Epson K3- 4800 – How to get the best B&W print?

[Jack Brady]

I have recently purchased the Epson 4800 printer for use primarily to print fine art B&W images.

Given:
All of my work is shot in 2 ¼ or 4x5 negative, then scanned at 8,000 lines on my Howtek 8000 line drum scanner. I then take the scanned file into CS2 and drop the res to a working res of 4,000 lines for the 4x5 images and leave it at 8,000 lines for 2 ¼. The 8K file is then archived.

After CS2 clean up and any burn/dodge is done to the working file, I then drop the 4K working resolution to 720 dpi from printing on the 4800. My CS2 settings are with Red River profiles loaded, printer output is set to Black Point Compensation –On, Premium Photo Glossy paper, 2880 DPI, High Speed Off. The set up is for CS2 to manage the printer.

I’m partial to glossy paper as it has a similar look to the Oriental Seagul that I used to use when printing with an enlarger. Paper I’m currently printing on is the Red River UltraPro Gloss.

Mission:
Exchanging of printing set up techniques with other users of the Epson 4800 doing B&W work.

I would like to hear what others with the Epson 4800 have found to be their optimum techniques used to generate the best looking print. To my knowledge, nobody is making a set of B&W inks for the 4800 that would go beyond what the defaults inks are from Epson.

Any suggestions on refining my printing technique would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jack

[Ted Harris]

Jack, a quick response now and more later but the one thing you can do that will make a big difference ... and we ahve tested this at our scanning workshops ...is to use a RIP ... you should try the harrington QTR RIP first as it is easy to download and inexpensive. Their are others that may be beetter for you but try this one first.

I use it with the Red River papers.

[Mark McCarvill]

Jack,

You might find this web site useful -
groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint)

There are plenty of advanced users (including 4800 users) willing to share their insights, as well as opportunities to exchange prints with other users and learn their workflow.

Mark

[Doug Dolde]

Here's a good article about the ColorByte rip and how you can avoid switching black cartridges.

www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/phatte-black.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/printers/phatte-black.shtml)

[tim atherton]

I'd have thought that as well as trying QTR you would also be better off using the Epson ABW B&W printing set-up? I know someone who is testing the paper below on the 4800 and this is what they are using

Also, try waiting a few weeks for the new Crane Museo Silver Rag to come out - this is looking like a REALLY good paper with the K3 inks. It's a coated cotton based paper, not an RC paper 9though with a slightly warm rather than cool base).

Very close to a semi--gloss/semi-matt Air Dried FB paper. DMax in the 2.4 to 2.43 range, great shadow and mid-tones, tough surface and a very nice sense of depth to the prints.

[Bruce Watson]

To my knowledge, nobody is making a set of B&W inks for the 4800 that would go beyond what the defaults inks are from Epson.

That is not my experience. If what you want is the highest quality B&W inkjet print possible then I think you have to look at the grayscale inks. The reason for this is that it's difficult to get B&W without some amount of color casts when using color inks. ICC profiles aren't designed for this service - the intent of an ICC profile is to define and manage what happens on the outer edge of the gamut. Grayscale printing occurs right in the center of the gamut, and is therefore more a function of the linearization of the printer than of the ICC profile. That, and more shades of gray (up to a point, perhaps six shades counting black) make for a smoother print, especially in the highlights.

The very best B&W inkjet prints I have seen, including the K3s and ABW driver, were made with grayscale inks and a RIP that lets you control the individual ink channels.

Now I'm not saying the K3s and the ABW driver are bad. It's actually a pretty impressive system. I'm just saying that it's not the state of the art for B&W printing. If however you want to print a mix of color and B&W, your machine is right up there.

[Paddy Quinn]

"That is not my experience. If what you want is the highest quality B&W inkjet print possible then I think you have to look at the grayscale inks. The reason for this is that it's difficult to get B&W without some amount of color casts when using color inks. ICC profiles aren't designed for this service - the intent of an ICC profile is to define and manage what happens on the outer edge of the gamut. Grayscale printing occurs right in the center of the gamut, and is therefore more a function of the linearization of the printer than of the ICC profile. That, and more shades of gray (up to a point, perhaps six shades counting black) make for a smoother print, especially in the highlights.

