Flame Wars and Civility

[Robert McClure]

Technically speaking, this post is not related directly to LF Photography. Yet it is related to something that might be even more significant. What do you think?

I love the Yiddish word, "mench." I think it means to be a human being. But as I understand its implication it means to have the milk of human kindness, or to be decent, kind, civil. I will add, respectful.

The moderators had to recently block a thread that had gotton very out-of-hand.

I mean, do we talk about LF Photography, and enjoy the freedom to even talk about a wide range of off-topic stuff (like my own comments)? Or do we (a few of us) exploit this wonderful opportunity to try to knock another's lights out? And for what? Because Truth might collapse save for my holding it up by attacking you?

I recall the admonition of attorney Aticus Finch (Gregory Peck) in his 50's film, "To Kill a Mockingbird." He exhorted jurors to be fully human when he urged, "Gentlemen, do your duty!"

I know the exercise of free speech can't always be pleasant, but ...

Robert

[steve simmons]

I once belonged to a model railroad club. The rule was when you walked in the door it did not matter whom you voted for, what you did for a living, etc., etc. We were all there because of a common interest. The difference, I think, between that type of setting and one like this forum , was.is that we had to be face to face with people when we talked to them. I never saw the type of behavior there that we have seen here.

So,lets forget about the past and pretend we have to look at people in the eye when we make a post. It might change our behavior considerably.

steve simmons

[Eric Biggerstaff]

All,

I have to say, I am a bit taken back by some of the posts. There seem to be a few people who want to make mountains out of mole hills, and it is sad.

I joined this forum to have a positive experience discussing LF in hopes to learn and better my knowledge of the subject.

By and large, this has happened, but some of the recent activity has made me rethink my involvement.

I think Steve is right, if we had to face each other it would be a different story, I think the discourse would still be heated at times, but far more civil.

Thanks for the post.

[Richard Schlesinger]

I am, apparently, a minority (in more ways than one) in that I find the 'flame' business highly entertaining. I have found that, underneath it all, there has almost always been a modicum of useful information of one sort or another. All the 'flaming' seemed to take place when there was nothing else to do - and strongly held opinions are harmless, I think, when they are unenforcable.Often ideas appear that would otherwise not have surfaced, and at least some of them seem useful.

I would hate for all this to stop, as it seems that all that will be left is a repetition of much of the same old stuff. Strongly held opinions need to be stated strongly. I did think that the polemic by the gentleman (his name escapes me at the moment) complaining about amateurs etc. was ill thought out and nonsensical along with, apparently, eminating (sp?) from that black hole I refer to as bolviation central. Amateurs, as it has been explained to me, do things for the love of it. Professionals for the money. Of course there are those who mix the two, but if there is no love involved it shows in the work. Photography is a somewhat peculiar profession it would seem, in that the person making a living shooting kiddies in the shopping mall is a professional photographer. And I am not and don't want to be.

[Marko]

Every attempt to limit or regulate any kind of freedom - speech, travel, etc. - severly affect what we do and hence must be of interest to us.

Like I said in one of my posts on that sorry thread, our willingness to accept torture (of others) is in the end going to limit if not curtail altogether our own freedoms. And it is also entirely antithetical to the "Mensch" concept Robert brought up.

Maybe it would serve us well to always remember that while power is the measure of our ability to protect ourselves against the others, the measure of greatness is our ability to protect the others from ourselves. The way I see it, to be "Mensch" is to be both.

Regards,

[Jon Wilson]

I agree with Henry Ambrose when he states on another forum thread that input should be civil... as if you are a guest in another's home.....The Golden Rule should be followed on this forum which in turn hopefully will mitigate/reduce this "Flame/Civility" War. IMO, this forum should be conducted in a manner that allows persons insert their comments/input, but should do so in a civil and constructive manner.

From a constitutional law perspective, the 1st Amendment Rights to Freedom of Speech do not technically apply to this forum given the Bill of Rights (the First 10 Amendments) apply to Federal Government actions and are incorporated to apply to State Government actions through the 14th Amendments' "due process" and "equal protection" clauses. This is a private venture which is not expressly governed by the 1st Amendment Right to Free Speech.

