Selecting a 4X5 View Camera for the First Time...

[Al D]

I'm looking to get into Large Format with a 4x5 camera in the coming several months.

Even though I have not used a View Camera before I have read about some basic view camera concepts (i.e. about camera movements, bellows extenion, and the like). At least to the extent that I believe I can articulate what it is I consider essential and what is just a nice-to-have.

Here's what I consider essential:
- I'll probably be using lens focal lengths from 90 mm to 250 or 270 mm. The latter would be used for portraiture and I would expect to need to focus down to about 6 or 7 feet for head & shoulder shots. I expect that means I'm going to need close to about 400 mm of bellows to be available (even if only through a purchased bellows extension).

- Portability is fairly important. I will walk around with this thing, perhaps 2 or 3 miles in a day when I'm shooting monuments. A weight up to or around 7 lbs is acceptable but at the very least it needs to be able to fit in a reasonably deep backpack. I can live with requiring a few minutes of setup or teardown time (this is, after all, LF so that's part of the fun).

- Rigidity. Fairly important here as I will need to rack out the bellows a fair distance (see above). However, that's more than likely to be for inside portrait work. I'd also be interested in hearing what tripod/head combination can help mitigate camera shake concerns. Plus, assuming I've done everything by the book I don't want a gentle breeze ruining a sharp photo in as much as I can prevent it.

- Availability of bag bellows (or similar) is a nice to have. If it isn't, the camera should allow at least a bit of movement with a 75 mm lens with the available bellows (yeah, *that's* probably asking for a alot).

- Ability to mount a 6x9 or 6x12 roll film back. I expect that I will, especially initially, do a fair bit of shooting with 6x9 because it's a hell of a lot less expensive to make mistakes on that stuff than 80 cents/sheet sheet film. Of course, I've already figured out that roll film backs are, by far, the most ridiculously expensive accessyories in the LF world.

Except for the absurd 4" bellows extension that ToyoView sells for $500 or thereabouts.

Given the above it looks like I'm on the cusp of crossover between Field Cameras and Monorail Cameras (well, isn't everybody?) With a very little bit of research I'm sort of sizing up the following as the leading candidates:

- Walker SF 4X5: Ugly as sin, yes, but verything about the spec. sheet looks really good except the absence of a Fresnel focusing lens. BUT they are a bit pricey new ($1,750 or so), aren't available on the used market, have questionable resale because of same, and with very limited distribution I'd be plenty worried if a problem surfaced...

-Tachihara 4X5: It has the needed bellows extension and the light weight is nice BUT many have commented it's degree of available movement is not as good as advertised, and it lacks rigidity.

- Shen Hao 4x5: This looks really good on paper. Both wide angle bellows and a recessed lens board are available, I *might* be able to get by with 360mm of bellows, and they even have a 6x12 roll film back that costs $100 less than the Calumet C2N and an available Fresnel lens. I've heard the rigidity isn't bad for a "woodie" either and the fit and finish is actually pretty good.

- Zone VI: Good bellows length but I've heard it doesn't fare well with WA lenses. Fit and finish tends to vary a lot by sample or so I'm told. Rigidity isn't considered to be very good either.

- Toyo 45CF: Light and rigid. Just a shade too little bellows extension (without buying an absolutely absurdly expensive 4 " bellows inser) , no real rear movements, can barely use a 90 mm on it, and no bag bellows.

I've heard very good things about Canham field cameras but unless used samples are readily available for $1,500 or slightly less - I won't be considering them.

Very few monorail candidates. None, actually, unless a Sinar A1, F, or F1 can be made to fit in a backpack or one can assemble/disassemble them in under 10 minutes.

I'm willing to buy used. I'm not at all a brand snob. Having said that, I do want a product that the manufacturer (or at least the distributor) is willing to stand behind if I have questions or need a reference for a repair. This eliminates Wisner (too many horror stories) I expect.

My apologies for a lengthy post. Any help is appreciated.