The very best B&W inkjet prints I have seen, including the K3s and ABW driver, were made with grayscale inks and a RIP that lets you control the individual ink channels. "

this is getting really almsot too close to call now.

Epson K3 ink printers with the likes of QaudtoneRIP or Colorbyte are so close to the likes of the MIS or Piezo inks there is really nothing in it. The Bowhaus RIP with grey inks is extremely good, but I have seen the same print come out better with K3 inks and QaudtoneRIP.

This is especially going to change with the new generation of cotton based gloss/semi gloss coated papers coming out optimized for K3 type inks and using Photo Black inks rather than MK type blacks. This are starting to make most Peizo/MIS style prints look quite dull, and are close to giving Silver-Gelatin Fiber darkroom quality images. One thing these papers are giving are much smoother highlights and less grain than most matt cotton rag papers

[Ron Marshall]

How do the best achievable b/w prints from the 4800 compare to silver prints in terms of resolution of detail and tonality?

[neil poulsen]

I don't quite see how the "Phatte" ink is different from the K3 matte black that one would use otherwise.

It sounds like ColorByte has basically told Epson, "You had a good thing going with the 4000 in being able to easily switch between matte and photo black. You should have stuck with it!" (Paraphrased.)

They've actually removed the reason and ink around which the K3 inks were designed. Of course, there were other improvements when they went to the K3's.

I wonder what a comparison between their system and all the K3 inks (including light-light black) would look like. In skilled hands, just how much advantage is there to having that third light light black ink?

[Kirk Gittings]

Neil you are basically right about ColorByte Phat Black except they also mix in a slight amount of gloss black ink into the mat black to achieve an even higher dmax on mat BW prints. But basically you are right. I use a 4000 with imageprint and it is a great combination if you need the highest quality and need to swith between color and B&W. They basically have adapted the 4800 to run like a 4000 but with K3 inks. I currently run a 4000 with ImagePrint. It is a first class professional setup. Studioprint is a pain in the but and should only be used by big labs who ned to lienarize their inks. A close associate of mine uses it.

Glossy paper. Frankly, I think it is a mistake to print on glossy paper trying to make a print that looks like a silver print. Ink is a new and unique medium that has its own beauty. Right now ink looks best on mat paper. I have yet to see a museum quality ink print on glossy paper. They always look more like imitations of RC silver prints.

I have tested Silver rag. It is not a glossy paper. It is kind of a unique surface close to airdried glossy papers. It is a step in the right direction and they deserve allot of credit for that but it is not good enough for me to switch from mat papers. It still has allot of gloss differential and some metamerism. We profiled it on our 9600 with Studio print and could just not make it sing like we can on MuseoII and Museo Max.

My recommendation if you have the money and need to do b&w and color?... Imageprint Phat Black hands down. Only bw? QTR and Cone or MIS inks.

My recent show was a mixture of silver and cibachrome prints from the museum collection and new ink prints. My best bw ink prints compared favourably with my best vintage silver prints. The color ink prints blew away the Cibachromes.

[steve_782]

Try a test with Hahnemuhle Rag Satin paper. Overspray the final print with either Premier ECO satin, gloss or matte; or Glamour 2 varnish. Use the ECO satin straight, or mix the Eco gloss and matte, or Glamour 2 gloss and matte at 60/40 or 50/50 gloss to matte. Thin either of them with about 20% water and spray on the print. This will give you a nearly "F" surface matte dried look (semi-gloss). The more gloss you add the closer it gets to the "F" surface glossy look. The overspray definitely helps as it deepens the shadows (higher gloss factor) as well as protecting the print from UV.

Another option for sprays is the ClearShield LL gloss, semi-gloss, or matte from Clearstar Coatings Corporation (www.clearstar.com). I've used the semi-gloss and like the look, it's just hard to get where I'm located as there is no distributor.

QTR may give you slightly better results if they have a profile for the paper you want to use; or if you have a profiling system and can take advantage of the QTR "QTR-Create-ICC." Otherwise, the Epson B&W controls in the printer driver give you pretty much the same amount of control features as QTR.

[tim atherton]

Forget the Hahnemuhle Rag Satin - horrible stuff!. I know Kirk isn't so keen on it, but having seen the Crane Silver Rag with K3 inks, hold off until you can try a few sheets. It will give you "a nearly "F" surface matte dried look (semi-gloss)" look off the bat - no sprays no nothing. 2.4+ DMax, no bronzing, very little gloss differential. And using QTR (in fact also using EpsonABW) no detectable metamerism.