In otherwords, I hardily support the Forum Monitors to take proactive action to delete offensive input. I trust the Forum Monitors to apply their personal, albeit subjective, standard as to what is appropriate. As I believe Justice White stated in a concurring opinion in the 1970's in a decision dealing with defining whether or not a given movie was pornographic, the U.S. Court Justice stated essentially that "pornography" could not be expressly defined, but was in the "eye of the beholder", i.e., "I know it when I see it". Let's hope the Forum Monitors open their eyes and exercise their authority to maintain this LF Forum so as to promote a civil and professional tone which does not slip back to personal/verbal assaults.

[Aaron van de Sande]

Another constitutional concept is freedom of association. This is a privately owned website and the owners may pick and chose who may post here. This is not censorship. I fully support moderation.

[Robert McClure]

Michael,

Thanks for your clarifications. I continue to be amazed and delighted at the range of expertises represented by those within the LF community. And I now know the correct spelling of "Mensch" even. Ha, ha!

Grump,

I can understand your view. I occasionally take in the antics of the Jerry Springer Show - I mean this honestly. That said, I'll have to add that a boxing referee ensures that there are not punches below the belt. A recent thread included some below-the-belt remarks, IMO. That said, I guess free speech can be problematic at times - i.e., it won't always be pleasant for the hearer but perhaps new things can be learned - as you have suggested. Thanks for your comments.

Robert

[Terence McDonagh]

It used to be (and not that long ago) that the craziness was more confined to "off topic" posts. Lately they seem to have crept into the technical ones. I've personally never felt that passionately about a technical issue but apparently some do. What's ironic is that it was while learning black & white photography that I learned that nothing is black & white, but rather shades of grey. And usually betwen Zones III and VIII at that.

As much as I hate the concept, I agree that stuff needs to be selectively pruned. Every forum (gov't, web, political, social) has its rules and when folks don't follow them there need to be consequences. The last few weeks have made me leery of checking this site. I've been using this forum (in all its versions) for many years now, and this is the first period of time where I'm not learning new things about LF photography. I'd rather not lose another great institution to a few miscreants.

[Frank Petronio]

My short experience of moderating the underground Leica forum - a short lived enclave for photo.net refugees - showed me that there are plenty of crazies that get moderated that people never even see. There are random, non-photographers who live to tear up special interest forums. These guys are enough of a headache alone.

As for regulars that are caustic, the best moderation is done by the group itself. Ignore the bastards. They'll drop away.

I'd eliminate the out right pornographic swearing, 100% crazy posts and let the group work organically on the rest.

[steve simmons]

I have often wondered, outloud a few times, whether or not these bullies really want a broader particiaption in a forum like this. To some extent this forum has been taken over by proponents of certain practices and they can be quite hostile to those who might take a more casual approach to life and photography. When I challenged the BTZS approach a couple of weeks ago I came away thinking I had taken on a cult. I shared this thought with a couple of friends who listen in but will not participate and they agreed. They will not participate because of the flames that are spit out much too often. These are very knowledgeable people who could provide a lot of info to people on this forum but they don't need/want the aggrivation of the way some people behave here. I have tried to point this out to some but they have ignored such information. It might be worth an experiment to see if these people are banned for awhile if the number of people participating increases.

I think APUG has done well to take a heavier hand in moderating their forum. Any forum is not a street corner and it is quite permissable to 'censor' if that is the word you want to use, posts which do nothing but vent personal animosities from long ago fights. They are over and done, either move on or stop posting. After the fights a couple of weeks ago it was said that name calling would expose the poster to banishment. Lets carry out that promise.

I will be careful in the future and take the attitude I am a guest in someone else's house and looking at them face to face before I say anything.

steve simmons

[Frank Petronio]

Sean at APUG is a good guy but he can be a bit quick to ban. Which might be why the APUG LF forum isn't as popular as this one.

[Ole Tjugen]

Banning is never done lightly, and has to be "earned" with unusual diligence.

Sean alone is not the one who does the banning, so don't blame him. There's five of us moderators in the main forum, and three more for the subforums.