-Al

[Bobby Sandstrom]

I own the Tachihara. I owned an arca swiss. I LOVE the Tachihara. It packs a lot of punch for very little money. It is NOT lacking in rigidity and has more movements than most will ever use. I love it so much I bought the 8x10 too! I'm selling my wehman 8x10 because of it. I use an arca b1 ball head on a gitzo tripod. All the support you need even with my 8x10. It's fast, flexible, easy to setup quickly. Hope this helps.

[Scott Fleming]

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/vx125.html

http://largeformatphotography.info/lfforum/topic/504488.html

[Scott Fleming]

Good pictures:

http://www.toyoview.co.jp/vx125.htm

[Brian Vuillemenot]

My vote would be for the Shen-Hao. I recently picked one up as a backup camera, and am very impressed with the rigidity, finish, and workmanship. I'd have to say it's as good as (if not better than) that of several American made wood field cameras I've used, for about a third of the price. A big advantage is the availability of the low cost multi-format panoramic back for the Shen-Hao which can shoot 6X17, 6X12, or 6X9. Although the overall apearance of this accessory is somewhat crude, it works fine and lets you shoot several different formats on roll film, which you indicated was how you wanted to start out. A bag bellows is available for the Shen-Hao, although it can handle a 75 mm lens without this accessory and still get some movements. The main limitation of the Shen-Hao is that the bellows only extends enough to use up to about a 300 mm lens. Of course, you can always get a telephoto design if you want to shoot in the 400-450 mm range. If you need a lens to go with it, Badger Graphics sells a LF photography start up kit with the Shen-Hao, a 150 mm Rodenstock Apo-Sironar lens, and several film holders and accessories (no, I don't work for Badger, I'm simply a satisfied customer). Best of luck with you LF expereince, and let us know what you decide on!

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Very few monorail candidates. None, actually, unless a Sinar A1, F, or F1 can be made to fit in a backpack or one can assemble/disassemble them in under 10 minutes.

None, really ?
Have you ever heard about the new Arca Swiss 4x5" line of view cameras with 141mm standards ?
For example the 4x5" F-line 'field' compact, tapered bellows 110mm->141mm, with the folding rail, no need to disassemble the camera.

[Ole Tjugen]

Another monorail candidate is the old Linhof Color. Mine fits nicely in a small Lowepro S&F Rover Lite, along with 5 lenses, 10 holders and all the little extra bits&pieces like light meters, dark cloth, changing bag, coffee thermos and so on. A 42cm rail is plenty for me.
I have no 75mm lens, but I use a 90mm on a flat lensboard.

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Another monorail candidate is the old Linhof Color.
Agreed with Ole. Those view camera defined as a Linhof-Technika-on-a-monorail, are very affordable on the used market. In the same spirit we could add its successor, the Kardan-color, very similar, but with a rail that splits into two parts and some additional features like vertical shift at the back.
Information here :www.largeformatphotography.info/linhof/kardan-color.html (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/linhof/kardan-color.html)

[Ole Tjugen]

After having recommended thinking about the Linhof Color, I have to admit that if I were to buy a 4x5" camera today, it would probably be the same as my 5x7" camera: Gandolfi Traditional. Or maybe I would just buy a reducing back for the 5x7"...

[Phong]

Just a couple of comments:

With a focal length of 270 mm and object distance of 7 feet (21333 mm), you don't need anywhere near 400 mm of bellows. The math works out to 309 mm (about 12 ") of bellows.

I would not buy a roll film back just to learn shooting 4x5, especially if you shoot black and white and process your own film. For the price of a roll film back, you a "waste" a lot of film and I bet that when you are done with that amount of film, you will have learned quite a bit about 4x5 photography, including 4x5 specific stuff like sheet film handling and developing, and composing in the 4x5 format which you would not if you use a roll film back.

While you don't see too many Walker 4x5 on the used market, I would not worry about resale value. The few that I have seen get sold pretty fast and for very good prices. Walker actually has an excellent reputation for support. Long-term support is more of an issue, as with any very small shop.



Given your stated goals and implied budget of $1500, the Shen Hao would be my pick from your camera list, though I would also look more closely at the Toho FC-45X, for which the most serious hold back for me is the way you switch the back between vertical and horizontal orientations.