I get similar results to Kirk with the K2 inks (but again, I find QTR superior to, if slightly more limited than Colorbyte) - though don't find it quite as objectionable as Kirk. But the K3 inks are a big difference.

[Jack Flesher]

My workflow is similar but different ;) But I'll share it simply for posterity and I do not make any claims it is superior to anything different, just that it works for me -- on glossy paper. The only other disclaimer is I have moved up from the 4800 to the 7800 for its larger capacity, though the results of the prints off the two printers have been identical other than maximum size.

1) I set print resolution to 240, 300 or 360 PPI depending on final print size. I have never seen any conclusive evidence that sending a 720 PPI image to a large-format Epson printer generates a better print.

2) I use my own custom COLOR profiles to print B&W images on surfaced papers, and print them directly from CS2, letting CS2 manage the "color". I use Relative Colorimetric or depending on the print sometimes Perceptual, and most always with black point compensation. My prints are neutral-toned (unless I have toned them in CS2) when they come off the printer. The new K3 inks are singularly impressive in this ability.

3) I print at 1440 DPI, high-speed off. I have found that all 2880 DPI buys me is using more ink and taking longer to print -- though I can see a tiny difference when I put a loupe to the prints.

4) FWIW, I did recently dedicate a 7600 to Mk ink for the purpose of printing on matte fine art papers. (The cost of swapping Pk and Mk inks in the 4800/7800/9800 is significant and prevented me from exploring matte papers.) With the UC inks of the 7600 -- and the Mk ink for the 4800/7800/9800 is the SAME Mk ink used for the 4000/7600/9600 -- my own color profiles are not perfectly neutral, so I am now experimenting with Roy's RIP for the Mk/UC inks in that printer. The initial results are very promising.

[robc]

I guess you guys must be measuring the Dmax of these papers with a densitometer. I'm wondering whether that extra stop or so of Dmax is actually visible to the eye. We don't see like a densitometer which only reads light from one angle which is reflected at another specific angle. We see more like a light meter.i.e. we see all the diffused light from the print. Can someone test one of these high Dmax inkjet papers by reading the contrast range with a spot meter in normal room lighting and tell me how many stops it reads from paper base to deepest black. I could be wrong but I don't think you'll get more than 4 stops. 5 at the most in very bright light.

[Jack Brady]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for your comments so far.

I've been surprised that no mention has been made of the ErgoSoft Studio Print, Color GPS Photo used with the X-Rite DPP20 spectrophotometer.

Has anyone tried this RIP/Profile generator product?
Sure is expensive - package for all 3 of the elements runs a chap $3445.00!

If it's worth it, I'll spend my money but I'm need to be convinced.

I'm also looking into the Crane Silver Rag to see if I can hold of some to try out. I just got in samples of the Photorico Premium Photo Glossy, Photo Gallery Glossy and their Photo Gallery Hi-Gloss White Film (PGHG White Film). Curious to see how these papers print out - will do over the weekend.

From reading the posts to date, I definately need to start examining the matt papers. My Epson 4800 did not come with a Matt Black cartridge - assume I'll have to special order that.

Jack

[Bruce Watson]

Jack,

I use StudioPrint to drive my 7600 and Cone PiezoTones. I normally print to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag 308gsm paper - a fine matte surface that does an excellent job with pigment inks. I haven't seen anything any better in the last couple of years, so I guess you could say that I'm happy with what I'm using.

Before you spend $3500 on anything, consider spending considerably less on a plane ticket. You would seem to be a good candidate to attend the upcoming PMA show in Orlando at the end of February. Take a CDROM (more than one so you can leave one if you need to) with you containing a couple of images you want to use to compare with. Some of the vendors will print your image with their booth setup and you can walk away with a print, and know what your image can look like with the various products. Be sure to hit the Epson booth, ColorByte (ImagePrint), Ergosoft (StudioPrint), and find someone using MIS grayscale inks and Cone's PiezoTone inks. Also, be sure to look for the PrintVillage booth and see if you can score a print with the new NanoChrome inks (it's supposed to do good B&W as well as excellent color). You can do all that in a day, and maybe have your answers.