned negatives. I have done a lot of work in this field lately and I think it may be a way for silver papers to still be relevant in our modern times... using custom made negatives allows me to do all the work on screen and make negatives that are incredibly accurate to the screen once I find the sweet spot on the enlarger contact setup. One would say go with the existing negatives, but with historical work this is not always possible as the amount of paper wastage getting to a final print, ( it takes me 6 sheets minimum) and the current price of silver paper makes enlarger printing only for a select few projects... not to mention anyone using digital now can have silver prints. With the ortho film and Lupex I think I may satisfy my print sniffing attitude as well be able to introduce a lot of young workers to this form of print for their projects.

[bob carnie]

I will take a couple of I phone pics of my set up as I print this week to show how I am using old and new.

[Alan9940]

Can't wait to read of your results, Bob. I think that tailored digital negatives combined with Lupex is going to be a wonderful combo. The contrast of Lupex is definitely an aspect of printing that requires consideration, but a custom made digital negative should easily mitigate any issues in this regard.

[G Benaim]

Mas amidol. The Lupex is a little contrastier than azo 3 so the option to use a water bath comes in handy.

[Alan9940]

Mas amidol. The Lupex is a little contrastier than azo 3 so the option to use a water bath comes in handy.

Tried the water bath technique, but it didn't prove all that successful for me. The best technique I've found for taming inherent contrast of Lupex is David Kachel's SLIMT. This allows me to knock the contrast back just a tad more than the water bath. You can, of course, get quite drastic with SLIMT, but I just want to take the "edge" off. I will admit that it takes more work to pull a Lupex print that really sings, but, when ya get it right, it's a beautiful thing!

[bob carnie]

I am using digital silver negatives that are calibrated to paper dev combo... no need for water bath .

[jmdavis]

I have a print from a digital negative by Tim Layton using Lupex and in a variation of Weston's amidol recipe, I think. It has citric acid.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHPjUQUoOYM Compares it to MGIV contact print.

[Sal Santamaura]

...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHPjUQUoOYM Compares it to MGIV contact print.

That Lupex print is excessively contrasty and ugly green. The second issue might be readily tamed by means of selenium toning.

My experience with Lupex is that it needs a negative tailored to the high paper contrast. Also, a much more neutral print right without toning can be obtained by using ADOX MCC developer.

[jmdavis]

I'm looking at the actual print, it is not green and has a contrast that I find appealing. It also has the "glow" that I associate with silver chloride paper and Amidol. Both of the prints in the video were toned in KRST.

[interneg]

This could be a horrible shock to some that are deeply emotionally invested in chloride papers, but modern multigrade papers and Lupex may be closer in terms of their basic composition (many modern variable contrast papers use very high chloride content emulsions) than most assume. Thus I'm not totally surprised that a developer (MCC) intended for neutrality with a modern variable contrast paper, gives decent neutrality with a pure chloride paper.

[mihag]

My experience with Adox Lupex is limited to a couple of sheets only. Developed in Ilford Multigrade the tonality was distinctly cool even bluish.

[agregov]

I think Tim was just out to show how prints can look different using different materials for his viewers. That said, the comparison to me isn't that helpful for learning about material differences as he's switching around too many variables (eg. a colder tone paper versus warmtone, different developers, etc). A better test with respect to the conversation in this thread would have been comparing a warm tone VC paper to Lupex, both processed in Amidol. MAS provides a mod to his Amidol formula for use with traditional VC papers. In that comparison, you'd likely see both papers more similar than not. Also missing from the video was Tim's printing specifics. For example, was he using an 8x10 analog or digital neg? If digital neg, ideally you'll need to make a curve for each paper tested--that would control contrast differences mentioned earlier in the thread. Finally, I'd be interested to know if he was exposing with a lightbulb or enlarger lamp. MAS exposed with a 300wt lightbulb mounted at the top of his darkroom. I expose Lodima with a lightbulb. I would think Lupex would be too slow for enlarger exposure? Again, I'm sure Tim simply wanted to show viewers that prints can look different based on your materials and I think he succeeded there. For the purposes of this thread and knowing how tightly Bob ties his workflow/materials to his final prints, I'm not sure there's much to glean from the video.

Note for Bob on Amidol earlier in the tread. +1 buying from Artcraft--MAS also recommended Artcraft during my workshop. I bought my Amidol through Formulary and it's rumored to be a lesser quality of Amidol. For example, I can get a little black blotching on the print from the Amidol. Doesn't appear much on the emulsion side of the Lodima but is easy to see on the back of the print. Don't know exactly if the Amidol quality is to blame but I will next purchase Amidol from Artcraft based on opinions here in the forum.

[Alan9940]

Note for Bob on Amidol earlier in the tread. +1 buying from Artcraft--MAS also recommended Artcraft during my workshop. I bought my Amidol through Formulary and it's rumored to be a lesser quality of Amidol. For example, I can get a little black blotching on the print from the Amidol. Doesn't appear much on the emulsion side of the Lodima but is easy to see on the back of the print. Don't know exactly if the Amidol quality is to blame but I will next purchase Amidol from Artcraft based on opinions here in the forum.

In my experience, the Chinese Amidol will produce this black blotching / spots. It's useable, but you need to filter it after putting through only one or two prints. The English Amidol, which is what I've now used for years, has never had this issue. The English version would definitely be my recommendation.