Those are just my opinions. Good luck and have fun,

[Richard Kelham]

I understand that the scarcity of Walker cameras on the S/H market is due to the reluctance of owners to part with them! They are reputedly excellent cameras, and Mike Walker is good on customer service too.

Your requirements do seem to call for two cameras: a lightweight field camera for the monuments, and something more robust for studio work? You could buy a Shen Hao and a S/H monorail for the price of a new Walker or Canham etc. Alternatively the Arca is versatile, "portable" and available.

[Ron Marshall]

Al, You seem to have done your reaserch. I bought my first LF camera this year, a Sinar F1. Great camera, too heavy for me away from the car, although they are very cheap now on ebay. Then I bought a Toho (not Toyo). Great camera, 3lb, read Kerry Thalmann's well done review on his website.

You may also want to consider the Wista's, Dx and Vx.

I will strongly recommend that you don't get the roll film back. I thought it would take me much longer to get well exposed/composed shots. I put five rolls through mine and haven't used it since. Expensive paperweight. Buy it later if you feel the need, but don't get it right away.

I strongly recommend only buying one lens and shooting with that until you are comfortable and have a better idea of what you need. Your favourite focal lengths and subject matter may not correspond to what you shot in other formats.

There are many good quality used lenses and cameras on the market today. Here are some of the stores that I have dealt with: KEH camera brokers, Badger Graphics, Midwest Photo exchange.

Good luck

[Bill Hahn]

Oh dear, I never realized that my Walker Titan SF was "as ugly as sin"....:-)

I bought mine in late 2000 after much research. I've never regretted it, and actually
the fact that I didn't see any on the used market I took as a positive, as Phong indicated....

[steve simmons]

Before buying a camera may I suggest some reading

Using the View Camera that I wrote

and/or

Large Format Nature Photography by Jack Dykinga

User's Guide to the View Camera by Jim Stone

Several of the articles in the Free Articles section of the View Camera magazine web site

www.viewcamera.com

When you get suggstions about which camera to buy ask what they photograph. It will help you put their thoughts into context.

steve simmons www.viewcamera.com

[Ted Harris]

It looks like you hav already done a lot of reading but Steve's recommendations are good ones. Some additional comments on Walker and Canham cameras, both of which I own or have owned. The Walker is a fine camera and nearly indestructible. As mentioned earlier, Mike Walker is terrific with customer support and you will ahve no problem finding support on this side of the ocean as well. Badger Graphics, Midwest Photo and the View Camera Store, among others, all carry Walker cameras. The Walker, at 6+ pounds i sat the upper edge of your 'walking around' limit but I hacve hiked miles with it without any problems. I find it a bit bulky for overnighting however. In terms of movements the Walker is very generous.

As for Canham's, 1500 - 1700 is the price range for used copies. In fact Midwest usually has one or two used ones and Badger has one right now. I have used a Canham 45/57 woodfield (and the only wood part is the outside box BTW) for some ten years and it is my main field camera. Reasonable weight, rigid, all the movements I ever need in the field, luxurious long bellows extension, bag bellows, etc. Carrying the camera with both a 45 and 57 back is great and the additional backtakes up very little additional space.

You talked about the presence or lack of a fresnel. If you buy a camera without one and feel the need (you may find you don't need it) they are easily installed on most cameras.

For general landscape work and some portraiture either the Canham or the Walker will work fine. So too will many other field cameras. You really need to see what 'feels' best for you. One of the biggest differences is the 'feel' of wood v. metal cameras.

I have not mentioned monorails because your needs seem to fall more in line with field cameras than with monorails, but, yes, the Arca does both very well as does the Toyo VX and the Linhof Color that was mentioned earlier has some of the best features of both worlds .... allthis is by way of saying that while you willnot go wrong with a Canham or Walker there are others to consider.

[Dan_5988]

I own the tachihara 4x5 too and have found nothing I didnt like with it after 2 years of hard use. I also bought the tachihara 8x10 recently as well. I use normal lenses though..Ive never had problems with movements or rigidity.

-dan

[Malcolm Stewart]

What a contrast to my move into LF! I'm much more of an un-planned pragmatist.