APUG is about film photography in general, and LF is only a part of it. This forum is about LF in general, and film photography is a part of it. Also this forum was well established before APUG was conceived, and I don't think anyone has ever hoped to "replace" it as the best LF resource on the net.

[Wayne]

I disagree with Frank. think APUG is too conservative in banning people, just like this site. There are certain people who are regularly abusive and yet there they are.

Wayne

[bglick]

These are very knowledgeable people who could provide a lot of info to people on this forum but they don't need/want the aggrivation of the way some people behave here.

I agree Steve, but in the past you were part of that crowd, but remain in denial.

> To some extent this forum has been taken over by proponents of certain practices and they can be quite hostile to those who might take a more casual approach to life and photography.

This has been addressed many times... I think this is a very poor representation of at least the posts I was involved in the past month. The hostility always came as a result of you attacking others who corrected your often vague and poorly presented data. Lets be fair here, they weren't part of a cult, unless it's the cult of, "trying to help others with fundamentaly sound information." If so, give me some of that spiked Kool Aid, as I too am a member of that cult :-)

> After the fights a couple of weeks ago it was said that name calling would expose the poster to banishment.

And equally, IMO, anyone who instigates these problems should also lead to bannishment. I have NEVER followed your methodology of singling out the one who punched the hardest, vs. the one who throws the first punch. Try looking at both sides of the equation.



> I will be careful in the future and take the attitude I am a guest in someone else's house and looking at them face to face before I say anything.

Well, I guess this is the closest you will ever come to admitting some fault, regardless of how many unbiased parties mentioned the instigation from you. So be it, I give you credit for the attempt Steve.

Steve, I have nothing against you....but it bothers me, you still present distorted versions of history. You talk about just forgetting stuff, yet somehow you're the one that keeps bringing up old flames and cleverly defending your position. Hopefully this will be a new begining for everyone, after the LF version of WWIII....or maybe Wrestlemania?

[Jerry Fusselman]

I am really tired of the posting style
You "generalized personal insult #1". You "generalized personal insult #2". You "generalized personal insult #3". You "generalized personal insult #4". ...

[John Boeckeler]

Mr. Fusselman: my thoughts exactly.

[Michael Jones]

Gee Whiz. People have problems being civil in a thread on civility? That seems pretty gloomy for the future.

As someone else mentioned, the guidelines are posted and, as in most facets of life, if one cannot play by the rules, you don’t get to play. Of course, the corollary is that if the guidelines are not enforced, there are no rules and you can do as you please. No thanks. Life is too short and there are too many other sources of information.

[steve simmons]

To WG

Cool. I make a post offering to make a fresh start and then you begin attacking me. We could have moved on fresh but the past seems more interesting to you.

The negative posts from Jorge and Butzi are , to a large exent based on personal issues with me. They just have not been clean about their personal issues.

Now, can we move forward.?

steve simmons

[bglick]

Steve, fresh start? I congratulated you on your attempt of such, please re read my post. Please do not confuse my accurate reflection of history as an attack. Jorge and Butzi have NOTHING to do with my post.

Jerry, if your post is regarding mine, I do not understand it, otherwise I would be gald to comment.

[steve simmons]

"Please do not confuse my accurate reflection of history ...."

This is not agreed upon by everyone/ There are different interpretations of what has gone on.

Can we look forward????

steve simmons

[bglick]

Forward is the ONLY direction we can go!

I look forward to the future....

[Dean Tomasula]

As one who has at times borne the brunt of some very uncivil attacks here, I agree with Steve. We should remember that everyone here has their own opinions, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, and many usually are not shy about making those opinions known. There's nothing wrong with that. As long as it kept to an adult level (which often times it is not), there is no reason why everyone can't get their thoughts out there.

As to correcting wrong information, I welcome it. If something is said that is wrong (not opinion, but fact that is incorrect) it should be corrected. That's how we can learn here.

The problem comes in I think when we get too passionate about the subject. Many of us start to answer emotionally, rather than thinking our answers through and framing them in a civil manner.

It's a new year. We should make a resolution to make believe we're all new here and start from scratch. Forget what has happened and been said in the past and start off with a clean slate.