I'm in the UK, and I'd always considered LF way beyond my means. (Plenty of 35mm SLR and DSLR stuff.) This was partly because I didn't know anyone using it, and also the only time I saw any LF gear was at the annual "Focus on Imaging" exhibition, where very pricey new gear was on display. I certainly didn't know enough at that time to judge whether salesmen selling s/h gear were taking advantage of my ignorance. So I left well alone.

However, 18 months ago I was touring in Suffolk and came across an MPP Microtechnical Mk VI on display in a large antiques emporium. Did a quick inspection, and decided that at £175 for the camera, tripod/ball head, 2 lenses, filmholders and other items, I couldn't really go far wrong, particularly as the camera seemed in good condition. Since then it's been an interesting period with me learning lots about the real practicalities of LF, filmholder standards, tripod stability etc. I've now discarded the supplied Linhof tripod / Schiansky ball head as being far too flimsy, and now rely on a Manfrotto #115 head and Benbo Original (Mk 1) tripod. Similarly I've replaced the original 1950s 150mm Xenar & 240mm Tele-Xenar lenses with fairly recent multicoated Rodenstock Sironar and Schneider Super Angulon lenses, and at last can understand why people enthuse about LF.

I shoot on Provia 100F and/or FP4 and so far have had a few transparencies printed on Ilfochrome (Cibachrome) at 20" x16".

On the practical side, I quickly found that a shopping trolley was the only way for me to get the gear about. It's not just the camera, it's the firm tripod which is heavy, and carrying the tripod without the trolley was too exhausting. (I really must get fit.)

Have fun, I have.

[Jim Rhoades]

I'm not going to sit here and recommend my favorite camera. I will address other issues that I believe are overstated.

Bellows extension: A 250mm lens would tend to be standard lens and 12" of extension would do what you want. A 270 would tend to be a tele and do more than you want. A 300mm Fujinon T will focus to about 8' (head shoulders) on a flat board with 9" of bellows.

Weight: Even a 5x7 Deardorff is under 7 lbs. Any 4x5 "field" camera over 7lbs. should be thrown out.

Rigidity: Any of the cameras you listed are ridgid enough. When you crank out 12 or more inches of bellows it is a sail looking for a wind. You have to insert the film holder, pull the slide and let the camera, any camera, settle down. You want ridgid buy a Green monster and a 250 lb. camera stand. Any one tells you that a Ebony will be sharper than a Korona at extension without letting the camera settle is full of it.

Tripods and heads: The head is way more important to stability than the tripod.

Gentle breeze: Buy a golf umbrella and learn patience. This is L/F.

One last thing, the ZoneVI does vary a lot in fit. It works very well with W/A lenses with the bag bellows. More bellows' is always nice to have. Tachihara has more movements than you would ever really need. The use of movements is vastly overstated. 45CF has 14 or 15 inch bellows. Thats more than the Shen-Hao or Tachihara.

[Frank Petronio]

There are two approaches to this.

The first is to buy any of the above cameras when you see them on eBay for a good price. Use the advanced search feature to review past auctions and ask questions here to determine what a good price for a particular model camera is. Then use it, buy a different camera and sell the previous one, and keep experiementing. It is a fun hobby to buy and resell these cameras.

The second is to pick any of the above cameras that are mentioned, as they are all good cameras that make excellent photos. I'd probably choose a vintage Arca-Swiss monorail or a Wista metal VX or SP myself but no matter. And just use it a lot. Photography is an even better hobby than trading cameras.

(In other words, do as I say, not as I do!)

[Jack Flesher]

I think Frank is on point... Buy something and just start.

Two things are certain: the ideal, do-it-all LF camera does not exist and your needs and desires will change as you "grow" in LF. So undoubtedly no matter what you start with, you will likely upgrade to something else or add to it later.

With that in mind, and assuming you are going to start with 4x5, a couple of basic considerations I would recommend at least keeping in mind.

1) Uniformity of lensboards will allow you to easily switch between differing cameras. Most all cameras either already use or can be easily adapted to use Technica/Wista style lens boards. (A full-sized Toyo, Arca or Sinar board is no fun to pack with each lens while in the field.)

2) Excessive movements are usually not required for landscape or portrait work -- a bit of tilt and swing and a moderate amount of rise/fall are ususally all that are required.

3) There are some relative bargains avaialable in older, monorail studio cameras if you need excessive movements for specific projects, thus you might want to consider a dual camera system, one for field and another for studio.

[Bill_1856]

For a first time 4x5 camera I recommend a CROWN GRAPHIC, and a good used TILTALL tripod.

[Nick_3536]

A Shen-Hao 5x7 with the 4x5 back. You'll have all the bellows you can dream of. If you could live with less wide something like an Ansco 5x7 for a lot less money.

Unless you need to do it all at once. Wide angle and long lens in the same trip. Why not two cameras? You can easily pickup an older 5x7 with a 4x5 back for not much money. It'll handle the long lens stuff better then most 4x5s. Then add a 4x5 camera that handles wide lenses well. Instead of trying to find a dream camera that does everything well.

[Alan Davenport]

Here's another vote for the Tachihara. I use lenses from a 90mm Super Angulon up to a 254mm f/4.5 lens that will cover at least 8x10 with plenty of movement. The Tachihara has enough movement available to exceed the image circle on both (ask me how I know!) so you're not likely to have a problem there. I can focus down to 5 feet with the ten inch lens.

One of the beautiful things about small, lightweight field cameras, is that you can use lighter tripods than you might need for a heavier box. I use a Bogen 3021 with a 3030 head, and haven't had any stability problems. This is the same tripod I use with my 35mm outfit up to 600mm.

The wind problem is endemic to LF. When the wind blows, the bellows wiggles and the picture becomes less sharp. Happens with any camera. You wouldn't want to carry a camera that's rigid enough not to wiggle when the wind blows. Someone mentioned carrying an umbrella; it isn't just for rain. Holding an umbrella to shield the bellows from the breeze works wonders. Still, when the wind reaches a certain point, it just isn't a large format day.

The other camera I'd consider if buying today is the Shen Hao, which offers both a bag bellows and a Graflok back. The Graflock back might be a good thing if you're serious about roll film adapters, as your selection will be better. The Tachihara's spring back is limited (AFAIK) to the Calumet roll adapters, which have their own advantages over Graflok types.

If you want a light monorail, look at Toho.

[John Kasaian]

Al,

IMHO what I think I'll really need and what I really really need are often quite different in light of experience. My advice is to not sweat the details, just get a good working affordable (budget?) camera that looks "comfortable" and that you can imagine yourself using. Any "do-it-all camera will be a compromise and all the models you're considering and all the models suggested here will do what you want----more or less. Spend your money on one good lens, sturdy tripod, film, paper and chemicals and forget about accesories for now, just go out and shoot. Eight or twelve months of hands on experience will tell you the difference between what you really need, what you'd like but don't need, and what you're better off without. You can upgrade if and when neccesary. More important, you'll be honing your skills in the meantime.

One thing about LF that really impresses me is how many interesting portfolios I've come across that were shot with pretty basic gear by very talented photographers.

Good Luck!

[Al D]

I thank everybody for the feedback I have received so far.

Here are my thoughts

- Objective #1 is simply to get in the game and start making photographs. Get a budget Tachihara or Shen Hao. They are light, (a camera that isn't portable doesnt' get used and unused cameras do not make photographs) are sturdy enough, have more than adequate movements for my purposes and it's no big deal to outfit them with a roll film back.

And though it's nice to know that recessed lens boards, bag bellows and bag extensions are available - odds are I won't be needing them. And if I do, it may well be that a used monorail (I think used Sinar A1's cost all of $350 these days) may even be the way to go. In the meantime - I won't sweat it.

- Don't obsess about concerns over wood field camera rigidity. It isn't as bad as I fear, a stout wind is going to pose problems for any camera with a lot of extension anyhow, there are steps I can take to mitigate the effects of wind (e.g. the umbrella trick), and sometimes you just have to wait for the wind to die down or even return to the site later.

- Don't break the bank on the camera. Pick up a good piece of glass (or two) and a light & strudy tripod/with the money saved.

I suspect I'll be pulling the trigger on a new/used Shen Hao and used 85/90 mm and 150mm lenses to start. The rollfilm back remains a must-have and I'll just have to figure out if I can get a used one for $250 or thereabouts...

Thanks again and I'll let you know what I decided when the final decision is made (probably in March).

[Scott Fleming]

Don't forget what that 85mm lense is ACTUALLY going to be the equivalent of with a roll film back.

[Al D]

>>Don't forget what that 85mm lense is ACTUALLY going to be the equivalent of with a roll film back.

Wait, wait I know this one... ;-)

85 mm is pretty close to a normal lens (50 mm in 35 mm and 150 mm at 4X5) in 6x6. It's at the wide end of normal for 6x9.

That, actually, is fine. I think to start with I'll be cutting my teeth in the format with a normal lens in the field and a short-moderate telphoto (guess what that 150mm equates to...) for portratiure.

[David Karp]

Al,

I just purchased a used Titan SF from MPEX, along with the bag bellows. Today was my first chance to take it out for a workout. I used lenses from 125mm to 450mm with ease. It was a very enjoyable experience, and the camera the controls are very intuitive. The camera was rigid at full extension, but not as rigid as my monorail (which is as expected). It was certainly plenty rigid. I am pleased with my purchase. I don't think you could go wrong with the Walker, unless you want something ultralight, which (off the top of my head) means in most cases that you want a camera with less extension, or a Canham DLC.

For what its worth, this is my fourth view camera. The first was a Calumet 45NX (= Cambo SC), followed by a Crown Graphic (for use as an inexpensive field camera), and Cambo 45SF. I am glad I started with the 45NX. It is the camera used as the model in the view camera books by Stone, Simmons, and Shaman. It has lots of movements, is very durable, and is a great camera for learning. In fact, if I did not come up with a fantastic deal on the 45SF, I would probably still use it as my monorail. You could probably pick one up very inexpensively, and sell it for what you paid for it. By using it for a while, you could learn about all the movements. You can decide how important the back movements are to you, or which ones are important to you. This is good experience, because some field cameras have more back movements than do others. For example, the Walker has back focus, shift, swing, and tilt, all of which are important to me and possibly unimportant to you. Additionally, you can backpack (day trips) with the 45NX. I did it for a while, and also did it with the 45NX.

My personal opinion is that the Crown Graphic is a great camera, but despite the fact that many start with these cameras, they are not great for learning about camera movements. There are no back movements, and front movements are very limited. It is a great camera, but it lacks some important features that I like to use. It was a compromise (light and easy to backpack with) that I used until I was able to find and purchase my Walker.

If you have not read them, I agree that the Simmons book and the Stone book are excellent for beginners. Each alone has its strengths, and together they are great.

I hope this helps.

[Al D]

Thanks for the suggestion Dave - I'll take it under consideration. Most of my excursions in the field (at least those I anticipate) would last a day or less - so I suppose I shouldn't rule out a an inexpensive monorail.

What backpack might you recommend for the 45NX? - keeping in mind that I will probably want to stow a couple board-mounted leneses, 8 film holders and (as I do mostly B&W) contrast filters.

[Keith S. Walklet]

FWIW, if you are wavering between the Tachichara and Shen Hao, a while back I owned, and a good friend of mine still owns the Tachihara. I found mine to be anything but sturdy, especially with a heavy lens. My friend had independently found his to suffer from the same problem, but came up with a work-around: purchasing two small plastic Quik-Grip ratchet-style c-clamps at his hardware store. Once he has focused, he uses these two clamps to squeeze the base of the front standard onto the focusing bed, which gains him much more rigidity. The Shen Haos I encountered don't seem to suffer from this problem.

[David Karp]

Al,

I used (and use) a Kelty Redwing 2900. I think it has been replaced by a 3100 (indicates larger size). I think it is available from REI for under $90.

It might be worth mentioning that although the Cambo lensboards are large, it is possible to buy a Cambo to Linhof Technika type adapter board. I found mine used. New, they are pretty expensive. This lets you use a much smaller board, which takes up less space in the pack.